In the wake of Manhunt 2 receiving an Adult Only rating, Ben Meyer and Rob Wright discuss the changing climate for game ratings in The U.S. and abroad.

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How do you think we should change the ratings system? I'm not sure, but it seems like some changes are in order.

-Ben

Nice report. I think the US ratings system is fine. The real issue in the US is that private companies are banning art (Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft). There is a good argument here that companies should be able to make games compatible with consoles without the manufacturer's license.

The UK ratings system however is seriously flawed because in that case the government has effectively banned the game.

Sometimes I wonder if Rockstar is intentionally stretching the limits with the Man Hunt series to see what they can get away with in GTA. The game itself doesn't look terribly interesting.

I personally do not mind an AO rating any more than an NC17 rating on a movie. Honestly, I do not see it as a "scarlet letter" as you guys put it only because I have watched NC17 rated movies w/o issue. Sure, the market is not large for them, but then that is b/c of their content and not the rating. (Most sit back and do the "unrated" thing now anyway...) but then you also have movies that totally SUCK but push a limit on one are just to GET that "scarlet letter" so that some word of mouth will be generated and ppl will see it.

but I digress...

The rating is not what bothers me. What ticks me off is the double standard that is carried in all forms of media entertainment. Movies can get away with ALOT and still be sold at walmart next to the next spiderman flick or an episode of Barney. Music can have the most vile lyrics and only get an "advisory" sticker on it at best. (much more gets by w/o even that as rarely are the entire albums listened to)...

...but games? Nope, those are for kids. Lock it down.

I feel that the same standard should be held for all of these forms of entertainment. We all (read: ignorant parents, reporters and politicians trying to get a political soapbox) need to understand that movies, music and video games come in forms for all ages. If you are ignorant to assume that just b/c Abel Ferrara's "Bad Lieutenant" is a "movie" and spice1's "AmeriKKKa's Nightmare" is "music" that your 6 year old can listen to or watch it... everyone on this planet would call you an idiot and some government agency would take your kid away and/or lock you up.

Why should it be any different for "games"?

My point is this:

politicians and reporters need to quit bellyaching over this and move on to something genuinely important.

Ratings boards (especially in the UK) need to back down a bit and rate all media based on the audience it is intended for. (which means that AO can be fine, and M and T really need to be for those audiences)

Parents need to get a clue and figure out what their kids are doing. Take back the ground that have been given up. YOU ARE THE ADULTS. you can say "NO" to a game the kid wants. If it is rated "M"... you probably should think twice about letting your 13 year old have it.

Lobyists just need to stop it. (most of them are part of the above clueless parent group) If your kid, or one you know bought a game and you were "shocked" at the content... Then take charge as the adult and clean up their lives! Legislating rules for good parents is not the answer, EDUCATING parents to actually BE good parents IS the answer.

Store owners (small and large) need to keep music, movies and games that are rated for adults out of the hands of unsupervised kids. Snoop Dogg is not for 8 year olds, and neither is Saw or Gears of War to be quite honest. They are all rated WAY above that.

Basically, I believe the system is all there and works just fine (at least here in the US) if all the idiots would just start paying attention and quit whining about how dumb they are.

</my 2 bits>

i would much rather have a violent video game labeled AO.
1st because children shouldnt even be knowing about such games.
2nd an most important:

the creation of these rating systems work both ways.

the esrb provides me with a list, to find only The Most Brutal & Violent of video games to play.

if i want a game to go on a virtual raping spree, all i have to do is call up the ESRB website.

this is also the same with the rating & content system of films an tv shows.

this rating system allows me to tell the DVR to record programs based on ratings & content.
if i want to record only films that have brutal & graphic content such as rape.

they gave us the tools, to do that.

they are much more messed up than anyone has yet realized.

The game makers can simply make changes to the game in order to get it an M rating instead.

IMO if the game sucks who cares what the rating is I won't buy it anyway.

With out going into a rant I agree with a lot of what sojrner posted. I wonder how they come to these conclusions as well.

If parents were responsible and used good judgement we wouldn't even need a rating system.

no game should have any rating.

99.9999% of all humans care nothing for the rating.

a M rating wont stop my neighbors 3 year old son from playing GTA SA (i even played that game with him.

but ratings like M and higher only reduces sales at some stores

(ps most stores will sell you games with any rating no matter what age you are)

This is nonsense. Honestly. People will still play it, but this one will be pirated, not bought. Microsoft loves to jump in to stuff that is none of their business get the hell out of other developers games. This whole new 'Games for windows' heading must die. They won't deal with manhunt 2. Honestly I *wont* buy a game with that heading on it. Unless they get rid of that ugly thing i wont buy a game with it on it.

The fact that they are being so underhanded about the way they deal with this is not on. They should drop it to 17, they just hate Take2. If it wasnt for take 2 we would not have Max Payne. Not that rockstar need the dough but this is completely unfair.

I am willing to bet that you be able to buy manhunt 2 over here in the free world in any pc shop and it will be on display too.

Not that i like manhunt, it is a little TOO screwed up for me.

and see, that was my point earlier... you know what you want to buy and what you don't want to. Mainly b/c you pay attention to what it is you are looking at. (err... or something)

anyway, the ratings help you (and parents) to figure that out (or at least they should if they were given in a fair and balanced way... not sure yet if that is happening)

censoring and/or banning does not accomplish this. If anything it causes more hype and (as mentioned above) more theft. (movies and music are in that spot too)

education and responsible parents are the only real way to make everything work.

Rock on.

exactly

I completely agree with sojrner.

If people try and control the media they will only encourage resentment toward censorship. Rather than trying to control the world, they should be helping to inform and educate parents. Afterall, until age 18, the parents are (legally) responsible for a child's actions. It is the children who are deprived of any structure or accountability that end up being the tragedy on the front page.

Whether it's suicide or a massacre, the parents are absolved of responsibility. And the ignorant masses are happy to blame the games rather than admitting the part they played in doing nothing to prevent it.

THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE ESRB. The problem is the parents who wont take the time to review the media. The ESRB has made it as simple as possible. If you wish to know the exact nature of a specific title, it's on the box (or esrb.org).

Sorry if this whole post seemed like reiteration.

I think it is refreshing to see that it is not just the presence of a female nipple that is igniting fear in the hearts and minds of Americans and Europeans. 8O

They are actually afraid of violence for a change.

word.

to all of you reading that have kids. Stay involved in their lives. Don't let the TV and computer be their main source of interaction. Play games WITH them. Take them to ball games. Hang out with them. They are too valuable to let go of.

if you do not (yet) have kids, then when you do make sure they are your focus.

absentee parenting is the root of all the worlds current problems. In all countries. Not saying to smother your kids, but don't let them get too far away either.

If we do not take the time for our children, we are then but one generation away from destruction.

I am not trying to make this a (really) heavy thread here. Just adding (more) focus on the real problem. That is the end of my heaviness. I will be light and cheery from now on.

And remember, corporal punishment is a GOOD thing.

Beat your kids.

Beat them good.

I'm a bit confused about the opinion of Ben Meyer and Rob Wright. They do not state that they are against the rating of Manhunt 2, but their tone indicates that they are (Scarlet letter ratings) (Surprised of the controversy).

My impression is that they are crying hypocrisy in regard to the rating system. It is also my impression that Ben and Rob like these kinds of games. With that in mind it is conceivable that they come across as being 'offended' by the rating of Manhunt 2. Hypocrisy is a part of the human condition and can be found everywhere. "Many of us believe that wrongs aren't wrong if it's done by nice people like ourselves." ~Author Unknown

It is my humble opinion that most people do not like the content found in Manhunt 2 and other violent games. The industry is just now coming to grips with this, due to the fact that males 15 to 35 drive sales of this content. Everyone else is becoming aware of these games and are applying political pressure. (No surprise on my part)

I'm all for ratings and the enforcement of them, but i think it's dumb that companies won't carry the games. I think there should be more adult only games. I can't stand the freakin whiny ass little voices over comms. It'd be awesome if there were more AO games and it'd be awesome if dumb ass parents would pay attention to what their kids are playing for a change. No kid should be playing a game where you run around beating up hookers. WTF kind of parent lets their kids play, or even see that kind of thing... I personally don't like the GTA series though so I'm in the minority i guess. But I love some violent games like Gears of War. That's crazy with gore, and I don't think little kids should be playing it, but i should be able to.

IMO though it is the pressure that is unwarranted. So what if there is "objectionable" content. That is what the ratings are for. Just like movies and music, if you don't like that stuff simply look at the rating and don't buy it.

No political pressure is needed here any more than on a movie like Hostel. (which is none)

Well, here's my position: http://www.twitchguru.com/2007/06/25/mmr/

But to summarize, my feeling is that 1) I find it hard to believe that Manhunt 2 is worse in terms of violence than the first Manhunt (which I didn't like) or any other ultra violent game out there today, 2) the ESRB standards for rating games are not consistent 3) we do need an Adults Only rating for games, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to have AO games made for an adult audience next to impossible to find while M-rated games are available in every store for kids to buy? No, it doesn't.

What interested me most about this decision was the ESRB gave the AO rating to a violent game rather than a game with explicit sexual content as it had in the past.

Echoing others in this thread, I think it is up to parents ultimately and ratings can help them make more informed decisions.

The AO rating however is different from the others (despite restrictions very similar to an M rating) in that it is not used to help someone make a choice, but to censor the title.

Everything else aside, scary movies and games freak me out anyway. I'd rather Viva Pinata.

While i agree with a little of what everyone has said I want to look at it a little differenlty.

GTA is a fun game (notice game). It is not meant for kids and should be AO rated. There is no reason for anyone younger than 18 to be playing this game. This is the fault of the parents not the game maker or store. Your kids are your business. If Johnny can go by Dave's house and play it but you disallow it at your house then Johnny shouldn't be going to David's at all.

Manhunt in and of itself is just about cruelty and violence. There is no point to it no reasoning and no good in it. And I am guessing the second game will be more of the same X 2. Stop questioning if the game is violent enough or if there are boobs in it. Just like any of the postal games there has to be a stopping point for game makers. No one adult or child should enjoy some of the sheer cruelty there is in some games. And game makers are pushing it calling it art. How many people out there would like to play "Jeffrey Dahmer" the game. I know there are people out there who would probably give it a chance. I don't want to know those people.

I don't want people telling me i cannot play a game or read a book or watch a movie. But there should be a limit to what the game makers are allowed to create. Do you think that pedofiles should be able to write books about their fantasies? Would that be art? What if rapists decided to make a game where you co do what they dreamed of? What we need is more human beings and less people who don't think. Parents need to take responsibility. My son and daughter will be playing games it is just a fact. But they will not be playing anything that I (notice the I) don't think is appropriate.

About the opinion of Ben Meyer and Rob Wright. I believe you have your opinions. But most games don't have over the top violence to anything but aliens or something not of this world. In Gears you can take your gun and saw an alien in half. Know any aliens that you can call and say "hey they are messing with your people...they are racists because they wouldn't do that to a human". No. Most game makers don't take violence very far in terms of humans or animals. GTA is one of the few that probably has too much violence and shouldn't be available in store. Yes beat me with your opinion stick but these games whether you want to believe it or not are affecting us and our kids. But it is everything. The movies are way over the top in terms of violence and nudity and language. Why isn't someone beaching about them? Have you read any books lately. That is where the violence is. But again there are no rapists/pedophiles writing books. And books don't have warnings or rating systems on them. Why? Because you have to read and use your imagination. Music today is filled with violence and hate and language that would make sailors blush. But you can buy it and listen at just about any age.

I don't blame video games for humanities woes i blame us. But i still believe there should be a limit to the kind of violence people can interact with.

Sorry long rant. Now you can pummel me.