System Builder Marathon: The $4,500 Super PC
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- Performance
Last response: in Reviews comments
Crashman
October 28, 2008 5:50:03 AM
This month's System Builder Marathon spreads the system prices out even further to $4,500, $1,500, and $500. Is today’s $4,500 system really worth three times as much as an upper-mainstream performance machine?
System Builder Marathon: The $4,500 Super PC : Read more
System Builder Marathon: The $4,500 Super PC : Read more
More about : system builder marathon 500 super
cjdavis7
October 28, 2008 6:07:56 AM
Duncan NZ
October 28, 2008 6:20:48 AM
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Duncan NZI'd drop Neweggs name lots if they gave me a $4500 system
Just to clarify, all of the hardware goes straight back to NewEgg once the story is done. The arrangement simply gives us access to the hardware, straight from e-tail, to build, benchmark, and write about. It's good for us because we're saved the effort of finding manufacturers who want to send out their hardware and we think it's good for our readers because we can construct the systems we'd *really* build on these budgets. =)
Score
12
master9716
October 28, 2008 7:21:08 AM
master97164500 . Why would anyone spend 800 on a case? I dont really see a point to the article but oh well . New egg does have the best prices out there but mwave does beat it sometimes.
Why would anyone spend $500 on a video card or $1,000 on a processor? ;-)
This is why we do three stories with a trio of price targets--something for everyone!
Score
10
neiroatopelcc
October 28, 2008 7:54:18 AM
neiroatopelcc
October 28, 2008 8:12:58 AM
We should also note that the on-board Intel controller is capable of excellent RAID 5 performance
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I am not thrilled by the intel raid controller. Perhaps the ich10 is better than the ich9 in this regard, but I only scored about 90mb/sec max read speed in raid5 (5x500gb) on my p35. That's the same speed as my 3x 35gb raptors in raid 0 on my secondary system, so it's okay. But still. A single new spinpoint is faster than the raid 5, so I'm quite sure my ich9r controller is requiring too many resources to work properly fast. Or it's my oc that causes it to slow down somehow. Dunno yet.
Anyway, my experience with intel software raid running raid5 isn't that it's speedy.
ps. wouldn't it have made sense to save a few bucks on storage (2x1,5tb or something) and added memory cooling blocks to go with the water cooled chassis?
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I am not thrilled by the intel raid controller. Perhaps the ich10 is better than the ich9 in this regard, but I only scored about 90mb/sec max read speed in raid5 (5x500gb) on my p35. That's the same speed as my 3x 35gb raptors in raid 0 on my secondary system, so it's okay. But still. A single new spinpoint is faster than the raid 5, so I'm quite sure my ich9r controller is requiring too many resources to work properly fast. Or it's my oc that causes it to slow down somehow. Dunno yet.
Anyway, my experience with intel software raid running raid5 isn't that it's speedy.
ps. wouldn't it have made sense to save a few bucks on storage (2x1,5tb or something) and added memory cooling blocks to go with the water cooled chassis?
Score
0
neiroatopelcc
October 28, 2008 8:35:59 AM
"2.) The Cooler Master CMPSU-1000HX power supply has ferrite rings on the flat, removable PCI Expresshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express power cables that prevented them from being run between cards. We had to use the soldered-on "round" cables for the top card."
it's still a corsair psu according to the picture. (page 6)
@ randomizer : If you'd replace the 4 drives with 2 bigger ones you'd only lose 1tb of storage, and half your theoretical read/write speed (and slightly improve your seek time). Anyway, if memory is running hot I would definetly want some cooling for it. My first choice would be to throw away the sound card and see if 90 bucks was enough for a decent cooler (onboard sound is excellent really), but since toms is rather happy about the sound, I think storage is the best place to compromise.
Anyway, my point is - add a cooler to the modules! actually ocz already have models out there with watercooling built in - since they picked ocz they could've gotten those if newegg had em.
Score
2
neiroatopelccrandomizer : If you'd replace the 4 drives with 2 bigger ones you'd only lose 1tb of storage, and half your theoretical read/write speed (and slightly improve your seek time).
Oh yes, sorry I missed the 1.5TB that you mentioned in your previous post. I seem to be blinded to things in brackets, yet ironically I use brackets alot.EDIT: Can somebody remove the first two comments?
Score
1
Shadow703793
October 28, 2008 10:29:06 AM
I'm not sure I would run half that comp on a 500W PSU, which is essentially what you are doing with a Corsair 1000HX. I'm a big fan of Corsair, but the 2 VERY distinct 12V rails make me nervous here. It's an incredibly robust PSU, but I would feel better, if I were building it, using the Silverstone 1200W.
It's a shame you couldn't have included this new vapor chamber tech ATI is adopting. Time marches on I guess and there will always be some new thing.
It's a shame you couldn't have included this new vapor chamber tech ATI is adopting. Time marches on I guess and there will always be some new thing.
Score
-4
neiroatopelcc
October 28, 2008 10:54:48 AM
ProximonI'm not sure I would run half that comp on a 500W PSU, which is essentially what you are doing with a Corsair 1000HX. I'm a big fan of Corsair, but the 2 VERY distinct 12V rails make me nervous here. It's an incredibly robust PSU, but I would feel better, if I were building it, using the Silverstone 1200W.It's a shame you couldn't have included this new vapor chamber tech ATI is adopting. Time marches on I guess and there will always be some new thing.
What is the problem with running half the system on a 500W rail? My system at home (conroe @ 1.6v, 7xsata 2xide, 4870 & fans) could make do with something like 550w total according to the online psu calculator, so I'm sure a 500w rail would be plenty for 'half a system'
Score
5
warezme
October 28, 2008 11:17:47 AM
Its a very nice build. I like it.
However, its useful to note that this build comes at the heels of the release of X58 platforms with mobo manufacture's already demo'ing retail to near retail packages and the shipment of Nehalem chips a couple of months or less away, its going to make this $4500 build obsolete. While there is always something new around the corner, this isnt just an extra doo dad added to an existing platform but a completely new platform non compatible with the current line of chips.
Its a big deal. Its also very likely GPU companies will release revamped special edition cards to go with all those shiny new icore chips, likely leaving those 4870's behind.
However, its useful to note that this build comes at the heels of the release of X58 platforms with mobo manufacture's already demo'ing retail to near retail packages and the shipment of Nehalem chips a couple of months or less away, its going to make this $4500 build obsolete. While there is always something new around the corner, this isnt just an extra doo dad added to an existing platform but a completely new platform non compatible with the current line of chips.
Its a big deal. Its also very likely GPU companies will release revamped special edition cards to go with all those shiny new icore chips, likely leaving those 4870's behind.
Score
0
Seems like the total max load on this machine would be around 800W. So, you would want to balance the load just right so that you stayed around 400W per rail... Actually, the Corsair tested as 85% efficient in that range, so I guess that leaves me with the margin I would want.
If Corsair wants to approve this PSU for quad crossfire, and they do, with the 5 year warranty and service to back it up, that's good enough.
if it doesn't last 5 years... you get a new one
If Corsair wants to approve this PSU for quad crossfire, and they do, with the 5 year warranty and service to back it up, that's good enough.
if it doesn't last 5 years... you get a new one
Score
0
geok1ng
October 28, 2008 11:56:36 AM
Nothing wrong with the Corsair 1000w- it has been used on TRI SLI 280s without problems, the parts used are actually rated at 600w+ on each rail and Corsair support is amazing to say the least.
i dont like the idea of using a RAID 5 solution- write times are bad, recovery time is too big and with large drives there is a real chance that an error during recovery will make the whole array unusable. I went with a RAID 0 system drive and an external drive for dayly drive image backup. the intel approach for RAID 10 (instead of the 0+1 mentioned) is also great: mirror first and stripe later, and it works with an uneven number of drives: just createc a RAID1 setup with more than 2 drives on the Intel RAID manager.
I would also point out that the "new" Asus sound card with HD audio/HDMI 1.3a support is already available for sale in the USA, so choosing a last generation sound card for a $4500 system at least strange.
last but not least : running DDR3 at CAS 8/1333Mhz will make the system actually SLOWER than currunt top end DDR2 based results, even at 8GB! P45 is THE king in the pre Nehalem era.
i dont like the idea of using a RAID 5 solution- write times are bad, recovery time is too big and with large drives there is a real chance that an error during recovery will make the whole array unusable. I went with a RAID 0 system drive and an external drive for dayly drive image backup. the intel approach for RAID 10 (instead of the 0+1 mentioned) is also great: mirror first and stripe later, and it works with an uneven number of drives: just createc a RAID1 setup with more than 2 drives on the Intel RAID manager.
I would also point out that the "new" Asus sound card with HD audio/HDMI 1.3a support is already available for sale in the USA, so choosing a last generation sound card for a $4500 system at least strange.
last but not least : running DDR3 at CAS 8/1333Mhz will make the system actually SLOWER than currunt top end DDR2 based results, even at 8GB! P45 is THE king in the pre Nehalem era.
Score
3
fahdriyami
October 28, 2008 12:27:30 PM
kelfen
October 28, 2008 12:39:49 PM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
instead of the 4tb : / I duno If I even come close to half a tb waste of money if ya ask me unless your a highly addictive to downloading stuff but even then it is hard
instead of the 4tb : / I duno If I even come close to half a tb waste of money if ya ask me unless your a highly addictive to downloading stuff but even then it is hard
Score
-5
neiroatopelcc
October 28, 2008 12:44:48 PM
kelfenhttp://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6820146799instead of the 4tb : / I duno If I even come close to half a tb waste of money if ya ask me unless your a highly addictive to downloading stuff but even then it is hard
You're saying that people who use more than 500gb disk is a highly addictive downloader?
I've got over 3tb of data at home, and I've only got a 2mbit/512kbit internet line. How much do you think I'm downloading ? No sire. In this modern world where any game or productivity title takes up space in gigabyte notation 500 is actually a rather small number.
Score
1
randomizer4TB does sound pretty sweet, but I don't know how I'd fill up 500GB let alone 8x that. E-peen I guess.
Easy- you record HD video with your computer. Uncompressed, full-bitrate 1920x1080p HD video takes up 19 GB/hour. A 500 GB HDD has about 465 GB of space, which would let you record about 24 hours of video. That's about 8 to 10 movies, which is ridiculously small for a DVR. Even heavily-compressed HD signals that cable and satellite companies like to send out are still something like 8 GB/hour. 500 GB would be a little small as you could record 58 hours of video. 500 GB would be fine if you only record SD stuff, though as that is more like 2 GB/hour and 500 GB would give you about 230 hours of recording time, which is quite a bit.
Score
0
kelfen
October 28, 2008 12:52:59 PM
TeraMedia
October 28, 2008 12:57:42 PM
radguy
October 28, 2008 12:59:21 PM
antiacid
October 28, 2008 1:02:19 PM
TeraMedia: If I remember correctly, there's a thread in the forums right now with someone wondering why his 4x 64g SSD raid0 array isn't really that fast. Apparently, the benchmarks are biased and the speed increase isn't as high as you'd expect (especially in writes).
Although, maybe the parts were unavailable at newegg
Although, maybe the parts were unavailable at newegg
Score
0
neiroatopelcc
October 28, 2008 1:26:33 PM
zenmaster
October 28, 2008 1:27:43 PM
one-shot
October 28, 2008 1:31:17 PM
It was a great article, and yet, everyone is trying to critique it. Tom's can build 1000 pc's and people will still complain. If you really don't like it, you first choice would be to make your own website and start building your own PC's. Not everyone games, some people use their pc's as media servers.
Score
3
bourgeoisdude
October 28, 2008 1:40:03 PM
Great article. Still waiting for feedback on system cases that the author hinted at...I am pretty good at researching other components but know very little about cases since I'm using the same ugly off-white colored case since 2000. I actually find it quite comical as do others who see my rig...
I'm also very interested to see what $500 system Tom's will come up with.
I'm also very interested to see what $500 system Tom's will come up with.
Score
0
itadakimasu
October 28, 2008 1:46:53 PM
$800 on a case is a little steep. Why not get 2 velociraptors (300gb) in raid 0 for boot/programs and use the 4tb just as storage?
Newegg! I'm a regular, I'll gladly build an expensive computer and advertise it if you give me the parts for free ! I will even aptly name my computer i build the shell-shockaaaa!
Newegg! I'm a regular, I'll gladly build an expensive computer and advertise it if you give me the parts for free ! I will even aptly name my computer i build the shell-shockaaaa!
Score
-3
neiroatopelcc
October 28, 2008 1:57:06 PM
itadakimasu$800 on a case is a little steep. Why not get 2 velociraptors (300gb) in raid 0 for boot/programs and use the 4tb just as storage?Newegg! I'm a regular, I'll gladly build an expensive computer and advertise it if you give me the parts for free ! I will even aptly name my computer i build the shell-shockaaaa!
Remember the case comes with water cooling built in. I'm sure they could've saved quite a bit by using their homebrew water cooling, but as the article mentioned, they were limited to neweggs offerings.
800 for a complete case with liquid cooling really isn't that expensive. It sure isn't cheap, but it's easy.
It's like paying someone to do your car servicing for you. It's not free, but its very convenient, and likely done properly.
Score
1
Wheat_Thins
October 28, 2008 2:38:12 PM
Wheat_Thins
October 28, 2008 2:39:06 PM
cjdavis7
October 28, 2008 4:10:40 PM
cangelini
Thanks for the response. I have no problem with partnerships with commercial companies if it helps you write a better article. I have read several of these System Builder articles over the years and always appreciate your insight on the tradeoffs between performance and practicality at the various pricepoints. And Newegg is certainly a fantastic resource! I just would have preferred a longer description and acknowlegement of their contribution at the beginning of the article. Then focusing on the computer for the rest of it rather than another reference to Newegg on what felt like every page. Seems like product placement. If that's what you have to do then fine, that's the economic reality and I understand that. Just offering my preference. Thanks!
Score
1
bf2gameplaya
October 28, 2008 5:04:47 PM
That case is obnoxious. For 800, it better be a passive cooled silent case with no fans, no pumps, no tubes, no leaks, no condensation, no corrosion, no water anywhere.
Not to mention, that tacky white logo plastered on it? I thought it was a Fatal1ty case or a second. Not the cross marketing connection they were hoping for I think, yuck!
Not to mention, that tacky white logo plastered on it? I thought it was a Fatal1ty case or a second. Not the cross marketing connection they were hoping for I think, yuck!
Score
-3
Crashman
October 28, 2008 5:41:06 PM
geok1ngI would also point out that the "new" Asus sound card with HD audio/HDMI 1.3a support is already available for sale in the USA, so choosing a last generation sound card for a $4500 system at least strange.
Show me where it's for sale? It's certainly not for sale at Newegg. And if you have to wait a few days from today to find one "In Stock", you'll have to explain to me how anyone could have gotten one a couple weeks earlier...since assembly and testing (including benchmarks) takes at least a week.
Score
2
Crashman
October 28, 2008 5:44:50 PM
kelfenhttp://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6820146799instead of the 4tb : / I duno If I even come close to half a tb waste of money if ya ask me unless your a highly addictive to downloading stuff but even then it is hard
Uh, d00d, those are still 2GB modules. Putting four of them in the system would have likely resulted in these not running at rated speed and timings without added cooling. So your choice solves notyhing.
The problem with added cooling is that the builder wanted a relatively quiet system, but couldn't find a good substitute for the Antec Spotcool fan used previously. Most RAM coolers are noisey.
Score
0
Crashman
October 28, 2008 5:48:24 PM
one-shotIt was a great article, and yet, everyone is trying to critique it. Tom's can build 1000 pc's and people will still complain. If you really don't like it, you first choice would be to make your own website and start building your own PC's. Not everyone games, some people use their pc's as media servers.
Feedback is critical, though the site prefers suggestions to complaints. Any suggestion that's phrased in the form of a complaint is still acceptable!
Score
0
norwedsh
October 28, 2008 5:58:25 PM
Crashman
October 28, 2008 6:04:18 PM
bf2gameplayaThat case is obnoxious. For 800, it better be a passive cooled silent case with no fans, no pumps, no tubes, no leaks, no condensation, no corrosion, no water anywhere.Not to mention, that tacky white logo plastered on it? I thought it was a Fatal1ty case or a second. Not the cross marketing connection they were hoping for I think, yuck!
It's a metalic silver screen print, but that doesn't show well in photos
If you'd ever tried the case you might understand why those who have like it so much, regardless.It is overpriced at $800. The team couldn't use lower prices found elsewhere due to the obvious connection to a single vendor.
Score
0
Crashman
October 28, 2008 6:05:39 PM
norwedshWhat's the point of having so much memory if you can't address over 4 GB's? It's not like they're running a 64 bit CPU. I know Linux will, but who cares? Will Linux run Fallout 3?
Yeh, 64-bit CPU and 64-bit OS. With 4GB being the target for $1000+ systems, 8GB sounded like a good starting point for a $4000+ system.
Score
0
norwedsh
October 28, 2008 6:18:37 PM
Crashman
I'm in the planning stages of building a HTPC, I considered maxing the memory, until I realized that anything over 4 gigs won't be addressed. I also considered going 64 bit all the way, but, I've had problems running games on 64 bit Windows in the past. Whether that's still the case today - I don't know and I'm not willing to pay to find out. 4 gigs is adequate.
Score
-1
anartik
October 28, 2008 6:27:54 PM
To some of the previous posts... I too was once a NewEgg bigot and have bought a lot from them over the years. However NewEgg has taken the all to familiar path of successful (r)etailers i.e they have gotten full of themselves and don't put much effort into competing anymore price wise and have gotten redicuous, in many cases, on shipping. I have started shopping around a lot more and the result is I am spending more money at other places where I get better prices, shipping and often better return/defect policies i.e. egg's dead pixel policy, restocking charges for defect/crap returns and manufacturer only warranty on some items.
This article is good (I won't argue about what I might have done different) and the simulated real world buying idea is good but it just means we have to hear plugs for NewEgg. The hardware sites live on advertising and I guess its better to have NewEgg advertising than it is to have hardware articles/reviews biased by advertising money paid (or other consideration) by the manufacturer of that hardware.
This article is good (I won't argue about what I might have done different) and the simulated real world buying idea is good but it just means we have to hear plugs for NewEgg. The hardware sites live on advertising and I guess its better to have NewEgg advertising than it is to have hardware articles/reviews biased by advertising money paid (or other consideration) by the manufacturer of that hardware.
Score
1
Crashman
October 28, 2008 6:28:51 PM
norwedsh said:
I'm in the planning stages of building a HTPC, I considered maxing the memory, until I realized that anything over 4 gigs won't be addressed. I also considered going 64 bit all the way, but, I've had problems running games on 64 bit Windows in the past. Whether that's still the case today - I don't know and I'm not willing to pay to find out. 4 gigs is adequate.All of the test programs ran under 64-bit Windows, even those that only supported 32-bit mode. Some of the benchmark executables written by the Tom's Hardware team didn't run, but that's a limittation of the custom-written files, not a limitation of the programs they were meant to assess.
Score
1
zenmaster
October 28, 2008 6:30:12 PM
cjdavis7
And the think I like about the "NewEgg" partnership is that it does not require them to seem to favor particular hardware. If they had "partnered" with Dell, HP, Intel, AMD, Gigabyte, ASUS, etc...
Then there is a situation where THG may feel obligated to show some favoratism. In this case, the actual products being reviewed are not being restricted to any one manufacturer.
I think whoever thought this up was really on the ball.
Score
3
itadakimasu
October 28, 2008 6:35:44 PM
Newegg is great... They have the best prices out there and fast shipping too. The only time i've paid more than $5 for shipping was for a printer ( for the office ) which is understandable. Even w\ $30 shipping the total price was still lower than anywhere else that had the same printer.
Newegg has never failed me... I've bought tons of stuff from them, especially in the past year and have always been more than satisfied with my purchases.
regarding the amount of ram... 8gb of ddr3 should be more than enough. if you're not running at least 2gb ram in your system, you need to upgrade.
Newegg has never failed me... I've bought tons of stuff from them, especially in the past year and have always been more than satisfied with my purchases.
regarding the amount of ram... 8gb of ddr3 should be more than enough. if you're not running at least 2gb ram in your system, you need to upgrade.
Score
0
power122
October 28, 2008 8:14:46 PM
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