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DDR3 faster and more energy efficient than DDR2

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October 24, 2006 12:33:32 PM

http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/itnews.php?tid=687974&starttime=0&endtime=0

Quote:
DDR3 has a better Bandwitdh per watt. Comparing to DDR2-800, DDR3-800/1067/1333 use only 72%, 83%, and 95% of power. DDR3 is more power saving at the same time it enhanced the bandwidth.


Quote:
Taking DDR3-1066 (7-7-7), DDR3-1333 (8-8-8), and DDR3-1600 (9-9-9) as examples, we need to count the clock speed in order to calculate the CAS Latency, and the results are 13.125ns, 12ns, and 11.25ns. They get 25% faster.


Also, people are allready playing with DDR3.
October 24, 2006 12:49:20 PM

Beutiful and all but, how much will it cost me?
October 24, 2006 12:59:54 PM

Quote:
According to a report concerning DDR3 Volume & Pricing Forecast relative to DDR2 from iSuppli, DDR3 would only share 10% of the market in 2007 where its price is 50%higher than DDR2. In 2008, it’s better. DDR3 would rise to 25% of the market share and its price would drop to a similar price of DDR2. Finally, DDR3 is expected to be the main technology in 2009.

http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/itnews.php?tid=687974&starttime=0&endtime=0
Related resources
October 24, 2006 1:03:34 PM

Thanks for that. Now I know where to allocate some of my budget to.
October 24, 2006 1:11:37 PM

IMO it is too early to think about DDR3 now. Next year, might be a different story.
October 24, 2006 1:17:26 PM

Did you guys notice the ULTRA High latenceys... Seems like with every step forward, they take a step back . . .
October 24, 2006 1:18:00 PM

You could say the same about PCIe 2.0 since the PCIe bus isn't even being used to its full capacity right now, but yeah, I'll agree that it's still a long way off from becoming mainstream.
October 24, 2006 1:22:08 PM

Quote:
Did you guys notice the ULTRA High latenceys... Seems like with every step forward, they take a step back . . .

Why don't you read the whole article before you make a wrong conclusion?
The real time latency will be reduced compared to DDR2.
Pay attention on this part:

Quote:
Regarding with the CAS Latency, Kim Gyou Joong, Senior Engineer, Samsung Electronics Corporation, said all of the DDR2-533 (CL 4-4-4), DDR2-667 (CL 5-5-5) and DDR2-800 (CL6-6-6) have 15ns latency according to JEDEC. CAS Latency (CL) is the time (in number of clock cycles) that elapses after the memory controller sends a request to read a memory location and before the data is sent to the module's output pins. As CAS Latency only specifies the delay between the request and the first bit, the clock speed specifies the latency between bits. Thus, when reading bursts of data, a higher clock speed can be faster in practice, even with a worse CAS Latency.

Taking DDR3-1066 (7-7-7), DDR3-1333 (8-8-8), and DDR3-1600 (9-9-9) as examples, we need to count the clock speed in order to calculate the CAS Latency, and the results are 13.125ns, 12ns, and 11.25ns. They get 25% faster. So we should bear in mind that CAS Latency is not related to CL only, but also the clock speed.
October 24, 2006 1:44:43 PM

My bad.... I'm lazy :oops: 
October 24, 2006 1:55:54 PM

Seven Deadly Sins
* Lust
* Gluttony
* Greed / Avarice
* Sloth / Laziness
* Wrath
* Envy
* Pride
October 24, 2006 1:56:22 PM

Since when was cost ever an issue for you? :tongue:
October 24, 2006 2:01:45 PM

Never been 8) :p 
Hey, I can't blow all my money, even if I can afford to take the hit. Good money skill are important to develop.
October 24, 2006 2:11:21 PM

One, check who you reply to.
Two, its as valid information as posting AMD's market share
Three, sod off.
October 24, 2006 2:19:19 PM

Very nice indeed.But I guess price does play a role in most everyday purchases,so ya,how much will it cost???Any ideals???TY for posting this info anyways.Nice to see what's up and coming.Goodluck.

Dahak

AMD X2-4400+@2.4 S-939
EVGA NF4 SLI MB
2X7800GT IN SLI
2X1GIG DDR IN DC MODE
WD300GIG HD
EXTREME 19IN.MONITOR 1280X1024
ACE 520WATT PSU
COOLERMASTER MINI R120
October 24, 2006 3:30:56 PM

Apparently you are not smart enough to read the sod off notice.
By the way using "????" "!!!!" qualifies at 1337, so be ready for the flames appropriate to such actions.
Quote:
Telling people DDR3 is faster than DDR2 is going to affect market share??
If anyone didnt already know that, they need a head check.

And you hordesters posting things such as, "AMD not to backdown" is any more worthy of being in this section?
Once again, sod off.
October 24, 2006 3:40:55 PM

Aaah yes, but as the DDR2 process matures, we're getting 1Ghz DDR2 with CL 5-5-5 timings instead of 800Mhz DDR2 with CL 6-6-6 timings. And that's not even counting the newest Corsair Dominator series @ 1.1Ghz and ridiculous CL 4-4-4 timings.

So the problem with latencies is that the mature, older process will probably always beat the newest process. It was that way with DDR1 -> DDR2 and this seems to be repeating itself.

It's funny that integrating the memory controllers directly opposes the problem that DDRx transitions cause. IMCs reduce latencies, while DDRx transitions aren't good for overall latencies...
October 24, 2006 4:21:35 PM

Quote:
Aaah yes, but as the DDR2 process matures, we're getting 1Ghz DDR2 with CL 5-5-5 timings instead of 800Mhz DDR2 with CL 6-6-6 timings. And that's not even counting the newest Corsair Dominator series @ 1.1Ghz and ridiculous CL 4-4-4 timings.

So the problem with latencies is that the mature, older process will probably always beat the newest process. It was that way with DDR1 -> DDR2 and this seems to be repeating itself.

It's funny that integrating the memory controllers directly opposes the problem that DDRx transitions cause. IMCs reduce latencies, while DDRx transitions aren't good for overall latencies...

Agree :wink:
a b à CPUs
October 24, 2006 4:30:18 PM

Quote:
Did you guys notice the ULTRA High latenceys... Seems like with every step forward, they take a step back . . .

Why don't you read the whole article before you make a wrong conclusion?
The real time latency will be reduced compared to DDR2.
Pay attention on this part:

Quote:
Regarding with the CAS Latency, Kim Gyou Joong, Senior Engineer, Samsung Electronics Corporation, said all of the DDR2-533 (CL 4-4-4), DDR2-667 (CL 5-5-5) and DDR2-800 (CL6-6-6) have 15ns latency according to JEDEC. CAS Latency (CL) is the time (in number of clock cycles) that elapses after the memory controller sends a request to read a memory location and before the data is sent to the module's output pins. As CAS Latency only specifies the delay between the request and the first bit, the clock speed specifies the latency between bits. Thus, when reading bursts of data, a higher clock speed can be faster in practice, even with a worse CAS Latency.

Taking DDR3-1066 (7-7-7), DDR3-1333 (8-8-8), and DDR3-1600 (9-9-9) as examples, we need to count the clock speed in order to calculate the CAS Latency, and the results are 13.125ns, 12ns, and 11.25ns. They get 25% faster. So we should bear in mind that CAS Latency is not related to CL only, but also the clock speed.


He's trying to sell you the DDR-3. lol.

DDR-3 does have higher latency but since it's clock speeds are higher, it make up for it as he stated in this line...
Each step forward we take more latency is added but higher clocks are achievable to make up for it.

It's the same with GDDR2 vs GDDR3 on graphics cards.
October 24, 2006 4:39:48 PM

Will DDR3 use the same socket as DDR2?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 24, 2006 5:57:31 PM

Most likely not, haven't reasearched but it will use less voltage so there would probably be some 'frying' involved if running at DDR2 voltage.

Thats why they probably will key it differently
October 24, 2006 6:12:20 PM

Quote:
Most likely not, haven't reasearched but it will use less voltage so there would probably be some 'frying' involved if running at DDR2 voltage.

Thats why they probably will key it differently


well, after I asked the question I did some research and got the results, So Yes Intel's Bearlake chipest will support both DDR2 as well as DDR3. But now my question is HOW? as beacuase DDR3 uses less voltage as in OP post's link. Below are two links from which I got the information.

1. Intel "Bearlake" Plans Unveiled
2. Bearlake Info From HKEPC
October 24, 2006 6:30:33 PM

Quote:
According to a report concerning DDR3 Volume & Pricing Forecast relative to DDR2 from iSuppli, DDR3 would only share 10% of the market in 2007 where its price is 50%higher than DDR2. In 2008, it’s better. DDR3 would rise to 25% of the market share and its price would drop to a similar price of DDR2. Finally, DDR3 is expected to be the main technology in 2009.

http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/itnews.php?tid=687974&starttime=0&endtime=0

Hopefully they won't intro DDR4 before 2009. This changing RAM all the time is worse then changing sockets. It looks at least like we won't have the real drop in latency like DDR-DDR2.

They (price fixing DRAM manuf) need to just stick with this and make it better rather than jumping to a new one before this becomes mature. I mean it's not like they get a cut of mobo sales everytime someone has to replace one for new RAM....is it?

I know there is GDDR4 now in GPUs (X1950)
October 24, 2006 6:39:58 PM

GDDR and DDR are very, very different.
October 24, 2006 6:51:57 PM

Quote:
DDR3 faster and more energy efficient than DDR2


Wow, that should win the most intelligent quote of the day!!!!! You my friend are really on top of things letting us know such important information.

Wow Im going to go waaaaaaaay out on a limb here and predict that DDR4 will be even faster and more efficient than DDR3!!!!!! I could be wrong :roll: :roll: 8O :lol: We all pray the limb breaks.
October 24, 2006 7:04:36 PM

Great post, thank you.

Knowing future market trends is important for planning upgrades. I don't care how big your budget is, it's probably limited. So wether you're upgrading to midrange products every ~3years or high-end stuff every ~3months planning is still prudent so you can keep your Performance/$$$ up and ride as high on the technology curve as you can afford. If not... you should just buy a Dell and stop ruining the enthusiast market with complusive buying habits.

So I should probably stick with DDR2 for my panned upgrade in 2h 2007, maybe ride that out until early 2009. *ponders* At least it's actually faster this time and should drop down to comperable prices within a more reasonable timeframe! :)  The DDR to DDR2 transition was horrible for consumers and manufacturers. Less power is also good; need to save watts for all those extra cores they want to sell us xD
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 24, 2006 7:06:04 PM

I would assume the memory controller on the northbridge can handle both DDR2 and DDR3 signaling. Then you can implement either o nly one of them or even both of them if you want to. I guess some people can shed more light...

I would be surprised if it was keyed the same...That would imply that current motherboard need to detect it's ddr3 and simply dont boot(ithout frying the stick), and that future mobo based on barelake could "sens" what generation it is and apply the right voltage.

Guess some people have more info / we will get more informaiton in the upcomming weeks.
October 24, 2006 7:15:01 PM

Quote:
Did you guys notice the ULTRA High latenceys... Seems like with every step forward, they take a step back . . .
This always happens, even within the same technology. i.e. SDRAM....going from PC100 to PC133, latencies increased. Then for 133 to 150 again, and as yields increase, the faster timed stuff becomes available. Same with DDR, and now DDR2. The first RAM to run @DDR2-1066 had higher latency than DDR2-800. Once it gets to the point where latencies are very low, and speeds are very high, they are usually near the max for that technology(same as CPU's....K8 @3GHz is very near the limits, and thus K8L/65nm will come to the rescue). :wink:
October 24, 2006 8:24:30 PM

@Mephistopheles

All SDR, DDR, DDR2, DDR3 and so on, will benefit from more advanced prouction process. Although DDR3 will have less real-time latency than DDR2, the RAM latency will not be an issue for the future x86 CPUs. Memory disambiguation, shared caches, advanced prefetchers and other techniques will diminish the impact of the high latency.

@zarooch

The number of pins will be the same as for DDR2, but the pin configuration is different. DDR3 can't fit in DDR2 slot and vice versa. Also the DDR3 voltage is lower than DDR2 voltage.

@LameNoobMike

Why don't you come back with something less stupid? I'll skip the usual flaming therapy, beacuse it doesn't work for you and I allready feel sorry about your insane stupidity.
October 24, 2006 9:41:00 PM

Quote:
GDDR and DDR are very, very different.


I wasn't making the point that they are the same. I was making the point that GDDR3 came first and then DDR3. It was GDDR2 then DDR2. If that trend continues DDR4 will be ready next year. If they don't just take DDR3 to maturity people will need new RAM sockets because of the different voltages.
October 24, 2006 10:12:32 PM

Ah, thank you for that clearification.
October 24, 2006 10:53:52 PM

Quote:
Seven Deadly Sins
* Lust
* Gluttony
* Greed / Avarice
* Sloth / Laziness
* Wrath
* Envy
* Pride



You just sped up my trip to hell. Since laziness is now a deadly sin im heading to hell with a nuclear missile attached to my back :-/
October 25, 2006 2:14:47 AM

Glad to be of service. :wink:
October 25, 2006 4:33:44 AM

Quote:
@zarooch
The number of pins will be the same as for DDR2, but the pin configuration is different. DDR3 can't fit in DDR2 slot and vice versa. Also the DDR3 voltage is lower than DDR2 voltage.


Well, since there are three variants of the Bearlake chipest (X, P, G and G+) what I think is now going to happen is that there will be different motherboards (one that support DDR2 and one that support DDR3) with the same chipset (Bearlake) as because it has built-in support (Northbridge supports both DDR2 AND DDR3) for both.

But in the end I would say WTF? Different motherboards just for the reason of DDR2 Or 3. I'd suggest as both Intel and AMD are supporting DDR3 in there upcoming chipsets (Northbridge) and processors (IMC) respectively, the manufacturing of DDR2 should be halted and DDR3 should be made available from value segment upto the entusiast segment. But I know no one would like to pay such a high price for the DDR3, well guess wot? It's time for a change.
October 29, 2006 6:11:04 PM

i have to agree, ram is getting insane as of late. and i remember when there was the push for DDR over SDR (when i had my PIII) on the AMD side :-\. and that whole thing with rambus ram and P4's. for most of us (that adopted those early P4's....) it was terribly expensive (especially that rambus ram), and it wasnt even worth the money...... for over clocking enthusiasts fast ram is use full yes, and for people that are really into encoding, compiling and the like.

but for most people, and even most gamers, ram speed is on the low end of performance bottlenecks. not a plea against moving forward, but i myself find it tiresome and expensive to have to keep up with new kinds of ram. and the only thing that really changes is the frequency and the voltage, its still a 64 bit bus. i do like the idea of AM3 proccessers (supposedly) being able to use DDR2 or DDR3 memory tho. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_AM3
you would think someone would have thought of a way of some kind of jumper (or BIOS) switch to simply change the voltages.
October 29, 2006 7:18:49 PM

Quote:
Why don't you read the whole article before you make a wrong conclusion?
The real time latency will be reduced compared to DDR2.


Mr. Kim Gyou Joong is talking about LINEAR access latency. I measure 13ns with DDR2-800MHz, and there are no 6-6-6 DDR2-800MHz so I call bullshit.

What really counts is RANDOM access latency.

I don't believe a word of this FUD until they publish some test results.
October 29, 2006 9:45:25 PM

Quote:
All SDR, DDR, DDR2, DDR3 and so on, will benefit from more advanced prouction process.


Interesting nº. 1: If scaled linearly, [Samsung] DDR3 power consumption @1600MHz would only be 6.5% higher than DDR2@800MHz; not bad, is it?!

Interesting nº. 2:
Quote:
Finally, DDR3 is expected to be the main technology in 2009.
meanwhile:
Quote:
The Samsung electron developing 1GB DDR2 of 50nm process adoption DRAM (...) the technology regarding two 3 dimensional three-dimensional transistors (...) it is the schedule which starts the supply to the market 2008 1st quarter.

(http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fjournal.mycom.co.jp%2Fnews%2F2006%2F10%2F19%2F300.html&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)

Well, there'll be overlapping (DDR2/DDR3), but Samsung seems to have wild plans for DDR2...


Cheers!
October 30, 2006 5:33:05 AM

Quote:
Seven Deadly Sins
* Lust
* Gluttony
* Greed / Avarice
* Sloth / Laziness
* Wrath
* Envy
* Pride

Fortunately I dont believe in that crap.

I do however believe in DDR3, because I wonder how long ddr2 can keep up with the way that CPUs are leaping forward.

Might have to run around beating people up so i can take their Core 2 QX6700s and their DDR3 and their 8800GTXs... lol.
October 30, 2006 5:34:03 AM

http://www.eetasia.com/ART_8800439609_499486_8d5d6df320...

theres the english version of that site

man once DDR3 comes out, i can starting planning the chipset of my build, anyways quick question

i remembering reading one day n the early stages of DDR2 maximum PC published some test results between DDR and DDR2 and they said the test results shown, show little improvment between the two, and this is continue until DDR2 800 comes out, which was sorta true, my question is, will something like this happen with DDR 3, is yes i hate life, and 2nd thing, what did they say that? what was thier reasoning behind it.

and if someone, like on cpuid has a DDR3 running system, then why cant the basturds release the damn thing, if high end computer parts were as popular as consoles you know they'd release the things the first second they got a chance. thats my 10 cents, my 2 cents is free peace
October 30, 2006 5:42:00 AM

Quote:
http://www.eetasia.com/ART_8800439609_499486_8d5d6df320...

theres the english version of that site

man once DDR3 comes out, i can starting planning the chipset of my build, anyways quick question

i remembering reading one day n the early stages of DDR2 maximum PC published some test results between DDR and DDR2 and they said the test results shown, show little improvment between the two, and this is continue until DDR2 800 comes out, which was sorta true, my question is, will something like this happen with DDR 3, is yes i hate life, and 2nd thing, what did they say that? what was thier reasoning behind it.

and if someone, like on cpuid has a DDR3 running system, then why cant the basturds release the damn thing, if high end computer parts were as popular as consoles you know they'd release the things the first second they got a chance. thats my 10 cents, my 2 cents is free peace


ok.

Well, depending on how they release DDR3, it may or may not be like the DDR - DDR2 transition.
At the moment it looks like DDR3 will be a huge leap ahead of DDR2, but DDR2 will of course advance quite alot, at least we hope it will, before the release of DDR3.

lol, they cant release it now, because no doubt its not supported by many applications at all, from software to hardware. There are probably still alot of crap that has to be ironed out of it aswell.
On top of all that it wouldnt make alot of sense to start selling DDR3, whilst DDR2 is still in its infant stages, and to squash DDR2 with DDR3 would be a bad busniess mistake....
October 30, 2006 3:59:16 PM

Quote:
DDR3 faster and more energy efficient than DDR2


Wow, that should win the most intelligent quote of the day!!!!! You my friend are really on top of things letting us know such important information.

Wow Im going to go waaaaaaaay out on a limb here and predict that DDR4 will be even faster and more efficient than DDR3!!!!!! I could be wrong :roll: :roll: 8O :lol: 

This coming from the guy who chose to warn us all of "the dark side of Conroe".
October 30, 2006 5:27:27 PM

I think an 09 timeline for DDR3 to take mainstream seems about right, since DDR2 is just taking mainstream next year, and after that, another year or two and DDR2 will be stale thus needing to go onto DDR3...

This news is just way too early to do any good, thats all it is. Same thing as Intel saying 80 cores. If your worried about upgrading all the time, just pretend you don't see this and you won't have to worry about it. I'm pretty sure the low end DDR3 will be approx the high end DDR2, i.e. you won't see much of a difference in the beginning.

Once I get ready to build my comp next quarter, I'm gouging out my eyes and sewing my ears shut so I don't have to worry about whats the next thing that makes my machine obsolete.
October 30, 2006 6:21:24 PM

Quote:
I think an 09 timeline for DDR3 to take mainstream seems about right, since DDR2 is just taking mainstream next year, and after that, another year or two and DDR2 will be stale thus needing to go onto DDR3...

This news is just way too early to do any good, thats all it is. Same thing as Intel saying 80 cores. If your worried about upgrading all the time, just pretend you don't see this and you won't have to worry about it. I'm pretty sure the low end DDR3 will be approx the high end DDR2, i.e. you won't see much of a difference in the beginning.

Once I get ready to build my comp next quarter, I'm gouging out my eyes and sewing my ears shut so I don't have to worry about whats the next thing that makes my machine obsolete.
LMAO....You better buy a braille keyboard, i guess. :wink:
October 30, 2006 7:25:57 PM

heh, wonder if they sell them...

http://hooleon.com/menu-vision.htm#braille

Actually, I pretty much know exactly where all the keyboard keys are... so braille keyboard won't really help me...

However, don't know what I would use the mouse for...
October 31, 2006 2:07:37 AM

I agree man.. the reason why i didn't buy a conroe system was because I got a free 3700+ and already had a GB of Mushkin lvl 2 pc3500 bh-5 memory.
Although in benchmarks i feel like i have a little guy in my pants.. i feel ok in games.. and i guess thats all that matters. Of course like everything I do when i upgrade.. two weeks after.. i want something faster.. although i know it wont change anything for me.


Although i splurged and bought a 7900GT.. the dfi board was only 100bucks.. so i had to weigh that out with.. if i was willing to buy new memory which really isn't any better or no where near future proof for my overclocking needs later on down the road... Sucks when you realize that the memory game is going to start changing like the socket game.. :( .
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