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XP Repair Installation

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Anonymous
December 10, 2004 12:06:42 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Doug Knox:

Thank you for the following:

www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/learnm...

My situation is that my XP came in OEM form, with no
Microsoft Installation CD. The "Restore CD" furnished
by eMachines will lose all my installed programs and
data.

It's not out of the question that I might borrow somebody's
XP CD, but is there a way to avoid that subterfuge?
--
William B. Lurie

More about : repair installation

Anonymous
December 10, 2004 3:23:56 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

William, you cannot borrow someone else's CD for this purpose as the repair
install requires the input of the CD key. Doing so would either result in a
rejection or causing problems for the original owner if and when he tries to
activate his setup again if necessary.

The best way around this and the best insurance against this type of
situation is an actual XP CD as opposed to some proprietary OEM. The cost
of the OS on your PC as provided by the manufacturer is negligible and
frankly, they don't do you much good by giving you this type of setup
because it denies you access to tools available in retail versions. If you
want the availability of this option now and in the future, it's going to
require a purchase.

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"William B. Lurie" <billurie@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:o t3MWGs3EHA.1396@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Doug Knox:
>
> Thank you for the following:
>
> www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/learnm...
>
> My situation is that my XP came in OEM form, with no
> Microsoft Installation CD. The "Restore CD" furnished
> by eMachines will lose all my installed programs and
> data.
>
> It's not out of the question that I might borrow somebody's
> XP CD, but is there a way to avoid that subterfuge?
> --
> William B. Lurie
December 11, 2004 1:31:21 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

In news:o t3MWGs3EHA.1396@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl,
William B. Lurie <billurie@nospam.org> typed:

> Doug Knox:
>
> Thank you for the following:
>
> www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/learnm...
>
> My situation is that my XP came in OEM form, with no
> Microsoft Installation CD. The "Restore CD" furnished
> by eMachines

<snip>

Say no more. You purchased an eMachine. Ergo ...

You got exactly what you paid for.

Or as my dad used to say .... You *made* your bed...... And now you have to
sleep in it.

Sorry,

Bill
Related resources
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 12:34:59 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Bill wrote:
> In news:o t3MWGs3EHA.1396@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl,
> William B. Lurie <billurie@nospam.org> typed:
>
>
>>Doug Knox:
>>
>>Thank you for the following:
>>
>>www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/learnm...
>>
>>My situation is that my XP came in OEM form, with no
>>Microsoft Installation CD. The "Restore CD" furnished
>>by eMachines
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Say no more. You purchased an eMachine. Ergo ...
>
> You got exactly what you paid for.
>
> Or as my dad used to say .... You *made* your bed...... And now you have to
> sleep in it.
>
> Sorry,
>
> Bill
>
>
Bill, I read you loud and clear, as we used to say.
But the situation is the same when buying just about
any OEM machine.....people bitch about HP......and
Dell......and Gateway.......for the same reasons.

Bill L.
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 12:35:00 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

William B. Lurie wrote:

> Bill, I read you loud and clear, as we used to say.
> But the situation is the same when buying just about
> any OEM machine.....people bitch about HP......and
> Dell......and Gateway.......for the same reasons.
>
> Bill L.


Actually, Dell and Gateway provide real installation CDs with their OEM
installations. Even HP provides a true installation CD with some
models. One just has to ask _before_ making the purchase.

--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once. - RAH
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 4:07:39 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

All the Dell machines I have seen have both a restore CD and
a real MS CD (it does say Dell on it) but it is the same as
a MS CD.


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.


"William B. Lurie" <billurie@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:%23gaha643EHA.1260@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
| Bill wrote:
| > In news:o t3MWGs3EHA.1396@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl,
| > William B. Lurie <billurie@nospam.org> typed:
| >
| >
| >>Doug Knox:
| >>
| >>Thank you for the following:
| >>
|
>>www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/learnm...
| >>
| >>My situation is that my XP came in OEM form, with no
| >>Microsoft Installation CD. The "Restore CD" furnished
| >>by eMachines
| >
| >
| > <snip>
| >
| > Say no more. You purchased an eMachine. Ergo ...
| >
| > You got exactly what you paid for.
| >
| > Or as my dad used to say .... You *made* your bed......
And now you have to
| > sleep in it.
| >
| > Sorry,
| >
| > Bill
| >
| >
| Bill, I read you loud and clear, as we used to say.
| But the situation is the same when buying just about
| any OEM machine.....people bitch about HP......and
| Dell......and Gateway.......for the same reasons.
|
| Bill L.
December 11, 2004 4:26:22 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

In news:%23biQJv53EHA.2012@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl,
Bruce Chambers <bruce_a_chambers@h0tmail.com> typed:

> William B. Lurie wrote:
>
>> Bill, I read you loud and clear, as we used to say.
>> But the situation is the same when buying just about
>> any OEM machine.....people bitch about HP......and
>> Dell......and Gateway.......for the same reasons.
>>
>> Bill L.
>
>
> Actually, Dell and Gateway provide real installation CDs with their
> OEM installations. Even HP provides a true installation CD with some
> models. One just has to ask _before_ making the purchase.

Precisely.

I'll take your word about Gateway and HP, but I know for *sure* that Dell
supplies the "real deal".

Bill
December 11, 2004 7:01:55 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

In news:Xns95BCA22F28743idispcom@216.196.97.142,
DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t> typed:

> "Bill" <Bill@no.invalid> wrote in
> news:Y-ydnbj9BZSP9yfcRVn-hw@comcast.com:
>
>> In news:o t3MWGs3EHA.1396@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl,
>> William B. Lurie <billurie@nospam.org> typed:
>>
>>> Doug Knox:
>>>
>>> Thank you for the following:
>>>
>>> www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/learnm...
>>> .mspx
>>>
>>> My situation is that my XP came in OEM form, with no
>>> Microsoft Installation CD. The "Restore CD" furnished
>>> by eMachines
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Say no more. You purchased an eMachine. Ergo ...
>>
>> You got exactly what you paid for.
>>
>> Or as my dad used to say .... You *made* your bed...... And now you
>> have to sleep in it.
>>
>> Sorry,
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>
> bill,
>
> while it may be true that eMachines are less expensive machines, what
> machines out there come with a regular windows CD anymore ?

All three of my Dells, and according to Bruce Chambers, all the Gateways,
and some HP's.

<snip>

Bill
December 11, 2004 9:50:33 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

"William B. Lurie" <billurie@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:o t3MWGs3EHA.1396@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Doug Knox:
>
> Thank you for the following:
>
> www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/learnm...
>
> My situation is that my XP came in OEM form, with no
> Microsoft Installation CD. The "Restore CD" furnished
> by eMachines will lose all my installed programs and
> data.
>
> It's not out of the question that I might borrow somebody's
> XP CD, but is there a way to avoid that subterfuge?
> --
> William B. Lurie


Bill,
How is it that you seem to have painted yourself into a corner and
need a repair install to put things right? From many of your previous
posts I got the impression that you back up your master drive to a
"clone" drive. If this is the case why not install it to recover to a
fully working system and then restore your data backups as necessary?

Richard.
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 10:38:51 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Bill wrote:
> In news:Xns95BCA22F28743idispcom@216.196.97.142,
> DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t> typed:
>
>
>>"Bill" <Bill@no.invalid> wrote in
>>news:Y-ydnbj9BZSP9yfcRVn-hw@comcast.com:
>>
>>
>>>In news:o t3MWGs3EHA.1396@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl,
>>>William B. Lurie <billurie@nospam.org> typed:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Doug Knox:
>>>>
>>>>Thank you for the following:
>>>>
>>>>www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/learnm...
>>>>.mspx
>>>>
>>>>My situation is that my XP came in OEM form, with no
>>>>Microsoft Installation CD. The "Restore CD" furnished
>>>>by eMachines
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>Say no more. You purchased an eMachine. Ergo ...
>>>
>>>You got exactly what you paid for.
>>>
>>>Or as my dad used to say .... You *made* your bed...... And now you
>>>have to sleep in it.
>>>
>>>Sorry,
>>>
>>>Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>bill,
>>
>>while it may be true that eMachines are less expensive machines, what
>>machines out there come with a regular windows CD anymore ?
>
>
> All three of my Dells, and according to Bruce Chambers, all the Gateways,
> and some HP's.
>
> <snip>
>
> Bill
>
>
Okay, Bill, I learned a lot in all these additions.
E-machines is obviously the #1 stinker, and HP
seems to be not far behind. I'll keep all these in mind the
next time I have to buy an OS...

WBL
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 1:25:11 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Richard wrote:
> "William B. Lurie" <billurie@nospam.org> wrote in message
> news:o t3MWGs3EHA.1396@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>
>>Doug Knox:
>>
>>Thank you for the following:
>>
>>www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/learnm...
>>
>>My situation is that my XP came in OEM form, with no
>>Microsoft Installation CD. The "Restore CD" furnished
>>by eMachines will lose all my installed programs and
>>data.
>>
>>It's not out of the question that I might borrow somebody's
>>XP CD, but is there a way to avoid that subterfuge?
>>--
>> William B. Lurie
>
>
>
> Bill,
> How is it that you seem to have painted yourself into a corner and
> need a repair install to put things right? From many of your previous
> posts I got the impression that you back up your master drive to a
> "clone" drive. If this is the case why not install it to recover to a
> fully working system and then restore your data backups as necessary?
>
> Richard.
>
>
Richard, I am really nowhere near as inept or incapable as it
may sound. I've worked with PowerQuest Drive Image to make
an 'image' to then 'restore' to a copy of the original. I've
used PQ-DI-7 to make a Drive Copy. I've used PowerQuest
Partition Magic to "Copy" a Partition (e.g., Master Drive).
There always develop different facets of the same problem:
the cloned master does not boot. I've tried Recovery
Console and Fixboot and FixMBR. I've tried Repair Install.
I do CHKDSK, and I try working in Safe Mode.

The problem is always the same: the resultant clone will
boot fine in Slave position, jumpered as Slave, but only
by a fluke of some sort, not-reproducible, can I get it
to boot in Master position. The problem isn't in making
an exact clone of the Master drive; it's in getting it to
boot in Master position (like when it's running alone).

Your last sentence, Richard: why not? Because it isn't
just data backups. It's dozens of application programs to
be reinstalled from source CDs, or worse. They have to be
reinstalled, because just copying them doesn't do it; their
use is embedded in all the icons on desktop and in the
Registry.

Richard, any of those wise-asses out there who have nothing
better to do than chime in to tell me how dumb I am, just
haven't tried it themselves. With all the traffic you've read
here, it's strange that nobody (including Symantec and Power
Quest and the MVPs) has ever furnished a detailed, step-by-step
procedure, that works. If anybody has one, I'd be happy to
give it a try.

Bill Lurie
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 1:02:56 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

You might be able to get your personal files off the PC, before doing the
restore/destroy with the e-machines provided CD.

If the partiton with your data is FAT32, you could use a DOS boot floppy.

If it is NTFS (likely with OEM XP), then a DOS floppy plus NTFS drivers will
permit copying off the hard drive. The necessary read-only/copy drivers are
free from www.sysinternals.com. If your PC has no internal floppy, think
about adding one, as they are cheap. However, you could also make a
bootable CD from a floppy. Both Easy CD Creator and Nero can do this.

If your PC does not currently boot first from floppy, second from CD, third
from hard drive, you will need to change the BIOS setting under the BOOT
tab.

Of course, you need some place to copy the files TO. If you have a second
hard drive, second partition on the primary hard drive, ZIP, or other
internal drive this is easy. If you have nothing else internal, there are
USB drivers for DOS, but quite frankly I have had limited luck with them.
And, then, there is the good old floppy, although that is usually a bit
small.

Then, there are several LINUX-based rescue CDs. I have had excellent
results with KNOPPIX.

Finally, there are several disk imaging programs that could copy your entire
hard drive to an external hard drive as an image (single compressed file).
Many programs in this category permit the recovery of selected files or
directory trees. For example, Norton GHOST and Acronis True Image. ( I
prefer True Image 8 over GHOST 2003, although the newer GHOST 9 sounds
interesting, but it also might be more limited in some ways.) So, after the
PC is "fixed", you could get back only the files you want. The detailed
steps for such a save/restore of files would be something like:

1. buy software
2. install temporarily on a good PC
3. make bootable media with backup/restore software (floppies or CD)
4. run backup form old PC to external USB disk
5. move external disk to working PC and verify you can extract single
file(s). This processes is called Ghost explorer or mounting an image,
depending on the software, and it only works on the PC with the
softwareinstalled, not from the bootable media.
6. if step 5 works, use the OEM CD to "fix" the PC.
7. recover fils with the other PC to any media that the repaied PC can
read, including as single files/directories on the USB disk.
8. copy file back to repaired PC.
Then,
9. uninstall backup program from good PC and install it on now-repaired PC.
10. make a backup of the now repaired PC. This can be used instead of the
emachines CDROM, and it is more current.
11. In the future, make occassional backups of the PC, so you can return to
last week, or last month, instead of day-one. Do this especially just
before installing/unindtalling software or updates to software, including XP
updates.
12. More frequently, backup personal files. XP's windows explorer or the
DOS-like commands "COPY" or "XCOPY" work very well on persoanl files. (They
do not work on key system files.) Be sure to use the /V parameter, where
"V" means verify, or check that the copy matches the original. For more
informtion on these command, type the command followed by /? in a command
prompt window.

Good luck.

"William B. Lurie" <billurie@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:o t3MWGs3EHA.1396@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Doug Knox:
>
> Thank you for the following:
>
> www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/learnm...
>
> My situation is that my XP came in OEM form, with no
> Microsoft Installation CD. The "Restore CD" furnished
> by eMachines will lose all my installed programs and
> data.
>
> It's not out of the question that I might borrow somebody's
> XP CD, but is there a way to avoid that subterfuge?
> --
> William B. Lurie
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 3:25:37 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Ken Blake wrote:
> In news:Xns95BCA22F28743idispcom@216.196.97.142,
> DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t> typed:
>
>
>>while it may be true that eMachines are less expensive
>>machines, what
>>machines out there come with a regular windows CD anymore ?
>
>
>
> I assume that, by "a *regular* windows CD," you mean an
> installation CD as opposed to a restore CD or a hidden restore
> partition.
>
Yes, a genuine XP Installation CD, from which the OS
can be installed, or maybe even was installed.

> The answer is many. All Dell machines do, and I believe Gateways
> do too. And virtually all of the machines that are custom-built
> by local vendors.
>
Well, Compaq and HP, I believe, do not. This has been
"live and learn" for me. My 98, even though made by an
OEM, had a full Installation CD. eMachines was exceptionally
good about mail-in replacements for a hard drive and also
a floppy drive that failed in the first six months, but
no help at all in fixing software glitches. Their answer always is
"The Restore CD will get you back to a new clean system".

> There are certainly some national brands that don't, but those
> can be (and should be, as far as I'm concerned) avoided.
>
December 12, 2004 3:54:13 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

>
>> Bill,
>> How is it that you seem to have painted yourself into a corner and
>> need a repair install to put things right? From many of your previous
>> posts I got the impression that you back up your master drive to a
>> "clone" drive. If this is the case why not install it to recover to a
>> fully working system and then restore your data backups as necessary?
>>
>> Richard.
>>

I must first apologise for inserting my replies between your
paragraphs,but in this case it should be more concise.
>>
> Richard, I am really nowhere near as inept or incapable as it
> may sound. I've worked with PowerQuest Drive Image to make
> an 'image' to then 'restore' to a copy of the original. I've
> used PQ-DI-7 to make a Drive Copy. I've used PowerQuest
> Partition Magic to "Copy" a Partition (e.g., Master Drive).
> There always develop different facets of the same problem:
> the cloned master does not boot. I've tried Recovery
> Console and Fixboot and FixMBR. I've tried Repair Install.
> I do CHKDSK, and I try working in Safe Mode.

I started with PQ and then Ghost 9. Using either there has been no problem
in making a bootable replacement HDD. Obviously I cannot from this distance
establish what went wrong when you tried the Image/ Restore method. I can
however promise you that it does work and it is the way that the designers
intended that it should be used. I actually Ghost my entire system including
OS, Programs, Data etc on a daily schedule. Manual intervention is only
necessary when testing the backup system's integrity or in the case of an
actual emergency.
>
> The problem is always the same: the resultant clone will
> boot fine in Slave position, jumpered as Slave, but only
> by a fluke of some sort, not-reproducible, can I get it
> to boot in Master position. The problem isn't in making
> an exact clone of the Master drive; it's in getting it to
> boot in Master position (like when it's running alone).

It is obvious that you have NOT made an exact clone of the Master drive. The
boot sector or drive status must contain errors or the clone would boot.

I am surprised that you have not gone back to the Image/Restore method and
sorted out your methodology.

> Your last sentence, Richard: why not? Because it isn't
> just data backups. It's dozens of application programs to
> be reinstalled from source CDs, or worse. They have to be
> reinstalled, because just copying them doesn't do it; their
> use is embedded in all the icons on desktop and in the
> Registry.

I must be mistaken as to the contents of your Master drive and it's clone. I
thought that both contained the OS, programs and data. If this were the case
you would only have to recover any data and added/removed programs since
your last cloning operation. If your backups are not complete why bother
with them at all ?
>
> Richard, any of those wise-asses out there who have nothing
> better to do than chime in to tell me how dumb I am, just
> haven't tried it themselves. With all the traffic you've read
> here, it's strange that nobody (including Symantec and Power
> Quest and the MVPs) has ever furnished a detailed, step-by-step
> procedure, that works. If anybody has one, I'd be happy to
> give it a try.
>
Well I have tried both methods and they work. However I find Image/Restore
far superior as one can restore any file, folder etc without leaving
Windows. Replacing a broken drive, testing or recovering from a complete
cock-up are really the only times it is necessary to juggle with hard drives
and boot from the Recovery CD. The detailed, step-by-step procedures are all
contained in the manual. I found that following the on-screen prompts after
a read through quite sufficient.
Two pointers that are worth following. When booting from the recovery CD
keep your eyes on the screen and watch out for the "press any key to boot
from the CD" it is only there for about 5 seconds and if missed the recovery
process will abort. When presented with options use the defaults in the
first instance, even if you think you know better, you can always run the
process a second time if required.

Richard
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 11:23:38 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 22:25:11 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:

> The problem is always the same: the resultant clone will
> boot fine in Slave position, jumpered as Slave, but only
> by a fluke of some sort, not-reproducible, can I get it
> to boot in Master position. The problem isn't in making
> an exact clone of the Master drive; it's in getting it to
> boot in Master position (like when it's running alone).

Bill, I skip the cloned disk scenario. Instead I use disk images. That
image (an image file, not a cloned drive) gets stored on another drive. If
needed, it gets restored to the original drive. Takes about 10 minutes - 20
or 30 if I run the "validate" option after the restore.

Only mention this since your clone approach has not had desired results so
far. Am thinking that you might like to have another option available for
disaster recovery. You have the software for this already. You would just
be using different features from the programs.

--

Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 12:38:56 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Sharon F wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 22:25:11 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:
>
>
>>The problem is always the same: the resultant clone will
>>boot fine in Slave position, jumpered as Slave, but only
>>by a fluke of some sort, not-reproducible, can I get it
>>to boot in Master position. The problem isn't in making
>>an exact clone of the Master drive; it's in getting it to
>>boot in Master position (like when it's running alone).
>
>
> Bill, I skip the cloned disk scenario. Instead I use disk images. That
> image (an image file, not a cloned drive) gets stored on another drive. If
> needed, it gets restored to the original drive. Takes about 10 minutes - 20
> or 30 if I run the "validate" option after the restore.
>
> Only mention this since your clone approach has not had desired results so
> far. Am thinking that you might like to have another option available for
> disaster recovery. You have the software for this already. You would just
> be using different features from the programs.
>
Sharon, as usual I may not have included every one of the facts.
In using Drive Image 7, the lack of being able to boot as Master
applies equally to the "Copy one Drive to another" mode and the
"Back up Drive Image" mode, which is what I believe you suggested.
In either case, the copied or restored drive always boots if
placed at Slave, but is only rarely bootable where one would
normally want it, namely, back where its original was, as the
Master drive. It seems to me that one of the available tools
should be able to overcome this ("fixboot" or "fixmbr" maybe,
but real information on how to use them, I haven't found yet).

--
William B. Lurie
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 12:38:57 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:38:56 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:

> Sharon, as usual I may not have included every one of the facts.
> In using Drive Image 7, the lack of being able to boot as Master
> applies equally to the "Copy one Drive to another" mode and the
> "Back up Drive Image" mode, which is what I believe you suggested.

I don't know the wording in the programs you are using (I use Image for
Windows) but I do not create a copy of a drive - so no, that is not what
I'm suggesting. While my imaging software is capable of creating a cloned
drive, what I'm describing is different than what you're currently doing.

I create an image file - it is not bootable. When viewed in Windows
Explorer, I see a single huge file - not a copy of the original drive. To
restore an image, I run a program. Tell it to access the saved image file
and tell it what drive to restore the image to. The program then "unpacks"
the image file to the drive to recreate a working operating system. Unload
the imaging program. Restart the computer and I'm back in business.

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 2:26:43 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Sharon F wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:38:56 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:
>
>
>>Sharon, as usual I may not have included every one of the facts.
>>In using Drive Image 7, the lack of being able to boot as Master
>>applies equally to the "Copy one Drive to another" mode and the
>>"Back up Drive Image" mode, which is what I believe you suggested.
>
>
> I don't know the wording in the programs you are using (I use Image for
> Windows) but I do not create a copy of a drive - so no, that is not what
> I'm suggesting. While my imaging software is capable of creating a cloned
> drive, what I'm describing is different than what you're currently doing.
>
> I create an image file - it is not bootable. When viewed in Windows
> Explorer, I see a single huge file - not a copy of the original drive. To
> restore an image, I run a program. Tell it to access the saved image file
> and tell it what drive to restore the image to. The program then "unpacks"
> the image file to the drive to recreate a working operating system. Unload
> the imaging program. Restart the computer and I'm back in business.
>
Right. That is the "Back up Drive Image" that PowerQuest (now Symantec)
does. Their "PowerQuest Recovery Environment" "unpacks" the image to
make the original again. And it does. But when I go to "Restart the
computer", I am not in business. The restored drive will boot only
as slave....not as Master. Something is wrong with the way the Master
Boot Record is set up, (boot.ini looks correct), or something,
I know not what.......which is why I'm here asking what or how.....
It boots, past the black+logo Windows screen, to the blue Windows+
logo screen, but *not* to the "loading your personal settings" screen.
Ay, thereby hangs the rub.

Bill L.
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 3:37:58 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:26:43 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:

> Right. That is the "Back up Drive Image" that PowerQuest (now Symantec)
> does. Their "PowerQuest Recovery Environment" "unpacks" the image to
> make the original again. And it does. But when I go to "Restart the
> computer", I am not in business. The restored drive will boot only
> as slave....not as Master. Something is wrong with the way the Master
> Boot Record is set up, (boot.ini looks correct), or something,
> I know not what.......which is why I'm here asking what or how.....
> It boots, past the black+logo Windows screen, to the blue Windows+
> logo screen, but *not* to the "loading your personal settings" screen.
> Ay, thereby hangs the rub.

Bill, when I test my image software I use the working drive:

C: has XP installed on it. J: is on a second physical drive and holds the
images which are also copied to a few CDs or a single DVD. When I restore,
I run the program from the CD or DVD disk that contains the program and
image. The image on J: is a backup of the CD/DVD image - in effect it is
"Plan B" and available if I run into problems with the CD/DVD restore. I
restore to C: -- the same drive, same partition where the image was made
from. I have had consistent success with this method.

Although it is possible using Image for Windows, I've never tried restoring
an image to a different drive and/or a different partition. I always put it
back to the same one it originated from. My drives never move position on
the cables. I never change boot order in BIOS.

Do I hold my breath when testing restore images? You better believe it!
It's risky because if it fails, I've just hosed what I was trying to
preserve. I periodically do so anyhow as a successful restore is what I
want when and if it's needed. As a cushion, I always have available at
least one tested restore image that has successfully restored the system in
the past.

I think this is where we part ways when working with images? It sounds to
me like you're restoring to a different drive/partition instead of to the
original; possibly changing boot order to test the results. And if I
understand your history correctly, that second copy never boots or runs
correctly when you try to boot with it as the master drive. Since I've
never tried this method (creating a second copy of XP on a second drive), I
have no idea where things go wrong for you.

Your restored image always works correctly when the drive is left in the
same position it was in when the restore process was performed. Perhaps
that means something and is significant to the trouble you've been having.
Perhaps you need to pull that second drive. Place it in master position.
Then run the restore from outside of Windows (you would have to since
you've pulled the first drive for the moment) and on the second drive. It
should then become a true "replacement" for your regular primary drive?

FWIW, you're actually working smarter than I am, using your second drive as
the test bed for restoring images instead of the main drive. If the restore
goes bonkers, you still have your working drive untouched. I risk the drive
but the image program's good reputation and the past successes I've had
with it make the risk reasonable for me.

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 5:09:50 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Sharon F wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:26:43 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:
>
>
>>Right. That is the "Back up Drive Image" that PowerQuest (now Symantec)
>>does. Their "PowerQuest Recovery Environment" "unpacks" the image to
>>make the original again. And it does. But when I go to "Restart the
>>computer", I am not in business. The restored drive will boot only
>>as slave....not as Master. Something is wrong with the way the Master
>>Boot Record is set up, (boot.ini looks correct), or something,
>>I know not what.......which is why I'm here asking what or how.....
>>It boots, past the black+logo Windows screen, to the blue Windows+
>>logo screen, but *not* to the "loading your personal settings" screen.
>>Ay, thereby hangs the rub.
>
>
> Bill, when I test my image software I use the working drive:
>
> C: has XP installed on it. J: is on a second physical drive and holds the
> images which are also copied to a few CDs or a single DVD. When I restore,
> I run the program from the CD or DVD disk that contains the program and
> image. The image on J: is a backup of the CD/DVD image - in effect it is
> "Plan B" and available if I run into problems with the CD/DVD restore. I
> restore to C: -- the same drive, same partition where the image was made
> from. I have had consistent success with this method.
>
> Although it is possible using Image for Windows, I've never tried restoring
> an image to a different drive and/or a different partition. I always put it
> back to the same one it originated from. My drives never move position on
> the cables. I never change boot order in BIOS.
>
> Do I hold my breath when testing restore images? You better believe it!
> It's risky because if it fails, I've just hosed what I was trying to
> preserve. I periodically do so anyhow as a successful restore is what I
> want when and if it's needed. As a cushion, I always have available at
> least one tested restore image that has successfully restored the system in
> the past.
>
> I think this is where we part ways when working with images? It sounds to
> me like you're restoring to a different drive/partition instead of to the
> original; possibly changing boot order to test the results. And if I
> understand your history correctly, that second copy never boots or runs
> correctly when you try to boot with it as the master drive. Since I've
> never tried this method (creating a second copy of XP on a second drive), I
> have no idea where things go wrong for you.
>
> Your restored image always works correctly when the drive is left in the
> same position it was in when the restore process was performed. Perhaps
> that means something and is significant to the trouble you've been having.
> Perhaps you need to pull that second drive. Place it in master position.
> Then run the restore from outside of Windows (you would have to since
> you've pulled the first drive for the moment) and on the second drive. It
> should then become a true "replacement" for your regular primary drive?
>
> FWIW, you're actually working smarter than I am, using your second drive as
> the test bed for restoring images instead of the main drive. If the restore
> goes bonkers, you still have your working drive untouched. I risk the drive
> but the image program's good reputation and the past successes I've had
> with it make the risk reasonable for me.
>
Sharon, you spent a lot of time, being explicit, making sure nobody
would misunderstand. And you raised several good points.

You hit the nail on the head......you always restore to the same drive.
If and when my main drive fails, of course I will be restoring to the
original (i.e., same) drive. But, surprisingly, I haven't yet had to
do that. I have worked months to establish the system, using other
drives to restore to, keeping my original "safe". Maybe I have no
problem, or would have no problem. So I think we've closed the loop,
and I can stop annoying people by being so conservative as to incite
ire.

Now a funny thing happened to me this morning, on the way to the forum:
I followed PoweQuest's instructions, made a Drive Image Copy (not a
copy of the drive), and restored it to an old harddrive....successfully,
and it booted up fine. As I look at it, I was lucky, because it doesn't
always work. But I'm awful tired of trying to make it a foolproof
process. Let's quit while we're ahead.....and thank you so much.

Bill Lurie
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 7:35:05 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:09:50 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:

> Sharon, you spent a lot of time, being explicit, making sure nobody
> would misunderstand. And you raised several good points.
>
> You hit the nail on the head......you always restore to the same drive.
> If and when my main drive fails, of course I will be restoring to the
> original (i.e., same) drive. But, surprisingly, I haven't yet had to
> do that. I have worked months to establish the system, using other
> drives to restore to, keeping my original "safe". Maybe I have no
> problem, or would have no problem. So I think we've closed the loop,
> and I can stop annoying people by being so conservative as to incite
> ire.
>
> Now a funny thing happened to me this morning, on the way to the forum:
> I followed PoweQuest's instructions, made a Drive Image Copy (not a
> copy of the drive), and restored it to an old harddrive....successfully,
> and it booted up fine. As I look at it, I was lucky, because it doesn't
> always work. But I'm awful tired of trying to make it a foolproof
> process. Let's quit while we're ahead.....and thank you so much.

You're welcome, Bill. I think part of the problem when we've discussed this
in the past was the terminology. Michael Solomon wrote a lot about the
differences and tried to pin it down early in the game but that's all water
under the bridge at this point. Bottom line: Drive image and drive copy are
different concepts and different methods. It gets complicated because some
software manuals and some people will use the terms interchangeably. It's
hard enough to keep details straight when working with new software and new
methods. Harder yet when the terminology isn't always exact and fluctuates.

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User
December 14, 2004 12:55:43 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

"Sharon F" <sharonfDEL@ETEmvps.org> wrote in message
news:o fDnzKU4EHA.208@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:26:43 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:
>
>> Right. That is the "Back up Drive Image" that PowerQuest (now Symantec)
>> does. Their "PowerQuest Recovery Environment" "unpacks" the image to
>> make the original again. And it does. But when I go to "Restart the
>> computer", I am not in business. The restored drive will boot only
>> as slave....not as Master. Something is wrong with the way the Master
>> Boot Record is set up, (boot.ini looks correct), or something,
>> I know not what.......which is why I'm here asking what or how.....
>> It boots, past the black+logo Windows screen, to the blue Windows+
>> logo screen, but *not* to the "loading your personal settings" screen.
>> Ay, thereby hangs the rub.
>
> Bill, when I test my image software I use the working drive:
>
> C: has XP installed on it. J: is on a second physical drive and holds the
> images which are also copied to a few CDs or a single DVD. When I restore,
> I run the program from the CD or DVD disk that contains the program and
> image. The image on J: is a backup of the CD/DVD image - in effect it is
> "Plan B" and available if I run into problems with the CD/DVD restore. I
> restore to C: -- the same drive, same partition where the image was made
> from. I have had consistent success with this method.
>
> Although it is possible using Image for Windows, I've never tried
> restoring
> an image to a different drive and/or a different partition. I always put
> it
> back to the same one it originated from. My drives never move position on
> the cables. I never change boot order in BIOS.
>
> Do I hold my breath when testing restore images? You better believe it!
> It's risky because if it fails, I've just hosed what I was trying to
> preserve. I periodically do so anyhow as a successful restore is what I
> want when and if it's needed. As a cushion, I always have available at
> least one tested restore image that has successfully restored the system
> in
> the past.
>
> I think this is where we part ways when working with images? It sounds to
> me like you're restoring to a different drive/partition instead of to the
> original; possibly changing boot order to test the results. And if I
> understand your history correctly, that second copy never boots or runs
> correctly when you try to boot with it as the master drive. Since I've
> never tried this method (creating a second copy of XP on a second drive),
> I
> have no idea where things go wrong for you.
>
> Your restored image always works correctly when the drive is left in the
> same position it was in when the restore process was performed. Perhaps
> that means something and is significant to the trouble you've been having.
> Perhaps you need to pull that second drive. Place it in master position.
> Then run the restore from outside of Windows (you would have to since
> you've pulled the first drive for the moment) and on the second drive. It
> should then become a true "replacement" for your regular primary drive?
>
> FWIW, you're actually working smarter than I am, using your second drive
> as
> the test bed for restoring images instead of the main drive. If the
> restore
> goes bonkers, you still have your working drive untouched. I risk the
> drive
> but the image program's good reputation and the past successes I've had
> with it make the risk reasonable for me.
>
> --
> Sharon F
> MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User

Sharon,
I took my own testing one stage further and restored the image of my main
(boot) drive to a new drive straight from the computer store. My thinking
was thus: Pretend the main drive has failed. I have a backup image on my
still working slave drive. So I bought a replacement drive, actually an
upgrade to a bigger faster drive which I was going to do anyway, installed
it in the computer and restored the image to the new drive using the
recovery environment. Re-booted and that was it, everything was up and
running again using the new improved drive.

Of course I still had the original drive sitting on the shelf in case of
problems. As the new drive was a success I installed the old one in a USB 2
caddy formatted it and it is now used to store regular backup images of both
my installed HDDs.

The cost of the extra drive and the USB 2 caddy are good value for the peace
of mind that they bring.

Richard.
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 12:55:44 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:55:43 +0000 (UTC), Richard wrote:

> Sharon,
> I took my own testing one stage further and restored the image of my main
> (boot) drive to a new drive straight from the computer store. My thinking
> was thus: Pretend the main drive has failed. I have a backup image on my
> still working slave drive. So I bought a replacement drive, actually an
> upgrade to a bigger faster drive which I was going to do anyway, installed
> it in the computer and restored the image to the new drive using the
> recovery environment. Re-booted and that was it, everything was up and
> running again using the new improved drive.
>
> Of course I still had the original drive sitting on the shelf in case of
> problems. As the new drive was a success I installed the old one in a USB 2
> caddy formatted it and it is now used to store regular backup images of both
> my installed HDDs.
>
> The cost of the extra drive and the USB 2 caddy are good value for the peace
> of mind that they bring.

Hi, Richard!
Nice report and a good example of "working smarter" too. :) 

I found myself stuck with a failing drive this summer. I was checking Event
Viewer for a reply to a question and noticed many "imminent hard drive
failure" notices. Had installed a new motherboard about a month earlier and
for whatever reason hadn't set the SMART options, thus no notices at boot
time about the problem. Windows' SMART service sure was loud about it
though and I wasn't going to argue.

I could have used the image restore method but instead used the software
that came with the drive. I had never tried that method and we get
questions about those tools now and then. Decided to take the opportunity
to get a "look-see" and had a current image if the drive software failed.
It worked but took a bit more time-wise than a restore would have.

I didn't have the option of making the replaced drive usable but I like
what you did with yours. Having an external backup drive is a very nice
plus.

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 12:55:44 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Richard wrote:
> "Sharon F" <sharonfDEL@ETEmvps.org> wrote in message
> news:o fDnzKU4EHA.208@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>
>>On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:26:43 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Right. That is the "Back up Drive Image" that PowerQuest (now Symantec)
>>>does. Their "PowerQuest Recovery Environment" "unpacks" the image to
>>>make the original again. And it does. But when I go to "Restart the
>>>computer", I am not in business. The restored drive will boot only
>>>as slave....not as Master. Something is wrong with the way the Master
>>>Boot Record is set up, (boot.ini looks correct), or something,
>>>I know not what.......which is why I'm here asking what or how.....
>>>It boots, past the black+logo Windows screen, to the blue Windows+
>>>logo screen, but *not* to the "loading your personal settings" screen.
>>>Ay, thereby hangs the rub.
>>
>>Bill, when I test my image software I use the working drive:
>>
>>C: has XP installed on it. J: is on a second physical drive and holds the
>>images which are also copied to a few CDs or a single DVD. When I restore,
>>I run the program from the CD or DVD disk that contains the program and
>>image. The image on J: is a backup of the CD/DVD image - in effect it is
>>"Plan B" and available if I run into problems with the CD/DVD restore. I
>>restore to C: -- the same drive, same partition where the image was made
>>from. I have had consistent success with this method.
>>
>>Although it is possible using Image for Windows, I've never tried
>>restoring
>>an image to a different drive and/or a different partition. I always put
>>it
>>back to the same one it originated from. My drives never move position on
>>the cables. I never change boot order in BIOS.
>>
>>Do I hold my breath when testing restore images? You better believe it!
>>It's risky because if it fails, I've just hosed what I was trying to
>>preserve. I periodically do so anyhow as a successful restore is what I
>>want when and if it's needed. As a cushion, I always have available at
>>least one tested restore image that has successfully restored the system
>>in
>>the past.
>>
>>I think this is where we part ways when working with images? It sounds to
>>me like you're restoring to a different drive/partition instead of to the
>>original; possibly changing boot order to test the results. And if I
>>understand your history correctly, that second copy never boots or runs
>>correctly when you try to boot with it as the master drive. Since I've
>>never tried this method (creating a second copy of XP on a second drive),
>>I
>>have no idea where things go wrong for you.
>>
>>Your restored image always works correctly when the drive is left in the
>>same position it was in when the restore process was performed. Perhaps
>>that means something and is significant to the trouble you've been having.
>>Perhaps you need to pull that second drive. Place it in master position.
>>Then run the restore from outside of Windows (you would have to since
>>you've pulled the first drive for the moment) and on the second drive. It
>>should then become a true "replacement" for your regular primary drive?
>>
>>FWIW, you're actually working smarter than I am, using your second drive
>>as
>>the test bed for restoring images instead of the main drive. If the
>>restore
>>goes bonkers, you still have your working drive untouched. I risk the
>>drive
>>but the image program's good reputation and the past successes I've had
>>with it make the risk reasonable for me.
>>
>>--
>>Sharon F
>>MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User
>
>
> Sharon,
> I took my own testing one stage further and restored the image of my main
> (boot) drive to a new drive straight from the computer store. My thinking
> was thus: Pretend the main drive has failed. I have a backup image on my
> still working slave drive. So I bought a replacement drive, actually an
> upgrade to a bigger faster drive which I was going to do anyway, installed
> it in the computer and restored the image to the new drive using the
> recovery environment. Re-booted and that was it, everything was up and
> running again using the new improved drive.
>
> Of course I still had the original drive sitting on the shelf in case of
> problems. As the new drive was a success I installed the old one in a USB 2
> caddy formatted it and it is now used to store regular backup images of both
> my installed HDDs.
>
> The cost of the extra drive and the USB 2 caddy are good value for the peace
> of mind that they bring.
>
> Richard.
>
>
Right you are, Richard. That's security. I operate similarly, except
that I have the two drives in one frame, and there are certain
folders (e-mail and letter mail) that I update from one to
the other periodically. And some of my booting problems (but
not all) seem to be diminishing.

Bill L.
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 12:47:35 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

William B. Lurie wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>> In news:Xns95BCA22F28743idispcom@216.196.97.142,
>> DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t> typed:
>>
>>
>>> while it may be true that eMachines are less expensive
>>> machines, what
>>> machines out there come with a regular windows CD anymore ?
>>
>>
>>
>> I assume that, by "a *regular* windows CD," you mean an
>> installation CD as opposed to a restore CD or a hidden restore
>> partition.
>>
> Yes, a genuine XP Installation CD, from which the OS
> can be installed, or maybe even was installed.
>
>> The answer is many. All Dell machines do, and I believe Gateways
>> do too. And virtually all of the machines that are custom-built
>> by local vendors.
>>
> Well, Compaq and HP, I believe, do not. This has been
> "live and learn" for me. My 98, even though made by an
> OEM, had a full Installation CD. eMachines was exceptionally
> good about mail-in replacements for a hard drive and also
> a floppy drive that failed in the first six months, but
> no help at all in fixing software glitches. Their answer always is
> "The Restore CD will get you back to a new clean system".
>
>> There are certainly some national brands that don't, but those
>> can be (and should be, as far as I'm concerned) avoided.

A recent HP laptop I purchased for my boss came with both restore and XP
installations CD's
--
Michael Stevens MS-MVP XP
xpnews@bogusmichaelstevenstech.com
http://michaelstevenstech.com
For a better newsgroup experience. Setup a newsreader.
http://michaelstevenstech.com/outlookexpressnewreader.h...
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 5:29:17 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

"Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote...
> DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t> typed:
>
> > what
> > machines out there come with a regular windows CD anymore ?
>
> I assume that, by "a *regular* windows CD," you mean an
> installation CD as opposed to a restore CD or a hidden restore
> partition.
>
> The answer is many. All Dell machines do, and I believe Gateways
> do too. And virtually all of the machines that are custom-built
> by local vendors.

This has been a most illuminating discussion 8-(.

FWIW, I just checked my couple-of-weeks-old Gateway 503GR, and what I
*thought* was a "regular windows CD" is just a shrinkwrapped
official-looking (green, MS and Windows logos, etc) 10-page pamphlet and a
piece of stiff cardboard which made it seem like there was a CD inside; the
"certificate of authenticity" sticker had been peeled off and put on the
back of the computer by the manufacturer. There is a Gateway restore DVD.

So the question is, how badly have I been f***ed?
What will I be unable to do that I could do with a "regular" CD?

> There are certainly some national brands that don't, but those
> can be (and should be, as far as I'm concerned) avoided.

Unfortunately, this isn't part of the specs, and even the moderately
sophisticated single-user is unlikely to think to dig deeper. To someone
who buys a new computer every few years for personal use (as opposed buying
or working on dozens per year), this is something the need for which, or the
possibility of not being included, has probably not been made apparent
before.

But with computers, even full packages, running as low as $3-500, how many
people are going to pay an extra $200 (or even $100) to get a 'regular' OS
CD?

<Dan S. again>
>> really, how much does it cost to provide a
> > 'real'
> > (even an OEM type) windows CD with a PC purchase ? really, the
> > oem
> > already bouught the license from M$, includes the all the files
> > in a
> > folder on hard drive, so how much can the 'physical' CD cost ?
> > maybe
> > $1 each.

I doubt the physical CD cost is the issue. (Wouldn't that have to come from
Microsoft anyway? The little package I thought was the CD seems to have.)
Probably, they get a cheaper licence from Microsoft to do it this way,
though I'm not sure what the advantage to MS is that they'd authorize and
give a deep discount for not providing a 'regular CD'. If it really is a $1
or $5 difference, then shame on the manufacturer. If it's something
substantial (say $50 instead of $100 per machine), then shame on Microsoft.
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 5:36:48 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

I have a stupid question. Is the product key written on the CD itself, or
are all the CDs the same and the key is just a unique alphanumeric string
used for activation/control/etc?

As I noted on another post to this thread, my Gateway came without a
'regular windows CD', but did have the MS certificate of authenticity with
product key.

"Michael Solomon (MS-MVP)" <user@#notme.com> wrote ...
> William, you cannot borrow someone else's CD for this purpose as the
repair
> install requires the input of the CD key. Doing so would either result in
a
> rejection or causing problems for the original owner if and when he tries
to
> activate his setup again if necessary.
>
> The best way around this and the best insurance against this type of
> situation is an actual XP CD as opposed to some proprietary OEM. The cost
> of the OS on your PC as provided by the manufacturer is negligible and
> frankly, they don't do you much good by giving you this type of setup
> because it denies you access to tools available in retail versions. If
you
> want the availability of this option now and in the future, it's going to
> require a purchase.
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 5:36:49 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

In news:o YwGS0t4EHA.4040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl,
ggull <ggullSPAM@NOTrcn.com> typed:

>I have a stupid question. Is the product key written on the CD
> itself, or are all the CDs the same and the key is just a
> unique
> alphanumeric string used for activation/control/etc?


The product key is not on the CD. If they were, each CD would
have to be made individually, and the cost would be *much*
higher.

All CDs are not quite the same, but all Retail Full versions are
the same, all Upgrade versions the same, and all generic OEM
versions the same.

--
Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
Please reply to the newsgroup
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 6:03:06 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:29:17 -0500, ggull wrote:

> This has been a most illuminating discussion 8-(.
>
> FWIW, I just checked my couple-of-weeks-old Gateway 503GR, and what I
> *thought* was a "regular windows CD" is just a shrinkwrapped
> official-looking (green, MS and Windows logos, etc) 10-page pamphlet and a
> piece of stiff cardboard which made it seem like there was a CD inside; the
> "certificate of authenticity" sticker had been peeled off and put on the
> back of the computer by the manufacturer. There is a Gateway restore DVD.
>
> So the question is, how badly have I been f***ed?
> What will I be unable to do that I could do with a "regular" CD?

This is pretty normal for OEM machines.

Downside: You probably won't be able to use troubleshooting methods that
require access to a standard copy of an XP CD.

Possible upside: The OEM may have provided alternative repair options.
Check any and all documentation you can find that covers "restore" and
"repair" methods. You might find this info:
- in the hard copy manual that came with the system
- in help documents or system manuals that Gateway may have placed on the
hard drive
- in help documents on the restore CD (or in your case, DVD)
- at the Gateway site in their technical support pages

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 7:29:10 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Both Sharon and Ken have answered your specific questions and I apologize
for not getting back to you sooner but I've been offline.

I'll just add a few specifics. First, most recovery routines, be they based
on files kept in a separate often hidden hard drive partition or supplied on
a disk rarely include either the ability for a repair install or use of the
recovery console. The repair install option I believe is crucial,
especially in light of the fact most people don't back up and the only form
of recovery most OEMs provide is a full image restore that puts the system
in the condition it was on the day you brought it home.

Second, your point about purchasing an inexpensive PC is well taken but one
of the reasons they are able to sell the PC at such a low price is because
of the ability to provide this type of OEM configuration. In fairness,
there's not a lot of profit in PCs. If there were manufacturers would be
fighting to compete in this business as opposed to selling off operations
and merging with others. In other words, the number of players would be
increasing, not decreasing.

That said, the business model is really of no concern to you nor does it
help based on your original question. The best I can suggest is, when you
buy, push the manufacturer or retailer for a retail CD or an OEM CD that is
essentially the same as and provides all of the options that exist on the
actual retail CD. Often, you can get a break on the price of an actual XP
CD through these manufacturers. Tell them its a deal breaker if you don't
get such a disk. If they tell you its the same, tell them you know the
difference and some such disks don't offer the same tools and options as an
actual XP CD.

Understand what I am saying. It's one thing to post such a question and
complaint in a public newsgroup but if you really want change, then you and
other consumers must be proactive on the subject.

Also, you might look into local shops who build PCs to order. You can often
get more bang for the buck and while they usually supply an OEM version of
XP, this one is not crippled in that it usually has all the same options and
tools as the retail version with the one exception that it cannot be moved
to a new system when you decide to buy such a system.

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"ggull" <ggullSPAM@NOTrcn.com> wrote in message
news:o SNQ5vt4EHA.1264@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> "Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote...
>> DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t> typed:
>>
>> > what
>> > machines out there come with a regular windows CD anymore ?
>>
>> I assume that, by "a *regular* windows CD," you mean an
>> installation CD as opposed to a restore CD or a hidden restore
>> partition.
>>
>> The answer is many. All Dell machines do, and I believe Gateways
>> do too. And virtually all of the machines that are custom-built
>> by local vendors.
>
> This has been a most illuminating discussion 8-(.
>
> FWIW, I just checked my couple-of-weeks-old Gateway 503GR, and what I
> *thought* was a "regular windows CD" is just a shrinkwrapped
> official-looking (green, MS and Windows logos, etc) 10-page pamphlet and a
> piece of stiff cardboard which made it seem like there was a CD inside;
> the
> "certificate of authenticity" sticker had been peeled off and put on the
> back of the computer by the manufacturer. There is a Gateway restore DVD.
>
> So the question is, how badly have I been f***ed?
> What will I be unable to do that I could do with a "regular" CD?
>
>> There are certainly some national brands that don't, but those
>> can be (and should be, as far as I'm concerned) avoided.
>
> Unfortunately, this isn't part of the specs, and even the moderately
> sophisticated single-user is unlikely to think to dig deeper. To someone
> who buys a new computer every few years for personal use (as opposed
> buying
> or working on dozens per year), this is something the need for which, or
> the
> possibility of not being included, has probably not been made apparent
> before.
>
> But with computers, even full packages, running as low as $3-500, how many
> people are going to pay an extra $200 (or even $100) to get a 'regular' OS
> CD?
>
> <Dan S. again>
>>> really, how much does it cost to provide a
>> > 'real'
>> > (even an OEM type) windows CD with a PC purchase ? really, the
>> > oem
>> > already bouught the license from M$, includes the all the files
>> > in a
>> > folder on hard drive, so how much can the 'physical' CD cost ?
>> > maybe
>> > $1 each.
>
> I doubt the physical CD cost is the issue. (Wouldn't that have to come
> from
> Microsoft anyway? The little package I thought was the CD seems to have.)
> Probably, they get a cheaper licence from Microsoft to do it this way,
> though I'm not sure what the advantage to MS is that they'd authorize and
> give a deep discount for not providing a 'regular CD'. If it really is a
> $1
> or $5 difference, then shame on the manufacturer. If it's something
> substantial (say $50 instead of $100 per machine), then shame on
> Microsoft.
>
>
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 11:21:05 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

"Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote ...
> ggull <ggullSPAM@NOTrcn.com> typed:
>
> >I have a stupid question. Is the product key written on the CD
> > itself, or are all the CDs the same and the key is just a
> > unique
> > alphanumeric string used for activation/control/etc?
>
> The product key is not on the CD. If they were, each CD would
> have to be made individually, and the cost would be *much*
> higher.

Thanks for confirming what I suspected, based on that very consideration.
(I assume the key is somehow encrypted/hashed/whatever so that just any
random string won't work :-)>

To get back to the post from Michael Solomon I responded to, where he says
"William, you cannot borrow someone else's CD for this purpose as the repair
install requires the input of the CD key. Doing so would either result in a
rejection or causing problems for the original owner if and when he tries to
activate his setup again if necessary."

then it seems that perhaps one *could* borrow another CD, but use one's own
legitimate product key to activate the install. Or is the algorithm smart
enough to know I have (say) an OEM key that should not work with a Retail
Full CD (the case this thread has been considering)? At least if the key
does not reside in the installed software, it seems I wouldn't cause
problems for the original owner if I only use my own key.

> All CDs are not quite the same, but all Retail Full versions are
> the same, all Upgrade versions the same, and all generic OEM
> versions the same.
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 11:21:06 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

In news:o E3Yf0w4EHA.2600@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl,
ggull <ggullSPAM@NOTrcn.com> typed:

> "Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote ...
>> ggull <ggullSPAM@NOTrcn.com> typed:
>>
>> >I have a stupid question. Is the product key written on the
>> >CD
>> > itself, or are all the CDs the same and the key is just a
>> > unique
>> > alphanumeric string used for activation/control/etc?
>>
>> The product key is not on the CD. If they were, each CD would
>> have to be made individually, and the cost would be *much*
>> higher.
>
> Thanks for confirming what I suspected, based on that very
> consideration. (I assume the key is somehow
> encrypted/hashed/whatever
> so that just any random string won't work :-)>


You're welcome. There's clearly some sort of algorithm applied to
the string, and only keys that work with that algorithm will be
accepted.


>
> To get back to the post from Michael Solomon I responded to,
> where he
> says "William, you cannot borrow someone else's CD for this
> purpose
> as the repair install requires the input of the CD key. Doing
> so
> would either result in a rejection or causing problems for the
> original owner if and when he tries to activate his setup again
> if
> necessary."
>
> then it seems that perhaps one *could* borrow another CD, but
> use
> one's own legitimate product key to activate the install.


As long as it's the same type (Retail vs OEM and Full vs
Upgrade), yes you could. I made this point in an earlier message
a day or two ago, but I don't recall whether it was in this
thread or not. The point is that you have to use your own product
key; the CD itself doesn't matter. To put it another way, it's
really the Product Key you buy; the CD itself is worth only
pennies.


> Or is the
> algorithm smart enough to know I have (say) an OEM key that
> should
> not work with a Retail Full CD


Yes it is. As I said, the type of CD (Retail vs OEM and Full vs
Upgrade) has to match the key you use.


> (the case this thread has been
> considering)? At least if the key does not reside in the
> installed
> software, it seems I wouldn't cause problems for the original
> owner
> if I only use my own key.


Correct.

--
Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
Please reply to the newsgroup



>> All CDs are not quite the same, but all Retail Full versions
>> are
>> the same, all Upgrade versions the same, and all generic OEM
>> versions the same.
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 11:37:16 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

"Sharon F" <sharonfDEL@ETEmvps.org> wrote ...
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:29:17 -0500, ggull wrote:
> > FWIW, I just checked my couple-of-weeks-old Gateway 503GR<snip>
> > There is [only] a Gateway restore DVD [and no OS CD]
> > What will I be unable to do that I could do with a "regular" CD?
>
> This is pretty normal for OEM machines.
>
> Downside: You probably won't be able to use troubleshooting methods that
> require access to a standard copy of an XP CD.
>
> Possible upside: The OEM may have provided alternative repair options.
> Check any and all documentation you can find that covers "restore" and
> "repair" methods. You might find this info:
> - in the hard copy manual that came with the system
> - in help documents or system manuals that Gateway may have placed on the
> hard drive
> - in help documents on the restore CD (or in your case, DVD)
> - at the Gateway site in their technical support pages

Thanks very much for the suggestions. There is something called a
"non-destructive restore", but that may only leave 'data' undestroyed, not
installed software.
Anonymous
December 16, 2004 1:29:36 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

You make a lot of good points and suggestions here. I'll definitely try to
score, free or for modest charge, a retail or equivalent CD from Gateway.
Further question -- if that doesn't pan out, and since the need for the
'repair install' option is hopefully low probability, what would be the
downside to getting a full retail CD only if/when needed? (Other, of
course, than waiting for it to arrive.)

It's certainly a good point that the place to put pressure is through the
retailer/manufacturer, and not whining on a newsgroup. But I think that
for 95 or 99% of consumers this issue is not apparent until, possibly years
later or possibly never, it comes around to bite them in the middle of
disaster. It just never occurs that they have been provided a bowdlerized
operating system, without these nifty features they may have read of (and
that are proudly touted)

As to the shake-out in computer manufacturers .. it may or may not be good
in the long run, but makes this an excellent time to shop for a low or
middle-end system.

To pick a couple of nits:

I am aware of the shops that build PCs to order. That was one of the first
options I investigated, and at least in the current market they can't come
close to competing with commodity-level PCs. I did go that route about 8-10
years ago (when GB hard drives were newish), and was able to go high end for
the time on storage while economizing in other respects, but that was a
pretty specific configuration for specific purpose, and I think even that
wouldn't apply today.

As to caring about the 'business model' that results in this situation, it
may be 'none of our business', but even apart from simply liking to know the
mysterious forces which govern our lives it seems relevant in that knowing
the motivation for a behavior is often the first step in persuading someone
to change that behavior. Do the manufacturers omit the system disc simply
to save the reproduction costs? or because they figure the mass of users
may get in more trouble with it than their restore disc options? or are
they forbidden by their licencing agreement with Microsoft? and if the
latter, of what benefit is that to MS? The answer may affect how I talk to
the manufacturer.


"Michael Solomon (MS-MVP)" <user@#notme.com> wrote in message
news:o bG1AZw4EHA.1296@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Both Sharon and Ken have answered your specific questions and I apologize
> for not getting back to you sooner but I've been offline.
>
> I'll just add a few specifics. First, most recovery routines, be they
based
> on files kept in a separate often hidden hard drive partition or supplied
on
> a disk rarely include either the ability for a repair install or use of
the
> recovery console. The repair install option I believe is crucial,
> especially in light of the fact most people don't back up and the only
form
> of recovery most OEMs provide is a full image restore that puts the system
> in the condition it was on the day you brought it home.
>
> Second, your point about purchasing an inexpensive PC is well taken but
one
> of the reasons they are able to sell the PC at such a low price is because
> of the ability to provide this type of OEM configuration. In fairness,
> there's not a lot of profit in PCs. If there were manufacturers would be
> fighting to compete in this business as opposed to selling off operations
> and merging with others. In other words, the number of players would be
> increasing, not decreasing.
>
> That said, the business model is really of no concern to you nor does it
> help based on your original question. The best I can suggest is, when you
> buy, push the manufacturer or retailer for a retail CD or an OEM CD that
is
> essentially the same as and provides all of the options that exist on the
> actual retail CD. Often, you can get a break on the price of an actual XP
> CD through these manufacturers. Tell them its a deal breaker if you don't
> get such a disk. If they tell you its the same, tell them you know the
> difference and some such disks don't offer the same tools and options as
an
> actual XP CD.
>
> Understand what I am saying. It's one thing to post such a question and
> complaint in a public newsgroup but if you really want change, then you
and
> other consumers must be proactive on the subject.
>
> Also, you might look into local shops who build PCs to order. You can
often
> get more bang for the buck and while they usually supply an OEM version of
> XP, this one is not crippled in that it usually has all the same options
and
> tools as the retail version with the one exception that it cannot be moved
> to a new system when you decide to buy such a system.
>
> --
> Michael Solomon MS-MVP
> Windows Shell/User
> Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
> DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/
>
> "ggull" <ggullSPAM@NOTrcn.com> wrote in message
> news:o SNQ5vt4EHA.1264@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> > "Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote...
> >> DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t> typed:
> >>
> >> > what
> >> > machines out there come with a regular windows CD anymore ?
> >>
> >> I assume that, by "a *regular* windows CD," you mean an
> >> installation CD as opposed to a restore CD or a hidden restore
> >> partition.
> >>
> >> The answer is many. All Dell machines do, and I believe Gateways
> >> do too. And virtually all of the machines that are custom-built
> >> by local vendors.
> >
> > This has been a most illuminating discussion 8-(.
> >
> > FWIW, I just checked my couple-of-weeks-old Gateway 503GR, and what I
> > *thought* was a "regular windows CD" is just a shrinkwrapped
> > official-looking (green, MS and Windows logos, etc) 10-page pamphlet and
a
> > piece of stiff cardboard which made it seem like there was a CD inside;
> > the
> > "certificate of authenticity" sticker had been peeled off and put on the
> > back of the computer by the manufacturer. There is a Gateway restore
DVD.
> >
> > So the question is, how badly have I been f***ed?
> > What will I be unable to do that I could do with a "regular" CD?
> >
> >> There are certainly some national brands that don't, but those
> >> can be (and should be, as far as I'm concerned) avoided.
> >
> > Unfortunately, this isn't part of the specs, and even the moderately
> > sophisticated single-user is unlikely to think to dig deeper. To
someone
> > who buys a new computer every few years for personal use (as opposed
> > buying
> > or working on dozens per year), this is something the need for which, or
> > the
> > possibility of not being included, has probably not been made apparent
> > before.
> >
> > But with computers, even full packages, running as low as $3-500, how
many
> > people are going to pay an extra $200 (or even $100) to get a 'regular'
OS
> > CD?
> >
> > <Dan S. again>
> >>> really, how much does it cost to provide a
> >> > 'real'
> >> > (even an OEM type) windows CD with a PC purchase ? really, the
> >> > oem
> >> > already bouught the license from M$, includes the all the files
> >> > in a
> >> > folder on hard drive, so how much can the 'physical' CD cost ?
> >> > maybe
> >> > $1 each.
> >
> > I doubt the physical CD cost is the issue. (Wouldn't that have to come
> > from
> > Microsoft anyway? The little package I thought was the CD seems to
have.)
> > Probably, they get a cheaper licence from Microsoft to do it this way,
> > though I'm not sure what the advantage to MS is that they'd authorize
and
> > give a deep discount for not providing a 'regular CD'. If it really is
a
> > $1
> > or $5 difference, then shame on the manufacturer. If it's something
> > substantial (say $50 instead of $100 per machine), then shame on
> > Microsoft.
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
December 16, 2004 5:27:12 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Richard wrote:
> "Sharon F" <sharonfDEL@ETEmvps.org> wrote in message
> news:o fDnzKU4EHA.208@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>
>>On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:26:43 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Right. That is the "Back up Drive Image" that PowerQuest (now Symantec)
>>>does. Their "PowerQuest Recovery Environment" "unpacks" the image to
>>>make the original again. And it does. But when I go to "Restart the
>>>computer", I am not in business. The restored drive will boot only
>>>as slave....not as Master. Something is wrong with the way the Master
>>>Boot Record is set up, (boot.ini looks correct), or something,
>>>I know not what.......which is why I'm here asking what or how.....
>>>It boots, past the black+logo Windows screen, to the blue Windows+
>>>logo screen, but *not* to the "loading your personal settings" screen.
>>>Ay, thereby hangs the rub.
>>
>>Bill, when I test my image software I use the working drive:
>>
>>C: has XP installed on it. J: is on a second physical drive and holds the
>>images which are also copied to a few CDs or a single DVD. When I restore,
>>I run the program from the CD or DVD disk that contains the program and
>>image. The image on J: is a backup of the CD/DVD image - in effect it is
>>"Plan B" and available if I run into problems with the CD/DVD restore. I
>>restore to C: -- the same drive, same partition where the image was made
>>from. I have had consistent success with this method.
>>
>>Although it is possible using Image for Windows, I've never tried
>>restoring
>>an image to a different drive and/or a different partition. I always put
>>it
>>back to the same one it originated from. My drives never move position on
>>the cables. I never change boot order in BIOS.
>>
>>Do I hold my breath when testing restore images? You better believe it!
>>It's risky because if it fails, I've just hosed what I was trying to
>>preserve. I periodically do so anyhow as a successful restore is what I
>>want when and if it's needed. As a cushion, I always have available at
>>least one tested restore image that has successfully restored the system
>>in
>>the past.
>>
>>I think this is where we part ways when working with images? It sounds to
>>me like you're restoring to a different drive/partition instead of to the
>>original; possibly changing boot order to test the results. And if I
>>understand your history correctly, that second copy never boots or runs
>>correctly when you try to boot with it as the master drive. Since I've
>>never tried this method (creating a second copy of XP on a second drive),
>>I
>>have no idea where things go wrong for you.
>>
>>Your restored image always works correctly when the drive is left in the
>>same position it was in when the restore process was performed. Perhaps
>>that means something and is significant to the trouble you've been having.
>>Perhaps you need to pull that second drive. Place it in master position.
>>Then run the restore from outside of Windows (you would have to since
>>you've pulled the first drive for the moment) and on the second drive. It
>>should then become a true "replacement" for your regular primary drive?
>>
>>FWIW, you're actually working smarter than I am, using your second drive
>>as
>>the test bed for restoring images instead of the main drive. If the
>>restore
>>goes bonkers, you still have your working drive untouched. I risk the
>>drive
>>but the image program's good reputation and the past successes I've had
>>with it make the risk reasonable for me.
>>
>>--
>>Sharon F
>>MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User
>
>
> Sharon,
> I took my own testing one stage further and restored the image of my main
> (boot) drive to a new drive straight from the computer store. My thinking
> was thus: Pretend the main drive has failed. I have a backup image on my
> still working slave drive. So I bought a replacement drive, actually an
> upgrade to a bigger faster drive which I was going to do anyway, installed
> it in the computer and restored the image to the new drive using the
> recovery environment. Re-booted and that was it, everything was up and
> running again using the new improved drive.
>
> Of course I still had the original drive sitting on the shelf in case of
> problems. As the new drive was a success I installed the old one in a USB 2
> caddy formatted it and it is now used to store regular backup images of both
> my installed HDDs.
>
> The cost of the extra drive and the USB 2 caddy are good value for the peace
> of mind that they bring.
>
> Richard.
>
>
Richard echos exactly what I have been trying to do for a
year now, with very spotty success. But it's encouraging to
know that Richard and Sharon think as I do and do as I'd
like to do. Maybe I'm not as queer as some people think.

--
William B. Lurie
Anonymous
December 16, 2004 7:06:41 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:27:12 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:

> Richard echos exactly what I have been trying to do for a
> year now, with very spotty success. But it's encouraging to
> know that Richard and Sharon think as I do and do as I'd
> like to do. Maybe I'm not as queer as some people think.

You're fine, Bill. Learning new software can be tricky business. Especially
something more advanced like imaging software. Do they still have user
groups for Ghost or Drive Image? One of the reasons I chose Image for
Windows is the good support offered by the company (Terabyte Unlimited). If
I get into trouble, I know that they can walk me through the rough spots.

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User
Anonymous
December 16, 2004 11:10:58 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Sharon F wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:27:12 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:
>
>
>>Richard echos exactly what I have been trying to do for a
>>year now, with very spotty success. But it's encouraging to
>>know that Richard and Sharon think as I do and do as I'd
>>like to do. Maybe I'm not as queer as some people think.
>
>
> You're fine, Bill. Learning new software can be tricky business. Especially
> something more advanced like imaging software. Do they still have user
> groups for Ghost or Drive Image? One of the reasons I chose Image for
> Windows is the good support offered by the company (Terabyte Unlimited). If
> I get into trouble, I know that they can walk me through the rough spots.
>
Hmmmm... User Group for Drive Image? Never saw one, but if any
kind reader has a link to one, I'd 'preciate it. I had bad luck with
Terabyte a few years ago (Boot Magic I think, had my usual poblem).
It took over all my boot-ups and I had trouble rassling control
back.

--
William B. Lurie
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 2:13:25 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

William B. Lurie wrote:
> Sharon F wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:27:12 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Richard echos exactly what I have been trying to do for a
>>> year now, with very spotty success. But it's encouraging to
>>> know that Richard and Sharon think as I do and do as I'd
>>> like to do. Maybe I'm not as queer as some people think.
>>
>>
>>
>> You're fine, Bill. Learning new software can be tricky business.
>> Especially
>> something more advanced like imaging software. Do they still have user
>> groups for Ghost or Drive Image? One of the reasons I chose Image for
>> Windows is the good support offered by the company (Terabyte
>> Unlimited). If
>> I get into trouble, I know that they can walk me through the rough spots.
>
Related to this same area of operation, Sharon, I still have
a few questions for which you might have answers. The 'HELP'
info supplied in RC for fixmbr and fixboot is really minimal.
Might there be some KB articles or text, telling what they
really do, and how to use them? Note that FIXMBR says it is
usable only on an X86 based system. I guess that anybody who
might use FIXMBR would know whether or not the system is X86....

And FIXBOOT says it writes a new boot sector. That's all it says.
So in one of my Drive Copy and Restore operations, I get to a
system where it boots all the way, past blue logo "Loading your
personal settings" when I boot to this OS as set as HDD-1 on my
BIOS. But when placed as Master on the cable, BIOS set for HDD-0,
it hangs at the blue logo screen that only says Windows. So I
guess, not quite correctly, that FIXBOOT should fix the boot so
that it will boot all the way. It does not, when alone on the
cable, jumpered and set as Master, I'd like it to boot all the
way, as it did before I moved the hard drive over.

This is all in line with the goals we discussed, in the name of
having a guaranteed operable substitute to plug in, in the
case that happened to me two days ago, when power went out
while disk transfer operations were in place, and I haven't
got that drive fixed yet. I'm as close as you see in the
preceding paragraph.....hanging at the light blue logo screen.

--
William B. Lurie
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 2:21:57 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:13:25 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:

> Related to this same area of operation, Sharon, I still have
> a few questions for which you might have answers. The 'HELP'
> info supplied in RC for fixmbr and fixboot is really minimal.
> Might there be some KB articles or text, telling what they
> really do, and how to use them?

A few links about the recovery console from the online copy of the XP
Resource Kit:
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/Window...
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/Window...

> Note that FIXMBR says it is
> usable only on an X86 based system. I guess that anybody who
> might use FIXMBR would know whether or not the system is X86....

"X86" relates to a family of processors and describes a type of computer
architecture that has been in use for quite some time. Most, if not all,
home PCs fall into this category.

> But when placed as Master on the cable, BIOS set for HDD-0,
> it hangs at the blue logo screen that only says Windows. So I
> guess, not quite correctly, that FIXBOOT should fix the boot so
> that it will boot all the way. It does not, when alone on the
> cable, jumpered and set as Master, I'd like it to boot all the
> way, as it did before I moved the hard drive over.

I think this is where moving the drive comes into play and is working
against you. Forget the imaging factor for a moment. If you physically move
any XP installation, you are *very* likely to run into a situation where a
repair install is needed. Not only is the boot record a problem but all
internal links to a particular drive position need to be changed. FIXBOOT
only addresses the boot record.

Also... We're still missing a step between making the clone and moving it
so that it will boot from another position. I don't know what it is. It may
be something as simple as skipping the initial boot of the cloned drive
while it's in the slave position or it may be something more intricate. As
I said before, Bill, I don't even "go there" with my imaging software. 1) I
stick with the easier route of restoring to a drive that's in the same
position that the original image was taken from. 2) The overall method will
be similar in all imaging products but the steps to get there will vary. I
use a different product.

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 4:29:48 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Sharon F wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:13:25 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:
>
>
>>Related to this same area of operation, Sharon, I still have
>>a few questions for which you might have answers. The 'HELP'
>>info supplied in RC for fixmbr and fixboot is really minimal.
>>Might there be some KB articles or text, telling what they
>>really do, and how to use them?
>
>
> A few links about the recovery console from the online copy of the XP
> Resource Kit:
> http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/Window...
> http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/Window...
>
>
>>Note that FIXMBR says it is
>>usable only on an X86 based system. I guess that anybody who
>>might use FIXMBR would know whether or not the system is X86....
>
>
> "X86" relates to a family of processors and describes a type of computer
> architecture that has been in use for quite some time. Most, if not all,
> home PCs fall into this category.
>
>
>>But when placed as Master on the cable, BIOS set for HDD-0,
>>it hangs at the blue logo screen that only says Windows. So I
>>guess, not quite correctly, that FIXBOOT should fix the boot so
>>that it will boot all the way. It does not, when alone on the
>>cable, jumpered and set as Master, I'd like it to boot all the
>>way, as it did before I moved the hard drive over.
>
>
> I think this is where moving the drive comes into play and is working
> against you. Forget the imaging factor for a moment. If you physically move
> any XP installation, you are *very* likely to run into a situation where a
> repair install is needed. Not only is the boot record a problem but all
> internal links to a particular drive position need to be changed. FIXBOOT
> only addresses the boot record.
>
> Also... We're still missing a step between making the clone and moving it
> so that it will boot from another position. I don't know what it is. It may
> be something as simple as skipping the initial boot of the cloned drive
> while it's in the slave position or it may be something more intricate. As
> I said before, Bill, I don't even "go there" with my imaging software. 1) I
> stick with the easier route of restoring to a drive that's in the same
> position that the original image was taken from. 2) The overall method will
> be similar in all imaging products but the steps to get there will vary. I
> use a different product.
>
Thanks for those links, Sharon, but in my browser (Mozilla)
I am not able to do anything to make them short enough to grab.
Could you post them some other way, perhaps?

I agree, we have that fundamental link missing, and I was
hoping that perhaps one of the other MVPs might have been there, done
that. As you said, if you lose your hard drive's OS, you restore
it from an image, to the same drive......but you're skating on
thin ice, and holding your breath, until you find out that the
restore worked. I'm still playing suspenders and a belt.....

What's still gnawing at me, is that I have done it successfully,
but sporadically. So it can be done; I'm trying to find a
procedure which works every time, which would include the time
when I really have to have it.

--
William B. Lurie
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 4:29:49 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Actually, you appear to be the one skating on thin ice. I have my image
files saved in a few places. If my hard drive tanks, restoring the image to
a new drive is no big deal, I've done it several times. It appears from all
the problems you've had trying to use an alternate drive for this purpose
that you are the one skating on thin ice. While I'm sure it has happened, I
can't recall ever seeing such an issue from someone simply restoring an
image.

That said, instead of the methodology you are using, have you considered
going to some sort of RAID setup? RAID 1 was designed to achieve precisely
what you are trying to do though through much different means.

Check the link below for an explanation of RAID1 array:
http://www.hardwarecentral.com/hardwarecentral/reviews/...

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"William B. Lurie" <billurie@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:uasbuZG5EHA.1404@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> Sharon F wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:13:25 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Related to this same area of operation, Sharon, I still have
>>>a few questions for which you might have answers. The 'HELP'
>>>info supplied in RC for fixmbr and fixboot is really minimal.
>>>Might there be some KB articles or text, telling what they
>>>really do, and how to use them?
>>
>>
>> A few links about the recovery console from the online copy of the XP
>> Resource Kit:
>> http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/Window...
>> http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/Window...
>>
>>
>>>Note that FIXMBR says it is
>>>usable only on an X86 based system. I guess that anybody who
>>>might use FIXMBR would know whether or not the system is X86....
>>
>>
>> "X86" relates to a family of processors and describes a type of computer
>> architecture that has been in use for quite some time. Most, if not all,
>> home PCs fall into this category.
>>>But when placed as Master on the cable, BIOS set for HDD-0,
>>>it hangs at the blue logo screen that only says Windows. So I
>>>guess, not quite correctly, that FIXBOOT should fix the boot so
>>>that it will boot all the way. It does not, when alone on the
>>>cable, jumpered and set as Master, I'd like it to boot all the
>>>way, as it did before I moved the hard drive over.
>>
>>
>> I think this is where moving the drive comes into play and is working
>> against you. Forget the imaging factor for a moment. If you physically
>> move
>> any XP installation, you are *very* likely to run into a situation where
>> a
>> repair install is needed. Not only is the boot record a problem but all
>> internal links to a particular drive position need to be changed. FIXBOOT
>> only addresses the boot record.
>>
>> Also... We're still missing a step between making the clone and moving it
>> so that it will boot from another position. I don't know what it is. It
>> may
>> be something as simple as skipping the initial boot of the cloned drive
>> while it's in the slave position or it may be something more intricate.
>> As
>> I said before, Bill, I don't even "go there" with my imaging software. 1)
>> I
>> stick with the easier route of restoring to a drive that's in the same
>> position that the original image was taken from. 2) The overall method
>> will
>> be similar in all imaging products but the steps to get there will vary.
>> I
>> use a different product.
> Thanks for those links, Sharon, but in my browser (Mozilla)
> I am not able to do anything to make them short enough to grab.
> Could you post them some other way, perhaps?
>
> I agree, we have that fundamental link missing, and I was
> hoping that perhaps one of the other MVPs might have been there, done
> that. As you said, if you lose your hard drive's OS, you restore
> it from an image, to the same drive......but you're skating on
> thin ice, and holding your breath, until you find out that the
> restore worked. I'm still playing suspenders and a belt.....
>
> What's still gnawing at me, is that I have done it successfully,
> but sporadically. So it can be done; I'm trying to find a
> procedure which works every time, which would include the time
> when I really have to have it.
>
> --
> William B. Lurie
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 11:37:16 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:29:48 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:

> As you said, if you lose your hard drive's OS, you restore
> it from an image, to the same drive......but you're skating on
> thin ice, and holding your breath, until you find out that the
> restore worked.

Only that very first time I performed a restore, Bill. Now that I have my
routine down, I no longer hold my breath :) 

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 11:58:39 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:29:48 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:

> Thanks for those links, Sharon, but in my browser (Mozilla)
> I am not able to do anything to make them short enough to grab.
> Could you post them some other way, perhaps?

Try the "search microsoft.com" box on http://www.microsoft.com and search
for recovery console

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User
Anonymous
December 18, 2004 9:54:38 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Michael Solomon (MS-MVP) wrote:
> Actually, you appear to be the one skating on thin ice. I have my image
> files saved in a few places. If my hard drive tanks, restoring the image to
> a new drive is no big deal, I've done it several times. It appears from all
> the problems you've had trying to use an alternate drive for this purpose
> that you are the one skating on thin ice. While I'm sure it has happened, I
> can't recall ever seeing such an issue from someone simply restoring an
> image.
>
> That said, instead of the methodology you are using, have you considered
> going to some sort of RAID setup? RAID 1 was designed to achieve precisely
> what you are trying to do though through much different means.
>
> Check the link below for an explanation of RAID1 array:
> http://www.hardwarecentral.com/hardwarecentral/reviews/...
>
Say, that's a clever idea, Michael. I just gave it a quick glance,
but I have no objection to having two 40 GB drives spinning always,
with everything identical on the two drives. Then when one fails,
the other is there, up-to-date. I'll assume, until I read further,
that there is a way to wipe the failed drive clean and reformat
it, and have it put back in service as an operating clone. Or put
a new one in and have it automatically start up as a clone. Thank
you, I'll look into it.

William B. Lurie
Anonymous
December 19, 2004 8:06:59 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

William B. Lurie wrote:
> Michael Solomon (MS-MVP) wrote:
>
>> Actually, you appear to be the one skating on thin ice. I have my
>> image files saved in a few places. If my hard drive tanks, restoring
>> the image to a new drive is no big deal, I've done it several times.
>> It appears from all the problems you've had trying to use an alternate
>> drive for this purpose that you are the one skating on thin ice.
>> While I'm sure it has happened, I can't recall ever seeing such an
>> issue from someone simply restoring an image.
>>
>> That said, instead of the methodology you are using, have you
>> considered going to some sort of RAID setup? RAID 1 was designed to
>> achieve precisely what you are trying to do though through much
>> different means.
>>
>> Check the link below for an explanation of RAID1 array:
>> http://www.hardwarecentral.com/hardwarecentral/reviews/...
>>
> Say, that's a clever idea, Michael. I just gave it a quick glance,
> but I have no objection to having two 40 GB drives spinning always,
> with everything identical on the two drives. Then when one fails,
> the other is there, up-to-date. I'll assume, until I read further,
> that there is a way to wipe the failed drive clean and reformat
> it, and have it put back in service as an operating clone. Or put
> a new one in and have it automatically start up as a clone. Thank
> you, I'll look into it.
>
> William B. Lurie
As a sort of 'final' word on the subject, vis-a-vis cloning
hard drives, which was what got me/us into this question of
what it takes to boot the cloned drive:

About 4 months ago, Richard Urban wrote here, what steps he
used, to do it reliably, and I thought I was following in his
footsteps. Well, I was, in almost all respects, but that one
may be the one I didn't think at the time to be important. He
didn't stress it.

My problem has gone away, and my new drives boot every time,
now that I "Restore" to a truly empty hard drive. Not into a
partition that's empty; notwriting over a partition that has
anything in it, but to empty, unallocated space, and I make
sure that that space is at the beginning of the drive. And it
can be a different drive that where the Image is located, and
different fromthe place the Image was made from.

Thank you, Richard!

Bill Lurie
Anonymous
December 19, 2004 8:07:00 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 17:06:59 -0500, William B. Lurie wrote:

> As a sort of 'final' word on the subject, vis-a-vis cloning
> hard drives, which was what got me/us into this question of
> what it takes to boot the cloned drive:
>
> About 4 months ago, Richard Urban wrote here, what steps he
> used, to do it reliably, and I thought I was following in his
> footsteps. Well, I was, in almost all respects, but that one
> may be the one I didn't think at the time to be important. He
> didn't stress it.
>
> My problem has gone away, and my new drives boot every time,
> now that I "Restore" to a truly empty hard drive. Not into a
> partition that's empty; notwriting over a partition that has
> anything in it, but to empty, unallocated space, and I make
> sure that that space is at the beginning of the drive. And it
> can be a different drive that where the Image is located, and
> different fromthe place the Image was made from.
>
> Thank you, Richard!
>
> Bill Lurie

Very cool, Bill! Am glad to hear this and very happy for you. :) 

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 2:31:11 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

I'm trying to get some clarification, from all the posts I have been reading
on this common problem.

I get the missing system file error. I DO NOT have a disc, because it was
bought with it already installed a few years ago. I can't boot into safe mode
nor do last good configuration.

Is my understanding correct that as a worst case scenario I would have to
buy a New CD of XP & do a clean install? If so do I have to format the hard
drive or will the install do that?

Also can I do a repair from a borrowed copy of XP or is that where the
product key get's involved?

Thanks
james

"Ken Blake" wrote:

> In news:o E3Yf0w4EHA.2600@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl,
> ggull <ggullSPAM@NOTrcn.com> typed:
>
> > "Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote ...
> >> ggull <ggullSPAM@NOTrcn.com> typed:
> >>
> >> >I have a stupid question. Is the product key written on the
> >> >CD
> >> > itself, or are all the CDs the same and the key is just a
> >> > unique
> >> > alphanumeric string used for activation/control/etc?
> >>
> >> The product key is not on the CD. If they were, each CD would
> >> have to be made individually, and the cost would be *much*
> >> higher.
> >
> > Thanks for confirming what I suspected, based on that very
> > consideration. (I assume the key is somehow
> > encrypted/hashed/whatever
> > so that just any random string won't work :-)>
>
>
> You're welcome. There's clearly some sort of algorithm applied to
> the string, and only keys that work with that algorithm will be
> accepted.
>
>
> >
> > To get back to the post from Michael Solomon I responded to,
> > where he
> > says "William, you cannot borrow someone else's CD for this
> > purpose
> > as the repair install requires the input of the CD key. Doing
> > so
> > would either result in a rejection or causing problems for the
> > original owner if and when he tries to activate his setup again
> > if
> > necessary."
> >
> > then it seems that perhaps one *could* borrow another CD, but
> > use
> > one's own legitimate product key to activate the install.
>
>
> As long as it's the same type (Retail vs OEM and Full vs
> Upgrade), yes you could. I made this point in an earlier message
> a day or two ago, but I don't recall whether it was in this
> thread or not. The point is that you have to use your own product
> key; the CD itself doesn't matter. To put it another way, it's
> really the Product Key you buy; the CD itself is worth only
> pennies.
>
>
> > Or is the
> > algorithm smart enough to know I have (say) an OEM key that
> > should
> > not work with a Retail Full CD
>
>
> Yes it is. As I said, the type of CD (Retail vs OEM and Full vs
> Upgrade) has to match the key you use.
>
>
> > (the case this thread has been
> > considering)? At least if the key does not reside in the
> > installed
> > software, it seems I wouldn't cause problems for the original
> > owner
> > if I only use my own key.
>
>
> Correct.
>
> --
> Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
> Please reply to the newsgroup
>
>
>
> >> All CDs are not quite the same, but all Retail Full versions
> >> are
> >> the same, all Upgrade versions the same, and all generic OEM
> >> versions the same.
>
>
>
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 3:07:19 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

I see you finally have things worked out, William and that's great. In case
your still interested, here's a site that not only explains RAID but how to
set it up. I've never done it myself though I'm considering it for my next
desktop. In any event, this site may answer any questions that you might
have:
http://members.shaw.ca/xtremecomputing/RAID.htm

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"William B. Lurie" <billurie@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:%232rIach5EHA.4028@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> William B. Lurie wrote:
>> Michael Solomon (MS-MVP) wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, you appear to be the one skating on thin ice. I have my image
>>> files saved in a few places. If my hard drive tanks, restoring the
>>> image to a new drive is no big deal, I've done it several times. It
>>> appears from all the problems you've had trying to use an alternate
>>> drive for this purpose that you are the one skating on thin ice. While
>>> I'm sure it has happened, I can't recall ever seeing such an issue from
>>> someone simply restoring an image.
>>>
>>> That said, instead of the methodology you are using, have you considered
>>> going to some sort of RAID setup? RAID 1 was designed to achieve
>>> precisely what you are trying to do though through much different means.
>>>
>>> Check the link below for an explanation of RAID1 array:
>>> http://www.hardwarecentral.com/hardwarecentral/reviews/...
>>>
>> Say, that's a clever idea, Michael. I just gave it a quick glance,
>> but I have no objection to having two 40 GB drives spinning always,
>> with everything identical on the two drives. Then when one fails,
>> the other is there, up-to-date. I'll assume, until I read further,
>> that there is a way to wipe the failed drive clean and reformat
>> it, and have it put back in service as an operating clone. Or put
>> a new one in and have it automatically start up as a clone. Thank
>> you, I'll look into it.
>>
>> William B. Lurie
> As a sort of 'final' word on the subject, vis-a-vis cloning
> hard drives, which was what got me/us into this question of
> what it takes to boot the cloned drive:
>
> About 4 months ago, Richard Urban wrote here, what steps he
> used, to do it reliably, and I thought I was following in his
> footsteps. Well, I was, in almost all respects, but that one
> may be the one I didn't think at the time to be important. He
> didn't stress it.
>
> My problem has gone away, and my new drives boot every time,
> now that I "Restore" to a truly empty hard drive. Not into a
> partition that's empty; notwriting over a partition that has
> anything in it, but to empty, unallocated space, and I make
> sure that that space is at the beginning of the drive. And it
> can be a different drive that where the Image is located, and
> different fromthe place the Image was made from.
>
> Thank you, Richard!
>
> Bill Lurie
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 6:26:30 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

Michael Solomon (MS-MVP) wrote:
> I see you finally have things worked out, William and that's great. In case
> your still interested, here's a site that not only explains RAID but how to
> set it up. I've never done it myself though I'm considering it for my next
> desktop. In any event, this site may answer any questions that you might
> have:
> http://members.shaw.ca/xtremecomputing/RAID.htm
>
Yes, Michael, thanks largely to you and Sharon. The path
was not without pitfalls, for example in the form of
people whose pleasure comes from being an annoyance just
for the sake of being one, with no contribution to make
other than the smell.

It has been educational for me, and very likely for a
multitude of people who have learned, if they had the
persistence, that what seems straightforward can be
sidetracked by something simple.

I also learned about the multitude of aids which Microsoft
built in, that the casual e-mail-only user of XP would
never suspect existed. That's why it's a pleasure to have
patient MVPs and others to bring them out into the open.
To list a few: Recovery Console. Repair Installation. FIXBOOT.
FIXMBR. And a most valuable tool, CHKDSK.

--
William B. Lurie
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 8:37:44 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics (More info?)

You are welcome, William and thank you for the compliments.

Good luck.

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"William B. Lurie" <billurie@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:%23oel0It5EHA.3336@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> Michael Solomon (MS-MVP) wrote:
>> I see you finally have things worked out, William and that's great. In
>> case your still interested, here's a site that not only explains RAID but
>> how to set it up. I've never done it myself though I'm considering it
>> for my next desktop. In any event, this site may answer any questions
>> that you might have:
>> http://members.shaw.ca/xtremecomputing/RAID.htm
>>
> Yes, Michael, thanks largely to you and Sharon. The path
> was not without pitfalls, for example in the form of
> people whose pleasure comes from being an annoyance just
> for the sake of being one, with no contribution to make
> other than the smell.
>
> It has been educational for me, and very likely for a
> multitude of people who have learned, if they had the
> persistence, that what seems straightforward can be
> sidetracked by something simple.
>
> I also learned about the multitude of aids which Microsoft
> built in, that the casual e-mail-only user of XP would
> never suspect existed. That's why it's a pleasure to have
> patient MVPs and others to bring them out into the open.
> To list a few: Recovery Console. Repair Installation. FIXBOOT.
> FIXMBR. And a most valuable tool, CHKDSK.
>
> --
> William B. Lurie
!