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AM2 35W - myth or legend?

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November 3, 2006 8:09:16 AM

Hi, has anyone found any sites selling the 35W am2 X2 3800 processor? (or the 3500 single core one?) There's a number of sites that show up on froogle.google.com, but none have it in stock. (nor have I found any place that's ever had it in stock, since the so called "launch" in June)

Did AMD only make one of these processors which they have then shipped to review sites?

A few people seem to have heard that one of the large PC manufacturers (HP or Dell usually) are buying them all out, but if that were the case, those manufacturers would have sold some PCs with these processors by now.

Did AMD cancel these or something?

More about : am2 35w myth legend

November 3, 2006 12:38:39 PM

Quote:
Hi, has anyone found any sites selling the 35W am2 X2 3800 processor? (or the 3500 single core one?) There's a number of sites that show up on froogle.google.com, but none have it in stock. (nor have I found any place that's ever had it in stock, since the so called "launch" in June)

Did AMD only make one of these processors which they have then shipped to review sites?

A few people seem to have heard that one of the large PC manufacturers (HP or Dell usually) are buying them all out, but if that were the case, those manufacturers would have sold some PCs with these processors by now.

Did AMD cancel these or something?


AMD is having troubles right now supply everyone else but Dell. I have not read or heard of anything that would give Dell dibs on the energy efficient processors, but I am sure our forum AMD expert, BaronMatrix will be quick to give you information, just ask for links to make sure it is verifiable.

The energy efficient CPUs are special binning CPUs and I have seen them around sparingly at some e-tail sites, from what review sites have published -- the EE CPUs live up to their billing, consuming less energy, but they are in fact rebranding top bin parts based on the clocking/energy data collected so far -- it is not completely conclusive, more data is needed but it certainly points strongly that direction. Xbitlabs and Toms has done a few articles.

You would be better off buying a 4600+ or 5000+ and down-clocking and undervolting 0.1 volts, this will give you a 3800+ or 4400+ type EE CPU. At least then you actually know what you are buying :)  ... joke...

Jack

Well, IMHO - no links necessary for an opinion - I would say that it's for the same reason that AMD SUPPOSEDLY turned down business last year. They knew the price war would happen and needed to keep their war chest slightly full after the acquisition.

By keeping margins high as long as possible they can get into 65nm to make up A LOT of cost difference. Just as the lower priced 5000+ and 5200+ are now in retail fully, I would say that the channel had a lot to do witht he prices staying high as system builders like Monarch and ABS have been selling 5000+ in systems for months.

At any rate I would expect those 35W chips to start popping up in Optiplex and maybe Shuttle type systems first so the average sale for the builders is more.

I mean 3800+ and 3500+ are LOWWWWWW margin chips. The smart business move is to keep your ASP as high as you can for as long as you can in a price war with a larger company.


But then it could all be FUD meant to disillusion prospective buyers causing them to 15fps in Oblivion. It depends on whom you ask.

Baron out.

Make love not price wars.

All hail the duopoly.

And other meaningless statements.
November 3, 2006 1:22:40 PM

Myth or legend? Not leaving much room there for reality are you?
November 3, 2006 5:40:02 PM

Quote:

Make love not price wars.

All hail the duopoly.

And other meaningless statements.


Why would you even say this. Im not even going to exlpain why this is the dumbest thing I have ever heard out of a consumer :p 
November 3, 2006 5:49:32 PM

:)  True, sorry.

I've been planning to build a computer based on one of these since I first heard that AMD was planning on launching them (Back in March or April?), but it's been a really long time. I'm trying to be patient, but not entirely succeeding.
November 3, 2006 6:17:53 PM

Quote:

Make love not price wars.

All hail the duopoly.

And other meaningless statements.


Why would you even say this. Im not even going to exlpain why this is the dumbest thing I have ever heard out of a consumer :p 


My 1st Amendment rights maybe? Even MS and SUSE Linux have begun to collaborate. That should give Intel the impetus to coexist. it is obvious they will hurt themselves as much as AMD as is evidenced by AMDs contiuned growth.


ALL HAIL THE DUOPOLY!!!
November 3, 2006 6:29:20 PM

Quote:

Make love not price wars.

All hail the duopoly.

And other meaningless statements.


Why would you even say this. Im not even going to exlpain why this is the dumbest thing I have ever heard out of a consumer :p 


My 1st Amendment rights maybe? Even MS and SUSE Linux have begun to collaborate. That should give Intel the impetus to coexist. it is obvious they will hurt themselves as much as AMD as is evidenced by AMDs contiuned growth.


ALL HAIL THE DUOPOLY!!!

You are really starting to get on my nerves. I have read alot of post that you have been in and you have caused way more problems then you have helped people. I am officaly ready to call you a TROLL!!!!

And yes by the first Amendment right you can be a TROLL all you like and I have the right to call you a TROLL all I like.

Oh and by the way thanks for all the fires you stared on the boards they have all wasted a ton of my time for the past year that you have been here
November 3, 2006 6:33:43 PM

35W DC for a CPU isn’t that big a deal. I have a system that uses a Core Duo T2600 that consumes a max of 54W AC under full load. That runs at 2.16GHz and uses a 250GB SATA drive and 1GB DDR2-533.
With a typical power supply being only 70% efficient at low power levels, a 35W CPU (DC) equates to ~50W AC, which is close to what my whole system consumes.
You can buy a Core Duo T2600 cheaply on eBay; I paid £120 for mine.
To get even lower power consumption you can use notebook drives and a PicoPSU which will take the power consumption as low as 42.5W AC.
November 3, 2006 6:33:51 PM

Why would Opti's get 35W CPUs? Even the SFFs were shipping with 100W P4's, so a 45W or higher CPU would be fine in them. Also, Opti's aren't currently offered with AMD CPUs. Given the 2 year model offering cycle of Opti's it is unlikely that Dell would come out with an Opti based around the current AMD x2's unless that platform is going to be standard for AMD for a long time.
November 3, 2006 9:36:58 PM

Quote:
AMD is having troubles right now supply everyone else but Dell. I have not read or heard of anything that would give Dell dibs on the energy efficient processors, but I am sure our forum AMD expert, BaronMatrix will be quick to give you information, just ask for links to make sure it is verifiable.


Jack


I'm curious to know the percentage of "Intel experts" relative to the "AMD experts" on this forum. I'd only be guessing, but from the posts i've read in the past, and recently in the last week or so, by my count the vast majority here are "arm chair" "Intel experts". Is it true then, that as the majority of the WWW collabrotively seem to agree that, THG is and Intel slanted website?

Now, if this is the case, I will most likely be called out and ridiculed for this assumption. But as a rebutle to what i fear will be comming, then why haven't i read any or your posts categorizing some very obvious "Intel experts" as such (i sincerley appologize if i am wrong, and i have missed them)?

BaronMatrix, in my opinion, your time is not worth the ridiculing you recieve on this particular forum (by a growing amount of members that seem to be feeding off each other). It seems that some members exist here only for this reason! I guess support forum has taken on an entirely different meaning.

Even if BM isn't correct at every turn (and i'm not saying he isn't), who the hell is? And who are these people that think they are, to jump at any opportunity to ridicule and bash him/her? Sure there may be a few experts in the field, but my guess is that they are far and few between. So, if BM posts in support of AMD and is constantly labeled as an "AMD fanboy", then i'd suggest that this entire website is the equivalent of an "Intel fanboy" (with the exception of a few).

And Jack, is it not fair to say that since you "have not read or heard of anything that would give Dell dibs on the energy efficient processors", and obviously can provide no proof of this (since by your own words, there isn't any), that that in itself is contrary to what you ask BS to provide at almost every opportunity? Exactly how is this different from what you advocate constanly?
November 3, 2006 10:46:33 PM

Quote:
AMD is having troubles right now supply everyone else but Dell. I have not read or heard of anything that would give Dell dibs on the energy efficient processors, but I am sure our forum AMD expert, BaronMatrix will be quick to give you information, just ask for links to make sure it is verifiable.


Jack


I'm curious to know the percentage of "Intel experts" relative to the "AMD experts" on this forum. I'd only be guessing, but from the posts i've read in the past, and recently in the last week or so, by my count the vast majority here are "arm chair" "Intel experts". Is it true then, that as the majority of the WWW collabrotively seem to agree that, THG is and Intel slanted website?

Now, if this is the case, I will most likely be called out and ridiculed for this assumption. But as a rebutle to what i fear will be comming, then why haven't i read any or your posts categorizing some very obvious "Intel experts" as such (i sincerley appologize if i am wrong, and i have missed them)?

BaronMatrix, in my opinion, your time is not worth the ridiculing you recieve on this particular forum (by a growing amount of members that seem to be feeding off each other). It seems that some members exist here only for this reason! I guess support forum has taken on an entirely different meaning.

Even if BM isn't correct at every turn (and i'm not saying he isn't), who the hell is? And who are these people that think they are, to jump at any opportunity to ridicule and bash him/her? Sure there may be a few experts in the field, but my guess is that they are far and few between. So, if BM posts in support of AMD and is constantly labeled as an "AMD fanboy", then i'd suggest that this entire website is the equivalent of an "Intel fanboy" (with the exception of a few).

And Jack, is it not fair to say that since you "have not read or heard of anything that would give Dell dibs on the energy efficient processors", and obviously can provide no proof of this (since by your own words, there isn't any), that that in itself is contrary to what you ask BS to provide at almost every opportunity? Exactly how is this different from what you advocate constanly?

The thing that ticks me off about BM isn't that he is wrong some times or that he turns conversations around or simple stuff like that. What really ticks me off about BM is that he starts allot of Flame wars for no reason and even if he didn't start it he feeds it with a ton of fuel. When I go into almost any Topic I see him and gOJDO flaming each other. Now don't get me wrong I don't like it when gOJDO does it or when anyone else does it!
November 3, 2006 10:55:50 PM

Quote:
The thing that ticks me off about BM isn't that he is wrong some times or that he turns conversations around or simple stuff like that. What really ticks me off about BM is that he starts allot of Flame wars for no reason and even if he didn't start it he feeds it with a ton of fuel. When I go into almost any Topic I see him and gOJDO flaming each other. Now don't get me wrong I don't like it when gOJDO does it or when anyone else does it!


What ticks me off about you is that you take this too seriously. My predictions about AMD have all come true and the only time flame wars start is if I dare say that we should


ALL HAIL THE DUOPOLY!!
November 3, 2006 11:02:31 PM

Quote:
What ticks me off about you is that you take this too seriously.

That's not our problem, that's yours. Don't be PMSing about it in the forums. Hint: pr0n might just do the trick.

Quote:
My predictions about AMD have all come true and the only time flame wars start is if I dare say that we should

O RLY? I see, AMD was hoarding all those rascally X2 5000+'s for back-to school
November 4, 2006 3:19:16 AM

Quote:

My statement above was simply based on information communicated by the rumor mill, I personally do not know and cannot give you data or links, any discussion as to why AMD sucks right now for supply is 1: as good as anyone's, it could be Dell sucking up everything (they are the only ones not complaining), 2: or it could be AMD's yields are not sufficient or it could be that the EE processors which by all intentents and purposes derive from the top bin parts as rebranded parts are so low that they cannot make more than 100 of them. Who knows,3: but I can assure you I am more of an 'expert' than you are.

Jack


1: I agree, hence my post. Are you sure you meant that? How can the rumor mill be used as a source? Heaven forbid anyone else should use it. (especially without links) So would you say that BM's statement that Dell is causing the supply problem, is as valid as your's? Without the infamous link, that statement could be classified as FUD, no?

2: Indeed they are binned parts, but aren't all chips? Or am i to believe that every speed bump has it's own arch....

2: Well that's reassuring..... But all modesty aside, i'm not claiming, nor have i ever, to be an expert. (who knows indeed)

H
November 4, 2006 3:32:09 AM

Quote:
2: Indeed they are binned parts, but aren't all chips? Or am i to believe that every speed bump has it's own arch....

You misinterpret. For all intents and purposes, it looks like the EE and EE SFF series of the AMD Athlon64 X2 series is a higher binned chip set to lower clocks and voltages.
November 4, 2006 3:38:11 AM

# S: (n) forum (a public meeting or assembly for open discussion)
# S: (n) forum, assembly, meeting place (a public facility to meet for open discussion)
ex. An online discussion group, where participants with common interests can exchange open messages.

No other explanation needed.
November 4, 2006 5:12:43 AM

-------------------CHAPTER XI--------------------


Quote:
I'm curious to know the percentage of "Intel experts" relative to the "AMD experts" on this forum. I'd only be guessing, but from the posts i've read in the past, and recently in the last week or so, by my count the vast majority here are "arm chair" "Intel experts". Is it true then, that as the majority of the WWW collabrotively seem to agree that, THG is and Intel slanted website?


This is not an unheard of analysis by a newcomer to these forums.

First, let me say that there are ample AMD experts on this board, as well as simple AMD “fans” such as myself. The simple fact is, there’s not a lot to talk "AMD" about at this time. Except hearsay. Sadly, one of the most pertinent questions in regards to that hearsay, is "is it real, or is it Hord-erex". Even near term releases such as 4x4 are leaving many of us scratching our heads due to lack of "reliable" information. We know its coming and it will be here soon, but we have little to no hard factual data regarding it's cost, how it will perform, what quantities will be available, what hardware will be compatible, etc.

What you are seeing right now is a clear role reversal between AMD and Intel, not only in terms of performance, but also in PR and information dissemination. AMD is latching on to any advantage (perceived or actual) and promoting it while seemingly attempting to ridicule Intel at every opportunity. At the same time, AMD is being abnormally (as predicated on past experience) tight lipped with much of its information, leaving us to wonder if they are hiding something, either positive or adverse.

As for those of us who do admire AMD and its products, many of us (I certainly would not presume to speak for all) are embarrassed by the likes of Baron Matrix, Sharikou, 9 inch and Mad Mod Mike (aka MrsD/MrsBytch) These people do no credits to themselves or the company on whose behalf they strive so fiercely. In fact, one of my fears is that these individuals may be causing guilt/shame/ridicule/etc by simple association.

As to the accusation that THG is an Intel slanted site I offer this rebuttal:

Quite some time back (late 90s) I bought an AMD Tbird 1.4GHz CPU based on THG’s reviews and recommendations. From that time until July of this year, I have not bought or recommended a single Intel CPU based on…........THG recommendations. Only recently did I buy an Intel CPU. I bought it based on………….THG’s reviews and recommendations.

For a site that is supposedly promoting Intel, THG seems to have (in my experience) "lost" Intel a lot of business. IMO (again based on my experience) THG has a very solid history of promoting whichever product performed better, regardless of who manufactured it.

I would not expect you to take my word, so here is a quick smattering of THG articles that are Pro-AMD. I chose a range over a 2 year period to demonstrate that "THG-ProAMD" was not a momentary fad or freak occurrence.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/04/24/dual_core_intel_...
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/02/21/a_look_at_amds_s...
http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/07/25/the_athlon_64_fx...
(This next one is not so much "pro AMD" as "Anti-Intel")
http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/05/25/dothan_over_netb...
http://www.tomshardware.com/2004/10/19/amd/
http://www.tomshardware.com/2004/07/28/duron_successor/
(This one is neutral, stating if you want to do this>Intel, That>AMD)
http://www.tomshardware.com/2004/03/22/welcome_the_late...
http://www.tomshardware.com/2004/03/18/spring_speed_lea...


It’s actually quite funny. During the late 90s/early 2000’s I seem to remember accusations that THG was an Anti Intel - Pro AMD site. After quickly reviewing these old articles, I can’t help but lean more towards this accusation over than the one you referenced

To sum it up, you don’t see us talking a lot about future AMD products as there are not many solid facts to talk about. In reference to previous AMD's, well, the A64s and X2s were and are great CPUs but for the most part discussions of those products have been beaten to death. The "new" news right now is vastly Intel. Sadly, the "horde" is living in denial with regards to that fact. This is why you are not seeing the AMD experts (Again, I am not one of those, merely a fan) talking, but you are seeing the horde running its mouth.

Quote:

Now, if this is the case, I will most likely be called out and ridiculed for this assumption. But as a rebuttal to what I fear will be coming, then why haven't I read any or your posts categorizing some very obvious "Intel experts" as such (I sincerely apologize if I am wrong, and I have missed them)?


No need to call out or ridicule you. Just spend some more time here and watch the discussions. You’ve already noticed one trend. It won’t take you long to notice other trends. Look specifically for trends regarding:
proof,or lack thereof
source reliability
logic—simple, progressive and flawed
partisan posting

If you watch these forums, you will see JJ, Joset, LCDR Data and many others enter polite debate acknowledging the weakness AND strengths of both AMD and Intel, as well as how they relate to each other. Not to mention all manner of …….well, never mind.

All you have to do is keep reading, with an open mind

Quote:

BaronMatrix, in my opinion, your time is not worth the ridiculing you recieve on this particular forum (by a growing amount of members that seem to be feeding off each other). It seems that some members exist here only for this reason! I guess support forum has taken on an entirely different meaning.

Even if BM isn't correct at every turn (and i'm not saying he isn't), who the hell is? And who are these people that think they are, to jump at any opportunity to ridicule and bash him/her? Sure there may be a few experts in the field, but my guess is that they are far and few between. So, if BM posts in support of AMD and is constantly labeled as an "AMD fanboy", then i'd suggest that this entire website is the equivalent of an "Intel fanboy" (with the exception of a few).


No one is right all the time. This is not a problem at all, however, one of the things that sets Baron apart from many others is his inability to recognize when he's wrong, admit when he's wrong, or admit he doesn’t know.
Again, just spend some more time reading.

If you watch long enough, you will be able to recognize several categories of posts, that is, recurring styles which Baron makes. They have recurred frequently enough that I have my own little “pet” names for several of them. A few of these are:
“Tangential segue”
“Redefinably vague”
“Defensively counter accusatory”
For example, a typical Baron tactic, when confronted by irrefutable proof, is to attempt to “segue tangentially” by driving the argument at a different point in order to divert attention from his error. This is one of my favorites and occurs regularly enough. Watch for it.
Another to watch for is the “vague-redefinition”. Baron will make some statement which will lean very clearly in a specific direction, yet remain vague enough as to not constitute what one could call “prosecutable evidence”. He will argue his point until proven indisputably wrong, then he will simply say, “That’s not what I meant”, or “I meant what you said, your just to ingnorant to understand how I was saying it”.
The “defensively counter accusatory” tactic is simple, and recurs frequently. In many instances when proven wrong, he will simply state he is not wrong, and cast aspersions at the counter-data, or an individuals interpretation of the data set, or the individual themself.

Quote:

And Jack, is it not fair to say that since you "have not read or heard of anything that would give Dell dibs on the energy efficient processors", and obviously can provide no proof of this (since by your own words, there isn't any), that that in itself is contrary to what you ask BS to provide at almost every opportunity? Exactly how is this different from what you advocate constanly?


You are quite correct, however, neither has Baron provided proof that Dell has, thus leaving his statement completely unsupported and open to debate. This is trademark Baron: Provide an excuse for an occurance without providing proof.

Someone once suggested the mods create a sticky to warn of Baron. I never really agreed with the thought, as it seemed a bit too personally humiliating. Sadly, I think I now agree. I posted this close to half a dozen times now and I am sure everyone is as sick of reading it as I am writing it: Baron is like the boy who cried wolf. At times he provides valid argument and quality factual information, however, he has cried wolf so many times, that this info often goes overlooked.

IMO Baron is an intelligent individual, intellectually capable of debating in an adult and informative manner. There are those who would argue (intelligently and convincingly) otherwise. While I believe Baron is capable of providing valuable content, I also believe he chooses not to do so, and I suspect this is due to emotional rather than intellectual factors. Instead, he chooses to make definitive statements based on his opinions. I won’t go into why I think this is, as it has been posted before.

Instead, I offer you this advice: When you see a thread progressing peacefully in which BM is posting, watch for the words “I think”, or “IMO” in his posts. Ex, “I think 4x4 will outperform Kentfield”

When you see a deteriorating thread, look for flat statements. Ex “4x4 will out perform Kentfield” Look for the words “they” or “it is said” Also look for the words “link” or “proof” from those engaging Baron

Remember where the internet came from. EDU and GOV. The governments original intent in opening the internet to the public was to allow them access to the informational content held therein. It was not to have the internet become an advertising whore-house, or electronic version of The National Enquirer. That it has become these things is the result of the influence of individuals such as Baron Matrix. I know there are others besides my self who are sick of the BS and want it to stop. I lack the knowledge to debate here usefully, or post informatively, but when I see BS filled posts, you will see my avatar start popping up frequently in response. So yes, there are many of us who will post "flamingly" in response to Baron when he is posting irresponsibly

You are not the first person to defend Baron. You will not be the last. But, I think I can be fairly certain, (by the logic you demonstrated in your post) that as you log more time at THG Forums, you like most others will come to realize that BaronMatrix is full of BS
November 4, 2006 5:38:25 AM

Quote:
For example, a typical Baron tactic, when confronted by irrefutable proof, is to attempt to “segue tangentially” by driving the argument at a different point in order to divert attention from his error. This is one of my favorites and occurs regularly enough. Watch for it.
Another to watch for is the “vague-redefinition”. Baron will make some statement which will lean very clearly in a specific direction, yet remain vague enough as to not constitute what one could call “prosecutable evidence”. He will argue his point until proven indisputably wrong, then he will simply say, “That’s not what I meant”, or “I meant what you said, your just to ingnorant to understand how I was saying it”.
The “defensively counter accusatory” tactic is simple, and recurs frequently. In many instances when proven wrong, he will simply state he is not wrong, and cast aspersions at the counter-data, or an individuals interpretation of the data set, or the individual themself.
Heh heh heh, they're collectibles!



DAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN, that's a nice post.

Should be stickied. :trophy:
November 4, 2006 6:32:01 AM

Terrific post, turpit, and appreciated. You make very valid points, and I would agree and/or stand corrected on all but one, which is the only one i will address, as it could get fairly lengthy otherwise.

In regards to Baron being full of BS, that could very well be, but i would never make an assumption as such about an anonymous person posting in a forum. I would need to know a person quite better, before i could make that judgement. I just can't understand the need to be disrespectful. Certainly disagreement, if in fact an individual does disagree, should be encouraged. But it makes my skin crawl when I see disrespectful behavior. I ask myself: how would I feel.

Wusy: I hope so too. I'm not sure what the answer would be, but perhaps sub forums as to make flaming invitational only, so to speak.
November 4, 2006 10:16:54 AM

Quote:
AM2 35W - myth or legend?

I'd say both of them :D  :D  :D 
November 4, 2006 10:57:38 AM

Quote:
As for those of us who do admire AMD and its products, many of us (I certainly would not presume to speak for all) are embarrassed by the likes of Baron Matrix, Sharikou, 9 inch and Mad Mod Mike (aka MrsD/MrsBytch) These people do no credits to themselves or the company on whose behalf they strive so fiercely. In fact, one of my fears is that these individuals may be causing



There is a forum for sensitive guys like you. I would bet that I have done a lot for AMD.

Here's another coincidence for you.

I went to Digital Life to see 4x4 and said that they should push it mainstream (I spoke to Brent Barry - AMD). Now lo and behold Tom's posts two stories that say they are going for a volume launch. Considering how fast Dell sold those $10,000 EE systems, I think they can drop 100,000 with Dell if they stay under $3000, even more around $2000.

I expect the Alienware models to be above $4000 because of the bells and whistles.


Anyway, the 35W chips will come around before you know it.
November 4, 2006 12:56:34 PM

Quote:
I went to Digital Life to see 4x4 and said that they should push it mainstream (I spoke to Brent Barry - AMD). Now lo and behold Tom's posts two stories that say they are going for a volume launch. Considering how fast Dell sold those $10,000 EE systems, I think they can drop 100,000 with Dell if they stay under $3000, even more around $2000.
I hope not, as it’s a shame to see AMD’s CPUs consuming so much power, especially considering that they had Intel well beaten in this area for ages. I hope their 65nm process makes them competitive again in the power efficiency stakes.
As for the 35W X2 3800, it just seems an irrelevance unless you must have an AMD chip for some perverse reason.
Take a look at this article at SilentPCReview, which shows a T2600 (2.16GHz) consuming 19.5W at load when under-volted. The X2 3800+ EE SFF is heavily factory under-volted, so there isn’t likely to be much room to manually under-volt it further.
A good match for the X2 3800 for performance is a T5600 which runs at 1.83GHz, costs ~$240 and is available. If you want to save a few bucks the T5500 is ~$200.
Both of these CPUs should consume less than 19.5W when undervolted, even taking into account the fact that Merom consumes more power than Yonah.
Hopefully, now that AMD are back in the chipset business we’ll see Turion X2 available for the desktop at some point. They should be more widely available and they are competitively priced also.
November 4, 2006 1:16:13 PM

Quote:
I went to Digital Life to see 4x4 and said that they should push it mainstream (I spoke to Brent Barry - AMD). Now lo and behold Tom's posts two stories that say they are going for a volume launch. Considering how fast Dell sold those $10,000 EE systems, I think they can drop 100,000 with Dell if they stay under $3000, even more around $2000.
I hope not, as it’s a shame to see AMD’s CPUs consuming so much power, especially considering that they had Intel well beaten in this area for ages. I hope their 65nm process makes them competitive again in the power efficiency stakes.
As for the 35W X2 3800, it just seems an irrelevance unless you must have an AMD chip for some perverse reason.
Take a look at this article at SilentPCReview, which shows a T2600 (2.16GHz) consuming 19.5W at load when under-volted. The X2 3800+ EE SFF is heavily factory under-volted, so there isn’t likely to be much room to manually under-volt it further.
A good match for the X2 3800 for performance is a T5600 which runs at 1.83GHz, costs ~$240 and is available. If you want to save a few bucks the T5500 is ~$200.
Both of these CPUs should consume less than 19.5W when undervolted, even taking into account the fact that Merom consumes more power than Yonah.
Hopefully, now that AMD are back in the chipset business we’ll see Turion X2 available for the desktop at some point. They should be more widely available and they are competitively priced also.

If people want AMD for an HTPC, this will be the perfect chip. It is not designed for mobile so Merom is irrelevant. The fact that they can undervolt the chip and keep the same clock speed means that it should OC pretty well.

Anyway, Turion will never reach the desktop but the BullDozer core will be a dual core Barcelona and THAT will be the desktop(Q3). The mobile version is due out first (Q2) and that will definitely have the ATi mobile chipset.

But AMD will be using ATi for Barcelona and Torrenza mainly. The server market has been their bread and butter.
November 4, 2006 2:50:14 PM

Quote:
Terrific post, turpit, and appreciated. You make very valid points, and I would agree and/or stand corrected on all but one, which is the only one i will address, as it could get fairly lengthy otherwise.

In regards to Baron being full of BS, that could very well be, but i would never make an assumption as such about an anonymous person posting in a forum. I would need to know a person quite better, before i could make that judgement. I just can't understand the need to be disrespectful. Certainly disagreement, if in fact an individual does disagree, should be encouraged. But it makes my skin crawl when I see disrespectful behavior. I ask myself: how would I feel.

Wusy: I hope so too. I'm not sure what the answer would be, but perhaps sub forums as to make flaming invitational only, so to speak.


I understand what you are saying to a degree. One thing is though when some one starts enough and feeds enough flame wars you start to see them as full of BS on a forum. Since we can personally meet BM we have to go off of what we have. Most people come here for SERIOUS information and want to learn and grow on the forum. Some people just want to play around and have fun here (BM).

I personally came here for information and constructive conversations. And when I see BM jump in and start flaming or spreading BS that starts up a flame war I get upset as I have to weed though all the posts to find the information I am looking for. This makes it more time consuming and I skip allot of topics because they have been filled with Flames and I don't want to spend the 3+ hours to read them just to get 3 min of information out of it. Now if BM would take this a little more SERIOUSLY then maybe we wouldn't have as much of a problem.

(Even BM admits that he doesn't take this SERIOUSLY)
November 4, 2006 3:30:54 PM

Quote:
If people want AMD for an HTPC, this will be the perfect chip. It is not designed for mobile so Merom is irrelevant.
Merom is officially supported as part of Intel’s Mobile on Desktop platform, which even has its own chipset; 945GT. It is a direct competitor with EE SFF.

Quote:
The fact that they can undervolt the chip and keep the same clock speed means that it should OC pretty well.
It does. I’ve seen people running a Celeron M 420 at 3.2GHz; its stock speed is 1.6GHz and it’s based on Yonah.

Quote:
Anyway, Turion will never reach the desktop but the BullDozer core will be a dual core Barcelona and THAT will be the desktop(Q3). The mobile version is due out first (Q2) and that will definitely have the ATi mobile chipset.
Turion is already supported on the desktop, at least the S754 version is. If you look here you’ll see how it compares against Pentium M & Core Duo.
ATI chipsets have a reputation for low power consumption, so using an under-volted Sempron with a motherboard using an ATI chipset should give fairly good power efficiency. Intel has set the bar pretty low though; I have a desktop system which uses a Core Solo T1400 that consumes 26.5W under load (Prime95) running at 1.83GHz. Part of that is due to using a very efficient power supply and notebook hard drive. But it does indicate how little the motherboard and CPU are consuming.
November 4, 2006 6:14:33 PM

Quote:
If people want AMD for an HTPC, this will be the perfect chip. It is not designed for mobile so Merom is irrelevant.
Merom is officially supported as part of Intel’s Mobile on Desktop platform, which even has its own chipset; 945GT. It is a direct competitor with EE SFF.

Quote:
The fact that they can undervolt the chip and keep the same clock speed means that it should OC pretty well.
It does. I’ve seen people running a Celeron M 420 at 3.2GHz; its stock speed is 1.6GHz and it’s based on Yonah.

Quote:
Anyway, Turion will never reach the desktop but the BullDozer core will be a dual core Barcelona and THAT will be the desktop(Q3). The mobile version is due out first (Q2) and that will definitely have the ATi mobile chipset.
Turion is already supported on the desktop, at least the S754 version is. If you look here you’ll see how it compares against Pentium M & Core Duo.
ATI chipsets have a reputation for low power consumption, so using an under-volted Sempron with a motherboard using an ATI chipset should give fairly good power efficiency. Intel has set the bar pretty low though; I have a desktop system which uses a Core Solo T1400 that consumes 26.5W under load (Prime95) running at 1.83GHz. Part of that is due to using a very efficient power supply and notebook hard drive. But it does indicate how little the motherboard and CPU are consuming.


I should have said Turion X2. Socket S1 is mobile only. 754 was to allow Sempron and Turion to fit in the same socket. Either way a mobile solution should use less power than a desktop one.

The key is that 3800+ won't need a fan. Just a heatsink.
November 5, 2006 12:41:11 AM

Quote:
The key is that 3800+ won't need a fan. Just a heatsink.

WOW! This is the 3026th time you are proving that your really are a moron and when you are going to clock on the "Submit" button it will be the 3027th time.
November 5, 2006 12:46:19 AM

When I turn off the fan on my 26.1W 1GHz Pentium III, it locks up in 60 seconds, looping 3dmark2003. Didn't try that on my Athlon system.

Maximum power, from sandpile.org:
26.1 W (0.18 µm @ 1000EB MHz Pentium III 0686h)

Quote:
The key is that 3800+ won't need a fan. Just a heatsink.

gOJDO, this is actually correct.
If you like Magic Smoke.
November 5, 2006 12:50:05 AM

If I may ask what the hell are you all bitching about now?
November 5, 2006 12:52:21 AM

...we're bitching that 35W is going to need active cooling, when BaronBS says it only needs a heatsink. That's absolutely ludicrous. I just tried what BaronMatrix said on my P3, and I'm glad it has thermal protection.
November 5, 2006 1:24:36 AM

Are... you... serious? You did that?
November 5, 2006 1:25:09 AM

And there are places for you to go where delusional AMD-o-philes can get together and stroke each others wounded misplaced pride. Sahrikou's and MadModMikes Blogs being the two most prominent.

Oh, I agree Baron, you have done much for AMD. However, I would not be proud for tarnishing their reputation. Intel should be paying you a large cash bonus out of their PR funds for all you've done for AMD.
November 5, 2006 1:33:28 AM

It was on... and I wasn't using it :lol: 
And if it burned, it was defective :-P. I'd write BaronMatrix on the chip and send it to him.
Seriously, this ain't anything compared to what THG did to their poor P3, which was LIFT THE HEATSINK off the CPU while running Quake III.
November 5, 2006 1:37:53 AM

I remember that video.... good times. 8)
November 5, 2006 1:42:57 AM

Quote:
I remember that video.... good times. 8)


It's my favorite THG video, it's the only one on something no one wants to do to their own hardware :-D.

Wonder if AMD's processors still burn upon catastrophic thermal solution failure.
November 5, 2006 1:44:42 AM

Re: The SFF 3800+

They are out there.

As for running with just a heat sink, I'm far from an expert, but I believe it'd be possible from what I've read, but it would take a large heatsink (Like a scythe ninja, which I believe is made to be able to run passive) and a case with some good airflow.
November 5, 2006 3:30:26 AM

I was looking for a 3800+SFF 35W myself.
I could NOT find it and bought the 65W instead to built a HTPC.

Later after some research I found out the Sam's Club had a HP slimline
s7627c that has ONE of the 35w processors for $799 with a 19"LCD.
200gB sata Hd and 1 GB of DDR-2 533.

I have built several workstations and PC's and own a laptop but
oh man this is the BEST PC that I have ever own...SILENT,small & fast.

I think that because this PC's HP outsold Dell for the first time in 3 years!
even own Dells XPS 210 are several inches larger.

http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.asp...

Go to your nearest Sam's Club to see if they still have them in stock.
Went I went to buy one it was the last one in Madison Wisconsin....

Or you can buy it directly from HP but it cost $300 more with the same
specs.

HP Pavilion Slimline s7600e series:

http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_ser...;jsessionid=FN0MajZg5deodvRDTOfHC8H74mPNaLgaTt3V1pItkdqG0Lgvnslr!1803616712?category=desktops&series_name=s7600e_series&catLevel=3&storeName=computer_store&jumpid=in_r329_personalization/browse1/home_SDP

I said before that I would never buy a PC built by any one but me.
But when I saw this PC I changed my mind.
Even the processor costing +$400 is worth it.

Good Luck.
Cesar Rubio.
November 5, 2006 5:57:36 AM

Quote:
If I may ask what the hell are you all bitching about now?

If you have any A64 at a hand, reduce(or increase) the freqfency using the multiplier and reduce(or increase) the voltage, enogough to get 35W TDP of your CPU:
P1 = C*V1*V1*F1 = ? W
P2 = C*V2*V2*F2 = 35W
C is constant capacitance, V1 is normal voltage, V2 is reduced(or increased) voltage F1 is normal freqfency and V2 is reduced(or increased) freqfency.
Take off the fan from the heatsink of the CPU and than run SuperPi 32M or Prime95 for a several minutes. Than tell us what happens.
November 5, 2006 6:26:29 AM

Quote:
The key is that 3800+ won't need a fan. Just a heatsink.
If you use a Ninja or similar, 35W is easy to cool passively. I cooled an E6400 passively using a Ninja with only a single case fan; Nexus 120mm at ~600 RPM.
The advantage of getting the wattage lower than 20W (Yonah/Merom) is that you can cool the CPU passively using a smaller heastsink, which is important if you are building a HTPC or a SFF case. Ninjas and HTPCs don’t mix so well together.
Another trick with an SFF case is to use an external power brick, as that reduces the amount of heat dissipated in the case which also helps when trying to cool the PC quietly. There’s isn’t enough space in a typical SFF case to run a quiet 120mm fan, so the least amount of heat you have to evacuate the better.
November 5, 2006 1:08:13 PM

Quote:
Oh, I agree Baron, you have done much for AMD. However, I would not be proud for tarnishing their reputation. Intel should be paying you a large cash bonus out of their PR funds for all you've done for AMD.


That's the beauty of ignorance, eh?
November 5, 2006 1:35:03 PM

Quote:
...we're bitching that 35W is going to need active cooling, when BaronBS says it only needs a heatsink. That's absolutely ludicrous. I just tried what BaronMatrix said on my P3, and I'm glad it has thermal protection.



HTPCs are not usually gaming machines. Many sites have reported that it will be possible to use 3800+ in an HTPC wthout a fan.

Even chipsets now have heatpipes which which work fine passively. The whole idea of the SFF moniker is to state that it will run in an HTPC passively. You would of course need some type of fan in the case, but the idea is to lower the need for noisy fans while you're watching DVDs with Media Center (which BTW is more a GPU function).


Also thermal throttling has been much improved sine the P3 and its mobos.


From Tom's own green machine article:


Quote:
With its total system power consumption of 54 W idle and 79 W at maximum load, the Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Energy Efficient Small Form Factor CPU lives up to its efficiency claims. The same platform, however, also drew less than 100 W at maximum load using the standard Athlon 64 X2 3800+. When discussing total system power consumption, it's important to remember that it includes chipset, graphics, RAM and hard drive power, and even the 15-25% power typically wasted by the power supply during conversion.

Two things became overwhelmingly obvious during this test: AMD's power savings extend from enhanced versions to standard Athlon 64 X2 cores, and that platform efficiency (mostly chipset and graphics) is the key to keeping overall power consumption at manageable levels. High efficiency will allow smaller enclosures for portable PCs and low noise cooling in home theaters, without resorting to typically high-priced mobile components or low-performance down market processors.

Intel's release of Core 2 may have stolen AMD's performance-per-clock thunder, but AMD retains its advantage in performance-per-watt when including the platform.

Author's Opinion
Were Athlon 64 X2 Energy Efficient processors to reduce average power use by 10 W, the average 10 hour per day office system would cost only few dollars less per year to operate. Multiplying that cost savings over 100 systems, an office manager might save enough to pay for the beverages at the annual Christmas party. If the system could last 10 years, the savings might pay for the cost difference between the standard and enhanced version.

The best reason this author can find to justify the added expense of low-wattage Athlon 64 versions is for silent cooling in HTPC enclosures, which often reach their peak heat output during movie viewing. After all, the last thing you'd want in a home theater is a noisy fan kicking in during a quiet movie scene. Peak output being more important than averages when it comes to cooling, the "Energy Efficient Small Form Factor" name seems appropriate - if a bit long.



Linkage for the impaired!
November 5, 2006 1:45:14 PM

Quote:
dont know if anyone has actually given an address where u can buy one so ive got you one. its got stock.
4200+ SFF EE AMD AM2 2.2GHZ 1MB CACHE - £129.12
the downside. UK.
still. it is there.
That's a 65W EE chip, not the 35W EE SFF chip. The EE SFF is currently only (un)available as a 2GHz part.
November 5, 2006 2:17:55 PM

Quote:
What ticks me off about you is that you take this too seriously.

That's not our problem, that's yours. Don't be PMSing about it in the forums. Hint: pr0n might just do the trick.

Quote:
My predictions about AMD have all come true and the only time flame wars start is if I dare say that we should

O RLY? I see, AMD was hoarding all those rascally X2 5000+'s for back-to school
We get it, Baron is a troll. Everyone and their mother knows this and there's no reason to keep talking about, or getting angry, because you know it's true!
November 5, 2006 2:27:31 PM

Quote:
Are... you... serious? You did that?



Maybe you should pick your friends better.

ROTFLMFAO
November 5, 2006 4:55:43 PM

Quote:
“Defensively counter accusatory”

The “defensively counter accusatory” tactic is simple, and recurs frequently. In many instances when proven wrong, he will simply state he is not wrong, and cast aspersions at the counter-data, or an individuals interpretation of the data set, or the individual themself.
November 5, 2006 8:44:33 PM

Quote:
“Defensively counter accusatory”

The “defensively counter accusatory” tactic is simple, and recurs frequently. In many instances when proven wrong, he will simply state he is not wrong, and cast aspersions at the counter-data, or an individuals interpretation of the data set, or the individual themself.



So you have no comment about Tom's own article?


Quote:
With its total system power consumption of 54 W idle and 79 W at maximum load, the Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Energy Efficient Small Form Factor CPU lives up to its efficiency claims. The same platform, however, also drew less than 100 W at maximum load using the standard Athlon 64 X2 3800+. When discussing total system power consumption, it's important to remember that it includes chipset, graphics, RAM and hard drive power, and even the 15-25% power typically wasted by the power supply during conversion.

Two things became overwhelmingly obvious during this test: AMD's power savings extend from enhanced versions to standard Athlon 64 X2 cores, and that platform efficiency (mostly chipset and graphics) is the key to keeping overall power consumption at manageable levels. High efficiency will allow smaller enclosures for portable PCs and low noise cooling in home theaters, without resorting to typically high-priced mobile components or low-performance down market processors.

Intel's release of Core 2 may have stolen AMD's performance-per-clock thunder, but AMD retains its advantage in performance-per-watt when including the platform.

Author's Opinion
Were Athlon 64 X2 Energy Efficient processors to reduce average power use by 10 W, the average 10 hour per day office system would cost only few dollars less per year to operate. Multiplying that cost savings over 100 systems, an office manager might save enough to pay for the beverages at the annual Christmas party. If the system could last 10 years, the savings might pay for the cost difference between the standard and enhanced version.

The best reason this author can find to justify the added expense of low-wattage Athlon 64 versions is for silent cooling in HTPC enclosures, which often reach their peak heat output during movie viewing. After all, the last thing you'd want in a home theater is a noisy fan kicking in during a quiet movie scene. Peak output being more important than averages when it comes to cooling, the "Energy Efficient Small Form Factor" name seems appropriate - if a bit long.
November 5, 2006 9:03:20 PM

Quote:
This is worth emphasizing too.


Yet it has nothing to do with the topic so why bother. I posted links and we still find something negative.

Can you say biased pri c k with an inferiority complex.
November 5, 2006 9:05:06 PM

No. I can't. End this foolishness. Discuss the topic, not your issues.
November 5, 2006 9:09:13 PM

Quote:

"Redefinably vague”

Another to watch for is the “vague-redefinition”. Baron will make some statement which will lean very clearly in a specific direction, yet remain vague enough as to not constitute what one could call “prosecutable evidence”. He will argue his point until proven indisputably wrong, then he will simply say, “That’s not what I meant”, or “I meant what you said, your just to ingnorant to understand how I was saying it”.

“Defensively counter accusatory”

The “defensively counter accusatory” tactic is simple, and recurs frequently. In many instances when proven wrong, he will simply state he is not wrong, and cast aspersions at the counter-data, or an individuals interpretation of the data set, or the individual themself.
!