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It's down to this - Noisetaker II 485W or Liberty 400W?

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November 3, 2006 12:04:51 PM

Hi guys.
I have the following machine:
Pentium D 805, Freezer 7 pro cooling
2x512mb ram DDR II 667 - Kingston Value.
Gigabyte 8I945P-G-RH motherboard
Leadtek winfast 7600gs
1 Hitachi harddrive - 160gb SATA II
1 Nec DVD burner
2 more case fans + leds.

I had this machine overclocked and running fine until yesterday at 3.5GHz(175FSB). Yesterday I tried overclocking it to 3.8GHz(190FSB).
After 30 mins in prime95, my PSU just blew up, literally.
I had ColorsIT 480W Powersupply.

I want to buy a new PSU, but I'm little tight in budget, so I'm looking into the cheaper stuff like HEC/FSP/Topower.

I want to buy a PSU that will hold this machine with a 4ghz overclock which is even a bit higher. What I really don't get is how exactly THG people were able to run an even more power consuming machine than mine, which was also overclocked to 4.1GHz! They did it with a GENERIC 480W PSU.

If my PSU died at 3.8ghz, how were they able to run 4.1ghz with a generic PSU which has the same Wattage as mine did? I doubt their PSU was able to supply true 480w, since even the most quality PSUs tend to only supply 70-75% at peak.

This information was taken from this link:
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/05/10/dual_41_ghz_core...

I'm a bit confused. This really doesn't makes sense to me at all. I'd appreciate it if you could help.

With Regards,
Guy
November 3, 2006 12:15:56 PM

http://www.pcreview.co.uk/reviews/Miscellaneous/Tagan_T...

Tagan is not a generic no-name PSU, I would say its a 1st Tier manufacturer, much much better than the PSU you have, which is a true generic PSU (never heard of ColorsIT, but Tagan instantly sent a spark through my mind...) but Tagan is based in Germany thus not very known here, but they provide some of the best PSU's in the buisness (and we all know Tom's has a lab in Germany...)

If you want to buy a PSU that can hold that much of an OC, get a PSU from a top tier manufacturer of at least 450W (Antec, Silverstone, Seasonic, Enermax, OCZ, Corsair, TT, Fortran, PC P&C, all major ones in the U.S. There are a few specialty companies like Zippy that are nice, and Tagan, which you'd be hard pressed to find) but I would suggest at least 500W if your planning on using the PSU in a future computer, maybe even 600W/700W if you want to go DX10.
November 3, 2006 12:24:51 PM

Thank you for the information. Didn't know that about Tagan.

Anyway, I still don't see how a 480W PSU can supply 475W. We all know that in full load, most PSUs supply 70-75% at best.
So I still don't see how their 480W PSU was able to hold that.

I'm trying to find the most affordable PSU I can be. I'm not thinking about upgrading to a DX10 card/new computer any time soon, so this PSU should simply safely hold a 4ghz overclock.

What's wrong with the more budget(yet still quality brands) PSUs made by HEC, FSP, Topower? I can get a 500-550W PSU fo much cheaper than Antec/Enermax and such.
Yet, I still don't see how in the world they'd supply 475W. 70% out of 500W is still only 350W.
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a b ) Power supply
November 3, 2006 12:28:30 PM

Regardless of brand, research it and make sure your PSU of choice has a good efficiency rating. Also, check the spex for output at a given temperature. The lower the temp rating for the spec, the lower the quality and your output will get "dirty" as the heat goes up. If you look at reviews, try to find a reviewer that looks at ripple or "noise".

If you are OCing, your PSU is critical. You can see the stress it takes thru the smoke of the last one. Definitely get a good quality PSU, as much as your budget will allow. Our HX520 is a great buy and the HX620 is not much more.
November 3, 2006 12:51:09 PM

There are some PSU's that can actually deliver past their rated wattage, which is what seperates the good ones from the best ones.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/M12-700/index2.html

That shows a Seasonic actually delivering past its 700W rated load without much of a deviation. The no name brands probably only deliver 70-75% of what they rate, but the top names should have no problem.

Not to mention top names also have better stability, reliability, and warranty, which are very important factors to consider also.
a b ) Power supply
November 3, 2006 1:11:20 PM

Quote:
With the two power supply efforts we've seen put forth by Corsair, it certainly seems as if they're a company that plans on sticking around in the power supply segment of the market. This one wasn't as powerful as the last, and was a little noisier and short on a couple cables... but it only costs $119 and that's a heck of a value for the features this power supply has. Typical 80% efficiency, active power factor correction and modular cables!


http://www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/HX520W/

I really like the way this guy tests PSUs. He leaves nothing out and includes the heat and ripple info that many reviewers leave out.
November 3, 2006 3:14:46 PM

First of all let me say that the HX520W is way over my budget. Where I live, these are hard to find, and highly overpriced(No chance to find this one for anything near 120$).

You guys say that good PSUs can supply the exact number of watts as specificed at full load as well. From what I've been reading, each PSU has an effeciency level. The best I've seen is 80%. Doesn't the efficiency mean that the PSU can at BEST supply 80% of the specified wattage? E.G: a 480w can deliver at best 400w.

If that's the case, then where do you guys find PSUs that deliver what they are supposed to? I can't seem to find any of those.

My second question is - Could it be that my machine overclocked to 4.1GHz will consume 475Watts at load? According to what I mentioned above that would require a 600W+ PSU. And in any case it sounds like a crazy power consumption to me, don't you agree?

Thank you for all your replies!
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
November 3, 2006 3:43:06 PM

Efficiency is the amount of electricity at the plug that is converted into electricity in you PC. (AC-DC conversion), the rest is released as heat. Higher efficiency: less$ on your electricity bill and cooler PSU.

Antec Neo HE are good and the TRIO also...

Use the Wattage calculator in the sticky up there to know what you really need.

The NeoHe 380 MIGHT just do the job since it's probably much mor ehgiher quality then what you had.

Just stick with well known brand
Heard great thing abotu Fortron Source, Really cheap too
a b ) Power supply
November 3, 2006 3:56:20 PM

Quote:
You guys say that good PSUs can supply the exact number of watts as specificed at full load as well. From what I've been reading, each PSU has an effeciency level. The best I've seen is 80%. Doesn't the efficiency mean that the PSU can at BEST supply 80% of the specified wattage? E.G: a 480w can deliver at best 400w.
One thing that quality PSU manufacturers do is to more conservatively rate their PSUs. For example, I know for a fact that the mazimum output of the HX620 is more than 620w. However, Corsair rates it at a conservative 620w. When you put it on a bench and test it, it will do more than 620w. When you get it hot and the ambient temps are up inside a case, full load, etc, you WILL get a clean 620w. Cheap PSUs skew their ratings and they MIGHT put out their rated power at a dead short in a freezer, and only then for a brief second.

Regardless of brand or where you buy shop carefully.

EDIT: Is this a good price in CAN $$$ ?

http://search.ncix.com/displayproductdetail.php?sku=198...
November 3, 2006 4:06:33 PM

When they say that a PSU has an 80% efficiency rating, what they actually mean is how much power it pulls out of the wall compared to how much it actually supplies to the computer. So a computer is pulling 400 watts off of a PSU, with an 80% efficiency rate, that means 480 watts are being taken from the socket. The higher efficiency the power supply, the cooler it runs because the ecess heat it puts off.

Hope that clears things up a little.
November 3, 2006 4:18:58 PM

According to this: http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/05/10/dual_41_ghz_core...

Was the power consumption tested here, the one originating from the wall, or the actual wattage the PSU provides?

If this is only the consumption from the wall, then even a HEC 450-500W with enough Ampers on the 12v rail should do the trick right?

About effiency - as far as I've seen all PSUs has efficiency ratings. So in that case none of them can really output 100% of what they state. If anyone can show me otherwise, please do.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
November 3, 2006 4:20:01 PM

Seems like a very ood price to me, 5$ cheaper then newegg and in canadian!
November 3, 2006 4:49:50 PM

Quote:
When they say that a PSU has an 80% efficiency rating, what they actually mean is how much power it pulls out of the wall compared to how much it actually supplies to the computer. So a computer is pulling 400 watts off of a PSU, with an 80% efficiency rate, that means 480 watts are being taken from the socket. The higher efficiency the power supply, the cooler it runs because the ecess heat it puts off.

Hope that clears things up a little.


480W at 80% efficeny is only 384W...

400W/.8 = 500W....
a b ) Power supply
November 3, 2006 4:58:21 PM

Quote:
About effiency - as far as I've seen all PSUs has efficiency ratings. So in that case none of them can really output 100% of what they state. If anyone can show me otherwise, please do.


http://www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/HX620W/index2.htm

http://www.corsairmemory.com/corsair/HX_power_supply.ht...

Read the reviews. The rating Corsair has assigned to their PSUs is a continuous power rating, not a maximum or theoretical maximum. It can and does put out its full power rating continuously when under load and can do so at extreme temps.

The efficiency, as explained in this thread, is how efficiently the AC current is converted. It is not meant to say that you get 80% of 620w. With these, you get 100% of 620w or 520w respectively.
November 3, 2006 5:32:56 PM

Quote:
When they say that a PSU has an 80% efficiency rating, what they actually mean is how much power it pulls out of the wall compared to how much it actually supplies to the computer. So a computer is pulling 400 watts off of a PSU, with an 80% efficiency rate, that means 480 watts are being taken from the socket. The higher efficiency the power supply, the cooler it runs because the ecess heat it puts off.

Hope that clears things up a little.


480W at 80% efficeny is only 384W...

400W/.8 = 500W....

OK, here's the scoop

The efficiency is, as stated before in this thread, how well the PSU converts the AC power to DC power. ALL power supplies should supply the power that they are rated for, some of the obviously cheaper ones can't but that is beside the point, they are SUPPOSED to. The efficiency IS NOT your PSU rating * the efficiency, like the above shows.

480w x 0.80 = 384w THIS IS WRONG, if your psu is rated at 480w and 80% efficiency then you look at the following calculation.

480w / 0.80 = 600w <= this is the amount of AC power the PSU NEEDS in order to output 480w of DC.

Therefore a 480w with good efficiency of 85% requires 564w of AC power, a 400w with poor efficiency of 70% requires 571w of AC power. Therefore, even though the 480w psu puts out more DC power than the 400w, it uses less AC power to do it. THAT is what you are paying for when you get a high quality psu; good, stable, high DC power output while using less AC power to produce it.

* I am not attacking you doughboy, just using those calculations as an example.

Beyond the issue of efficiency, you must also look at when and how the PSU's are tested. Most of the better PSU makers test for continuous power output at 50C, most generic PSU makers test for highest output at 25C (how many PSU's actually work in a 25C atmosphere?). Look at the data supplied by the manufacturer, check for how they test their PSU's.
HINT: if they don't supply the data, there is probably a reason.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
November 3, 2006 8:39:43 PM

Im pretty sure he was just correcting the math....
8)
November 4, 2006 8:16:28 PM

Thanks for clearning things out.

Before deciding which PSU to buy, I need to determine how much Wattage + 12v Ampers I need.

According to the calculator(http://www.extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine), I need atleast 670W and 32A on the 12v rail for my machine.

This sounds outrageous! don't you agree? It also doesn't make much sense, since according to tomshardware article, this PC(actually what they tested was more power consuming than mine) should take 400W out of the wall at full load, and overclocked to 4GHz!

I didn't even add the 30% to the test like the PSU101 sticky here suggested.

What do you guys think?
a b ) Power supply
November 4, 2006 8:19:23 PM

There's no way that power calculation is accurate. You may want to retry or find another calculator.
November 4, 2006 9:01:18 PM

this calculator is quite known, and advised to use in many places, not only here.

So I guess this calculator is supposed to be a decent one, isn't it?

If anyone has an idea why the calculating indicates the need of a 700W PSU, while toms article speaks of a PSU half that size, please explain to me.

I do not wish to have another dead PSU/computer.
a b ) Power supply
November 4, 2006 9:10:55 PM

I"m not saying the calculaTOR is right or wrong, but there has to be some sort of error. The calculaTIONis definitely wrong. If you'll look at your system spex and do a bit of Googling, you'll see that.

For example, your CPU and your video card are the 2 most power hungry components on the system. Your video card should pull less than a 7900GTX which pulls about 80w +-. Even if your CPU pulls 120w, that's only 200w at MAX load. So, how much power can the rest of your system possibly be pulling?
November 4, 2006 10:37:16 PM

I ran the system listed by the op and at a 4ghz OC I only get a psu requirement of 425w... I don't know where you got that 700w from. Please run your system through it again.
November 5, 2006 12:56:04 AM

20A on my 12v rail won't be enough. I had a 480W PSU with 19A on the 12V rail. It exploded on 3.8GHz, because it didn't supply enough power.

I ran the test again and I'm still getting the same numbers. According to the test, only my CPU will require 320W when overclocked to 4ghz. That sounds very odd.

You also need to take into account the aging of the PSU. I want this one to last atleast 3 years on this machine.
November 5, 2006 1:12:43 PM

Thanks guys.

I'm down to two models, not sure which I should get, but both cost EXACTLY the same.

Enermax Liberty 400w
Enermax NoiseTaker II 485W EG495P-VE

Obviously the noisetaker gives me the extra 85W and 2A extra on the combined 12v Rails.
The liberty 400w should hold my machine for now. But I'm sceptic of how it will perform in 2-3 years. Will it still be able to supply almost the same Wattage effectively? or will the capacitator aging reduce performence significally?

On the other hand, the liberty is a higher end product.

For my rig which needs quite some power, which one of those two should I get?
!