Win2k + detonators pissing me off.

[lhgpoobaa]

Why are detonators cauzing so many issues on my win2k system???
its beginning to jack me off big time!

win2k
sp2
via 4in1's 4.32
agp patch & port driver
directx 8.1
tried various settings: athlon 1200C @ 1200&133, 1333&133, 1350&150.
asus a7v133
leadtek winfast geforce2pro 32mb
sb live
512mb pc150 sdram

DRIVERS TRIED AND ISSUES WITH EACH
1. 6.6.6 - (offical from leadtek webby) - mega slow d3d, sluggish mouse control, framerates that seem to max out at ~20fps for games, but unaffected open gl. gives me 1100 3dmarks (usually i get 4300)
2. 6.6.7 - same issues as above
3. 7.76 & 7.97's - good d3d performance (3900 3dmarks), but opengl in quake2 is very corrupted and unfixable. monitor refresh rates seem to be mysteriously limited to my monitor defaults 60, 70 & 72 (usually i also have the options 75,85,95 & 100).
4. 12.40's - memory leaks in UT.
5. 12.41's - (official) best result so far (4300 3dmarks), most stable in all the games ive tired, BUT i CANNOT GET THE OVERCLOCKING TAB TO APPEAR! (no coolbits for me)
also, monitor refresh rates limited to 60,70, & 72.
5. 12.60's, 12.90's 14.10's, 14.20's just shite. absolute crap. most common issue seems to be "laggy mouse" where the frame rate drops (may or may not be connected) and my mouse movement lags by about half a second in d3d games.

HELP!
why are there soooo many issues here?
and how can i get the overclocking toolbar to appear using the 12.41's?
p.s. the rivatuner program is useful, but its overclocking settings never "stick" and always go back to default whenever i close the window. powerstip is a little more effective but it doesnt allow small mhz changes. seems to change in 7-8mhz increments.

can someone reccomend anything else i can do? ditch the via drivers perhaps? reinstall windows as 'standard computer' and not ACPI?

please help. if u need more info just ask.

regards, master Poo + Hamster

"i love the smell of Overclocking in the morning!" Says my Hamster.

 

[Toejam31]

To enable Coolbits in the 12.41's:

<A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=634813#634813" target="_new">http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=634813#634813</A>

(Sorry ... I just didn't feel like typing it again!) ;-)

The monitor refresh rate issue is common with nVidia drivers, Win2k and certain brands of monitors. I'd have to search around to find you a detailed explanation, (and I will do that, and repost) but I know that the two probable "fixes" involve either breaking off some pins on the monitor connector (which I didn't care for) or using a BNC connector to bypass Plug N Play, (assuming that your monitor has these connectors available for use.) More on this later.

Due to the various problems you are experiencing, I'd drop the beta of DirectX, and go back to 8.0a. You are using a card that was optimized for DirectX 7, so that's something to keep in mind.

You know the "drill". Be sure that all traces of the old drivers are removed before installing new ones. And it's best, for stability, to start from scratch when installing the nVidia drivers ... complete removal of the old drivers, reloading the standard VGA driver, etc. Overwriting the older driver is easier, but if you've got problems ... do it the hard way.

I haven't found any drivers that were faster than the 12.40's, but as you noticed, there were some memory leaks. I didn't see any advantage to the newer, leaked drivers, and I saw some display corruption with the 12.90's. I'm currently running the 12.41's, and sticking to them until something better comes along.

I've seen several people talk about problems with the 3D Mark2001 benchmarking program when the computer was overclocked, including lockups.

For tweaking, I prefer NVMax. It's small, and doesn't need to run all the time (it just makes Registry changes ... with an option for backing up the old settings.) It's really all you need for altering the Open GL and Direct D3D drivers.

I really doubt that your problems are because of ACPI.

More in a bit ... need to get some links for you.

Toejam31

<font color=purple>My Rig:</font color=purple> <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847</A>

 

[Toejam31]

Okay ... I'm back.

The explanation: When using any of the Detonator drivers above 6.50, the DDC information about the monitor is detected incorrectly by Plug N Play. Some people blame the monitor ... I blame nVidia.

The problem is discussed here:

<A HREF="http://www.geforcefaq.com/faq.html#sw:drv:troub:75hzw2k" target="_new">http://www.geforcefaq.com/faq.html#sw:drv:troub:75hzw2k</A>

This also has the directions for altering the monitor cable.

There are a couple of possible fixes. One involves setting up your monitor as a standard monitor type. Another possibility is altering the nVidia .inf file and manually adjusting the refresh rates for the different resolutions. Still another is using the the Windows 2000 nVidia Refresh Rate Fix.

I tried all three ... and it didn't do any good. For instance, the Refresh Rate Fix just <i>removed</i> the specific resolution I wanted to alter, and locked the display at 16 million colors ... which required a reinstallation of the driver. And I did my best to carefully alter the driver file, but all it did was cause driver corruption. I also didn't much care for screwing around with PowerStrip; creating a custom resolution and refresh rate. A real pain in the you-know-what. But ... here are a couple of pages with just about any kind of tweaking utility that you can name, and maybe you'll have better luck:

<A HREF="http://www.the-ctrl-alt-del.com/utilities.htm" target="_new">http://www.the-ctrl-alt-del.com/utilities.htm</A>

<A HREF="http://www.tweakfiles.com/video/" target="_new">http://www.tweakfiles.com/video/</A>

The ones at the first link appear to be newer versions. The guys at this place tend to be pretty good about updating.

You'll also see a DirectX Uninstaller, a DirectX Control Panel Option (which will allow you to change the debugging options) and the latest, retail version of DirectX 8.

Finally, I suggest that you run DXDIAG, and under the MoreHelp/Override Tab, set the DirectDraw rate to whatever you prefer (I like 85Hz.) That might help with the games.

The only real fix for me was using the BNC connectors ... but that might not be the solution in your case, depending on your monitor.

Post back, and let us know how it goes.

Toejam31

<font color=purple>My Rig:</font color=purple> <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847</A>

 

[lhgpoobaa]

yaaa... i did a bit more checking last nite.
using the 6.xx detonators i could choose from the following resolutions
6.xx = 60,70,72,75,85,95,100
7.xx = 60,70,72,75,85
10's,12's&14's = 60,70,72 (monitor defaults

it seems as i go up in detonators i loose refresh rates.
60,70&72 are the monitor defaults. very sucky cauz i KNOW i can get 1024x768x95.

at the moment im using powerstrip. a bit cumbersome, but least it sets the resolutions correctly. i.e. 800x600x100 and 1024x768x87.5 (my faves)
and i dont have to worry about the shareware splash screen too much as i dont actually close down often. just hibernate. (18 hours running time so far of about 4 hibernates lol)

ive also been through nvidia refresh rate fix...
that was NOT a sucess.
installed ok. chose my resolutions ok...but when i booted up i had my choice restricted to 3 resolutions total. one 800x600x256x85, 1024x768x16x75 & 1152x864x32x60.
not exactly what i wanted. dumbass thing.

i imagine if i went out and purchaced a shiney new 17" monitor it would be ok. but i dont have that kinda cash available.

that would fix one problem... i still want to know why some detonators run so mega slow. it seems beyond reason as in one case detonators from the same series 6.xx one set works and the other doesnt.

least im getting reporducable results.

directx. using the unofficial 8.1's as the 8.0's caused a number of serious memory leaks in games.
besides being unofficial they check out allright using Dxdiag.

what im doing now is downloading all the major detonator revisions. then im going to catalogue all the issues i have with each in detail. make a nice spreadsheet lol

oh yeah... btw.
does coolbits work with the latter detonator revisions or not? (doesnt seem the case with me)

thanx



Quote from the Hamster: "Why is it that Morons are just smart enough to understand how to breed?"

 

[Eriond]

Hmm I have the 1080 drivers and Nvidia refresh fix. Works perfectly for me. Might wanna try uninstalling everything you have, mon, vid all that crap and try those :-/

 

[Toejam31]

"what im doing now is downloading all the major detonator revisions. then im going to catalogue all the issues i have with each in detail. make a nice spreadsheet lol"

I'd like to see a copy of that when you are finished, if you don't mind, please. Could be interesting reading, as well as informative. As for those memory leaks in different games with DirectX 8.0 ... would you mind adding them to the list? You and I probably have at least one or two games in common if you buy retail, and I'd like to compare your results with mine. Just in the name of science (or being nosy.) <GRIN> Lots of people holler about problems, but very few of them methodically take notes for later review. That kind of thing could prove to be invaluable for multimedia troubleshooting. Some of us freaky die-hards still prefer the PC over a console, and lots of my friends and customers are gaming enthusiasts. God help us all! LOL!

Here's a funny thing. (Funny ... odd; no comic relief.) What I found unusual about your situation is that this particular refresh rate problem doesn't seem to occur nearly as often with GeForce2 cards as it does with the newer GeForce3's. I may start making a list myself of people I've seen with the problem, the card are they are using, the OS, and the driver revision.

For example, I've had a couple of GeForce2 cards in my main machines this year, and in both Win98 and Win2k ... no problems, regardless of the driver. Same monitor(s). One card was a Creative Labs, and the other was a reference card. The earlier drivers may have sucked, but I could set any refresh rate the monitor supported.

The GeForce3 I'm using now also had no problems in Win98 and/or the original version of Win2k. I didn't run into a limitation with the refresh rate until I installed SP1. And, of course, SP2 didn't change anything.

Because the results are so inconsistent, I'm beginning to lean towards the OS being the "real" problem. So much for WHQL, huh? I don't know who to be more pissed at, M$, or nVidia. I guess I could just detest them both equally, to be fair about it!

Glad that you got the Coolbits tweak working.

Toejam31


<font color=purple>My Rig:</font color=purple> <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847</A>

 

[Toejam31]

Might as well get started on that list, even if it's with a success story!

What's your video card and OS version, dude? How about your monitor? I've heard of <i>some</i> (i.e. very few) people having good results with the Refresh Rate Fix, but so far, none of them have been with GeForce3 cards and Win2k. The only GeForce card I've seen that doesn't appear to have a problem, regardless of the OS or driver is the older GeForce256. It has it's own set of problems, (memory bandwidth and voltage issues) but that has nothing to do with this. That's just me, rambling on.

Note: I've seen tons of posts about the 10.80's over the past few months. They were supposed to be really fast, almost as fast as the 12.40's ... but most people also found them to be unstable as hell. I thought the 12.40's were better ... higher benchmarking scores and less crashes during games. They also caused problems with DVD playback.

Comments?

Toejam31

<font color=purple>My Rig:</font color=purple> <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847</A>

 

[lhgpoobaa]

i thought the refresh rate issue with win2k was more related to your monitor type than ones graphics card...
as i had the same issue earlier with my
gigabyte tnt2 crappy pro.
and i DO have an ageing 17" monitor (over 2.5 years)

i tend to only play a limited number of games excessively.
they are (and problems associated that ive seen)

UNREAL TOURNAMENT:
1. laggy mouse while ingame + frame rate drop (only minor fps drop) - only seen in drivers above 12.41. also tends to be seasonal. often a new map load can temporarily fix it.
2. 4x frame rate drop. also slow mouse in menu and slow menu toolbars (direct3d only - software & opengl unaffected) seen in the 6.xx series, some of the 7.xx's, and 12.60 and above.
3. phsycadelic screen corruption followed within 4 seconds by a memory overflow and game halt. never seen this problem again since i upgraded from directx 8.0 to 8.1

QUAKE 2: (thats 2 not 3)
1. opengl corruption. verticle line down center of screen. part of left side bluurs, most of right side blurs, including the gun. seems to be detonator version specific. 6.xx series seems ok, 7.xx corrupted, unsure of the rest.
cannot be fixed by messing with opengl settings.
2. frame rate bottlenecked at 43fps or 67fsp. more research needed. most likely to be opengl settings at fault. happens from time to time when antialiasing is applied.

NEED FOR SPEED 5 PORSCHE:
1. wierd memory overflow, covered in detail in one of my other posts. setting min&max swapfile to the same fixes it 95% of the time. still happens from time to time, often for no apparent reason. reboot always fixes it. (similar to UT mem overflow problem?) hmmm
2. orange screen on some tracks. - fixed by turning fog table emulation ON.

FREESPACE 2:
1. ultra slow response time for the mouse. move it, wait a second then watch the mouse pointer follow your path perfectly. on happens in game menus & animation. press escape to bring up the exit screen and the mouse moves normally. definately detonator specific. works with 7.xx, not with 6.xx unsure of rest.

BALDURS GATE 2:
4x frame rate drop. same as the problem with UT. seems to be a global direct3d-win2k issue.

*PHEW* thats about it.
in case your wondering, im a scientist by work and by heart, thus the methodical approach is standard operating procedure.

P.S. recently i found that 3dmark and winbench terminate unexpectly with no error messages on my system.
seems the 150Mhz fsb was at fault. (or the elevated agp speed of 75mhz).
im just wondering if my fsb is causing more subtle problems to rear their head. e.g. memory leaks.




Quote from the Hamster: "Why is it that Morons are just smart enough to understand how to breed?"

 

[lhgpoobaa]

a possibility...
dont think ive tried the 10.80's yet...
(god knows ive tried justa bout everything else)



Quote from the Hamster: "Why is it that Morons are just smart enough to understand how to breed?"

 

[Toejam31]

Thanks <b>very</b> much for the information! I didn't expect you to do it overnight! But it is much appreciated.

I've got Unreal, and Quake 2 (although I don't have that version of Quake installed ... I prefer 3.)

So far, on my rig, I haven't found anything like the problems you've experienced with Unreal, even with DirectX 8.0a. No screen corruption, no unusual drop in frame rates ... and with my cordless Logitech mouse, I'd actually expect laggy performance, but it functions fairly well. However ... I'll do some more testing, and also try out a copy of 8.1, and note any differences.

Note: I haven't used any drivers under the 11.xx series since I installed this GeForce3 card ... and I didn't care much for them. They caused the display screen to shift to the right about an inch, in any resolution, in all games. But that was all that was available at the time.

The only game I'm running on my main system that gives me any problems is Black & White. There's some minor stuttering when the game is set using the maximum display settings, but I attribute that to the game, not the system.

No memory leaks here, in:

MDK2
Quake3
MechWarrior 2, 3 & 4 ... and Pirate's Moon
Unreal Tournament
Serious Sam
Diablo II
Thief II
Tribes II
Deus Ex
Citizen Kabuto
Homeworld
Need For Speed - High Stakes
Half-Life
Descent3


No display corruption, crashes, bottle-necked frames rates, or lockups ... overall.

Perhaps, in addition to the overclocked AGP bus, you might be experiencing some heat issues with your video card, or a problem due to the memory bandwidth limitations of the card? What kind of overclocking results do you get when raising the memory speed? I found that with GeForce2 cards, there wasn't much increase in performance when overclocking the core ... in fact, it made the card slower.

I never liked <i>any</i> of the 7.xx series of drivers ... I had more problems with those than with any of the others.

I'd be interested in hearing about whether your FSB bus speed has a direct correlation to the corruption and memory leaks in the games.

I've got a couple of 21-inch Iiyama monitors, and one 17-inch Samsung. The Samsung monitor never has any kind of problems with refresh rates, no matter what OS, or driver version. The Iiyama monitor's peculiarities were previously mentioned ... no difficulties until Win2k SP1 was installed. The Iiyama monitors are about a year old ... the Samsung is new.

It would be nice if I could narrow down the culprit that cause the problem ... or the combination of components, thereof. Just when I think I've got a handle on the situation, someone else comes along with a similar problem, but with hardware that I thought would be exempt. ???

In my case, in conclusion:

No problems with GeForce2 cards.
No problems with Win98SE.
No problems with the GeForce3 in the original Win2k
No problems with ViewSonic, NEC, Micron, Samsung, or Sony monitors ... Just the Iiyama's, with SP1 and SP2.
No problems with 6.xx drivers ... but I can't test them with this video card ... they don't recognize the GF3.
All refresh rates available with GF2 cards, regardless of the OS.

But my results are inconsistent with what I've seen from other people, including you ... ... so my finding are inconclusive. Comments?

Toejam31




<font color=purple>My Rig:</font color=purple> <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847</A>

 

[lhgpoobaa]

well ive finally figured out the Quake2 issue... along with a few other curious artefacts

silly me forgot that q2 only likes 16bit colour, so even if the opengl settings were set to force 16bit if my desktop was set to 32 it would screw it up.
*embarrised grin*

as for the slowdown issue....
hmmms
still cant pin that down. still seems to be detonator specific but i would love to know exactly what is bugging it so bad.
specially when the drivers which do it worst are the offical leadtek ones for my specific card (6.6.6)

i tried the 10.80's and the 8.04's, just for curiousity
the 10.80's seemed ok, if a little slower than the others, and the 8.04's were much the same, but i also lost all the nvidia tabs in the display settings window. wierd.

im wondering if the via drivers/directx 8.1 are increasing the issues.
ive tried to find a directx remover, but it doesnt work for win2k... any suggestions? cauz i really want to try 8.0a.

P.S. i think its getting about that time of the year(was month with win98) when i need to reinstall.
to much messing around with cute programs.
somewhere along the line cd's no longer autoboot... and a few other annoying things.

im wondering if i should skip the via drivers all together.
caus when i first used my pc i didnt have em in for 2 weeks.
must also try the latest detonators.... 14.40's are around!




Quote from the Hamster: "Why is it that Morons are just smart enough to understand how to breed?"

 

[Toejam31]

Yep, if I was in your shoes, I'd be considering a fresh installation. Maybe a dual-boot with Win98, if for no other reason, just to run the older games with no Win2k issues. I'm doing this, myself ... I've got some older games that don't run well in Win2k. They aren't DOS-based, but any game that doesn't have an option to change the on-screen resolution looks odd on my display ... the newer, faster Detonator drivers tend to shove the screen about an inch over to the right in anything under 1024x768, which is irritating.

It certainly couldn't hurt to run the system without the VIA drivers ... if nothing else, just as a comparison. But if you put them in ... the last set I ran that didn't give me a lot of problems were the 4.29's. If you need a copy, I'm sure that I have them backed up on a CD, somewhere!

Tip: Install DirectX <i>before</i> you install the chipset drivers, and then install the video card drivers.

My brother is running the 14.40's in WinXp ... these are the only ones he hasn't had problems with ... he has a GeForce2 32MB card. He's going to try out NVMax today, and see if he can get the Coolbits option working. I'm going to hold off on checking them out until the end of the month; he's coming up to visit, and I'm going to attempt a triple-boot. I want to see how the GF3 runs in XP ... and if there will be any other driver issues before I consider dropping Win2k.

Toejam31

P.S. I'd hold off on overclocking after reinstalling until you are certain that any hardware issues are cleared up. Concentrate on one thing at a time ... it can get too confusing to figure out what is causing which problem when ... and how!

(Is that a proper sentence? LOL!

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