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Can't use PPC's for occasional use then

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February 17, 2005 3:29:49 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

I had no idea when I brought my Ipaq 1940 that if you don't contiunually
rechange the battery when dead or leave the thing plugged in all the time
you will loose all data settings etc with in days. Thanks goodness laptops
don't have this same annoying problem

Why are'nt PDA's designed so that the ROM will save settings without any
battery or a dead one ?

More about : ppc occasional

Anonymous
February 17, 2005 10:11:54 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

Easy there, Bill,

He's made a good point. That IS a weakness (consider storage
cards...they are a type of non-volatile flash ROM). And I'll get to
the ipaqstore momentarily...

I've been using PDAs for several years (since 99) now, and I
agree...granted, we can't use small magnetic drives (why the pc holds
the data, even if the CMOS batt goes, which ONLY pertains to the bios),
but I've often thought that there should be a better way than having to
worry every single night about finding juice for the ppc.

Your argument about backing up is correct to a point. Backups are
always a good thing. But depending on your needs, they can become a
PAIN IN THE REAR. First of all, backups aren't ALWAYS perfect. And
backing up every time that you *think* that you might put the PDA away
accidentally is a pain, too. It's been kind of a pain to me over the
years...and only for the PPC mainly (the palms held enough memory
charge to keep data for a few weeks. I tried it.)

Now...ipaqstore is only akin to a built-in storage card. But, you still
have to constantly back up to it for it to be of use. Ipaqstore, card,
same "constant need to backup".

Really, he didn't say anything out of line. And certainly nothing
worthy of name calling. It is a subject that should be considered (why
do you think the rest of the field personnel in my office REFUSE to use
them for any kind of fieldwork? And even I, who back up quite often,
won't trust one for my field data...Yeah, I could back up every 5
minutes...but for 500.00 worth of palmtop, I would expect better, too.
Plus I would get fired for wasting that much time.). No...I've
wondered why they don't use a different system as well.


Bill K. wrote:
> "noone" <noone@home.here> wrote in message
> news:42141c94@news.greennet.net...
> > I had no idea when I brought my Ipaq 1940 that if you don't
contiunually
> > rechange the battery when dead or leave the thing plugged in all
the time
> > you will loose all data settings etc with in days. Thanks goodness
laptops
> > don't have this same annoying problem
> >
> > Why are'nt PDA's designed so that the ROM will save settings
without any
> > battery or a dead one ?
> >
> >
> ROM = read only memory
>
> can't, by definition
>
> Why can't people study the manual so they don't blame their own
foolishness
> on others. If you keep your PDA settings and data backed up to your
PC or to
> a storage card (SD, CF, microdrive, etc) it takes just a few minutes
to
> recover from total power discharges.
>
> Your PC doesn't keep all this in ROM either. It has disc drives and
other
> storage media, and batteries the size of your PDA to power it all if
it's a
> laptop. Leave your PC unplugged long enough and it will 'forget' the
time
> and date and where to look for the boot hdd.
>
> Yup, your email address sums it up pretty well; lights on, but
> noone@home.here
Anonymous
February 17, 2005 11:04:18 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

"noone" <noone@home.here> wrote in message
news:42141c94@news.greennet.net...
> I had no idea when I brought my Ipaq 1940 that if you don't contiunually
> rechange the battery when dead or leave the thing plugged in all the time
> you will loose all data settings etc with in days. Thanks goodness laptops
> don't have this same annoying problem
>
> Why are'nt PDA's designed so that the ROM will save settings without any
> battery or a dead one ?
>
>
ROM = read only memory

can't, by definition

Why can't people study the manual so they don't blame their own foolishness
on others. If you keep your PDA settings and data backed up to your PC or to
a storage card (SD, CF, microdrive, etc) it takes just a few minutes to
recover from total power discharges.

Your PC doesn't keep all this in ROM either. It has disc drives and other
storage media, and batteries the size of your PDA to power it all if it's a
laptop. Leave your PC unplugged long enough and it will 'forget' the time
and date and where to look for the boot hdd.

Yup, your email address sums it up pretty well; lights on, but
noone@home.here
Related resources
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 12:08:14 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

Even if u leave ur girlfriend unattended..its gonna forget u..!
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 1:50:49 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

Reply to message from "Geocritter" <geocritter@earthlink.net> (Thu, 17 Feb
2005 10:11:54) about ""Re: Can't use PPC's for occasional use then"":


> Your argument about backing up is correct to a point. Backups are always
> a good thing. But depending on your needs, they can become a PAIN IN THE
> REAR. First of all, backups aren't ALWAYS perfect. And backing up every
> time that you *think* that you might put the PDA away accidentally is a
> pain, too. It's been kind of a pain to me over the years...and only for
> the PPC mainly (the palms held enough memory charge to keep data for a
> few weeks. I tried it.)

Personally I would write data to a storage card directly. In some ways I
feel better about these than I do a physically moving hard drive. And no
backup required to be persistent beyond the battery range, although I would
certainly suggest some methodology to be in use within some reasonable
timeframe, as I would for a physical hard drive.


..02
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 3:36:37 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

The handheld that doesn't forget
http://www.palmone.com/us/products/handhelds/tungsten-t...

Anybody have ideas of any Pocket PCs that "doesn't forget"?

--
Email: developer@jointsense.com.hk
Homepage: http://www.jointsense.com.hk/
GMT: +8

"noone" <noone@home.here> wrote in message
news:42141c94@news.greennet.net...
>I had no idea when I brought my Ipaq 1940 that if you don't contiunually
>rechange the battery when dead or leave the thing plugged in all the time
>you will loose all data settings etc with in days. Thanks goodness laptops
>don't have this same annoying problem
>
> Why are'nt PDA's designed so that the ROM will save settings without any
> battery or a dead one ?
>
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 3:36:38 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

If you're traveling, I can understand why the PPC wouldn't be in its
cradle for an extended period of time, but other than that scenario why
WOULDN'T you be in a situation where you're not synching and charging on
a regular basis?

Joint_Sense wrote:
> The handheld that doesn't forget
> http://www.palmone.com/us/products/handhelds/tungsten-t...
>
> Anybody have ideas of any Pocket PCs that "doesn't forget"?
>
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 3:36:38 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

In our cases, extended use in the field will make it kind of a pain.
Of course, you can fight with spare batts, and hope that you don't lose
information between changes (I've had that happen). But given that
under data collection use a ppc only lasts about 3 hours...well, it
kind of limits them.

Sometimes I miss the old Palm IIIx's...black and white, easy to read,
and a set of AAA's would last a good 2 weeks under heavy use...hehe
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 3:36:39 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

Reply to message from "Geocritter" <geocritter@earthlink.net> (Thu, 17 Feb
2005 21:52:29) about ""Re: Can't use PPC's for occasional use then"":

> In our cases, extended use in the field will make it kind of a pain. Of
> course, you can fight with spare batts, and hope that you don't lose
> information between changes (I've had that happen). But given that under
> data collection use a ppc only lasts about 3 hours...well, it kind of
> limits them.

Only three hours? I get easy 5 times that, with a nice backlight setting
and occasionally hitting a server for data pushes (wifi set on power save).
Extended batteries are nice...
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 9:51:54 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

So then the operating approach, if I were using multiple PPC's, would be
to ASSUME that the PPC's were, in a sense, disposable in that after each
use get the data off and backup?

xTenn wrote:
> Reply to message from "Geocritter" <geocritter@earthlink.net> (Thu, 17 Feb
> 2005 10:11:54) about ""Re: Can't use PPC's for occasional use then"":
>
>
> > Your argument about backing up is correct to a point. Backups are always
> > a good thing. But depending on your needs, they can become a PAIN IN THE
> > REAR. First of all, backups aren't ALWAYS perfect. And backing up every
> > time that you *think* that you might put the PDA away accidentally is a
> > pain, too. It's been kind of a pain to me over the years...and only for
> > the PPC mainly (the palms held enough memory charge to keep data for a
> > few weeks. I tried it.)
>
> Personally I would write data to a storage card directly. In some ways I
> feel better about these than I do a physically moving hard drive. And no
> backup required to be persistent beyond the battery range, although I would
> certainly suggest some methodology to be in use within some reasonable
> timeframe, as I would for a physical hard drive.
>
>
> 02
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 9:52:50 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

I went to Tahoe the first week of January and pretty much used my PPC
nonestop on the flights and ground travel - about 5 - 6 hours.

xTenn wrote:
> Reply to message from "Geocritter" <geocritter@earthlink.net> (Thu, 17 Feb
> 2005 21:52:29) about ""Re: Can't use PPC's for occasional use then"":
>
> > In our cases, extended use in the field will make it kind of a pain. Of
> > course, you can fight with spare batts, and hope that you don't lose
> > information between changes (I've had that happen). But given that under
> > data collection use a ppc only lasts about 3 hours...well, it kind of
> > limits them.
>
> Only three hours? I get easy 5 times that, with a nice backlight setting
> and occasionally hitting a server for data pushes (wifi set on power save).
> Extended batteries are nice...
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 10:50:40 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

One scenario is when you have multiple PPCs for development and you put one
that is not used in the drawer for extended period of time. It is more of a
convenience issue in this case.

--
Email: developer@jointsense.com.hk
Homepage: http://www.jointsense.com.hk/
GMT: +8

"David C. Holley" <DavidCHolley@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:%23lJS2vSFFHA.3840@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> If you're traveling, I can understand why the PPC wouldn't be in its
> cradle for an extended period of time, but other than that scenario why
> WOULDN'T you be in a situation where you're not synching and charging on a
> regular basis?
>
> Joint_Sense wrote:
>> The handheld that doesn't forget
>> http://www.palmone.com/us/products/handhelds/tungsten-t...
>>
>> Anybody have ideas of any Pocket PCs that "doesn't forget"?
>>
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 11:37:48 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

Reply to message from "David C. Holley" <DavidCHolley@netscape.net> (Fri,
18 Feb 2005 06:51:54) about ""Re: Can't use PPC's for occasional use
then"":

> So then the operating approach, if I were using multiple PPC's, would be
> to ASSUME that the PPC's were, in a sense, disposable in that after each
> use get the data off and backup?

Exactly . That works well for PPCs, laptops, even that odd number in a cell
phone. It wouldn't have to be after every use (depending on the importance
of said data), but definitely better than believing it was safely tucked
away as a single copy.

By pretending the hardware is disposable, one would not be caught offguard
when bad things happen.

Kudos, David - I wish more people thought that way when it came to
information storage.
February 18, 2005 8:03:10 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

I have used PPC's in the field for several days (up to 10 days bushwalking)
running mapping programmes and GPS's so it can be done. You have to trade
off the extra battery weight (in our case sealed gel cells!) against the
alternatives.

We were collecting spatial data straight into Mapinfo with forms for data
attributes. Data went straight to the SD or CF card so no real hassle if
everything dies. Backups on another SD card. Prior to PPC's we did (part) of
this work with pen and paper (pretty heavy) and then had to suffer days in
the office re-entering the data into databases.

The other bonus is that we carry all our past data with us so we can check
stuff as we go along.

They may not be perfect but for me it is sheer bliss over the alternatives.

"Geocritter" <geocritter@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1108695149.811246.251420@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> In our cases, extended use in the field will make it kind of a pain.
> Of course, you can fight with spare batts, and hope that you don't lose
> information between changes (I've had that happen). But given that
> under data collection use a ppc only lasts about 3 hours...well, it
> kind of limits them.
>
> Sometimes I miss the old Palm IIIx's...black and white, easy to read,
> and a set of AAA's would last a good 2 weeks under heavy use...hehe
>
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 9:37:35 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

Is that really true? The blurb says "With flash memory, the information on
your handheld is protected, even when you're on the go and don't have time
to recharge." That's true of the PPC too, as long as your information is
stored in the flash ROM or flash storage card. What you lose is the
information in the RAM. That can be user info (PIM), registry settings,
additional program files and such. Certainly losing that info is annoying,
and can be worse than that, if you keep important user data there instead of
in one of the Flash locations. Keeping your info in flash would mean that
you only lose PIM info, registry settings and additional program files out
of RAM. These items, in RAM, can be easily backed up automatically by
ActiveSync whenever you dock. They can be backed up by third party programs
away from the PC, automatically onto a flash card, prompted either by time,
or a detected low power condition. If all power is lost, it is a fairly
simple matter to get your programs and PIM info back from the backup, after
power is re-applied. The data in Flash, either internal ROM or add-on cards
was never in jeopardy.

May sound complicated, but once the auto backups are set up, they just run.
As far as why they are built that way...RAM is faster than ROM. It was an
initial design decision to go for the performance, I would expect.

If you are going to throw it in a drawer for a week or two, I would
recommend backing up the device, fully charging the battery and pulling it
from the PPC anyway. LiIons don't really like to be fully discharged and sit
that way with a load on them. Out of the PPC they keep a pretty full charge
for weeks.

--
Sven, MS-MVP Mobile Devices
"Joint_Sense" <developer@jointsense.com.hk> wrote in message
news:%23G93g7QFFHA.392@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> The handheld that doesn't forget
> http://www.palmone.com/us/products/handhelds/tungsten-t...
>
> Anybody have ideas of any Pocket PCs that "doesn't forget"?
>
> --
> Email: developer@jointsense.com.hk
> Homepage: http://www.jointsense.com.hk/
> GMT: +8
>
> "noone" <noone@home.here> wrote in message
> news:42141c94@news.greennet.net...
> >I had no idea when I brought my Ipaq 1940 that if you don't contiunually
> >rechange the battery when dead or leave the thing plugged in all the time
> >you will loose all data settings etc with in days. Thanks goodness
laptops
> >don't have this same annoying problem
> >
> > Why are'nt PDA's designed so that the ROM will save settings without any
> > battery or a dead one ?
> >
>
>
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 11:20:36 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

Well I am fundamentally paranoid (and a Business Systems Analyst at heart).

xTenn wrote:
> Reply to message from "David C. Holley" <DavidCHolley@netscape.net> (Fri,
> 18 Feb 2005 06:51:54) about ""Re: Can't use PPC's for occasional use
> then"":
>
> > So then the operating approach, if I were using multiple PPC's, would be
> > to ASSUME that the PPC's were, in a sense, disposable in that after each
> > use get the data off and backup?
>
> Exactly . That works well for PPCs, laptops, even that odd number in a cell
> phone. It wouldn't have to be after every use (depending on the importance
> of said data), but definitely better than believing it was safely tucked
> away as a single copy.
>
> By pretending the hardware is disposable, one would not be caught offguard
> when bad things happen.
>
> Kudos, David - I wish more people thought that way when it came to
> information storage.
February 19, 2005 12:43:31 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

noone wrote:

> I had no idea when I brought my Ipaq 1940 that if you don't contiunually
> rechange the battery when dead or leave the thing plugged in all the time
> you will loose all data settings etc with in days. Thanks goodness laptops
> don't have this same annoying problem
>
> Why are'nt PDA's designed so that the ROM will save settings without any
> battery or a dead one ?


Good point. My smart-phone manages to do this, but it only has 10mb of
memory - most PDAs have 32mb or 64mb. Memory that keeps data with the
power off is slower and more expencive.

--
Marc
See http://www.imarc.co.uk/ for contact details.
February 19, 2005 12:44:47 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

David C. Holley wrote:

> If you're traveling, I can understand why the PPC wouldn't be in its
> cradle for an extended period of time, but other than that scenario why
> WOULDN'T you be in a situation where you're not synching and charging on
> a regular basis?


erm - going away on holiday for a few weeks? Want to leave the PDA at
home, but leaving it plugged in would be a fire risk. I've always sloved
this by taking the PDA away with me !

--
Marc
See http://www.imarc.co.uk/ for contact details.
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 12:44:48 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

No, leaving the FORD vehicle with cruise control parked in the garage is
a fire risk.

David H

Marc wrote:
> David C. Holley wrote:
>
>> If you're traveling, I can understand why the PPC wouldn't be in its
>> cradle for an extended period of time, but other than that scenario
>> why WOULDN'T you be in a situation where you're not synching and
>> charging on a regular basis?
>
>
>
> erm - going away on holiday for a few weeks? Want to leave the PDA at
> home, but leaving it plugged in would be a fire risk. I've always sloved
> this by taking the PDA away with me !
>
> --
> Marc
> See http://www.imarc.co.uk/ for contact details.
!