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pschmid   11-08-2006 at 05:08:41 PM

Today's launch of the Nvidia GeForce 8 series marks the advent of next-generation graphics. What can we expect from graphics makers with respect to DirectX 10 hardware?

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Anonymous   11-08-2006 at 05:12:08 PM
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Hehe page is not even up yet, thanks for the heads up!

Other reviews, (thanks Dailytech)
Motherboard.org
GamePyre
Phoronix
TweakDown
Gotfrag
HardOCP

Read the GTS review from tweakdown, no oblivion test but pretty impress with the overall capabilities of this card! Especially if you limit you're gaming at 1920 and under...

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chuckshissle   11-08-2006 at 05:24:42 PM
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Sorry! The Requested Page was not Found!

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Anonymous   11-08-2006 at 05:39:34 PM
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The GamePyre technical part is the most interesting so far. Lots of benches with different AF and AA mode, pretty neat!

Oh and Toms review is up =) and its not even about the G80 :lol:

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clue69less   11-08-2006 at 06:03:57 PM
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Quote :

Today's launch of the Nvidia GeForce 8 series marks the advent of next-generation graphics. What can we expect from graphics makers with respect to DirectX 10 hardware?



Too bad it's strapped to the hip of DRM.

Reply to clue69less
Eurasianman   11-08-2006 at 06:11:26 PM
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Let's see some benchmarks!

Reply to Eurasianman
mitch074   11-08-2006 at 06:24:01 PM
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Personally I'd enjoy a comparison with OpenGL... You know, the language that actually defined the shader models... which has been providing GLSL (which maps exactly with HLSL) for a few years now, and which is, accidentally, platform-agnostic (well, not anymore, as Microsoft has decided to cut out support for OGL >1.4 out of Vista)...

It would be nice to compare DX10 and OGL 2.1, for a laugh.

Reply to mitch074
Bluefinger   11-08-2006 at 06:30:36 PM
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All I can say it is mighty impressive with all the technical bits, however, I would love to see some benchmarks. Of course that might not be possible for the moment, but that doesn't mean I won't wait for them.

Now all we need is AMD/ATI to release info on the R600... either they are refining the card, or trying to do a Nintendo, but the suspense is killing me...

Reply to Bluefinger
Eurasianman   11-08-2006 at 06:31:27 PM
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er, sorry buddy, I don't speak that language

Lamens term please? :D

Reply to Eurasianman
Eurasianman   11-08-2006 at 06:41:41 PM
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Hey, I just checked your 3DMark... um... Server 2003 for gaming?! or hosting?!

Reply to Eurasianman
fishboi   11-08-2006 at 06:47:16 PM
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Yes, lets see some benchmarks. This article isn't very objective. "Everyone run out and buy your card!". I mean really. I think the general consensus in the forums is wait and see.

I have no doubt that the new tech will be great, but as a consumer now, I would have to think about the upgrade path. Be wary of the hype.

Reply to fishboi
infornography42   11-08-2006 at 06:58:34 PM
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This is great and all but ultimately irrelevent unless you upgrade to Vista right away. I for one do not consider it worth it to upgrade to Vista.

Reply to infornography42
blueeyesm   11-08-2006 at 07:28:25 PM
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Well, I wonder if enough protesting from users might make Microsoft re-consider allowing XP and only XP to run DX10. XP will still have some life left in it.

The best way to protst in this sense would be to just not buy Vista, nor any hardware able to run DX10. This would put pressure on Nvidia and A/Ti/MD to get MS to concede.

Reply to blueeyesm
mitch074   11-08-2006 at 07:49:41 PM
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OGL=OpenGL
platform-agnostic: runs on MacOS X, Linux, Win9x/2k/XP, Solaris, BSD, mobile devices... Pretty much any platform, except Vista (due to deliberate software limitations).
GLSL: Graphics Layer Shading Language, part of OpenGL
HLSL: High Level Shading Language. Part of DX9/10.

The Wine developers use GLSL to reimplement HLSL in the Wine win32 reimplementation of DirectX. They describe it as being an easy 1:1 match, even for DX10.

Clear enough?

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strangestranger   11-08-2006 at 07:52:27 PM
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good enough article, pretty much just a round up of a speech by the microsfot guy but useful to get it consiely put down. i for one am looking forward to that mention of alot more units in RTS games and the genral freeing up of resources. it just goes to show how much inefiiciency there is in current D3D versions.

hopefully, this will open up the creative doors like never before and games will be unleashed. i know that probably has been said with every version of dx but it is looking good. hell, if enough games that i want to play come out i may upgrade when the dust settles on vista, wasn't so sure but you never know.

then again i have to be the voice of reason and mention that so much of every dx version goes untapped for so long. dx9 is an example in that games keep getting better and using more of its potential but one thing that should help is more uniformity of hardware so dev's won't have to play too much to the losewst card.

now, back to why i replied to labbby. i just wanted to say that tweakdown article was very interesting from what i have read as the GTS may be the more popular card depending on prices and also cause they featured my res which is always good. now as big as a lead as some may have expected when using the highest of settings. still beat the 1950 but it could be closer than people think although i am fairly sure not too many people who are even remotely interested in dx10 games will buy the ATI.

Reply to strangestranger
Eurasianman   11-08-2006 at 07:54:50 PM
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Thank you =)

Does OpenGL care whether the OS is 32bit or 64 bit?

Reply to Eurasianman
Twile   11-08-2006 at 08:06:03 PM
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Now if only we could get a good comparison between the G80 and R600 series... I've heard some for the G80 and it sounds quite good, then again I've heard the R60 will be amazing. Rumors though, let's hope they're true :)

Reply to Twile
mitch074   11-08-2006 at 08:07:47 PM
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it has run in 32 and 64-bit almost since its inception (Alpha...). Moreover, it is not a 3D language: it's a graphics abstraction language, able to do 2D, 3D, off-screen and distributed rendering.

As a matter of fact, it allows the scene to be computed on one computer, and actually rendered on another computer over a classical TCP/IP network - even if the server runs on a Linux 64-bit OS while the client runs windows XP 32-bit (this is still experimental, but it doesn't require a complete overhaul of the language to work - while Direct3D would need yet another one).

Reply to mitch074
Eurasianman   11-08-2006 at 08:38:50 PM
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Nice info.

I just wish I was in that field so that I could understand it better.

For a CPE major, I guess it's kind of sad I don't understand that, huh?

Then again, I still have 2 years left... :?

Reply to Eurasianman
ahnilated   11-09-2006 at 02:18:55 AM
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It's too bad that most people are not even considering that Vista and DX10 are totally strapped to DRM. I won't be upgrading to either if that means being forced into DRM.

Ahnilated

Reply to ahnilated
infornography42   11-09-2006 at 04:01:27 AM
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Quote :

DRM?



DRM stands for Digital Rights Management.

It is a term for software designed to protect copyrights to other software and is generally implemented poorly and without much forethought. Frequently DRM prevents legitimate usage of software more effectively than piracy.

Several of the last few games I have purchased did not run properly until I cracked them. As such I hate DRM both as a concept and as the implementation. It is a waste of development dollars and only really harms the legitimate user.

Reply to infornography42
Eurasianman   11-09-2006 at 04:15:46 AM
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Oh yea, I've heard of DRM, just didn't catch the abbreviation for it :oops:

What games have this??? :oops:

Reply to Eurasianman
infornography42   11-09-2006 at 04:37:05 AM
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Quote :

Oh yea, I've heard of DRM, just didn't catch the abbreviation for it :oops:

What games have this??? :oops:



Far. Too. Many.

It is much easier to list which ones do not. There is a thread over in games general discussion where we are working on that list.

Reply to infornography42
mitch074   11-09-2006 at 10:49:36 AM
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Just to add some information about DRM, if applied to something like, say, a book:
- you can't read it in any other place than a closed room at your own place. Forget reading in the bus or at work (you need to buy it again to read it in the bus, then yet again to read it at work), showing the book to other people results in instant page blanking out.
- if you want to quote it, you can; on the condition that you don't quote it more than once, after that you have to buy the book anew.
- you are not allowed to write anything in the margins; doing so requires a professional version of the book, please contact the editor.
- every time you read it, you are supposed to phone the editor to say that you're reading it, and what pages.
- if you buy the tome 2, and tome 2 can only be read if you aknowledge a different set or restrictions - sorry, Rights Management, then those new Rights apply to the first one.
- If you decide to get rid of tome 2, tome 1 becomes unreadable.

Welcome to Vista and DRM.

Reply to mitch074
clue69less   11-09-2006 at 02:10:46 PM
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Quote :

Just to add some information about DRM, if applied to something like, say, a book:
- you can't read it in any other place than a closed room at your own place. Forget reading in the bus or at work (you need to buy it again to read it in the bus, then yet again to read it at work), showing the book to other people results in instant page blanking out.
- if you want to quote it, you can; on the condition that you don't quote it more than once, after that you have to buy the book anew.
- you are not allowed to write anything in the margins; doing so requires a professional version of the book, please contact the editor.
- every time you read it, you are supposed to phone the editor to say that you're reading it, and what pages.
- if you buy the tome 2, and tome 2 can only be read if you aknowledge a different set or restrictions - sorry, Rights Management, then those new Rights apply to the first one.
- If you decide to get rid of tome 2, tome 1 becomes unreadable.

Welcome to Vista and DRM.



It's good to see I'm not the only one bumming on this. Although your list above is a good primer, I fear that after reading it my next bowel movement will be delayed and will arrive highly dessicated and only with excessive force. Greed, it's all about the money. The Napster backlash has many tenticles. I have this fantasy that DRM will lead to the downfall of MS...

Reply to clue69less
Bluefinger   11-09-2006 at 02:24:05 PM
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DRM needs to die a horrible death... preferably taking down a big company with it just for dramatic impact... MS I think is too big for that to happen, but ya never know... ever since Starforce was implemented, I think the concept of DRM turned very nasty indeed.

Reply to Bluefinger
clue69less   11-09-2006 at 02:32:08 PM
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Quote :

DRM needs to die a horrible death... preferably taking down a big company with it just for dramatic impact... MS I think is too big for that to happen, but ya never know... ever since Starforce was implemented, I think the concept of DRM turned very nasty indeed.



Yea, well people thought Sony was forever but there has been huge consumer backlash from their little CD rootkit, so maybe there is hope.

All this greed-induced blindness makes me think of kingdoms in old testament times.

Reply to clue69less
mitch074   11-09-2006 at 03:00:03 PM
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Right now I use DRM-less stuff, listen to independant music and read old books.
Linux Power; Creative Commons rule.

Reply to mitch074
kentlowt   11-09-2006 at 03:56:23 PM
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I beg to differ on only being interested in the Direct3d part of direct x 10. I am concerned about the audio since I operate a DAW(digital audio workstation).

Reply to kentlowt
mitch074   11-09-2006 at 05:13:52 PM
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it looks like Vista's DX10 will stop up/downsampling all variable frequency sound samples to 16-bit, 44100 Hz and match sound I/O to actual hardware more closely. On the other hand, you will now be completely unable to hit the hardware directly.

One reason is DRM, to prevent re-recording of DRM-protected songs.

Reply to mitch074
clue69less   11-09-2006 at 06:15:04 PM
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Quote :

it looks like Vista's DX10 will stop up/downsampling all variable frequency sound samples to 16-bit, 44100 Hz and match sound I/O to actual hardware more closely. On the other hand, you will now be completely unable to hit the hardware directly.

One reason is DRM, to prevent re-recording of DRM-protected songs.



Will this interfere with software like Acid or ProTools? I'm guessing not.

Reply to clue69less
engrpiman   11-09-2006 at 07:13:37 PM
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I don't see why Microsoft just does not trash direct x. if they used open Gl and open AL they could save the money that it cost to develop direct x and there games could be sold to people using Linux, or Gasp OS X .

If the people down at ID Software can make nice Open Gl game engines why can't other people.

Also if Microsoft screws Open GL wouldn't that hurt all the companies that make CAD and 3d rendering software. and the math + science software

Rino3d, Autocad, Maple, MATlab, 3d studio max.. the list goes on ... Come on MS think of the poor engineers, Physics , math people that need Open GL to do their work..

---//>

Reply to engrpiman
c4onastick   11-09-2006 at 08:08:09 PM
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Quote :

Well, I wonder if enough protesting from users might make Microsoft re-consider allowing XP and only XP to run DX10. XP will still have some life left in it.

The best way to protst in this sense would be to just not buy Vista, nor any hardware able to run DX10. This would put pressure on Nvidia and A/Ti/MD to get MS to concede.


Heck yeah. I'd love to see the benchmarks. I'm willing to bet that DX9 will be faster on XP, than DX10 will be on Vista running all Microsoft's "upgrades/trinkets" in the background. The CPU/Mem requirements were staggering.

Reply to c4onastick
Eurasianman   11-09-2006 at 09:12:43 PM
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To get more people to buy their OS, duh! LOL

Well, with Microsoft now working with Novell SUSE or whatever, I wonder if that means that they might make it easier to run DX games under Linux.

Reply to Eurasianman
R0B0T   11-10-2006 at 12:59:53 AM
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so its true that DX ten will not run on XP? thats gay, i can get the hardware, i can even get vista, but i do not want to, i do not want all the extra crap that vista has, i just want to run XP with DX 10

Reply to R0B0T
infornography42   11-10-2006 at 01:39:16 AM
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Quote :

so its true that DX ten will not run on XP? thats gay, i can get the hardware, i can even get vista, but i do not want to, i do not want all the extra crap that vista has, i just want to run XP with DX 10



Right there with you.

Hell I'd pay decent money just for DX10 on XP.

Reply to infornography42
c4onastick   11-10-2006 at 02:29:57 AM
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Yep, word is DX10 will only be available on Vista. Really lame. Its a prime example of how Microsoft forces you to by their crap (instead of doing what everyone else has to... make good stuff). They take one thing they do well, and package it with all the crap that SUCKS. Win XP comes packaged with IE, Outlook Express, all kinds of garbage that's virtually impossible to remove from the system. (You can disable IE, but its really still there.) Ditto I'd be right there with you, I'd pay for DX10 as long as I got to keep XP. If I wanted animated menu's and a dashboard, I'd get a Mac with OS-X.

Reply to c4onastick
caamsa   11-10-2006 at 02:56:38 AM
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Errr I am waiting for direct X11 :wink:

Reply to caamsa
R0B0T   11-10-2006 at 08:25:21 PM
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Why cant they make two versions of windows, one for normies, and another low profile streamlined version, like for instance, Windows Vista Gamers Edition, or remarket XP to the gaming market with Windows XP Gaming edition? that would be nice, since we have to use windows to play games.

Reply to R0B0T
Eurasianman   11-11-2006 at 07:18:15 AM
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Because of pirates?

With Vista, it'll be harder for peole to pirate copies, meaning more money for Windows. With games being DirectX10, means, Microsoft rakes in more money...

*sighs*

Reply to Eurasianman
mitch074   11-12-2006 at 10:21:57 PM
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well then, give some cash to the Wine project; they are thinking about creating a DX10 layer for WinXP (that would go hand in hand with implementing DX10 in Linux).
I'm not joking.

About sound and DRM in Vista and sound software requiring direct access to the hardware:
add latency. Screw up your timings.

Reply to mitch074
Eurasianman   11-13-2006 at 12:58:24 AM
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If wine is working on creating something to work with DirectX10 API, I wonder if more people will switch to linux as well :P

Reply to Eurasianman
infornography42   11-13-2006 at 02:54:11 PM
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Depends on #1. How successful they are
#2. How easy it is to use and install
and #3. How quickly word spreads

Historically, WINE is one of the more frustrating applications on Linux to get working. I havn't tried it in over 5 years, so it might be better now, but back then.... well lets just say I wouldn't want to repeat that experiment.

Reply to infornography42
mitch074   11-13-2006 at 03:24:52 PM
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right now, installing Wine is that difficult:
- download the package for your distribution.
- install said package (rpm or apt) using your distribution's tools.
- run winecfg.

The latter creates the virtual drive, converts fonts, gives most relevant directories drive letters, selects best available sound subsystem, says if vertex/pixel shading is hardware-supported or software emulated (or turned off), and sets emulation at Windows 2000 level. On first run. In the user's home directory (so, don't call winecfg as root).

The only modification I usually make to it is specify which drive is a CDROM drive in the advanced options - this allows some copy protection systems to work out of the box.

By the way, Wine now autodetects joysticks.

Reply to mitch074
Eurasianman   11-13-2006 at 03:40:54 PM
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Don't you mean, "installing Wine is not that difficult:", right?

Reply to Eurasianman
mitch074   11-13-2006 at 03:42:53 PM
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there is this little thing called irony...

Reply to mitch074
infornography42   11-13-2006 at 05:52:58 PM
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Do you still have to jump through hoops to get it to work with a variety of games?

I vaguely remember something about having to load different configs for several different games and it not even working at all with several others.

Reply to infornography42
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