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System Builder Marathon: $1,250 Enthusiast PC

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November 27, 2008 5:50:09 PM

On this, the second day of our System Builder Marathon, Don turns down the price tag of his mid-range build looking for a sweet spot just above the $1,000 marker. Let's see what sort of hardware he found for it!

System Builder Marathon: $1,250 Enthusiast PC : Read more

More about : system builder marathon 250 enthusiast

November 27, 2008 6:44:56 PM

yea for that kind of money i would definatly be buying a entry lvl core i7 920 setup with ddr3 1333, 3gb memory. for gaming, maybe go with a 4870, but in my opinion a geforce 260 or 280 would be better, because it's powerfull with games and you can use CUDA. cuda is really taking off tmperg has a video encoding software withat uses the graphics card, and it gives you a +400% to rendering video and such. such as bluray- and DVD encoding
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-9
November 27, 2008 7:33:03 PM

Nice build, good performer for the price, looking forward for the next article.
It would be great to see an article in which several options of cooling would be compared to see which one gives a better overclock using the 8500 or 8600, including air and water cooling, this chips are awesome to do some OC.
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2
Related resources
November 27, 2008 7:39:56 PM

I'd be interested to see the GTX 260 (216) in SLI on the mid range build as the price for two is a bit more but still comparable with the 4870x2 and, from what I've read, should be more powerful than the radeon card.

I don't know that you can consider the i7 a mid range platform when you have to spend ~350-400 bucks on the montherboard alone. I'd certainly use the i7 for the high end build though.

Thank you for your efforts.
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1
November 27, 2008 7:45:36 PM

There are some of us who who receive a great deal of disconfort thinking of Intel as the only microprocessor manufacturer around. If for no other reason than to maintain some competition in this critical industry, please include an AMD based system.
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2
November 27, 2008 7:48:16 PM

[the typical user isn’t typically going to see a big real-world performance jump with a RAID array anyway]...
It look like you never waited crysis to load.

... and the power is far overkilling. It could be saved money on it
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-9
November 27, 2008 8:34:29 PM

Would of liked to see a direct comparison to the $625 build in all but the gaming benches. Is the more expensive mobo, ram, cpu combo worth it?
Put the 4850 in the $1250 system then do some game benches or put the 4870x2 in the $625 system.
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7
November 27, 2008 8:47:59 PM

I would definitely like to see a Core i7 configuration next time.
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1
November 27, 2008 9:01:25 PM

$276 vs $467 for a 5-8% increase in performance?

direct comparison

$1250 $625 %dif
Itunes 00:49 00:52 +6.1%
lame 01:30 01:36 +6.6%
TMPGE 04:46 05:04 +6.2%
Xvid 02:26 02:52 +17.8%
Mainconcept 03:04 03:17 +7.1%
Photoshop 01:12 01:15 +4.2%
3d Studio 00:45 00:49 +8.8%
Average +8.1%
Price diff for cpu,ram,mobo +69%
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6
November 27, 2008 9:53:27 PM

For the next build I would like to see an i7 920, a gigabyte extreme x58 board, 6GB of Gskill DDR3 1333 PC 10666 with cas 7, a pair of 4870x2's water cooled and 2,3,and 4 64GB Gskill SSD's in raid 0. As the price of SSD's comes down, my interest in how a bunch of them in Raid 0 perform goes up(inversely proportionally).
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-6
November 27, 2008 11:25:21 PM

I think I would have picked up a cheaper p45 board and used the extra cash to pick up a couple of fans to help with the cooling issues. Otherwise pretty nice gaming build. I don't know if Enthusiast is the name I would use with 530 bucks going to graphics but thats me. Appreciate the info. Nice to kinda be able to compare the E2180 E5200 E8500 and Q6600 all at stock and oc'ed. Core i7 would be nice to add to the list as well as phenom in your upcoming builds.
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1
November 27, 2008 11:47:45 PM

good job th. way to listen to the readers :) 
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1
November 28, 2008 1:14:47 AM

An i7 comparison would be nice. It looks like alot the the i920's are pushing 4ghz on air.

A recommendation to save some scratch for a video card:
Go with a dual channel DDR3 set instead of tri. The difference in performance will be negligible, and you can save a ton of money to put towards a video card.

With the extra $$$ go for a gtx280, or perhaps 2xgtx260s in SLI. And don't waste money on the 216 core versions, as there's almost no performance increase over the 192 core, and you can save quite a bit on the combo.
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2
November 28, 2008 2:47:09 AM

gallesolThere are some of us who who receive a great deal of disconfort thinking of Intel as the only microprocessor manufacturer around. If for no other reason than to maintain some competition in this critical industry, please include an AMD based system.


Unfortunately, these are "bang for the buck" builds and while AMD typically saves money, their products also often reduce performance. This is especially a concern since most of our benchmarks, just like real world users would expect, are limitted to the number of threads they support. Further, overclocking simply burries AMD under Intel.

Tom's hadn't the opportunity to try the new AMD cores, and these certainly weren't available in retail when the article was set up. The same goes for Core i7, which was released the middle of this month while the articles were set up the end of last month.

Remember that yours is just one voice, and imagine the flood of responses had Tom's used a slow AMD processor that didn't overclock well and relied on 3 or 4 thread apps to beat Core 2 Duo, with these dual-thread and single-thread benchmarks.
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-3
November 28, 2008 3:14:49 AM

Good write up, I would have chosen a P45 board and used the saved money for a water cooling system.

I would like to see a E7200 make it in the next $625 budget build.
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1
November 28, 2008 4:09:22 AM

omg graphics cards arent like cpus >< they dont need sub 60/70 degree temps.
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-4
November 28, 2008 4:14:15 AM

the build is good,the case,powersupply,memory. though i'm still puzzled on the temperatures made by the dual core on 1.4 volts.

but, i don't agree a lot of points in the conclusion.
water cooling is still too expensive and complicated, why not get a thermalright heatsink if you think you could have gone higher speeds, yet i still doubt it even if you watercool,maybe additional 200MHz.
i know, you know that a single 4850 is more practical than a 4870x2 since it as though we're paying for a dual card setup just to improve gaming only in Crysis or Farcry and other games don't give noticeable difference.
yet, that core i7 system you're planning is quite interesting. could lose a couple of FPS from this $1250 system but miles apart in rendering and encoding tasks.
around this budget, an overclocked quadcore makes more sense since this system won't differ much in performance compared to $625 build that also has a 4 GHz chip on it.
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-1
November 28, 2008 4:27:39 AM

Now see, this is a much more realistic build. I even like the selection of case! That didn't hurt TOO much, did it? :) 

I'd like to see what kind of performance the 4+ GHz dual-core and 4870x2 can do against the last SMB's mid-range system.
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1
November 28, 2008 5:10:11 AM

Please build the I7 system as soon as possible. I return from Iraq in January 2009 and what to build a I7 system like the one mentioned.
Also is there any way you can start adding a monitor in with the system price since you need one to use the system.
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-2
November 28, 2008 5:38:58 AM

This is a very realistic bang-for-the-buck build. Thanks for a great article.
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2
November 28, 2008 5:41:57 AM

You said the typical user isn't going to see a difference with a raid 0 setup. But I thought you also said this is an "enthusiast" build?
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0
November 28, 2008 6:14:58 AM

Another great article and like kitsilencer says above a "realistic bang-for-the-buck build" an enthusiasts gaming build. Yes a RAID set up would help some users and yes a quad system would help in other applications, but for an enthusiasts gaming system this is a sensible build. Whoever came up with the partnership with Newegg and implemented it did a huge service for the members and readers of Tom's Hardware.
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0
November 28, 2008 9:02:52 AM

Great article. Couple of points:

I have an E8500 E0 revision clocked to 4.2Ghz Orthos stable with vCore at 1.3v and using a Tuniq Tower, and it is comforting to see my temps under load are, like yours, about 63-65C. Main difference is that mine is sitting on a Gigabyte P35C-DS3R which probably cost half as much as the DFI. I think you were, perhaps, a bit overcautious with your choice of board.

Secondly, I was very surprised with the Supreme Commander stats. I was under the impression that SC was, like Flight Simulator, a heavily CPU bound game. Ie, the higher the overclock, the better the FPS. Any thoughts?
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Anonymous
November 28, 2008 11:03:42 AM

Really good article, Good choice of processor and graphics card, think it would have been interesting to see a p45 chipset being used there instead of x38 and faster ram, but all in all, a good build indeed
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0
November 28, 2008 1:46:09 PM

V3NOMomg graphics cards arent like cpus >< they dont need sub 60/70 degree temps.


Dude, if you're so l33t that you feel you can handle a 100 degree Celsius GPU temp, you go right ahead and turn your fan speed down... :D 
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3
November 28, 2008 1:48:37 PM

zodiacfmlwater cooling is still too expensive and complicated, why not get a thermalright heatsink if you think you could have gone higher speeds...


The heatsink we choae is pretty much on par with Thermalright's best, for way less cash. Google some reviews.
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0
November 28, 2008 1:51:27 PM

Kirth GersenI was very surprised with the Supreme Commander stats. I was under the impression that SC was, like Flight Simulator, a heavily CPU bound game. ie, the higher the overclock, the better the FPS. Any thoughts?


Supreme Commander seems to be just as heavily bottlenecked by the CPU as it is by the GPU. After benching it for a while I find that when you raise the performance of one, you will quickly get bottlenecked by the other.
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0
November 28, 2008 2:01:09 PM

one of the best to date. If not, it's definitely towards the top. Thanks!
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0
November 28, 2008 2:59:02 PM

I thought the parts selections were very relevant. While I too would likely have chosen a P45, I can't fault the reasoning behind the choices.
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0
November 28, 2008 3:53:24 PM

I think this build is a great one. I like it better than the $625 build, which I felt was too oriented toward premium parts for overclocking and not enough at high-perfomance at stock speeds. While it's true now that only a handful of games demand such a powerful graphics card, any machine for over $1000 should give good performance for two years. This was the right graphics card choice for that kind of longevity.
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0
November 28, 2008 5:01:50 PM

the typical enthusiast
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0
November 28, 2008 5:34:31 PM

Nice article... The only real problem I have with this build is that the motherboard you used was way too expensive. (That and you chose a powercolor product... yuck!) You could have EASILY gotten away with something like the gigabyte EP43-DS3L which OCs the E8500 to 4.2 GHz+ no problem for $80 off newegg. For Xfire future proofing, the EP45-UD3P is only like $130 (both prices from a month ago) and is as good or even a better board than the DFI X38 anyway.

For the guy that was comparing the $625 box to this one and whining about 6% in all the apps not being worth the cost difference -- the radeon X2 makes this one first and foremost a gaming box, and it smokes the $625 one in that respect if you have a 22"+ monitor.
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November 28, 2008 6:20:13 PM

the PNY is the cheapest CAS4 you could find? I went with G.Skills Black PI for the same reason, except it was only $50 on newegg.
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-1
November 28, 2008 6:33:30 PM

PNY was the cheapest CAS4 when we spec'd it out a couple weeks ago, prices change fast...
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1
November 28, 2008 6:36:33 PM

Prices change VERY fast, really.
Every other day I check my wishlists to see if they've gone up or down and by how much. Usually it's between ten and twenty dollars for a system (including monitors). Newegg does a good job of keeping some products on an almost-perpetual sale price, but sometimes it might only last a week or two.
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0
November 28, 2008 6:39:22 PM

ECC (parity) memory, or some reliability goal?
Reliability should be a primary goal
-- choose parts so the computer still works with a high probability in 3 years.
Computers have parity checking virtually everywhere but in memory,
and 10 years ago virtually all computers had parity memory.
This year, even Microsoft now recommends ECC memory.
Yet you virtually cannot find computer parts supporting ECC memory.

Most server computers use ECC memory.
My single processor AMD Opteron computer with Tyan S2865 motherboard and ECC memory
failed after one year. I attribute that failure to the Tyan motherboard,
for which the BIOS wouldn't upgrade and even a new BIOS chip failed to get
that computer working.
On another computer, all mounted disk drives (including my mounted backup drive)
were scrambled (including 100 hours contracted software work that I must make-up),
which could have arisen from a parity problem.

It is very difficult to find reasonable cost ECC parts.
If the CPU supports ECC, its motherboards usually also support ECC.
Last week I found that AMD Athlon 64 X2, 3.1GHz, ADV6000DoBOX,
supports ECC memory.
I bought that CPU for $90 and bought ECC memory,
which cost far less than AMD's standard server-grade Opteron CPU's.
I will not buy computer parts that do not support ECC memory
-- I try to avoid the once-every-four-year disastrous loss from an ECC error.

As another point of reliability, I have about a 500GB dozen disk drives that I
shuffle between work and home, using as backups for my home computers
but keep offsite at work.
About 1/3 of these 500GB backup disk drives have failed in the last 2 years.
I try different disk drives, hoping to find more reliable drives.

Unfortunately, nobody (including TomsHardware) well addresses hardware reliability.
It requires using hardware for years, observing failure on some parts and no failure on other parts. Or, the parts could be abused with heat and G-forces
until the parts fail.
Even if reliability measures came a couple years late,
reliability ratings for many parts of several manufacturers
would let us see which part lineages were more reliable within a manufacturer's offerings. For example, could we expect the Western Digital RE3, model WD5002ABYS for enterprise markets to be reliable?


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-2
November 28, 2008 6:50:32 PM

I definitely enjoyed the article and its aim at thethose of us that dont quite have the money fto spend on a $1500 system, but still have a bit of money. i would definely intested in one of these system builds wthat uses nvidias gfx cards instead of ATI's.
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0
November 28, 2008 6:57:07 PM

Cleeve, I i can understand that, I don't know how long the G.Skill RAM has been available for, which is something i didn't think about. and WheelsofConfusion I understand that, I have had my wishlist on newegg since mid september, but even not on sale, theG.Skill ememory is running for $55 not on sale, $50 when it is.
/nom]PNY

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... the cheapest CAS4 when we spec'd it out a couple weeks ago, prices change fast...[/citation]
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0
November 28, 2008 7:04:32 PM

Great read, good choices.
Possible alternatives: drop the x2 and get a core 216(saves $250), drop the after market cooler for, CoolIT's phase cooler ($120)and jack up the clock speed. Or just get a whole WC kit for the cpu/nb(if necessary) and one for the gpu and really turn it into an Enthusiast system =D
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0
November 28, 2008 10:02:20 PM

Good choice of hardware; I might not choose those particulars part but the general idea and specifications are very sound. Water cooling is still overkill at this price range as for $300; I would just go for a Q9550 and Raid HDDs.

AMD boys really need to keep quiet. Until the arrival of Phenom II, AMD doesn’t have anything that’s worthwhile to mention unless you are building around 780/790G or don’t plan to overclock.
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0
November 29, 2008 12:32:41 AM

saw it. yeah the xigmatek should be nice.
thermalright's best ultra has 4 degree advantage over the xigmatek on a quadcore though priced $60 versus $42.

CleeveThe heatsink we choae is pretty much on par with Thermalright's best, for way less cash. Google some reviews.

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0
November 29, 2008 11:11:50 PM

CrashmanUnfortunately, these are "bang for the buck" builds and while AMD typically saves money, their products also often reduce performance. This is especially a concern since most of our benchmarks, just like real world users would expect, are limitted to the number of threads they support. Further, overclocking simply burries AMD under Intel.Tom's hadn't the opportunity to try the new AMD cores, and these certainly weren't available in retail when the article was set up. The same goes for Core i7, which was released the middle of this month while the articles were set up the end of last month.Remember that yours is just one voice, and imagine the flood of responses had Tom's used a slow AMD processor that didn't overclock well and relied on 3 or 4 thread apps to beat Core 2 Duo, with these dual-thread and single-thread benchmarks.


Gee, Crashman - you only have one voice too - and to slobber your comments as infinite wisdom is disgusting - put an non-oclok Phenom in and see what happens - my guess? ONLY slightly slower in the bench esp on crysis. AMD simply has a superior architecture - but wait for the PhenomII - that's what it will take to shut up morons like you.

In the meantime, the test will not be considered - otherwise, you would not be making this comment. (a hard concept to grasp)

Take a look at the cpu-limited results passed off as OK just cos the rig is still running - at that clock rate, results s/b better! Future is this rig is doomed already. The internal chaos of this cpu is what is demonstrated - but you won't believe that - nor will you believe that the chaos is there even before the oclok. shocking isn't it?

Another end of life recommmendation, just like the cheaper rig. Totally amazing being on the payroll, huh. Or what is it - contempt prior to investigation? Brainwash? How to cheat in bench? lots of that going on = lies.

Try to remember this 3-6 months from now.
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-2
November 29, 2008 11:31:59 PM

Pei-chenGood choice of hardware; I might not choose those particulars part but the general idea and specifications are very sound. Water cooling is still overkill at this price range as for $300; I would just go for a Q9550 and Raid HDDs.AMD boys really need to keep quiet. Until the arrival of Phenom II, AMD doesn’t have anything that’s worthwhile to mention unless you are building around 780/790G or don’t plan to overclock.

Amazing, and simply not true. But a very typical uneducated comment, designed to influence others.
Prove it - swap out and insert a Phenom, no oclok, and report it. Then oclok it with ACC - they won't do this.
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0
November 29, 2008 11:32:14 PM

What was the E8500's stepping?
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0
November 30, 2008 3:42:03 AM

I really like this build. I never thought I'd really like a system with these price points, but the 8500 is sweet, and who wouldn't want a 4870.
If you want to still have an awesome system you could shave a little money and still get a sweet mobo, and you could also bump the 4870 down to a single 4870. Be a few hundred cheaper and still kick ass.
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0
November 30, 2008 8:34:33 AM

I would try a set of 4850s in crossfire. 2 3870s pull a decent 35 FPS for me in Crysis at very High 1680x1050 at 4xAA
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November 30, 2008 1:11:05 PM

8500 is good cpu, but for users that running multiple tasks in the background, quad can make a difference, I remember long time ago toms did mixed benchmarks, with multiple tasks at the same time. With out it you cant get full picture. It will be nice to add it at some point to System Builder Marathon's.
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November 30, 2008 2:15:23 PM

I like the system, very surprised you got a 4870X2 in there.
But I noticed that you said 30fps is barely playable; I get an average of 15 with dual 8600GTs in SLI on Crysis and can play it with no problem
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0
November 30, 2008 11:55:00 PM

I would be happy to have the 650$ system, I'm still rockin' my beat up dimension 2400.
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