Unfair comparison

[rmp007]

I’m also a big fan of ATI, we must be honest, the Nvidia 8800 Hardware is far superior than any other graphics card on the market.
But, we also we must not compare garlic with onions!
In this fight, it cannot be one Heavy and other Medium-Heavy fighting together.
Let just wait for the R600, (just like Sonogoku, training in heaven for the big fight)
What’s the point to have right now a DX10 card if there are no applications to roll on?
I think that ATI is playing well with the two feet on the ground, waiting for Windows Vista, and some games DX10 ready, and taking advantage of the last few moths of DX10 emptiness for tuning drivers…
So, fellows, lets wait and be patient.

 

[greyhound81]

but this does not answer whether you like your mum or dad

 

[a123456]

It's not really an unfair comparison because the X1950 XTX is what is out there right now. Those who are getting the 8800s right now are those who pay the premium for being first movers.

In return, they get solid AA/AF for the next few months, and if that is what they want, then they get the card.

Besides, when the R600 comes out, there may be a refresh in the form of a 8900 and ATI can worry about that at that time. People who want to get something now to enjoy Oblivion or whatever don't want to wait until Jan/Feb. For those who can wait because they're happy with the current setup, then we'll see what both sides have to offer in a few months.

Just keep in mind that while you (and many others) can be patient, there are lots of impulse buyers that want something right now and that has to be taken into account. It's possible that they buy now and buy an R600 also when that comes out, etc.

DX10 games won't be out in force for a very long time even after the R600 is out, so that's not really much of a consideration.

Basically, they're not exact competitors as the X1950XTX is a bit cheaper and gives slightly less performance. We'll get a much more accurate pictures once the R600 is out, but the current comparison is not completely invalid because they're the closest competitors right now.

 

[3lfk1ng]

It is kind of unfair. It like comparing World of Warcraft to Everquest...(New vs old, instead of World of Warcraft to Everquest 2)....but wouldn't you rather get more substance from a review comparing the new with the new?

I completely agree....I think it would be the utmost wisest decision to wait for R600 vs g80 head to head comparisons (as well as rd600 vs 680i).

But if your pockets are deep and your patience is thin by all means go for what ever makes you feel good.

 

[Gneisenau]

I agree with A123456.
3lfking, it would be unfair comparing WoW to Everquest as long as Everquest 2 exists. If Everquest 2 didn't exist. It wouldn't be unfair at all.

The fact that ATi has nothing in DX10 out doesn't make it 'unfair' to compare nVidia's best with ATi's best.

 

[JPack]

Unfair? What are you, in grade school?

This is the real world. You don't wait for the competition; you leapfrog them. Maybe Intel should wait a year for AMD to catch up to 65nm? Idiota...

 

[kamel5547]

I’m also a big fan of ATI, we must be honest, the Nvidia 8800 Hardware is far superior than any other graphics card on the market.
But, we also we must not compare garlic with onions!
In this fight, it cannot be one Heavy and other Medium-Heavy fighting together.
Let just wait for the R600, (just like Sonogoku, training in heaven for the big fight)
What’s the point to have right now a DX10 card if there are no applications to roll on?
I think that ATI is playing well with the two feet on the ground, waiting for Windows Vista, and some games DX10 ready, and taking advantage of the last few moths of DX10 emptiness for tuning drivers…
So, fellows, lets wait and be patient.

Do we have to go through this everytime anyone releases a new architecture (and the competition isn't ready)?

The only unfair comparison is speculation on whether unreleased hardware is better than released hardware.

I think ATI is playing the cards they were dealt... their architecture isn't ready so they aren't releasing it, not some sort of desire to wait for the cards to be used for DX10.

 

[angry_ducky]

What’s the point to have right now a DX10 card if there are no applications to roll on?

The point is to be able to get decent FPS in games like Oblivion with maximum details.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

The fact that ATi has nothing in DX10 out doesn't make it 'unfair' to compare nVidia's best with ATi's best.

Except for they aren't priced anywhere near the same, that's what's 'unfair'/uneven.

The proper comparison for 'heads-up' is GTS versus XTX. not the GTX which is more expensive than any other card out there (other than workstation cards).

I agree you compare what you have, but anyone thinking it's an equal comparison when putting the XTX against the GTX isn't trying to be 'fair' by any stetch of the imagination. They are in different leagues period, and priced accordingly.

 

[I]

Written like a true fanboy.

1) If you don't care what has the best performance at today's games, then pick what is best at your budget or heat level, power requirement or whatever.

2) If you do care, thinking "wait" is senseless, as someone who takes the "wait" attitude will always be waiting for that next great thing to come along, and if only you wait another few months or quarters, something better WILL always come along.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

For point b) you miss one major point, it's waiting 'til Jan not June, and there's good reason to wait for these cards since they are selling somewhat on 'DX10' capability as well, if that's anyone's concern that can't be guaged now, especially without another solution to compare against.

So if you're only looking for DX9 performance, then sure no reason to wait too long since the performance is good, but also no need to buy day 1 when prices are above MSRP. If you've got a large LCD and the coin, the it's definitely a good time to buy for current performance, but once againly only if you're buying it for current perrformance.

However, if you're looking to spend the money as the only card you'll own for 1-2years and care about DX10 performance, then there's every reason to wait and see what that performance is, especially since the apps, games and the other card to compare to don't come out 'til next year.

Definitely shouldn't keep waiting for the next thing on the horizon, but there is enough reasons to wait for this card if you're thinking long term. What's 2 months for a card that's supposed to last you 2 years?

 

[ches111]

This similar argument goes back to something as simple as the AMD vs. INTEL argument of the past few months... If AMD releases its next generation processor it should be compared against INTELs previous crown holder.

It is not fair because AMD does not have a current gen... Blah blah blah...

Any time you have a market leader "ATI 1950 series or NV 7950 series for instance" and a new product in the same category comes out you must gauge that newer device against the current leader. How hard is that? I could see it if we were talking about two totally different categories here, but we are not. We are talking about class leading performance graphics adapters.

In fact if the 7950GX2 series were the class leading adapter (take any fanboyism stance you want on this) then the 8800 should be compared to that as well. How else do you gauge a performance increase? There has to be a baseline for which to draw reasonable conclusions.

You see the word BASELINE was bolded and Highlighted because in this instance it carries the most weight/worth of this current discussion.

The X1950XXX and 7950XXX series both defined new performance baselines. When all fanboy comments are pushed aside you are left with facts.

I would like to see the R600 as well but ATI does not have an offering.

 

[ches111]

I agree with the APE,

The timing involved almost forces the reasonable consumer (may be forced to purchase now anyways depending on your situation) to "wait and see". A proposed Jan release of the ATI counterpart is close enough (based upon your own threshold) to wait for the direct comparo of both DX10 devices.

But also being truthful you can not dismiss the DX9 capabilities of the cards either as they give you the FIRST hint of the cards capabilities. We will soon have a new box for us to play in called DX10. I am sure that the 8800 will establish a new BASELINE for that environment.

I am also sure that ATI will be shooting to exceed both DX9 and DX10 baselines that it sets.

 

[3lfk1ng]

Unfair? What are you, in grade school?

This is the real world. You don't wait for the competition; you leapfrog them. Maybe Intel should wait a year for AMD to catch up to 65nm? Idiota...

I hate to be mean (not really :twisted: ), but your a moron...don't ever post here again.

We aren't talking about this from a business standpoint. We are talking about recent reviews and how the comparison could be considered unfair.

Nvidia's most recent cheating [11/11/06]

The big news continues to be that of the GeForce 8800. Surprisingly, we have a distasteful bit of info to pass along. We heard from two separate manufacturers yesterday information that made us step back and say What?!? Here's a quote from one of the e-mails that was all but identical to the other. One line says it all.

Furthermore NVIDIA has specifically allocated this card to certain reviewers in order to control what information is sent to the press.

As far as the GeForce 8800 reviews Jeremy noted yesterday, I didn't see a single one that came from a review site whose integrity I question; but being informed that NVidia is directly controlling review authorization for third party companies based on their desire to directly control what is and is not said seems like some strong arm stuff we've seen from them before. I guess it all goes to show you, the larger a company is, the more tempting it is for them to behave outside the moral scope of the rest of the business community.

With all this said, I can bet you won't see any more NVidia reviews here after NVidia's marketing department reads our calling a spade a spade. However, this is a nice thing about the OCC. This site is something Brian, Jeremy and I enjoy. And with our not being a profit driven site, we can speak our hearts. Call things for what they really are and not give a damn about consequences.

Questionable ethics of NVIDIA's marketing and PR departments aside, it looks like the 8800 has a lot to offer. Here are two more huge reviews that are beyond question, that Jeremy inadvertently left out along with a few new ones.

Kinda leaves a bitter flavor in your Nvidia fan boy mouth doesn't it JPack (lame name btw)


In other news...

It's great to see that we are making strides in the gpu category, and that we have a new king to the throne...but the prince (r600) has yet to be born in order to see who really deserves to take the throne. Whoever performs better will be the rightfull king.

Granted Nvidia makes the best card right now....but thats only when you compare it to previous generation video cards...where is the competition??...there is none...yet.

Ati:
Last generation: x1xxx series
Current: x2xxx series (r600)...to be released in January

Nvidia:
Last generation: GeForce 7 series
Current generation: GeForce 8 series (g80)...just released this week

Comparing the old with the new has no relevance. Current generation results are all that matters in the real world.

Let me dumb it down for you a little bit:
Choice 1) -Lets say you purchase a 07' SUV just because it is better than the competitors 06' SUV...and they havn't released an 07' model yet.
-Now lets say 2 1/2 months later the competitor finally releases their new 07' suv and it is much better than the SUV you just purchased...
They are both 07' models...but clearly you made a regretable decision by not waiting to compare the two.

Now on the other hand

Choice 2) -Lets say you purchase a 07' SUV just because it is better than the competitors 06' SUV...and they havn't released an 07' model yet.
-Now lets say 2 1/2 months later the competitor finally releases their new 07' suv and it is not as good as the SUV you just purchased...
They are both 07' models(current generation)...but clearly you got lucky because you did not wait to see if one was better than the other.

This first choice is always the wisest unless your willing to take the gamble

I sure hope that made sense to you.

The r600 series has not yet been released. So there is nothing to compare it with yet...so it would be wise to wait to see what the current generation of graphics cards have to offer.

Maybe you find that its great to compare new with old (Then new audi vs the old bmw) to show what progress the industry is making. But for real world results it means absolutely nothing until you compare the new with the new.

Enthusiasts like myself wait to see the difference between two modern technologies before we throw down $2000-$3000 on a new rig only to make a possibly regretable decision too early in the game.

This isn't about comparing nvidia's best vs ati's best atm.... (some noob is going to quote me on this...just you wait and see) its about waiting to see who offers the best CURRENT GENERATION SOLUTION.

Current Generation:
Mobo chipsets: Ati rd600
Nvidia 680i

Gpu: Ati R600
Nvidia G80

Anything outside of that category is not current generation.
*refer back to the car model I presented earlier*

~3lfk1ng

 

[I]

For point b) you miss one major point, it's waiting 'til Jan not June, and there's good reason to wait for these cards since they are selling somewhat on 'DX10' capability as well, if that's anyone's concern that can't be guaged now, especially without another solution to compare against.

I'm not missing the point at all, it just doesn't make any sense to hold out on performance you want NOW, only to pay a premium later after putting up with lower performance than (apparently some think they need) then plan to use that for 2 years.

Not just a premium but a true premium IF the card was actually worth waiting for and you adopt early, and then no games yet to take advantage of it so it just depreciates by hundreds of dollars (Edit: not really "hundreds" but at least $100 wouldn't be unusual) while you wait for some DX10 games. Then games show up, and you find that they didn't even have any decent DX10 card to develop on so you get very little out of DX10 in the beginning.

By the time you get any meaningful benefit from the card, you could have just bought a card THEN instead and would've saved so much money and time as to completely offset anything else.

It all comes back to the age-old wisdom, you don't use a crystal ball to buy a video card.

 

[powerbaselx]

(...)You don't wait for the competition; you leapfrog them. Maybe Intel should wait a year for AMD to catch up to 65nm?

In more soft terms, that's the point here. NVidia will sell a new product which by the way is it's new top model and have DX10 capabilities (and ready for Vista).
AMD/ATI will prepare their own similar card and surely that won't take too long...

 

[djgandy]

What’s the point to have right now a DX10 card if there are no applications to roll on?

The point is to be able to get decent FPS in games like Oblivion with maximum details.

Exatcly.

It still runs Dx9, but will run DX10 too. Why should it not be compared just because it has new capabilities?

 

[fatcat]

It has nothing to do with being fair or not, at least not as I see it.

In this case it's more of an evaluation of the progress being made and compare features of newer vs older generation card. This process is by nature unfair.

 

[djgandy]

I see it as there is 2 products on the market. If the competitor is behind is that the fault of the other company?

What else is there to compare it to?

Bare in mind it's also easier to chase than be chased. NV are setting the mark here.

 

[darkstar782]

Meh, we can only compare what is availible.

Saying we shouldnt draw comparisons between the 8800 and the x1950 untill we see R600 is like saying we should wait for K8L or K10 to compare Intel and AMD.

ATi originally scheduled the x1800 for a few months after the 7800 - it took *months* to come out. Its possible we'll see the same with the R600.

Yeah there are no DX10 games right now, but its also the fastest DX9 part going.

Its actually competitive in DX9 benchmarks with x1950XTX Crossfire, and in the UK I can get 8800GTXs for £400, while the x1950XTX is still ~£300. That makes an x1950 Crossfire setup 50% more expensive.

The 8900GTX die shrink to 80nm or 65nm may be faster... but if I had a 7800GTX I'd be happy with it now, so I assume I'll be happy with an 8800GTX when the 8900 is out.

 

[BMFM]

It's perfectly fair.

Now, suppose it is not... What then? Would it be to blame THG for their interactive charts just because they've placed a GeForce 6200 and the Radeon X1950 XTX on the same page? Or maybe for placing a Athlon 64 2800 on the same page as a Core 2 X6800 on a CPU chart? :roll:

Please, get real!

 

[maddogjj]

It is kind of unfair. It like comparing World of Warcraft to Everquest...(New vs old, instead of World of Warcraft to Everquest 2)....but wouldn't you rather get more substance from a review comparing the new with the new?

I completely agree....I think it would be the utmost wisest decision to wait for R600 vs g80 head to head comparisons (as well as rd600 vs 680i).

But if your pockets are deep and your patience is thin by all means go for what ever makes you feel good.

well if you can sh** a next generation ATI card I'm sure someone would be happy to test it against the 8800's. But since I'm fairly certain you cant then what would you have us test the 8800's against? just curious? or should Nvidia just sell cards and have no benchmarks ??

 

[choirbass]

lol... thats possibly what hes thinking (along with the OP)... because its the only DX10 card out right now... you should compare it to nothing, only other DX10 cards, when they come out... ...nevermind DX9 performance, that isnt applicable (even if it is capable of processing DX9)... because the new card is a DX10 capable card... and no other card is, so, it cant be benched and compared then...

thats also the same as saying its unfair to benchmark a SM3.0 capable card against a SM2.0 capable card, because under SM3.0, it will experience reduced performance compared to a SM2.0 only card (and because the SM2.0 card doesnt offer SM3.0, so, you cant compare them in any benchmarks together), because of that difference... and, the same with a SM4.0 card (G80, no less)

or, its unfair to compare an x1900 series gpu to any other DX9 card, for whatever reason, or compare 6600GT PCIe performance to 6600GT AGP performance, because theyre different interfaces... or compare AMD to INTEL, because their architectures are different... or compare 10k raptor HDDs against any 7.2k HDD, because their rpms are different, and no other company has 10k capable sata HDDs either, so we should wait until other companies start producing 10k sata drives [before we start comparing raptors]... and when WD produces 15k sata HDDs in late 2008 or whenever, you cant compare them to anything, because other companies will only have just started coming out with 10k sata HDDs (and at that point, you can only compare their 10k HDDs with raptors from before 2007, so their rpms match)

when DX10 comes out, you can *almost* guarantee that the G80 wont seem as fast as it does now, wont score as high under DX10... DX9 simply just isnt as demanding, same with DX8, DX7, DX6, etc

until DX10 comes out, for all practical purposes, the G80 is only a DX9 capable card, along with every other card out now... cant even process DX10, so to speak, because it isnt available yet.

 

[Heyyou27]

I’m also a big fan of ATI, we must be honest, the Nvidia 8800 Hardware is far superior than any other graphics card on the market.
But, we also we must not compare garlic with onions!
In this fight, it cannot be one Heavy and other Medium-Heavy fighting together.
Let just wait for the R600, (just like Sonogoku, training in heaven for the big fight)
What’s the point to have right now a DX10 card if there are no applications to roll on?
I think that ATI is playing well with the two feet on the ground, waiting for Windows Vista, and some games DX10 ready, and taking advantage of the last few moths of DX10 emptiness for tuning drivers…
So, fellows, lets wait and be patient.

You do know that the Geforce 8800GTX is also able to play Direct X9 games, and it's performance is far greater than the X1950XTX in this. Now please, give me one reason to not compare the 8800GTX to the X1950XTX. Truthfully, the X1950XTX is a horrible price/performance card in comparison to the X1950XT or other R580 based cards. When the R600 comes out, we'll compare that to the Geforce 8800GTX's performance, and maybe you'll stop complaining as it seems you may have some sort of disliking for Nvidia.

Truth is, the Geforce 8800GTX is by far the fastest consumer graphics card on the market. I myself will not be buying it as it is no use to me until the release of either UT2007 or Crysis, and by March 2007 we'll see the Geforce 8 refresh and R600 on the market.

 

[maddogjj]

lol... thats possibly what hes thinking (along with the OP)... because its the only DX10 card out right now... you should compare it to nothing, only other DX10 cards, when they come out... ...nevermind DX9 performance, that isnt applicable (even if it is capable of processing DX9)... because the new card is a DX10 capable card... and no other card is, so, it cant be benched and compared then...

thats also the same as saying its unfair to benchmark a SM3.0 capable card against a SM2.0 capable card, because under SM3.0, it will experience reduced performance compared to a SM2.0 only card (and because the SM2.0 card doesnt offer SM3.0, so, you cant compare them in any benchmarks together), because of that difference... and, the same with a SM4.0 card (G80, no less)

or, its unfair to compare an x1900 series gpu to any other DX9 card, for whatever reason, or compare 6600GT PCIe performance to 6600GT AGP performance, because theyre different interfaces... or compare AMD to INTEL, because their architectures are different... or compare 10k raptor HDDs against any 7.2k HDD, because their rpms are different, and no other company has 10k capable sata HDDs either, so we should wait until other companies start producing 10k sata drives [before we start comparing raptors]... and when WD produces 15k sata HDDs in late 2008 or whenever, you cant compare them to anything, because other companies will only have just started coming out with 10k sata HDDs (and at that point, you can only compare their 10k HDDs with raptors from before 2007, so their rpms match)

when DX10 comes out, you can *almost* guarantee that the G80 wont seem as fast as it does now, wont score as high under DX10... DX9 simply just isnt as demanding, same with DX8, DX7, DX6, etc

until DX10 comes out, for all practical purposes, the G80 is only a DX9 capable card, along with every other card out now... cant even process DX10, so to speak, because it isnt available yet.

HAHAHA wow after this post I dont think anything else has to be said lol.