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AS5 vs Ceramique

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November 10, 2006 7:01:26 PM

I have a question:

What's the difference between AS5 and AS Ceramique? As far as I can tell, the stats on AS5 are better, and Ceramique costs a tiny bit more. So, what's the point of having Ceramique around? Why would you choose Ceramique over AS5?

More about : as5 ceramique

Anonymous
a b K Overclocking
November 10, 2006 7:55:09 PM

Something to do with the grit of the surface. PM wusy =) he knows
November 10, 2006 8:16:28 PM

Thanks... will do. I've been into PC hardware for a long time, but I've just started getting obsessed with OCing and cooling :D .
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Anonymous
a b K Overclocking
November 10, 2006 8:27:29 PM

Thats one of the bets part IMO!

Pushing the enveloppe, while keeping the hardware happy!
November 10, 2006 8:35:24 PM

If you PM him put the results here. I am interested to.
November 10, 2006 8:38:29 PM

Perhaps I am getting mixed up, but from memory...

(and I'm not going to the Arctic Silver website because I'm on dial-up and I don't have the bandwidth to spare just now)

...isn't Ceramique an actual glue for permanently cementing heatsinks to chips etc., whereas Arctic Silver 5 is just thermal grease for CPU/GPU where you may remove and reapply components quite often?
November 10, 2006 8:47:03 PM

No... they have AS Adhesive paste that is glue, but Ceramique is a different product (also built for CPUs as far as I can tell... nearly the same as AS5). I'm PMing Wusy now :D .
November 10, 2006 8:49:47 PM

Quote:
Thats one of the bets part IMO!

Pushing the enveloppe, while keeping the hardware happy!

Yeah... I never wanted to OC before because I didn't want to risk system stability. But, with some of the cooling options these days you can OC and run just as cool as stock w/ stock cooling. So, might as well :D .
Anonymous
a b K Overclocking
November 10, 2006 8:59:52 PM

stopped being lazy and searched the forum.
quick hint:

Quote:
ANY liquid based thermal compund is better than the overpriced Arctic Silver 5.

Also surfaces above 1200grit quality is not suitable for AS5. This is where Arctic Ceramique dominates.


He'll give you a more detailed answer though
November 10, 2006 9:03:46 PM

Quote:
stopped being lazy and searched the forum.

In my defense the search engine sucks. I tried searching for "PS3" when I knew that was in the topic of the thread I was looking for, and it got 0 results (and I was searching topic).
Anonymous
a b K Overclocking
November 10, 2006 9:09:43 PM

i does suck, why cant you search Username AND keyword
:
Please specify either keywords or author for search, and not both.

I mean, how hard is it to do a SQL query on 2 row ARRGGGGHHH
November 10, 2006 9:09:54 PM

AS5 is supposed to be more expensive but a reseller can charge whatever they like, I suppose.

AS5 does have marginally better thermal transfer, but not enough to really matter, particularly on chips with a heat spreader. If you have an open flipchip, it matters the most but even then not enough to even get up and walk across a room to grab the AS5 if you already had the Ceramique in your hand.

AS5 is more trouble to clean up, for asthetic reasons- after wiping off Ceramique you dont' have the dull grey residue so visible as with AS5. AS5 is slightly capacitive but hopefully you won't put so much on that it'd matter. Ceramique is a handy field-polish for 'sinks, if you don't have the time or supplies on hand to lap a 'sink, vigorously rubbing some Ceramique against the sink will polish it and force some compound/metal mixture into the microscopic valleys of the 'sink base which is good.

It would be easy to simply state "AS5 is better" because of it's marginally better performance, but seldom (actually, never) should a part be that close to overheating that it should matter one way or the other, but by the same token, every tiny little benefit in cooling will additively contribute to lower temps, so if you have several sub-optimal things combined, it might be a few degrees higher temp which is most significant to overclockers.
November 10, 2006 9:27:05 PM

Well, I think the main difference is: particles in Ceramique are smaller than AS5.

Quote:
AS5 now uses ceramique in it. The answer is simple: Ceramique particules are smaller than Silver particules so both in a single paste does cover much better holes between particules so there's more contact area/heat transfer. Also note that Ceramique isn't conductive at all and it does remove easily while Silver IS conductive and is recommended to use a special cleaner for it to be perfectly clean (remember that silver jewelry tend to rust so you have to clean) That covers it.


I've been trying to find extra information, and it appears as if Ceramique is the best for smoother surfaces, and AS5 is better suited for not-so-smooth HSF surfaces.
November 10, 2006 9:28:53 PM

Quote:
i does suck, why cant you search Username AND keyword
:
Please specify either keywords or author for search, and not both.

I mean, how hard is it to do a SQL query on 2 row ARRGGGGHHH

Yeah, plus the fact that I've searched for something that I KNEW was the title and it came up w/ 0 records kind of ruins it's credibility. (for that PS3 one I ended up searching for "cell" in body text and for some reason that found it w/ no problems)
November 10, 2006 9:59:12 PM

the thing is there is no super magic thermalpaste.

none that will drop your temps by more than a couple degrees.

ambient temps are the key. well and airflow too.
November 10, 2006 10:17:09 PM

Thanks... found that after I created this post.
November 10, 2006 10:28:17 PM

Good post, I, with useful tips and no misinformation!
November 11, 2006 12:38:34 AM

Quote:
Well, I think the main difference is: particles in Ceramique are smaller than AS5.

AS5 now uses ceramique in it. The answer is simple: Ceramique particules are smaller than Silver particules so both in a single paste does cover much better holes between particules so there's more contact area/heat transfer. Also note that Ceramique isn't conductive at all and it does remove easily while Silver IS conductive and is recommended to use a special cleaner for it to be perfectly clean (remember that silver jewelry tend to rust so you have to clean) That covers it.


I've been trying to find extra information, and it appears as if Ceramique is the best for smoother surfaces, and AS5 is better suited for not-so-smooth HSF surfaces.

The particle size difference is not significant enough to distinguish either as being more suitable for flatter surfaces. No compound you apply will be applied evenly enough and on flat enough surfaces that it's only one particle deep. If there's anything that matters most on flatter surfaces, it's that the compound have a slightly lower viscosity so it flows better, but for practical purposes we may be splitting hairs here, if the surfaces are not as flat as possible the solution is not a choice of thermal compound, it's to fix the surfaces or replace (them).

The overgeneralized idea that "AS5 now uses Ceramique in it", is more untrue than true. While they do have the same basic ingredients, obviously the key is the silver in the latter and different % ingredients. It'd be more accurate to say they're both built on the same base stock (synthetic oil).
November 12, 2006 6:16:49 PM

Ceramique (or any white goop) is better for really soft surfaces as stated above many times.
But AS5 is better for bare chips and the like.
November 13, 2006 4:33:52 AM

Cool... thanks for the info.
November 13, 2006 5:12:29 AM

Temperature. The AS5 is good for air cooling and water cooling. The Ceramique would be good for phase change, peltier and other sub-zero cooling methods. That's as far as I have notice, but I haven't tried the Ceramique for myself.
November 13, 2006 7:04:29 AM

Ceramique is good down to -150C, while AS5 is good down to -50C. Not many coolers will need to go below -50C.
Coke. Pepsi.
November 14, 2006 4:54:20 AM

Quote:
Ceramique is good down to -150C, while AS5 is good down to -50C. Not many coolers will need to go below -50C.
Coke. Pepsi.

Yeah... I don't think any consumer-level products would need anywhere near -50c. And since Ceramique is a consumer-level product, it seems like this might not be the entire reason for it.
November 14, 2006 11:59:11 PM

one conducts one does not

i think the ceramique is used when you dont wait it to conduct. ie chipsets
and the as5 is used for cpu.
November 15, 2006 8:06:23 PM

That's one difference, but I think AS5 is actually recommended more than Ceramique for bare CPUs (suggested by rwaritsdario, who knows his stuff).

It doesn't matter much to me if it conducts electricity, because I'm not drawing lines on my mobo with thermal paste.
November 15, 2006 8:46:58 PM

No, BOTH are non-conductive. AS5 has some *capacitance* while ceramique doesn't. AS5 has higher thermal conductivity. Ceramique has smaller average particle size. It's all a trade-off.
November 15, 2006 8:50:43 PM

I wouldn't hesitate to put either one on any chip I intend to attach a heatsink to. I have used both and like both about the same, though the Zalman stuff is nice to apply and performs just as well, it is more expensive though.

Anyone know what people that do LN2 runs use? Ceramique only says it is good to -150C and I have seen LN2 runs below that (I think.)
November 15, 2006 8:58:47 PM

Quote:
Ceramique has smaller average particle size.

The exact reason why its better for very well lapped CPUs. Its base is runnier too.
November 15, 2006 9:10:14 PM

runnier...more runny?

Apparently runnier is a word, sounds to me like funnier...
November 15, 2006 9:17:39 PM

Quote:
runnier...more runny?

Apparently runnier is a word, sounds to me like funnier...

more runny*, there, I just made a grammar mistake just for you.
November 15, 2006 9:52:37 PM

Quote:
As far as I can tell, the stats on AS5 are better, and Ceramique costs a tiny bit more.

Does it?
Over here, AS5 is about twice as expensive for the small ones.
When I last bought it, 22gr Céramique was just a bit more expensive than
the 3.5gr AS5... o.O
November 16, 2006 1:02:26 AM

I think list price on AS5 is supposed to be more, but for some reason Newegg was selling AS5 for less when I checked last.
November 16, 2006 5:57:27 AM

AS probably makes more AS5 than Ceramique and when the egg gets a huge pallet full of AS5 they have to get rid of it somehow :) 
November 16, 2006 7:03:49 AM

You would probably want to use AS5 in most cases.

The thermal conductivity is AS5 is 175% greater than that of the Ceramique, also it has a lower thermal resistance.

I am pretty sure in the grand scheme of things the particle size difference is a non-issue.
November 16, 2006 7:17:52 AM

Actually, the thermal conductivity is only 75% greater. Since thermal resistance = 1/thermal conductivity, I would expect the resistance to be smaller.
November 16, 2006 1:12:16 PM

Quote:
Actually, the thermal conductivity is only 75% greater. Since thermal resistance = 1/thermal conductivity, I would expect the resistance to be smaller.


you're missing some terms. The thermal resistance is not simply the inverse the thermal conductivity.

within the processor/thermal paste/heatsink system there's three sources of resistance (or 4 depending on where you're control surfaces are defined). It's like analyzing a composite wall. Two points of contact resistance and the thermal resistance within the thermal compound - dependent on the thickness of that surface and the area which it spreads over.
November 16, 2006 3:44:22 PM

Quote:
stopped being lazy and searched the forum.

In my defense the search engine sucks. I tried searching for "PS3" when I knew that was in the topic of the thread I was looking for, and it got 0 results (and I was searching topic).
A birdie told me to use Google's domain search function.
November 16, 2006 9:44:21 PM

Quote:
Actually, the thermal conductivity is only 75% greater. Since thermal resistance = 1/thermal conductivity, I would expect the resistance to be smaller.


you're missing some terms. The thermal resistance is not simply the inverse the thermal conductivity.
Sorry, I was thinking "thermal resistivity", which IS simply the inverse of thermal conductivity.

Looking in the Wikipedia, they define "thermal resistance" (as used in a building context) to be the thermal resistivity multiplied by the material thickness. Since we're just comparing the properties of compounds, it's probably easier to stick with an intensive property, like thermal resistivity. (Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity )

Although you're correct that for the whole system we need to include thermal contact resistances, the hope would be that due to the fluid nature of the thermal compound, the thermal contact resistance would be negligible. In fact, the whole point of the thermal compound is to reduce heatsink-CPU thermal contact resistance.
November 17, 2006 1:36:53 AM

Quote:

Although you're correct that for the whole system we need to include thermal contact resistances, the hope would be that due to the fluid nature of the thermal compound, the thermal contact resistance would be negligible. In fact, the whole point of the thermal compound is to reduce heatsink-CPU thermal contact resistance.


thats where the ceramique would do the better job - because of its smaller molecule size it would do a better job of filling in the interstitial spacing in the surface.

But I doubt it would be all that much greater, the other synthesized oils in either of the compounds would probably fill in the spaces better than the actual molecules.
November 17, 2006 2:17:50 AM

I have applied both numerous times.
The bottom line for me was.
Ceramique running Ortho’s 1 hour 61C
AS5 running Ortho’s 1 hour 57C
The Ceramique requires a break in period of thermal cycles (cool down )
For chip sets I would use the Ceramique.
!