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How will DirectX9 cards react to dx10?

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  • Graphics Cards
  • Directx
  • Graphics
Last response: in Graphics Cards
November 14, 2006 11:02:23 PM

I want to buy a direct x 9 card right now, and dont want to wait for mid range dx 10 cards to come out. How will dx9 cards react? They will still be able to play dx 10 games right? just on a lower setting? or will they crap out?

what will happen if I install directx10, with the dx9 card in?

More about : directx9 cards react dx10

November 14, 2006 11:05:53 PM

At first, games will have backwards capability. Meaning they will run on DX9 and DX10.

Games will run on DX9 shaders, so the quality won't be as good as if on DX10 shaders.
November 14, 2006 11:14:27 PM

jus buy a dx10 high end, and forget about upgrades for a long time
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November 14, 2006 11:38:20 PM

These DX9 cards will revolt when the new kid comes to town and is better than the old "big kid" in the neighborhood at kickball. DX10 will smash DX9's woodchip houses on the playground and take their candy.

Naturally DX9 cards will react and be scared, but in large numbers (eg: 5-8 7900GTX's/X1900XTX's in a room with 1 or 2 8800GTX/S) I would not want to see the carnage.

That is my estimated reaction.
November 15, 2006 12:11:35 AM

I'm pretty sure that if you install DX10 your DX9 card will perform just fine albeit without most of the eye candy. If the promises are true the more astounding part will be the fact that frame rates wont appear to suffer very much for double the perceived improvement in visual effects.

As result DX9 cards will be like the original Xbox after 360's release. One day worth $199 the next around $80. It will just take longer because it will be tied to Vista and new games which only a handful are worth buying each year will be slow to arrive.
November 15, 2006 12:18:50 AM

Assuming that the early DX10 cards perform like the early DX9 cards, you should have no problem for the next year or longer playing any games if you purchase a DX9 card now. When the ATI 9700 Pro launched on the eve of DX9 it looked superb over the previous generations best (Nvidia ti series). But the Nvidia ti cards still held their own in every game and actually outperformed the first Nvidia DX9 cards. Get yourself a nice DX9 card now and worry about a DX10 card no earlier than this time next year. There is no reason to spend the money on a DX10 card now when there are no games that you need it for and you won't be able to see the performance benefits in any current games unless you game at ultra high resolutions. When there are games and competition from ATI the prices on DX10 cards will drop significantly. Even if you can't wait a whole year, you could probably spend $200 on a nice midrange card and get a midrange DX10 card for $250-300 this summer. That beats paying $450 for Nividia's mid-high range offering now and hoping that it plays DX10 games well.
November 15, 2006 12:28:04 AM

Quote:
jus buy a dx10 high end, and forget about upgrades for a long time


I second 8)
November 15, 2006 12:53:32 AM

I needed a GPU now and that is what I did, 8800 GTX should be good for two years.

Also I play everything at 1600x1200.

I agree that in terms of benefit it's not a great time to buy anything over say $200-250 but this thing rocks.
November 15, 2006 12:54:21 AM

When you first install Vista it will ask you what card you will be running, Dx9 or Dx10. If you chose Dx9 Vista will use its own version of DX9.0L which is backwards capable version. But DX9 "will" run faster on Vista than XP thats for sure as its better optimised OS. I am for sure NOT going to be the first kid on the block to have DX10 cards, as they are most likely going to be bugs to work out! For those of you who think everything will work perfectly, your fooling yourself.
November 15, 2006 12:56:08 AM

evidence please, give us source :!:
November 15, 2006 1:11:25 AM

Think about it a moment gents. DX10 is for Vista and new games written. Now I for one have learned (from many years) to wait for rev.2 on anything microsieve sends out. Game writers will also have their learning curve. DX9 should be fine for the next 2 years after release of DX10. Unless of course you want to buy early and buy the right to bitch. BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT YOU WILL BE DOING!! Just a word from a old(anybody remember TRS90) timer)
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
November 15, 2006 1:21:35 AM

Early gaming report under DX9 indicate a 5%+ drop with vista, according to anand....whats up with that?
November 15, 2006 1:22:55 AM

do you have a link?
a c 411 U Graphics card
November 15, 2006 1:39:10 AM

Quote:
Early gaming report under DX9 indicate a 5%+ drop with vista, according to anand....whats up with that?


I know the article you are referring to but I can't seem to find the link to it.

Anywaste, you gotta realize that it was most likely Vista RC2 (at best) that was used. I'm sure the retail version will be better optimized. Also, I believe initial results for Win XP showed that gaming performance wasn't as good as with Windows 98.

I don't think I need to ask which OS you are currently using.
November 15, 2006 1:44:55 AM

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that if you install DX10 your DX9 card will perform just fine albeit without most of the eye candy. If the promises are true the more astounding part will be the fact that frame rates wont appear to suffer very much for double the perceived improvement in visual effects. ...


Dude you have no clue. Where are you getting your info from?

a) you won't be able to install DX10. It comes preinstalled in vista only and isn't compatible with XP.

b) to use DX10 you *need* dx10 hardware. That s all. If you don't have dx10 hardware, vista has a dx9 compatability fallback so it can still run dx9 games. There are NO percieved improvement in effects as its actually running DX9.

c) games run at least 15% slower in vista than XP. so frame rates WILL suffer.
a b U Graphics card
November 15, 2006 1:51:24 AM

DX9 cards will not be able to run DX10 apps at all. DX10 is wedded to shader model 4.0. Previous versions of DX could support various shader versions. All DX programmers must perform various capabilities tests on the cards now to determine what shader version (and capabilities within that version) that they support.

DX9 cards will NOT support shader 4.0. In fact, many DX9 cards don't even support shader 3.0 (like my ATI 800XT). Therefore DX10 will only be able to run with the shader work emulated in software instead of on the card.

BTW this is how DX10 works now for developers playing with it on the Vista RC's. Its all in software since no cards exist yet. The ability to tell the DX systemware to run the DX stuff in software emulation mode has existed for a while. The performance is awful but gives developers the ability to test things on systems that are not good enough to run them.

So, either they will have to code games to work with DX9 (and shader versions 1.1 thru 3.0) or do it in DX10 only and make it unplayable for people without DX10 cards.

I don't think it is going to be easy for them to support DX9 and DX10, because they are so completely different. It will be as if they have to have release two versions of their game, one for DX9 and another for DX10. They will likely test your card on installation for DX10 support, and not give you an option if it fails the test.

The hardware standards for DX10 are very strict. They want to do away with the many (too many to count) differences that can exist now between cards that support DX9. This is to make it easier for developers to code games, so they don't have to have to try and program for every card out there that might do it differently, or worry about the various levels of floating point precision that exist between cards.

So, DX10 is quite a break from DX9 and the past. It will be fun to see what develops. I think MS will be the first, releasing a DX10 version of their Flight Sim X.
a b U Graphics card
November 15, 2006 1:51:37 AM

Quote:
How will DirectX9 cards react to dx10?

...

what will happen if I install directx10, with the dx9 card in?


The DX9 card will blush, crash, then wet itself. :oops: 

Just a guess. :twisted:
November 15, 2006 1:55:04 AM

I was talking about Dx10 cards on Vista not XP and Dx10 cards on XP is a hole other matter. But with anything new there are always bugs, thats a fact of life theres you logic. Oh heres your source www.tweakGuides.com under Windows Vista and theres a lot of info on this matter so check it out. 8)
November 15, 2006 1:57:15 AM

lol, thanx
November 15, 2006 2:16:49 AM

I never said it would, lol. I said that Dx9 cards will run on Vista, and I said that I will not be the first kid on the block to run Dx10 on Vista. Just look at the past when ever theres new software & hardware there will be bugs. 8)
November 15, 2006 2:24:04 AM

Quote:
DX9 cards will not be able to run DX10 apps at all. DX10 is wedded to shader model 4.0. Previous versions of DX could support various shader versions. All DX programmers must perform various capabilities tests on the cards now to determine what shader version (and capabilities within that version) that they support.
.....
So, either they will have to code games to work with DX9 (and shader versions 1.1 thru 3.0) or do it in DX10 only and make it unplayable for people without DX10 cards.
.......
I don't think it is going to be easy for them to support DX9 and DX10, because they are so completely different. It will be as if they have to have release two versions of their game, one for DX9 and another for DX10. They will likely test your card on installation for DX10 support, and not give you an option if it fails the test.
.


Then I guess right when vista comes out, then there must be a large number of cheaper and low end dx10 cards, since computer manufacturers are probably going to have vista comps at an affordable price?
a b U Graphics card
November 15, 2006 2:26:39 AM

Whoa dude, you're all over the map with right and wrong embeded into your post.

Quote:
DX9 cards will NOT support shader 4.0. In fact, many DX9 cards don't even support shader 3.0 (like my ATI 800XT). Therefore DX10 will only be able to run with the shader work emulated in software instead of on the card.


While DX9 cards don't support the additional DX10 requirements the games can have DX9 pathways, the biggest issues is that they need different Vista DX9 versus XP-2K DX9, which is a bit of a change due to how vista deals with the dirvers and hardware. It is unlikely that anyone will use host-based rendering to allow the DX9 hardware to run DX10 features since it would be ponderously slow, it's better to simply add another code path.

Quote:
BTW this is how DX10 works now for developers playing with it on the Vista RC's. Its all in software since no cards exist yet.


What are you talking about? 8O DX10 cards exist, in fact more than one (ATi, nV, S3), and they even sell the GF8800 right now, you may have heard of the announcement a few days ago.

Quote:
The ability to tell the DX systemware to run the DX stuff in software emulation mode has existed for a while. The performance is awful but gives developers the ability to test things on systems that are not good enough to run them.


Yeah to TEST them not to implement it in a game. There's no way they'll waste that level of effort to emulate DX10 hardware in game, it'd be a slideshow.

Quote:
So, either they will have to code games to work with DX9 (and shader versions 1.1 thru 3.0) or do it in DX10 only and make it unplayable for people without DX10 cards.


OR you can do all of the above. But actually you DON'T have to code for shader versions 1.1 through 3.0, you can target whatever you want, and while SM3.0 is called a superset, there's some of PS1.3 that didn't carry over into 1.4 and some of both that didn't carry over into 2.0 and some of 2.0 didn't carry over to 3.0. It's mostly inconsequential things, but they aren't required to be supported. They could code for DX9.0C/SM3.0 and DX10/SM4.0 only if they want or be wrdly specific like DX8.1/PS1.4 + DX10/SM4.0 is they want. It's not an all or none situation for these upcoming games.

Quote:
I don't think it is going to be easy for them to support DX9 and DX10, because they are so completely different. It will be as if they have to have release two versions of their game, one for DX9 and another for DX10.


But nowhere near as difficult as making DX and OGL versions and there's games out there tht do both. Also there is little chance that the developers will not be doing DX9+DX10 because most of the new PC hardware will be DX10 , but most of the legacy hardware is DX9, and all the new consoles are DX9.0-SM3.0. So it's likely that that will be the standard in future games, but do expect your X800 to be dropped like we saw with SplinterCell DA.

Quote:
The hardware standards for DX10 are very strict.


AS they were for every other version of DX/D3D. But just like every previous version there are required components and supported components.

Quote:
They want to do away with the many (too many to count) differences that can exist now between cards that support DX9. This is to make it easier for developers to code games, so they don't have to have to try and program for every card out there that might do it differently, or worry about the various levels of floating point precision that exist between cards.


Once again you do not know what you're talking about. DX/D3D exists already to negate that issue. Programmers code to DX standards, it's up to the hardware companies to meet those standards, and they do. That's the point of the standard.

Quote:
So, DX10 is quite a break from DX9 and the past.


Yes it is, but not for the reasons you state, but because of it's kernel level access and the design of Vista, not because the features didn't work. It's less of a change of DX than it is of the OS itself.
November 15, 2006 2:50:08 AM

Quote:


What are you talking about? 8O DX10 cards exist, in fact more than one (ATi, nV, S3), and they even sell the GF8800 right now, you may have heard of the announcement a few days ago.


(ATi, nV, S3), what adx10 cards do are those?[/quote]
a b U Graphics card
November 15, 2006 4:00:01 AM

Quote:

(ATi, nV, S3), what adx10 cards do are those?


R600, G80, S3x/D1-XD3

Again, here's early pics of the S3 for those of you new to the forums;
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=6155
(looks like it'll be a mid-2007 part, but it has 'existed' for some time)

I'm sure you've seen the G80/GF8800 already, and are aware of the R600, right? :wink:
November 15, 2006 4:46:36 AM

I don't believe that. what do they expect, you to reinstall Windows when you get a new DX10 card. Yeah right.
November 15, 2006 6:55:35 AM

Does anyone know if "Supreme Commander" is written for DX10, that game is basically gonna decide what card I get
November 15, 2006 7:57:43 AM

It was mentioned in the Tomshardware's review of Geforce 8800 cards that these new cards can render similar units in strategy games significantly more effectively than previous generation cards. They mentioned Supreme Commander as one of such games.
November 15, 2006 2:15:34 PM

Ok, I had better put aside a couple of hundred quid for the graphics card then, hoping to build next July! I am literally creaming my y fronts about S.C, Total Annihilation is my most played game ever!
November 15, 2006 3:01:33 PM

First get the newest DX10 drivers, then it will work. Just expect lower quality and speed from slow to dog-slow.
November 15, 2006 3:37:06 PM

Quote:
Does anyone know if "Supreme Commander" is written for DX10, that game is basically gonna decide what card I get


Well, I imagine it is since it is one of the games nVidia lists as recommending a G80.

http://www.nvidia.com/page/8800_games.html
November 15, 2006 5:14:37 PM

oh cool
a b U Graphics card
November 15, 2006 5:25:49 PM

Dude, I am a computer programmer who has actually written DX9.0c applications that use various vertex and pixel shader versions. I have been reading the DX10 technical papers and MSDN help files. So, I do know what I am talking about.

When a programmer writes a shader program in HLSL or assembly, they have to chose what vertex and pixel shader versions they are going to compile that program against. Then they have to code their DX application to test the graphics card to see what versions it can support.

Here is a link to the MSDN documentation that has the D3DCAPS9 structure, that has the many capabilities I am talking about:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/archive/default.asp?url=/arch...

The different vertex and pixel shader versions (1.1 - 3.0) do specify some hardware requirements, but as you can see there are many things (like support for fog, stencil buffers, buffer formats, etc.) that can differ. For example, some nVidia cards do not support integers as input, and you have to code the vertex shader to take floats and convert them.

One goal of DX10 is to get rid of that long D3DCAPS9 structure.
a b U Graphics card
November 15, 2006 5:39:05 PM

Quote:
I don't believe that. what do they expect, you to reinstall Windows when you get a new DX10 card. Yeah right.


No. DX10 can be installed. But it will not be used until you have a graphics card that supports it.

With DX, the MS DX code communicates with the graphics card's driver code. If the driver code does not support DX10, then you won't be able to use it until you install a card that does.
November 15, 2006 6:03:13 PM

Backward compatibility are the friends for all who can't upgrade fast enough to catch up with the gaming evolution. I remember playing Return to Castle Wolfenstien 6 years ago with some old ati graphics card. It's was amazing I though the graphics on that one was just realistic. The characters faces are not square anymore but are now multi-fated, may ten sided. Well, scouring through my stuff I found the game yet again and installed it. It plays well now and man I got a lot better performance and graphics running it on SLi. But today it seems graphics cards usually lags behind as game developers are putting more bling to their games, making it more demanding for a pc to run it with eye-candy quality. I'm trying to keep up but with the modern graphics cards reaching up to $800 a pop only to last 6 months to a year is not that easy anymore. And so currently I place myself just behind plays games just with enough power to play them smooth. As for DX10 cards, I'm waiting next year to upgrade and hopefully then the price is more reasonable and with more selections. I along wait for the DX10 games to come next year, but I will be playing it on my DX9 card.
November 15, 2006 6:39:28 PM

Quote:
jus buy a dx10 high end, and forget about upgrades for a long time


Tell that to the guys who bought the 1800XT's back in the days...

I'm waiting for the 8900's.
November 15, 2006 7:59:11 PM

Quote:
I don't believe that. what do they expect, you to reinstall Windows when you get a new DX10 card. Yeah right.


"I think you a very confused." "I was talking about Dx9 & Dx10 on VISTA NOT XP." You can use a Dx10 card on XP without reinstalling XP all over. I never said you have to reinstall XP if your using Dx10 card, I don't know where you got that from. This topic is " HOW WILL DX9 CARDS REACT TO DX10= VISTA. Remember theres DX10 Videocards and then theres DX10 software= WINDOWS VISTA. 8)
a b U Graphics card
November 15, 2006 8:01:25 PM

Quote:
Dude, I am a computer programmer who has actually written DX9.0c applications that use various vertex and pixel shader versions. I have been reading the DX10 technical papers and MSDN help files. So, I do know what I am talking about.


Maybe, but you certainly don't know how to turn that knowledge into a concise factual post, you wrote alot of stuff that's wrong or misleading. Or can you post a link to MSDN that supports your actual statements, not the truism of what constitutes D3D?

Quote:
When a programmer writes a shader program in HLSL or assembly, they have to chose what vertex and pixel shader versions they are going to compile that program against. Then they have to code their DX application to test the graphics card to see what versions it can support.


You miss my point, and you had difficulty expressing yours obviously. It's possible for someone to go DX10 only, but not likely for a while. So until that point developers will code for both, and it's not as hard as you say with tools like CgFX you can do lots of common work automatically. It's still more work, but that's what will happen for the near future until the DX10 hardware reaches critical mass, they will need to code DX9.0L at least to let games function under VISTA with what constitutes the majority of hardware out there now and for the next year+.

The level of support will be dictated by the level of effort involved and the sales figures derived by that base. But you oversell the level of effort required.

Quote:
Here is a link to the MSDN documentation that has the D3DCAPS9 structure, that has the many capabilities I am talking about...


That doesn't support what you're saying, just defines the caps, but they still don't have to program for every card out ther like you say, they pick a level of support and stick with it. The point of D3D is to simplify that, where they only have to worry about the DX level (DX9.0C PS2.0B vs PS3.0), not "program for every card out there" like you said.

Quote:
The different vertex and pixel shader versions (1.1 - 3.0) do specify some hardware requirements,


Yeah, so what? you said they would have to include 1.1 trough 3.0, and in fact they DON'T have to include 1.1 to 3.0, just the version(s) they wish to support in the style they wish to support, which may or may not have support for all the subsets. If they code for PS3.0 it doesn't have to include PS1.1 to 2.0 beyond what is explicitly covered by PS3.0.
a b U Graphics card
November 15, 2006 8:47:29 PM

LOL! I feel like I am trying to debate with a politician here! :wink:

UNCLE!