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Advanced HELP !!!!!!

Last response: in Systems
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November 18, 2006 5:15:26 PM

ok ,,,, first of all ,,, take a look at this without thinking about the price tag:

System Spec:-

MoBo ................. Asus P5N32-SLi-SE Deluxe
Processor............ Intel E6700 Core2Duo 2.67 GHz
RAM.................... Corsair TwinX 2GB DDR2 6400
PSU..................... TAGAN Dual Engine TG600 (600W)
Graphics.............. 2 x 512mb EVGA GeForce 7900 GTX
HDD.................... Western Digital SATA2 500GB
Optics.................. 2 x SATA DVDRW +/-

ok so generally put "Not the best, but still a super-system"

or at least it would be if i could get it on (reliably), The problem being that when i press the power switch it turns itself off...... and i mean as soon as it comes on it goes off, no beeps, no flashing, nothing, and it even does this if i take one of the graphics cards out so its not the SLi config.

I am at the end of my tether with this system ive had it on twice, the first time i got it running, I installed windows, multiple reboots, even power off and back on without a problem, come back to it the morning after and it wouldnt start again. I tried in vein replacing the PSU and flashing the bios to the latest version. Againt it started and I thought it was sorted, come back to it this morning and it is again refusing to switch on.

ok, now for the request, I am looking for someone with an answer, not someone telling me to strip the system and run it bare, or telling me to try this and try that, ive tried all "first step" resolutions and none of them make any difference at all.

So yeah, any and all advice, help or answers will be gladly accepted.

HEEEEEEEEELP

Gary :o )

More about : advanced

November 18, 2006 6:03:34 PM

because this seems pretty strange to me the only way i can is to go from the start. i know you've done this but go 1 stick of ram 1 vid card and no drives. check post. if no post then boot with no ram to see if you get any error beeps. no beeps = bad mb or processor. beep = try the other stick of ram. still no post check the power to you vid card if it's using a built in pcie power connector try second if available or use an adapter. still no post and no errors the only other suggestion i could would be to tear it down and start from scratch making sure nothing is grounding out. best luck and let us know how it goes
November 18, 2006 6:11:36 PM

ummm OK ,,, to clarify

I could (and have) unplugged everything from the MOBO as a "basic test" and the same thing happens.

unless it boots up ,,, in which case it runs with EVERYTHING connected until the next morning. for it to work at all, that would say there are no conflicts or software issues, and certainly no shorts, when and IF IT starts, it works perfectly until the next morning, or until the next time its been turned off for a while.

ok hope that clears up
Related resources
November 18, 2006 6:29:47 PM

are you using a surge suppressor or ups? it kind of sounds like a power problem
November 18, 2006 6:39:59 PM

Quote:
are you using a surge suppressor or ups? it kind of sounds like a power problem


No, i removed the surge supp when this problem started to remove it from the equation. As stated I replaced the PSU as I came to the same conclusion that you have

the things i dont know are these

1. is it possibly some kind of low temperature issue (either on the mobo or psu)

2. is there anything else held in a Tagan PSU that can shut off the system before engaging the bios

as i have stated ,,, once the system has booted and run for a while there are no problems at all, as an example, the PSU on some dell machines have a temperature sensor built in them that causes this kind of problem if the computer has been sat in a cold van / warehouse before trying to boot. Is this so with Tagan PSU's

some thoughts

Thanx
November 18, 2006 6:45:41 PM

The problem you're having is typical of an intermittent component short, resident on one of your boards or peripherals, occuring on warm reststart, due to thermal breakdown during inrush current, which creates a ground fault, thereby forcing the power supply into a crowbar condition.

Troubleshooting and isolating this type of problem can be very difficult, and unfortunately involves removal and meticulous inspection of hardware. Since you've made it clear that you don't wish to strip your system, then I won't presume to suggest such a course of action. However, if disassembly is not an option, then I can't help you.
November 18, 2006 7:07:53 PM

Looks, sounds, smells like a mobo prob.
November 18, 2006 7:09:07 PM

making sure i have this right it only happens if the comp been off for an extended period. when it's running you can turn off and right back on with no problems. i t maybe moisture instead of temperature although i can't find any in depth specs from the tagan website . the only way i can think to test either moisture or low temperature would be 2 or 3 min with a hair dryer before you first turn it on. this is a solid 8.5 on my wtf scale
November 18, 2006 7:24:50 PM

I understand completely. Electronics components can exhibit some very parculiar thermal behavior, causing cold start problems as well as warm. I've been in your position and I can empathise with your dilema. There's no easy way to isolate it.
November 18, 2006 7:31:34 PM

it is not that i am unwilling to strip the machine down yet again, if i thought there was something i could look at and diagnose myself i would do it, the puter is already half stripped as it is. The problem with stripping is that i wouldn't know what i am looking for even if i took the MOBO out. I do not have the knowledge, tools or details to be able to diagnose a PCB.

the problem is not on "warm start", the problem is on "cold-start" after it has been left overnight switched off

which is why i am stuck right now with £2000.00 ($3000.00) worth of components that the reseller will not look at, they take it in and test it until they get it working, ie. warm it up, then they give it back to me saying "bull bull bull it works now".

so i take it home and use it for the rest of the day and then the next day its non-bootable again. If i knew what to look for i would take it apart yet again, at the end of the day i have to take it apart anyway at some stage to box it all back up. but my experience of PCB's is that your average "joe bloggs" or "L1_Cupid" cannot look at them and see anything out of the normal.

and being as this happens with just the MOBO and CPU it can only be a problem with MOBO, CPU or PSU (just to rule out any of the GPU or SB boards, opticals or HDD's or RAM, it can only be on of the core 3 components
November 18, 2006 7:41:19 PM

It could be a problem with the cooling... The computer will power itself off after power on if it does not detect a cooling system running a certain RPM. Have you checked the thermal paste and contacts on the power to the cooling fan?
November 18, 2006 7:49:28 PM

How close in general design is your board to the A8N32-SLI Deluxe?, other than the socket and chipset type of course.
November 18, 2006 7:58:12 PM

it does not wait to see if a fan is running ,,, it just powers off.

as for the "closeness" to the other board, i have no idea. i do know however that this was not the original MOBO i ordered it is a slightly "lesser" model of it

I originally ordered the "premium" version of this product but it was out of stock so i had to choose otherwise so i chose the closest match.

hope this helps
November 18, 2006 8:18:08 PM

If the problem is consistent regardless of which PSU is connected to the mobo, then considering all that you've done so far, I agree with mousemonkey that the symptoms point to the mobo.
November 18, 2006 8:19:43 PM

Quote:
Looks, sounds, smells like a mobo prob.


I agree.

The mobo is more than likely the cause. PSU would be my first guess but if its been replaced then it probably the board.

Also try removing and reinserting the RAM and cpu, if it dosn't change then its time to RMA the mobo.
November 18, 2006 8:25:14 PM

ive heard of a lot of similar stories of computers just switching off.

the problem being the bios not reading the rams's SPD values correctly and also not supplying the correct voltage to the ram causing instability that you describe.

get into your bios and make sure the timngs are correct for yout ram and also the correct voltage is being supplied to the ram modules.

try booting with only 1 stick aswell to start with

good luck
November 18, 2006 8:25:49 PM

I'm just wondering if you have the 'Intel version' of the A8N32-SLI Deluxe because if you do then I would suggest you might want to think about RMA'ing it, there has been too much flak aimed at Asus over the failure rate of its recent offerings, some of which has been fired by some usually easy going types. Do you have access to another motherboard you could use for testing?
November 18, 2006 8:26:07 PM

Quote:
The problem you're having is typical of an intermittent component short, resident on one of your boards or peripherals, occuring on warm reststart, due to thermal breakdown during inrush current, which creates a ground fault, thereby forcing the power supply into a crowbar condition.

Troubleshooting and isolating this type of problem can be very difficult, and unfortunately involves removal and meticulous inspection of hardware. Since you've made it clear that you don't wish to strip your system, then I won't presume to suggest such a course of action. However, if disassembly is not an option, then I can't help you.


Something to consider there.

low temps will not in anyway harm a computer or prevent it from doing anything other then work faster and have a longer life.

personaly i would strip the whole thing and plug the psu into the mobo with no cpu and no ram in it and short power switch pins on the mobo. on my motherboards it still powers up but beeps alot ;)  then add one piece at a time while mobo is out of the case prefferably not on something that will short it.

Now i would do this at the point in which its not turning on again obviously. Have you tried using another brand of psu also?

Sorry to say when it comes to diagnostics and computers not wanting to do something means not wanting to figure out the problem.

Also if you have another computer available or a friend whilling to help i would start testing your componants on other machines.
November 18, 2006 9:24:33 PM

Yes!
Wallis has it, this is what I was thinking too.
If you are just very marginal on the 1.8V memory thing, you could have these problems. The memory doesn't like 1.8V - it likes 2.0V much better!
Problems occur when you get memory like mine, specified 1.9-2.0V and runs best at 2.2V, and the BIOS is set to give it only ~1.8V.
Some mobos will not even give over 2.0V! Which can be quite a shock to some folks whose memory requires it...
Anyway, you should be okay with that Asus mobo. Set the FSB:memory ratio 1:1, timings all Auto/SPD, and lotsa memory voltage, at least 2.0V (My ABit gives 2.0V on 'default' heheh... and goes up to 2.4-2.5V if I need it, LoL)
General BIOS setup will be important here too - so let's get this beautiful rig running solid!
Regards
November 18, 2006 9:43:20 PM

As he described the nature of his problem, it's occurs only on cold startup. Undervolted CPU's, memory, and most electronic components will typically perform a cold startup, but as temperature rises, so does resistance, thereby resulting in random crashes. When adequate voltage is applied relative to resistance, stability is achieved.

Occasionally however, wierd science predominates, and unexplainable behaviors occur. Maybe it's possesed?
November 18, 2006 10:18:40 PM

Im thinking there is a cold solder point on the mobo and when it warms up heat expands the point causing it to touch and make better contact but then it cools off it makes less contact ? I know its an odd thoery lol hmmmm kinda hard to check for too :( 
November 18, 2006 10:22:46 PM

That's an excellent observation, and offers a very reasonable explanation.
November 18, 2006 10:26:28 PM

I wouldnt place any bets on it though (but it does sound reasonably sane lol) Intermitent problems like this are the worst :(  it could be the mobo, it could be the CPU, It could be something else ! *pulls out some hair* lol

Edit: Thank god its not me... but I have had things like this happen to me :( 

On a thought maybe a BIOS update on the mobo would help ? I didnt see if anyone else sugested it.
November 18, 2006 11:04:01 PM

wow ,,, thats a reply of explosions

as for the RAM voltage theory, the system has booted and run (or more like it Flies) so i guess that is kinda out (maybe something to look at when i do get it running tho)

Ive only tried Tagan PSU's that i have tested on a.n. other system and it worked perfectly (both of the psu's i have tried in this system)

as for other misc theories about plug this or not that, this error occurs when the system is cold. and only resolved when it gets warm. NO MATTER what you plug or unplug. I currently have the PSU, MOBO, CPU and NOTHING else plugged in, it does the exact same thing. poweron , power off within 1 second. the bios does not even get time to turn on, let alone show anything or beep. the system is powering off after 1 second.

the cold (dry) soldered joint theory is more along the lines of what i'm thinking warm board = better connections = run perfect until ya let it go cold.

i wish i had another MOBO (or the money to throw away) but i dont and unless i can get the supplier to admit there is some kind of fault with the hardware (they take it and play with it till warm / working then say theres nothing wrong with it) then i cannot get another MOBO out of them

anyway, i was hoping for a magic cure, some little known conflict or jumper setting. This just confirms my worst case scenario. i do not know anyone with another SLI compatible Intel MOBO to test with (not that anyone in their right mind would let you strip an expensive system to test dodgy bits) so im stuck with "buy a new card to test with" which i cannot afford to do. so my £2000.00 (approx) heap of components will have to stay that way at least until i can scrape some cash up for a new MOBO and just hope and pray that it is the cause.

thanx for all the help and advice

doh

Gary :o )
November 19, 2006 12:29:42 AM

I have to stop replying to posts where the op posts i dont want to do this or the first few posts get a responce of no that cant be it or this cant be it.

The ops in these cases only seem to want to hear easy to do stuff and already (if you listen to the way they talk) have it all figured out already. im out later.

Anyways the warmer motherboard isnt a more optimum working condition if you have a broken solder point and the heat making it expand is making better contact. Now if that is true then when it cools it releases contact meaning you have a bad motherboard. Might want to try a different brand of psu on your system. YOUR SYSTEM being the keywords. trying your psu on another system to see if it works under the conditions you will be using it at isnt a real test. the only thing that is really testing is if its blown or not. unless he has the exact same setup as your system its not going to say much other then its not blown.

take everything off the board the cpu and ram to. strip it OUT of the case and put it on a none conductive surface and power it up from there. then start putting it in one piece at a time litteraly. and like i said before try putting your cpu, ram and video card on another computer just to see if the computer will operate. Even if you have to goto a computer store and ask if they will slip it in a system.

you also realise you can put in each video card at a time into another board to see if they are both operating correctly. the funy thing is this could vary well be a PSU problem still. Only reason i say that is if it is the power supply in a power feeding sense replacing it with the exact same psu will only duplicate it but it seems more likely you have another bad componant.

BTW i have stripped my computer many times for friends to test thier dodgy componants ;) 
November 19, 2006 3:20:26 AM

Quote:
as for the RAM voltage theory, the system has booted and run (or more like it Flies) so i guess that is kinda out

Huh?
Quote:
maybe something to look at when i do get it running tho

Yes - you should.
Rule that out. Maybe you're set to 1.8V - wouldn't you be happy if everything just magically works now?
Anyway, maybe the guys are right and something is NFG but you gotta be on top of your memory and BIOS settings, rule out any problems there.
L8R
November 19, 2006 3:28:20 AM

Quote:
as for the RAM voltage theory, the system has booted and run (or more like it Flies) so i guess that is kinda out

Huh?
Quote:
maybe something to look at when i do get it running tho

Yes - you should.
Rule that out. Maybe you're set to 1.8V - wouldn't you be happy if everything just magically works now?
Anyway, maybe the guys are right and something is NFG but you gotta be on top of your memory and BIOS settings, rule out any problems there.
L8R

Would be a good idea to do everything aka trouble shooting ;)  would be nice if it was that simple though.

btw im with you on the huh part i have no idea wth he said.
November 19, 2006 5:53:47 AM

If he could get to the bios...........^^^^^ lol
November 19, 2006 9:50:18 AM

yeah, try reading the thread before posting :o p

this system, with its current bios settings, and configuration, HAS BOOTED AND RUN FOR HOURS, but the problem RE-OCCURS when i let it cool down

so im saying to rule out bios settings, and ram voltage, BECAUSE IT HAS BOOTED AND WORKED ON 2 OCCASIONS

when it is displaying the fault i cannot access the bios, or anything else, because it switches itself off after "half a second" <<<< that isnt even enuf time for the bios to initialise.

I did not title this thread "advanced HELP !!!!!" because i need people to suggest documented and easy settings in the bios, if the problem was that simple i would have sorted it by now and not be posting on here.

there have been some really useful comments from people who have actually read the thread before posting, i just wish everyone would do the same,

The first time i returned the power supply to the supplier (being as i buy so much from them) i went into the config room with them and we plugged the power supply onto numerous systems of similar specs, and it displayed no faults on any of the other systems <<<----- is why i can pretty safely rule out the power supply.

NOW being as i have done a reverse strip + build on this machine,, taken everything off, and put everything on 1 by 1, and NOTHING makes a difference until it gets warm, then it works perfectly until it cools down.

so basically the only suggested theory that fits in is a faulty motherboard

thanx :D 
November 19, 2006 2:27:33 PM

Quote:

I did not title this thread "advanced HELP !!!!!" because i need people to suggest documented and easy settings in the bios, if the problem was that simple i would have sorted it by now and not be posting on here.


Considering how unwhilling you are to consider some peoples suggestions i have no idea why you even posted here at all since your so close minded with anyones ideas that conflict with yours.

You also didnt post here becuase you were able to figure it out at all. funny thing is typicaly something like this and 90% of other problems is a easy over looked setting jumper or update.

You are compleatly closed to the fact simply because you dont believe it to be easy because you were unable to figure it out. just for refference there is nothing advanced about your problem. Its a simple failure in your system somewhere with a simple awnser which could be figured out by some simple trial and error reasoning. trying everything no matter how much it doesnt seem like the problem is how most computers get fixed.

being as close minded as you are being is how threads of how come my computer doesnt work keep going so long.

Now i would make another suggestion but it seems you are unwhilling to use any of them unless it fits your thoughts of whats wrong. Get a new motherboard i hope it works because after this post i dont even see why anyone is going to try and help you at all. But im sure someone will not care.
November 19, 2006 3:21:28 PM

Excuse me,

For your information i am not narrow minded or closed minded about anything, the fact that i "close" other people suggestions off are because

1. i have already tried what they are suggesting
2. i cannot try what they are suggesting due to reasons already mentioned in thread

i have tried what people have suggested, i cannot try "playing with the bios" because the computer does not stay on long enuf to get into the bios, if anyone else has something else to try then be my guest with your suggestions, i will try anything that i havent already tried as long as it is physically possible for me to try it.

I dont think it is unreasonable to ask people to read the entire thread to see 1. the exact problem and 2. resolutions that i have already tried, before posting duplicate or impossible suggestions.

i dont think that makes me closed-minded or ungrateful of "usefull" advice, and yes, i did ask for advanced help, because, yes, i have already tried the basic stuff, there is no need to slate me just because i'm running this issue through logically, for my own thought process. This motherboard should be able to handle everything that is plugged onto it, as the computer will not run reliably then it is the most logical answer that the motherboard is faulty in some capacity (although not totally).

Thanx for all the help and advice to all those who gave it.

cyall

Gary
November 19, 2006 8:38:46 PM

only thing i can say. computer store.
November 19, 2006 9:36:19 PM

Did you throw some heat to it?Hair dryer =cheap // mobo= $$$ and wait.
If it were me, manufactuer would play hell tellin me it was not their fault if
X degrees=no go but Y degrees ran without hitch. What you got to lose brother 10min.
November 20, 2006 7:22:35 AM

ok now the weekend is over i can do some testing after work today. i used a hairdryer on it last night for a few seconds and it worked, but i cannot say for sure that it was the hair dryer effect (coz the fiancee has had the fire on all day in that room) and it started first time

today i have moved the puter into a cold room, when i get back from work tonight i try the switch, then hair dryer, then try again etc etc etc, and if the "heat" theory is right, then i have something proveable with the retailer (not to mention i want a better MOBO now so i would have to pay the extra anyway so they will like that lol.

(Looking at the evga nforce 6 , 680i )

http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProdu...

if anyone knows about this board some comments would be really good. I know the board supports quad-core CPU but i dont know if it supports Quad-SLI ???

OH yeah and if there are any serious tech-heads out there im looking (being as i have to spend extra money on this anyway) im looking at replacing the dual Nvidia 9700GTX GPU's for a single Nvidia 8800GTX <<< good idea or bad ???

cyall when i get back from work

BYEEE
November 21, 2006 12:32:22 AM

Im glad the heat theory is seeming to pan-out how ever i have some more advise sir.Tone is everything many people,some you may view inferior to yourself,have tried to give you advise at their expense.May I suggest even when you KNOW that someones theory,no matter how many times it has failed you or how irrelevant you may feel it is, don't act like it is an inconvince to you.You sir make folks think your some wanna-be know it all.However you may be a super guy just unable to talk to someone as if they may be a decent,possiblly intellegent, human.I see it as though you were lucky to get any decent post.May have had some,
Quote:
folks that READ THE ENTIRE POST


and said "this guy is a rectum.NAH I'll just pass".
mama's words:
IF YOU AINT GOT NOTHIN NICE TO SAY KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.

dad's words:
TIS BETTER TO BE THOUGHT A FOOL THAN TO OPEN ONES MOUTH AND REMOVE ALL DOUBT.
and good luck :D 
November 21, 2006 1:28:17 AM

The evga 680i is a great buy! I just got this myself actually and you'll love the flexibility offered in overclocking. It also does support Quad Intel processors but will not support Quad SLI. It has 2 full 16x PCI express ports for dual SLI instead of just 2 8x PCI slots.

Also as benchmark tests will prove, just one 8800 GTX is more powerful than two 9700 GTX's so going with the 8800 is definently the better buy.
November 21, 2006 6:49:03 AM

Quote:
Im glad the heat theory is seeming to pan-out how ever i have some more advise sir.Tone is everything many people,some you may view inferior to yourself,have tried to give you advise at their expense.May I suggest even when you KNOW that someones theory,no matter how many times it has failed you or how irrelevant you may feel it is, don't act like it is an inconvince to you.You sir make folks think your some wanna-be know it all.However you may be a super guy just unable to talk to someone as if they may be a decent,possiblly intellegent, human.I see it as though you were lucky to get any decent post.May have had some,
folks that READ THE ENTIRE POST


and said "this guy is a rectum.NAH I'll just pass".
mama's words:
IF YOU AINT GOT NOTHIN NICE TO SAY KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.

dad's words:
TIS BETTER TO BE THOUGHT A FOOL THAN TO OPEN ONES MOUTH AND REMOVE ALL DOUBT.
and good luck :D 

burrrnnnnnn lol
!