Damn POS Berkeley

I say send the Marines in.

I say let them have their say.

They do have a right to protest, however the City does not have the right to tell a federal office to vacate the premises. That is what this group wants. The recruiters office is there for the people who want to join and no one has the right to say they should or shouldn't sign up.

I would much rather have my tax $$ go to support our troops then to pay for a fat soccer mom or hippie to sit around protesting against a recruiting center.

I have family and friends who have served and continue to serve (none of whom have died while deployed) and i would fully support my sons decisions if they ever decide to enlist.

Unlike many Americans, I am not a fan of JFK. Were JFK to live in this day and age, and be held accountable by today’s standards, he would have been Court Marshaled and sent to Leavenworth for his actions as a Naval Officer, not lauded as a hero, and that I can guarantee. But he did have his good moments. On of them was the famous "...We must agree to disagree...". In short, everyone is entitled to their opinion and no one is entitled to force their opinion on anyone else

That said, some things to consider:
An opinion is an opinion, and everyone is entitled.
Expressing an opinion is not direct action
Trying to force a recruiter station out of an area is not an opinion. It is an action.
Making innuendo “to impede, passively or actively”, is not an opinion, it is an action.
The vast majority of those 'children' to whom you are referring are in fact not children, but over 18, legally adults in the US and free to make their own decisions----without their parents interference
A recruiter station is no different than a personnel department at a corporation. Why should it be treated differently? Are those poor, misunderstood, opinionated people demanding that corporations do not send corporate recruiters to Berkeley? I dont think so.


Sorry, but I have to do this: Regardless of whether or not the US came late, or for the wrong reasons, were the US (or Scottish) deaths in WW II "needless"?

Please, explain to me, what precisely is your areas of expertise that qualifies you to proclaim judgment that any current deaths are "needless".

Well, I was open minded until I saw the pic on the CNN website of the so called Code Pink group and that in itself just points to people with f-all else to do.

There's a right to opinion, but for peet sake look the part when doing so so as to be taken semi seriously.

[/I hate focking hippies]

Well, those tarts need a man in their life with military background or a major cut form the social grant paid prozac.

And before someone makes reference to my hippie post and the fact that I support the humane society:
I have a moral believe over the way animals are slaughtered and the extent to what animals, but not the way terrorists or hippies are.

Hippie being someone not actually contributing to a country's economy or in the society in general. Hence my believe in public service which embraces the army/marines whom provide a fundamental pillar in a countries security.

Well, just in case someone missed it, why don't you tell us how you feel about hippies?

turpit, i couldn't really give a damn about most things and although WWII is one of them, i do know a little bit about it and enough to know that comparing what is going on in the world and especially afghanistan and iraq with the global and desperate struglle for survival that was WWII is just ludicrous.

you also forget that the sides are switched. the "allies" are not defending anything only attacking and eroding. WWII is a great example to use in so many situations due to the scope of what it involved but this is not one of them, you knew it to be so when you typed it so why do it.

I see alot of young people and i know that whilst in the eyes of the law and society they are viewed as adults many are very much children and are wholly unprepared for what is expected, i am 100% and i mean 100% certain that if you asked the majority of the soldiers of WWII who were about that age halfway through the time in the war if they would like to have volunteered for the army they would have said no.

really, now. let these people have their say.

couldn't they serve a purpose as test subjects for experimental drugs or is that students work?

GMAMFB. They are allowed their say. They may be annoying in the way they do it, but our government does not listen to requests anymore.

Also, the way these recruiters go about this stuff is shameful. They do not go up to the rich kids door and ask them if tehy woul dlike to serve their country, they go into poor neighborhoods and scam kids into thinking they will be some macho war-hero vigilante and get money for their family and colelge and all that.

They do what works, and which is also quite shameful. (Quickest buck they could get).

Also, the snapshot Republican senators threatening funding cuts are typical. When protests are bandied, threats are issued. If the funding is cut, do they have to pay federal taxes?


One final thing. Until we go into this thing whole hog, draft and all, into a middle eastern Cruisade, don't EVER compare it to WWII. Theer are enough similarities to Vietnam to make the comparison, but comparing it to a war that claimed MILLIONS FROM EACH COUNTRY involved, both civilian AND military, comparing our BS in Iraq is unfair.

Until we have to start saving tin cans and nylons to make war goods, until we ship out our own youth against their will, until this farce genuinely threatens the mainland or our allies on a united front, calling this extended occupation and "Gift from god" to all the military contractiors out there anything more than it is is a joke.

Occam's razor?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

**Awards Riser Gold Trophy**
Good job sir, good job...

Hey Mugz way to be a statistic.. hehehe

Generally, Most Alabamian Men Fancy Buttfcuking.[/hello phucky]

Gone MILFing with AV's Mother's Fukk Budget

Perspective.
There are some big lessons to be learned from WWII as well as other conflicts throughout history. You say the allies are not defending anything, that what’s going on in afghanistan and iraq aren’t a struggle for survival. Arent they? If not, then why not?
Because this is not the classic war scenario of one country invading another?
Because there aren’t ‘wolf packs’ of submarines destroying/cutting off shipping?
Because there aren’t formations of enemy tanks blitzkrieging across Europe or North America?
Because there aren’t Stukas, V1s and buzz bombs falling from the sky?
Because the ‘war’ hasnt reached out and touched you in a personal way yet?
Because now, our enemies have wised up and realized:
-it is a losing proposition to fight a one vs NATO or UN battle?
-that a few million dollars worth of RPGs, MANPADs and small arms may bring down a helo or 2, a few tanks or maybe kill, at best, a couple thousand soldiers, but beyond a minor moral victory, wont accomplish anything other than really pissing people off?
-just as the germans ignored WWI stratedgies and bypassed hardend defensive positions rather than engaging them, that they can skip around the military defenses of NATO
-the easiest targets are also the ones that actually hurt....the soft targets....the civilian population centers...you know…the ones that dont shoot back, that wait to be protected rather than protecting themselves?

Dont kid yourself, we are fighting a defensive war. The tactics now employed by terrorists have been employed for centuries...even by the US during both the revolutionary and civil wars. Even by the Scotts during both the first and second wars of Scottish Independence…the real wars, not that rape of history performed by Mel Gibson.. IRA anyone? Why is it the IRA were terrorists, but the Scotts were Freedom Fighters? Because one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, and history is written by the victor. The so called differences between WWII and the war on terror are purely cosmetic. Merely because its not the classic European land battle, does not mean it is not defensive. Youre a Scottsman....need I say Lockerbie? What border were the terrorists defending from that 747 when they blew it up? Should we just let these people blow up whatever they want because we are not executing the classic defense of French Soil? (The irony it THAT blows my mind) Perhaps we should continue surrendering our freedom, a little bit at a time, until we have none left. After all, its not our soil these people are after, so its not the same, right?

WWII was a war of ideologies. The war now is one of ideologies as well. The difference now isnt a line on a map, or some hill or field. The differences are just the physical implementation of classic guerilla tactics, and the psychological tactics. Because now, through the wonders of media, we get to see the enemy close up, personal and live. And when we look, (and we do look), what do we see? A craven, hateful group that wants control over us? No, we see an injured child, in a field of rubble, holding a torn doll, because that’s what the media shows us. Then they show us an unassuming man or woman, maybe dressed in doctors scrubs, who asks “why?????…..we just want to live in peace. You are evil because you are killing us for oil…we have nothing against you.” But what the media doesn’t show, is that the “war for oil” never existed. It was a machination…a phsycological tactic devised to polarize groups of voters by playing on their emotions, developed by the USs own politicians, and latched onto by not just by every sucker who bought off on it, but by the enemy as well. And its worked. Spectacularly. Why? 3 reasons:
First; Weve already seen the craven hateful groups….weve become desensitized and they no longer hold our interest…in short they niether sell advertising time, nor motivate voters as they once used to.
Second; because of who the media are, not a bunch of Rhodes scholars, but a bunch of people who are only fit to be salesmen…professional liars….and liars who want their ounce of influence. The days of Edward R Murrow and Walter Cronkite are long gone. Now we have (or had) Sam Donaldson subtly pitching his skew, Robin Mead and Daryn Kagan…who cares what they say, just as long as they look fine saying it, and the ‘other’ bunch…Bill Mahr, Rush Limbaugh, Colbert, O’Rielly….all those goombas that people take as ‘jounalists’. People with opinions to sell, and facts will to be fitted only when they support those opinions.
Third: Most important. Because most people are sheep…easily lead, if you know how to lead them. What story to tell them, what pictures to show and which to hide, which emotions to play on, how and when to empathize.

Lets say all that stuff is just a load of bollux if for no other reason than this war is not taking place on an allies soil. Not protecting a line on a map, so cant possibly be a defensive war like WWII. Right?
Ever hear the old adage: “The best defense is a good offense”? i.e. don’t give the enemy the opportunity to strike you where you live, strike him where he lives. You ask anyone whos ever served a day in the military...not the back line sittin’, coffee swilling, paper pushin mofos…but the line apes. The ones actually in the field, on the boats, or in the air getting shot at. Every single one will tell you the same thing…(after the sleep in thier own bed, fukc their own wivfe jokes) that its better to fight on the other guy’s property than your own.

But why are we at war in the first place?

Oil.

NOT!

There are still people crying ‘war for oil’, mostly clinging to the Food For Oil BS, but with commercial demand from China, India, Europe and the US all driving oil prices up to and over $100 (USD) a barrel, that little theory is pretty much dying the death it deserves.
But, if you are one of those who still insists that this is a war for oil, then you can answer this question for me: Where is all that oil? Tell me bro, please, because I wants me some o that free oil I heard we dun stole.

The 2 real reasons?
Ideology and survival.


Contrary to popular belief the US didnt instigate this ‘Gihad’. Gihad is preordained, and its hitting everyone from the US through the UK to Japan. These people arent fighting to defend themselves and aren’t going to just 'go away' if we leave the middle east. We did leave. We allied with them, gave them some ‘guns’ and helped them to drive out the invaders. And then we left. And, when a new set of invaders came, we came back to help again. We drove those invaders out and then…………..we left. Again. We helped. Then left. But helping these people didn’t help us. Leaving them alone didn’t help us. Why? Because we are the infidels and it’s their god given right to rule the planet, as they see fit, according to their ideology. Their ideology is not ours. They don’t believe in equality. They believe in divine rule and a fukced up aberration of a caste/fuedal system. They don’t believe in human rights. They believe in cause and effect…torture produces information and prisoners produce reduced resourses through consumption. In the western ‘civilized’ world, rumors of torture produce documentaries, congressional investigations and commercial air time sales. In their world, it produces heros. But ideology is only half the story.


Ask your self some questions. If this is a war for oil, why are oil prices so high? If this is a war for oil, why is OPEC cutting production to force prices higher? Most importantly, if the US/Europe is stealing the oil, where is it and where are the profits from that oil going?

Well, here’s where the profits are going:





















[img] http://www.fresh99.com/images/islands/dubai_123456.jpg [/img]

Id be willing to bet real money that you’ve heard of these islands…you know, the ones designed by the germans and being built by the dutch for the Saudis. Well, theres your oil and oil profits….in the Med/middle east. Right where the oil came from.


Consider this. As you know, much of the population in the middle east lives hand to mouth…the tip of Maslows triangle, literally fighting for survival. Yet there exists in the middle east enough money to build these ridiculously opulent islands, mega malls, palaces of gold and the like. Why isn’t this money being spent on fulfilling the needs of all those needy? Why isn’t it being spent on desalinization plants? Why is the dredging/soil relocation being wasted on cresent and palm shaped islands rather than creating fields for farming? Why are they building malls in Dubai instead of cattle/sheep/llama ranches. Why are the vast numbers of needy not being taken care of with all that oil money?

Well that’s pretty easy. A Fuedal society, a little interpretation and the 'evil' western world.
Sam Kinison said it best. We have deserts in America, we just don live in them.
These people live day to day on the edge of survival, yet they know that in the world there exists plenty. But not for them. They are the have-nots. But why cant they have some of the ‘plenty’? Who is starving them? The US? Scotland? No, Its the oil barons starving the people in the middle east. It’s the feudal system starving them. The system that places the importance of these peoples survival beneath the importance of some sheiks 24 ct gold toilet. And how convienient for those oil barons that they have an ideologically pre defined scape goat. The West. The US. The evil US. The Infidels. Its our fault. All our fault, just as are the rest of the worlds problems. Kill the Infidels and Allah will reward you with ‘plenty’. Do nothing and starve. Don’t attack the fuedal system, don’t take power from the oil rich Barons. Its not they’re fault ..Allah has ordained them to rule. They dont have the power to end the need. The West has stolen that power. It’s the US, the ‘infidels’ preventing the barons from saving the needy. Go after the infidels,

Now of course, Islam, like all religions, is subject to interpretation, and there are those who choose to interpret it peacefully, but just like Christian Europe did during the Crusades and witch hunts, there are those who choose to interpret Islam a bit more violently, and to take violent action in the name of Allah. All the better if the real criminals (OPEC) can direct that violence away from themselves by interpreting that religion in such a fashion as to create hatred and manufacture culpability elsewhere.

And so, these sheep attack us, and we are defending ourselves, but not against some little one balled wuss bag who drove into the middle of France waving his guns, thumbing his nose and wearing an easy to distinguish/differentiate grey uniform. He was easy, because for all his acclaimed intelligence, he was really just a petty, stupid, little stupid putz who allowed himself to be ruled by emotion. Hitler would have lost the war, one way or another, against the combined manufacturing capacity of the allies. But had he not been such a putz, the win would have been unimaginably more costly for the allies. We got off light and I don’t think many people know just how light we really got off. Regardless, the war is the same. Fanatic Ideology driven by hunger. You know what the real difference is? These folks are smarter than Hitler.

They have decentralized command. Many people calling the shots rather than one, so even if they do have a putz like Hitler, they have others who aren’t putz’s to cover the difference.

Unlike Hitler, they are not fighting our manufacturing capacity….they wouldn’t dare since it is our own weapons they use against us.

Unlike Hitler , they are not fighting our armies on massive battle fields/fronts/theatres. They could never win that kind of battle and they damn well realize that.

They are not fighting our technology. Just like our weapons, they cant beat it, and that battle would be just as counterproductive. That very same technology we rely on is just as effective a weapon for them, against us….when used properly.

And,they are not fighting by our rules. Just as both the US and Scotland used the ‘rules’ of civilized battle against the Brits in their wars for independence (by correctly counting on the Brits to adhere to them), so to do these people use our ‘rules’ of war against us. But all that’s not quite enough, not in this day and age when everyone already knows those tricks. They need more. And they are smart enough to know it, and that extra little tactic which they are using is, itself, another very old tactic…..divide and conquer. And our politicians and media handed that to them on a silver fukcing platter.

No, these folks are not a classic WWII army. These folks are the ones who try to dress like us, talk like us and look like us. To blend with us and become (in our eyes) part of “us” These are the folks who try to misdirect us…”its not us, its you” these are the folks who try to make us sympathise with their “cause”. All to put us at ease. All to use our own peace loving nature against us. So they can siddle up to us and then stab us in the back. In short, the French, but much more effective and without the predeliction to surrender. And, as in WWII, like Hitlers Nazis (not the general german populace mind you, but the died in the wool party members) , they believe they are better than us, not our equals, and that they have a dive right to rule the world. The fact that they are not plunging across the Rhine in a battalion of Panzers is immaterial. Personally, I really, truly, wish they were….because tanks are easy. They look like weapons, and they act like weapons. They also give off ridiculously unique heat signatures and are ponderously slow, making them nothing but a perfect target. Most importantly, in this day and age, they are politically correct to kill. The fukcing Mujahadim, standing in the fukcing marketplace, next to the fukcing fried salamander cart, in a crowd of people, holding a little girl in one hand and a FIM-92A Stinger in the other under his fukcing skirt is not an easy target, in any respect. The fukcing good natured, swarthy looking fellow whos been living next door in your neighborhood for the last threes years, whos been squeezing the nitrates out of all that potting soil he’s been buying, well, that cokcsuckers even harder to spot than the POS in the marketplace. But guess what….all three are going to kill you just as dead, because the human element of all three think you deserve to die in the pursuit of their cause.

Perspective

SS

I agree that everyone has a right to “have their say”
I also agree that ‘young people’ are not adults.

But think back to when you were young. Do you remember what it was like? I do. I refuse to forget what it was like to be young…to feel oppressed by those older than me, those with the power of age over me…telling me what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. I remember what it was like to be 17 and to know everything. I refuse to forget being poor, not being able to make more money because I was young, “inexperienced” or “uneducated”. I refuse to forget how exciting it was to do things I hadnt done before, I refuse to forget how alive it made me feel to take risks ---even though I didn’t understand the consequence Even though I didn’t understand there was such a thing as a consequence. I refuse to forget the lessons those risks taught me, and how valuable those lessons were. I refuse to forget being poor even after I got an education and a good job, because I was still considered “uneducated” and “inexperienced” and not “worth” more money.

I also refuse to forget that no matter where I go, no matter what I do, no matter what I achieve, there will always be someone, or something higher up the chain than me. Only these days, I don’t mind being lower on the ladder.

Before I go on, there are a couple of bits of wisdom that apply here. “Be careful of what you wish for, you may get it” and “youth is wasted on the young” (I figured the inverse to that, and believe it is just as accurate) “Wisdom is wasted on the aged”.

Well, Im in my forties now, and I got what I wished for. I am at the very top of my game. I am it. I am THE man, the guy with more experience than anyone else where I work. The guy everyone comes to ask “how” or “why”. That sounds conceited and very egotistical, and Id be lying if I said I didn’t have an ego, but you know what? I’ll be damned if I don’t wake up every morning cringing at having that kind of influence. Why? Because my age and experience allows me to understand the depth of that responsibility, and because that same age and experience allows me to understand just how truly inexperianced and ‘uneducated’ I really, am. But I did get what I wished for. And now, my experience has taught me that I don’t want the responsibility that goes with it…even though I was told, warned, “prepared” for the consequences of my pursuit. I don’t want that responsibility at all….not any of it. I don’t want others to rely on me to that extent.

You, me, Jake, Wing Ding, Jef, Riser, Phuk, Tom, the Chunt Funter, all of us….no matter how hard we try, we will never be perfect. Not ever. There is not a day that has or will ever go by in my life when I will not make mistakes. The farther you climb up the ladder, the harder the fall when others realize you aint all that and a ham sandwich, and the more grave the consequences. But guess what….I fukcing knew….I was “prepared”. I was trained. I was schooled. But I wasn’t experienced enough to understand.

Why all that crap above? Simple. You dont get “prepared” for what is expected by reading it in a book. You dont get “prepared” for what is expected by sitting in a class. You dont get “prepared” for what is expected by watching an educational video. I know this all too well because I am a teacher of sorts. And, as I said, the most experienced in my organization. The man.

Over the years I’ve made my input to those books, and those classes and those videos. And still, regardless of how much of our own experience weve put into those preparatory aids, I and my compatriots must take our charges out, stick them in the machines, and teach them how to use the machines…..because the reality of that experience is nothing like the “preparation” of the books, classes or videos. And even after I and my compatriots are done “preparing” our charges, they are still not prepared for what is out there, and they never will be until they have actually gone out and experienced it.

Heres a WWII stat for you that illustrates the point. The average life expectancy for a US combat pilot during WWII was less than 5 combat flights. Why? Experience, or rather lack of. Even with all the flight training they underwent before they went into combat, they still were not “prepared” for the experience of combat. You know what prepared them for the experience of combat? Only one thing. The experience of combat itself. The back side of that statistic is this; If the young aviator survived through his fifth combat mission, his chances of surviving to the end of his tour increased exponentially. Why? Combat Experience. The US took that stat, and did something about it. And they improved combat pilots life expectancy. But guess what. Green pilots still die in combat. You know what the best lesson was out of that? What gave the best results? Not trying to simulate combat, but figuring out that you always stay with your wingman, and you never put 2 FNGs together as wingmen. You put an experienced guy with a FNG…..to keep the FNG alive until he’s got the fukcing experience to do it on his own….but by that time….hes not a FNG anymore…he’s experienced

The point of all this? You don’t get experienced at a thing if you don’t go out and actually do that thing. You can spend your entire life “preparing” for something, and when you actually go to do it, you still are not prepared. You have to actually do it. You will never understand a thing until you do it. You will never understand the consequences of a thing until you do it. You will never understand the impact of a thing on your own being, your own soul, until you do it. Never. Not ever. No matter how much you prepare, no matter how many people with experience try to pass that experience on to you..


Those people have a right to protest. A constitutional right. Im not disagreeing with you about that. But they don’t have a right to promote physical action, peaceful or otherwise. And they certainly don’t have a right to use those students as pawns in a scheme to promote their own opinions

And that’s why I despise these people. Just as the oil barons use the US as a scapegoat to misdirect the actions of the have nots, these people use the ‘plight’ of the college students to misdirect the actions of the public.


Oh, BTW

[quotemsg=510260,16,58716]
i am 100% and i mean 100% certain that if you asked the majority of the soldiers of WWII who were about that age halfway through the time in the war if they would like to have volunteered for the army they would have said no.[quotemsg]
funny that "you are 100% certain that if you asked the majority of the soldiers of WWII who were about that age halfway through the time in the war if they would like to have volunteered for the army they would have said no" because I would say thats BS.

Well, maybe it is true. In Scotland. But in the US, I cant state as fact its not true. Every single male in my families previous generation, my father, 4 blood uncles and 8 marital uncles all served in the US armed forces....with one exception.....a blood uncle who volunteered but was prohibited from serving due to a heart problem. Of the 12 males who did serve, 9 of them served in WWII. 2 of them won Silver Stars, one a Purple Heart. All were volunteers. My father was to young to serve during WWII. He had to get parental permission to join in 1946 at age 17. And my family was in no way shape or form unique.

So much for certainty.

The US are building a space station? Yeah, right, they're just building their next gravy train.

We don't belong in space. Not as we are now. This damned species needs to eradicate at least 75% of its own overblown population before we'll be ready to go to space.

What will happen in space as we are now: competitive technological arms races, warring factions in the asteroid belt, warring factions on Mars, and colonialism. Not to mention a whole host of other human evils.

We need to burn this pathetic bloodlust and greed out of ourselves through a severe balls-up, like a nuclear exchange or ecological collapse.

Before we go to space, we need to stop abusing what we've learned and developed. Until then, the cycle will not be broken until we are extinct.

Continue discussing.

god dammit, that was an awesome post that you deserve a hug for i tell you that.

however, i still do not agree that there was the same need to go to war as there was in WWII. The modern wars have nothing to do with our security, i do not believe that the public in general are at more risk from attack than they are from getting assautled and killed in the street, or getting run done by a drunk driver or any of the hundreds of other way's you can die.

the wars are also not about other people's freedoms as there are alot worse situations in the world that go on so why these wars? as you say, the groups have nooffcial leader and killing one will not stop them so why use one guy as an excuse to invade a country or make up a heap of rubbish and use it to invade an oil rich country which had left a bad taste in the mouth from previous encounters?

also, why mention lockerbie as an example, it means nothing to me and nothing to most people unless directly involved if they are honest enough to admit it.

also, i am sure your family has served in the armed forces and WWII however, you didn't read what i wrote. i did not say that people didn't want to volunteer, i said that if you asked them half way through the war if they would have knowing what did would they have volunteered and i still believe the answer would have been no, if they say otherwise i think they are lying, nothing against your family members, just that it is easier to look back on things and remember them a certain way than to be frank about what it was like at the time.

however, your point about needing experience in life to prepare you for things i agree with but i do not understand it's relevance to the quote you referred to. Young people may want to do things but it doesn't mean they should be allowed, i do not think people as yound as that should be conscripted or forced to do anything like going to war, it is like saying if you want to learn how to fight go pick a fight with someone. you need training first and the training needs to be applied, true nothing but combat prepares you for combat but you cn come damn close and be as prepared as you can be if you just remember your training.

still a good rant thereeven if i disagree with most of it.

And the problem with that is......?
Hey man...its just business, and business makes the world go round.

@ turpit:

thank you.

** Bites tongue in the interests of forum sanity and Jakes blood preasure **

Do you really want to go back down that road again? WMD would just be the start of it.

** Leave SS to explain that one in person **

And just look at all the silly YouTube videos those lazy bastages have time to make... No wonder their still out there.

What a very American comment.

Im not talking about improvements in 'quality' of food, Im talking about the extent of phyical labor involved in its production. Which has dropped to nil, relatively speaking and illegal labor(pickers) aside, courtesy of improvements in technology. Whether or not those improvments improve or degrade the quality is moot. That they have removed the physical and emotional stressors which result in decreased life span is the point of my opinion.

As for the quality, well, I wont argue about the quality of manufactured food. I agree whole heartedly that its sh!t. Though I do understand the mental process behind the production and consumption of manufactured food.....its always the same, which is comforting, unlike natural foods, which vary in taste and quality. Im not justifying, not in any way, just saying I understand how the stuff rose to popularity.

I am not separating the two. I stated:

where chemical = medication.

Medication is a component of medicine where medicine is the dicipline, practice, art, what have you. As such, it cannot be separated from medicine. However, the term medicine and the term medication are two different, separate terms. You can certainly recieve medical aid without the use of medication, but if you make use of medication, you are engaging in 'medicine'

No, its not what I believe, just presenting the perspective at the opposite end of the range of possibilites.
What I believe in are the more philosophical approaches. "The best defense is a good offence"....in terms of health "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". Take care of your body by not exposing/abusing it, and it will take care of you. And when that fails, Penicillin for internal infections and Hydrogen Peroxide for external infections. I was told by a doctor, who wasnt on the take, and have proven to myself, that one of the best 'cures' for external (topical) infections, when the body wont do the job itself, is plain, simple hydrogen peroxide. Keep the wound clean, change the dressing frequently, and be patient. And it works. The human race survived those millions of years before the wonders of Merck, because we didnt have the wonders of Merck killing us.

I know...err used to know the stats for TV adertising time in the US vs Europe/Australia. We get bombarded by a lot more advertising than you guys do. At least we used to. I dont know if youve seen the pharmecutical ads we get, but they are mind blowing....'take pill 'X' to ease your upset stomach. Warning: Side effects may include but are not limited to dizziness, loss of appetite, loss of sex drive, drowsiness, nausea, vomiting, upset stomach. If you experiance any of these side effect, notify your doctor immediately'

My appologies for misinterpreting.
Its true that many do without in the US when they dont have to, but the US is a world apart from many other countries. Here, people bring it on themselves. Katrina provided ample example of that when New Orleans residents left homeless by the hurricane were offered housing and jobs in both Texas and Utah, but refused. Not because they didnt want to move, but because they wanted handouts, not jobs. In short, they are lazy.

I allow myself the pleasure of brandishing that term....so from that perspective, perhaps it is self centered. But really, from my perspective it less self centered and more about....well, I would have to say bitterness. Ive been paying income taxes since I was 14. I qualified for social security at 34 and have the statements to prove it. The town I grew up in was populated by many lawyers and doctors, and their kids didnt have to lift a finger. But times change...Im not sure if it federal law, or state law, but my niece, from the same home town, wasnt legally allowed to start working until 16, so she is an example of external influences limiting her, rather than her limiting herself. Ive had to work for what I have and to get where I am, so I dont have much respect for capable people who are just looking for handouts.

Well, given that, you have my sympathy. Im certainly no doctor, but if your doing what you say (really doing it and not just paying lip service) yet still experiancing severe discomfort, Id be willing to bet theres something else getting into your body that doesnt belong there. The reason I asked about chicago was this: Chicago reputedly chlorinates its drinking water abnormally high, and from what I have read, there seems to be a higher number of reports of gastroesophageal reflux, associated with that chlorination. Have you looked at that also...what your local water authority uses to treat the drinking water, and how much they use? Im assuming your on piped water, but if you are on a well, you may want to take some water in (in the US we can take it to the local cooperative extension or equivelant) for analysis. Their may be something in there agravating your situation. . How old is your house, whats in it? In the US, studies have found that lead used in solder on copper pipes has been migrating into tap water. Lead based paint, PCBs, asbestos What type of heating? If its forced air....the ducts can become breeding grounds for all manner of nasty stuff, especially if you have cats or dogs. If the housing codes are as strict in the UK as the US, if its a newer house, it shouldnt be a problem, but if its an older home, well, it maybe a source.

My appologies. In fact, I didnt know the UK was on socialized medicine, and as such, was clearly speaking from my arse.

Not a survivalist, just using a simple example of how an 'economy' can start.

I hope your not using curry now.....might just as well use gasoline for your health problems.

I agree there are worse markets. God knows, there is really no need for much of the crap manufactured today, but toying with peoples heath for a few bucks....to me thats a lot worse than pet therapists or convincing the teensage girls of the planet they need a different color Ipod for each day of the week.

LOL, well, I will only defend my spelling by saying....erm...ah screw it. I know I cant spell.