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Upgrading Graphics Card = Upgrading Power Supply?

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December 3, 2006 8:32:51 AM

I'm about to upgrade card, right now i have a RADEON X600 PRO that came with the computer, it has no fans, just a simple heatsink.
I'm planning on upgrading to an X1900GT, and since this one has a reasonably sized fan i thought i might need to change the power supply too. The one i have right now is 250W (Made by FSP). Would i need to upgrade to a larger Wattage if i buy this card?

Thanks for your time.
December 3, 2006 9:18:51 AM

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say...ABSO-FRIGGING-LUTELY. Regardless of how many amps a PSU has on its 12V rail(s), there is no way in hell a 250w can support a computer with an x1900gt. Maybe the card itself, and no processor, one drive...you get the point.

Then there's the fact that most PSUs under 300w were built before 12V rails started becoming important.

I'm afraid you need an upgrade, my friend.
a b U Graphics card
December 3, 2006 9:42:35 AM

Given the quality of FSP, I'd have to say you'd still want at least another 50W. But given prices and the fact I don't like being near the limit, I'd say go with an FSP power supply of 400-450W to save money and get a little more than you need.
Related resources
December 3, 2006 9:47:36 AM

For sure second that
December 3, 2006 9:58:59 AM

Hmm 400-500W sounds reasonable. Now, sorry for the newbie question but, do all PSU's work on all computers? or should i look for a specific type/size/make?
December 3, 2006 10:05:19 AM

Most psu are the same but if you plan on upgrading to the 8800 someday you will need this with the psu
2 6-pin supplementary power connectors from SMPS I use enermax
check here for 2 6pin if not sure
go to pin lay out
a b U Graphics card
December 3, 2006 10:05:45 AM

Junk power supplies often fry systems. That's how my local dealer gets most of his work, he replaces a worn-out power supply (usually a mid-quality part that lived 3 or 4 years) with a low-end unit, then waits for the system to come back in. Half the time it comes back in within six months with a fried motherboard.

Good for business! LOL!

There are lots of different physical sizes for power supplies, supposing you're using the most common PS/2 form factor (what everyone calls ATX size) you have a lot more options.

Get something quality. Fortron Source has good units for fair prices, as does its sister brand Sparkle Power.
December 3, 2006 3:19:44 PM

Quote:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say...ABSO-FRIGGING-LUTELY. Regardless of how many amps a PSU has on its 12V rail(s), there is no way in hell a 250w can support a computer with an x1900gt. Maybe the card itself, and no processor, one drive...you get the point.

Then there's the fact that most PSUs under 300w were built before 12V rails started becoming important.

I'm afraid you need an upgrade, my friend.


LOL, I totally agree. The X1900 I believe requires at least a 400w PSU. Whenever upgrading from a low-end card to a higher-end one in most cases the PSU will definitely have to be upgarded. To be on the safe side you should invest in a 500w or more. There are not that expensive and fairly easy to install.
a b U Graphics card
December 3, 2006 3:49:47 PM

That little 430W SeaSonic will give him plenty of room to grow, it's not like he's running a Pentium D with it.
December 3, 2006 4:29:23 PM

Quote:
That little 430W SeaSonic will give him plenty of room to grow, it's not like he's running a Pentium D with it.


i AM running pentium D with it...is that a problem?
a b U Graphics card
December 3, 2006 4:40:11 PM

You're running a Pentium D on a 250W power supply? I'm impressed! Pentium D uses up to half of that power on its own!

I'd go with the SeaSonic.
December 3, 2006 5:31:24 PM

Lol, its a D830 (2x3.00Ghz) Runs very nice...would be great news though if it turns out upping the PSU will optimize processor performance!

Seasonic? Well, seasonic it is then! You rather that than the OCZ? Even though theyre the same price?
a b U Graphics card
December 3, 2006 6:18:44 PM

SeaSonic has a top reputation in the power supply industry. OCZ and CoolerMaster buy their power supplies from companies like AcBell and SevenTeam.
December 3, 2006 6:53:40 PM

Well, what can i say, thank you so much for your help (all of you).

So if everything goes well, i will soon be buying this card and this PSU^^

Thanks!
December 4, 2006 10:24:38 PM

This is the most amount of non sense I have ever heard.
Ive been running all my systems on cheap under 20$ power supplies and not once ever have I had fried hardware. Hell Ive never even had a psu go on me. And these systems are up 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
A 20$ 450watt psu, will be more then sufficient to power your system.



Quote:
Junk power supplies often fry systems. That's how my local dealer gets most of his work, he replaces a worn-out power supply (usually a mid-quality part that lived 3 or 4 years) with a low-end unit, then waits for the system to come back in. Half the time it comes back in within six months with a fried motherboard.

Good for business! LOL!

There are lots of different physical sizes for power supplies, supposing you're using the most common PS/2 form factor (what everyone calls ATX size) you have a lot more options.

Get something quality. Fortron Source has good units for fair prices, as does its sister brand Sparkle Power.
a b U Graphics card
December 4, 2006 11:12:33 PM

I'm hoping a moderator will delete your post, because in spite of your good luck I've actually participated at Level 2 of the scam.

Level 2 is, when the board gets fried due to a supposed "lightening strike" when we don't even get lightening...the owner often leaves his system at the shop rather than pay for the diagnostics. The systems were then passed to me where whatever parts that weren't fried would get put into other abandoned systems and resold. And refried. And resalvaged. And resold.

And here's the worst part: I used to fix the blown $20 power supplies in the same manner, scapping some to fix others. For around half an hours work I got $10. It's not much, just a chance to have the power supply fail again when more parts blow. So that I could get more free systems to salvage, re-sell, and re-fry again.

I even have some nice photos of WHY those crap power supplies really are crap. Try taking the lid off one and see what ISN'T there.

You're not going to agree because you've been lucky, so I guess the best thing that could happen to all of us, just to get you to quit with the bad advice, is for you to loose everything to a failed power supply. Yes, that would be quite nice.
December 4, 2006 11:58:22 PM

Without mocking the US, aren´t there any safety standards PSU manufacturers have to oblige to? I mean the list of ecological laws a PSU manufacturer needs to fullfill in europe is as long as my arm and the saftey regulations aren´t much shorter.
a b U Graphics card
December 5, 2006 12:19:04 AM

LOL, yeh, the law requires a fuse to prevent fires.'

BTW, I meant lose everything inside the system, not lose EVERYTHING.
December 5, 2006 12:50:53 AM

Quote:
Without mocking the US, aren´t there any safety standards PSU manufacturers have to oblige to? I mean the list of ecological laws a PSU manufacturer needs to fullfill in europe is as long as my arm and the saftey regulations aren´t much shorter.


All power supplies, meet the same safety standards.


You know what the difference between a 100$ psu and a 25$ psu is?

The organization of the components and brand name. thats it. They are exactly the same stuff. The only difference is how they circulate air within them selves and the system. So if you think your 140$ psu, will beat out my 35$ psu (brand new) then I dont think you know what you are talking about.

Most people on these forums jump on the bandwagon that paying 10 times more should make it 10 times better, even though the components are all the same from one to the other. Also the chance of your PSU exploding and killing all of your other components is very slim. Actually just around the same ball park as a cheaper PSU.



You aren't paying for insurance when you buy a more expensive power supply.

Oh ya, and this isn't a scam. These are brand new power supplies that I am talking about. So I dont know what you are talking about in level 2 scams. And yes, these PSU's must adhere to all safety regulations in order to be sold, so I dont know what you are referring to about the PSU's missing components - i got an idea, maybe you shouldn't try t obe a shifty repair man?


I wouldn't be surprised if the 100$ psu, comes out of the same factory as the 20$ psu. Only difference is name brand, and how the fan is placed in relation to the air holes LOL
a b U Graphics card
December 5, 2006 1:26:33 AM

Yeh, I know more about power supplies than you, mostly because I cared enough to look inside. Forget that I also repair them. Exactly the same except for hte brand names is an outright lie, I put photos in an article I did two years ago for SysOpt showing how a 150W Gateway power supply is built better than a 400W PowMax. More caps, more chokes, heavier transformers that can take the load for longer periods of time, etc.

Of course the quality of parts is not easily dismissed either: Most crap power supplies die due to failed capacitors.
December 5, 2006 2:02:27 AM

Quote:
Without mocking the US, aren´t there any safety standards PSU manufacturers have to oblige to? I mean the list of ecological laws a PSU manufacturer needs to fullfill in europe is as long as my arm and the saftey regulations aren´t much shorter.


All power supplies, meet the same safety standards.


You know what the difference between a 100$ psu and a 25$ psu is?

The organization of the components and brand name. thats it. They are exactly the same stuff. The only difference is how they circulate air within them selves and the system. So if you think your 140$ psu, will beat out my 35$ psu (brand new) then I dont think you know what you are talking about.

Most people on these forums jump on the bandwagon that paying 10 times more should make it 10 times better, even though the components are all the same from one to the other. Also the chance of your PSU exploding and killing all of your other components is very slim. Actually just around the same ball park as a cheaper PSU.



You aren't paying for insurance when you buy a more expensive power supply.

Oh ya, and this isn't a scam. These are brand new power supplies that I am talking about. So I dont know what you are talking about in level 2 scams. And yes, these PSU's must adhere to all safety regulations in order to be sold, so I dont know what you are referring to about the PSU's missing components - i got an idea, maybe you shouldn't try t obe a shifty repair man?


I wouldn't be surprised if the 100$ psu, comes out of the same factory as the 20$ psu. Only difference is name brand, and how the fan is placed in relation to the air holes LOL

Full of sh$t. Hey you know what? Fords and Ferarris have a lot in common too, both have engines, transmissions, wheels, seats... etc. DAMN they must all be made at the same place with the exact same parts....
December 5, 2006 2:06:13 AM

Quote:
Without mocking the US, aren´t there any safety standards PSU manufacturers have to oblige to? I mean the list of ecological laws a PSU manufacturer needs to fullfill in europe is as long as my arm and the saftey regulations aren´t much shorter.


All power supplies, meet the same safety standards.


You know what the difference between a 100$ psu and a 25$ psu is?

The organization of the components and brand name. thats it. They are exactly the same stuff. The only difference is how they circulate air within them selves and the system. So if you think your 140$ psu, will beat out my 35$ psu (brand new) then I dont think you know what you are talking about.

Most people on these forums jump on the bandwagon that paying 10 times more should make it 10 times better, even though the components are all the same from one to the other. Also the chance of your PSU exploding and killing all of your other components is very slim. Actually just around the same ball park as a cheaper PSU.



You aren't paying for insurance when you buy a more expensive power supply.

Oh ya, and this isn't a scam. These are brand new power supplies that I am talking about. So I dont know what you are talking about in level 2 scams. And yes, these PSU's must adhere to all safety regulations in order to be sold, so I dont know what you are referring to about the PSU's missing components - i got an idea, maybe you shouldn't try t obe a shifty repair man?


I wouldn't be surprised if the 100$ psu, comes out of the same factory as the 20$ psu. Only difference is name brand, and how the fan is placed in relation to the air holes LOL

WOW 8O
a b U Graphics card
December 5, 2006 2:08:08 AM

d00d, just click on the link for a good laugh, the Gateway 2000 145W ATX power supply had more filter components and a larger transformer than the PowMax 400W unit.
December 5, 2006 2:10:01 AM

Lol, I can't believe some stuff you are saying! You simply lucky, not everyone is so fortunate.

I hope Mpilchfamily sees this thread...

See the OP of this thread:
http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/Makes-PSU-ftopi...

And read around the net for some horror stories. I have seen many, Crashman has certainly seen his share, we forumites who "jump on the bandwagon to pay 10 times what we need to" do this because we know what the hell we are talking about.

As I write this...I hope my crappy Ultra doesn't explode on me soon...

I purchased it before I knew better, after the holidays I am getting a high quality, hopefully my Ultra lasts until then.
a b U Graphics card
December 5, 2006 2:22:42 AM

The funny thing is, a Fortron Source power supply has at least 3x the cost put into its internal components, but usually cost less than 3x the price of a similarly-rated "generic" part.
a b U Graphics card
December 5, 2006 2:27:23 AM

Ive never had a psu fail on me either and I've worked with lots of cheap psus. I ran my old a64 system with a 9800 pro on a generic 400W for 2 years before I replaced it (with another cheap but name brand psu) because I thought it was causing problems. Turns out it was, but not the problem that was immediately obvious, which was caused by an overheating video card (which was fixed nicely with a vf700-cu).
However, I would never recommend a cheap psu for a mid to high end system, or even a budget system unless bottom dollar is TOP priority. Still, generic wont even cut it there.
December 5, 2006 2:33:20 AM

Spec's please? :lol: 
Because i bet my 130 dollar psu holds sway over yours
a b U Graphics card
December 5, 2006 2:39:10 AM

And show some pics to, of the inside :roll: . Hang on I'll get my glasses, or I might not see anything :lol: 
a b U Graphics card
December 5, 2006 2:42:55 AM

Quote:
Spec's please? :lol: 
Because i bet my 130 dollar psu holds sway over yours

Predicted specs:
single +12V = 12A
single +5V = 16A
single +3.3V = 18A

All values are peak outputs for a maximum of 3 seconds.
December 5, 2006 2:44:06 AM

and still no spec's :? at least i post what i got :wink:
a b U Graphics card
December 5, 2006 2:53:30 AM

Check this out, here is a cheap psu with a difference, and the one I bought as a replacement of my generic 400W:

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/332/2

Theres some pretty nice looking stuff in there compared to a generic psu.
December 5, 2006 3:49:30 AM

Quote:
Check this out, here is a cheap psu with a difference, and the one I bought as a replacement of my generic 400W:

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/332/2

Theres some pretty nice looking stuff in there compared to a generic psu.


That link gave me a dead end, and sorry about the post before this one,you beat me to the post :wink:

I just upgraded from that, it still works,was only about 4 to 6 months old.
When i got the 4600+ i got the cosair psu also. Yes i agree the TR2-430W did just fine, but i had money burning a hole my pocket :wink:
a b U Graphics card
December 5, 2006 3:59:03 AM

No prob. This psu is how all generic psus should be made. Its still cheap to, real cheap.
a b U Graphics card
December 5, 2006 4:00:00 AM

What do you mean the TR2 had a hole burning in your pocket?

EDIT: Yes, post no. 400! 400 unhelpful entries into the TGFZ database :lol:  Now I'm an addict.
December 6, 2006 1:49:32 AM

Okay here is a break down, to help you understand life.

The reason why you have heard horror stories of generic power supplies blowing up is because of this:

There are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of generic power supplies out there. For every 10,000 generic power supply, there is 1 brand name high end power supply.

ITs simple percentage of numbers. THe chance of a power supply breaking down and failing is going to be reported much highly amongst the generic users as THERE ARE SO MANY MORE OF THEM. Its actaully simple numbers.

Do you not think there have been horror stories with the more expensive units????

Its like buying expensive tires. Not everyone on the road is driving with 1000$ tires on their car. Does that mean they should not drive their cars, or be afraid to drive their car??
Sure the 1000$ tires are better, they have higher speed rating, etc, but what, does that mean that the 400$ tires are going to explode on you for no reason??

There is a risk invovled in everything in life. Granted the more expensive power supplies have more extensive testing done on them, but, you pay more for it, and you are NOT guranteed anything. It could still blow up on you, just as likely as a generic.

Anyway, go figure. Most of you here are the type to say "buy the more expensive one" without using any logic at all. Thats okay with me, its your money.
a b U Graphics card
December 6, 2006 2:09:46 AM

You know the truth, I even linked to photos, so that only leaves one thing left of your analysis: You're lying. There are many reasons to lie, one is to justify an underlying belief or resentment, but these are not honorable reasons to discredit the truth.
a b U Graphics card
December 6, 2006 2:27:57 AM

Quote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the 100$ psu, comes out of the same factory as the 20$ psu. Only difference is name brand, and how the fan is placed in relation to the air holes LOL

Oh mighty Guru. :roll: An el cheapo 300W might weight 2 pounds while a high quality 300 watt could weigh well over 3 pounds. Same factory? I guess like Crash said you haven't bothered to open them up to see what's in side (or not inside) nor even used a high quality one to know that they don't even feel the same in your hands. If that generic 450W you spoke of feels like a half full can of MT Dew in your hand, it should not take a genius to figure out there aint much inside.
December 6, 2006 8:05:04 AM

In the midst of all this, may i ask where my "to be" Seasonic lies?

I dont know if its cheap or expensive, reliable or not, all i know is Crashman reccomended it ^^
a b U Graphics card
December 6, 2006 9:17:50 AM

Quote:
SeaSonic has a top reputation in the power supply industry. OCZ and CoolerMaster buy their power supplies from companies like AcBell and SevenTeam.


I didnt believe it at first but iv seen a rig with an AcBell 300w Rev.2 PSU running a Pentium D 945 (3.4ghz) and a GeForce 7900GTX512! Makes me think twice bout AcBell's.
December 6, 2006 10:33:20 AM

Thanks for your expert analysis. Obviously, because a psu weighs less and costs less, it should definately be total shit, that should explode as soon as you plug it into an outlet. Infact plugging it in to an outlet should cost instant death amongst you, just because youi didn't opt for a 130$ psu.

NEVER mind the fact that practically 98% of people out there are operating on a generic power supply that came with their cases..

Once again, thanks for proving the point that people at Toms Hardware actually know very little about the reality of how electrical products work.

Part of my reason for posting inthe first place because I am tired of reading bad advice on these forums. No one seems to use an logic when they make their posts. everyone here seems like a spoiled 15 year old kid who instantly resorts to "BUY THE 500$ PSU from BFG IT OWNS JOOOO!!!!"
"Buy the 800$ CPU AS ITS THE BEST ON THE MARKET!!!!!!!111"

Most people cannot afford to spend all this extra cash on these so called top of the line products. You have to settle for the lower quality ones.

A celeron processor costs 50$. Does that mean it will short circuit your mother board because its the bottom end CPU???? It might be slow, it might not provide u with the power as a duo core, but does that mean it will fry your mother board because it sucks??

A Ford may not cost the same as ferari, but tell me, when you are traveling from point A to point B in the city, does the Ferrari make you safer? Why should it when all cars have a standard to reach and meet in order to be sold here? The ferrari may cost 500,000$, but that doesn't mean that the 15,000$ Ford is going to explode on you. Also I got an idea, why dont you go look at how many fords are on the road, and how many Ferraris are on the road.

Go and speak to ferrari owners and their horror stories about when their cars have problems. Go and speak to the majority of the ferrari owners see how many problems they have as compared the Hundres of millions that own Fords. It is once again simple numbners.. You hear about FORD problems more then you hear about FErrari problems because chances are 90% of the people u speak to own a Ford. Who the hell owns a ferrari?? No they are not made the same, but they have VERY similar engineering. Do you think a Ferrari enginer, the basic piston and cylinder operate that much differently then a Ford engine?

Why would you spend 500$ on tires for a car that costs 20,000? Why not go and buy Formula 1 tires for your car and spend 5000$?? This is the same logic that you guys are using.

W/E. I dont think too many of you even know what I am talking about Let alone understand the point that I am trying to make.




Quote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the 100$ psu, comes out of the same factory as the 20$ psu. Only difference is name brand, and how the fan is placed in relation to the air holes LOL

Oh mighty Guru. :roll: An el cheapo 300W might weight 2 pounds while a high quality 300 watt could weigh well over 3 pounds. Same factory? I guess like Crash said you haven't bothered to open them up to see what's in side (or not inside) nor even used a high quality one to know that they don't even feel the same in your hands. If that generic 450W you spoke of feels like a half full can of MT Dew in your hand, it should not take a genius to figure out there aint much inside.
December 6, 2006 11:38:16 AM

Quote:
In the midst of all this, may i ask where my "to be" Seasonic lies?

I dont know if its cheap or expensive, reliable or not, all i know is Crashman reccomended it ^^


I've been looking into psu for my new build, and after some search on the net, the Seasonic psu's are recommended for their quality, reliable, efficient and silent.
(So in the end you save some on your power bill too, due their better efficiency)

And since all components in your computer get their power from the psu, I would say, just spend that extra $25 on it, and have quality components!
a b U Graphics card
December 6, 2006 12:05:04 PM

Quote:
NEVER mind the fact that practically 98% of people out there are operating on a generic power supply that came with their cases

:lol:  This shows what you know. As if most computer users build their own or get them from shady system builders like yourself. Most large OEM's have a high quality power supply in their systems. For home builts, many cases come with high quality. I've used Enlight and Antec for years because of this. And besides, you don't have to spend a ton of money to buy a quality one. When crappy power supplies have gone on people, I replace them with Fortron Source (FSB Group). Anyway, the rest of your ramblings should have been directed somewhere else. I just replied to one line of yours. Kinda like your 98% statistic above :roll:

Want to come back with any more rediculous lines we can Quote?
a b U Graphics card
a c 144 ) Power supply
December 6, 2006 12:11:38 PM

About 2 years ago, tomshardware tested several several pc ps's. The staff here built load banks to test the ps's at rated load. The good ones held rated load past 50 degrees C., then shut down gracefully. Two of the cheap ones would not hold load past 25 C., then failed catastrophically. That's engineer-speak for "burst into flames".

My experience with the cheap generics is that the sleeve bearing fan fails first. Since I can buy a generic replacement 400 w ps in Saudi Arabia for about $20, it is not worth fixing.

I am in the process of building an upscale (for me, at least) new box - 680i mb, e6600, gts8800, 2 GB ram. I found an Antec 650w Trio on sale. I am NOT going to trust a cheap power supply.

BTW, Sea Sonic makes at least some of the Antec ps's.

First computer - 1978.

john
December 6, 2006 12:14:47 PM

HP are still using some of the worst PSUs available.

They had to haggle with the EU about green computing because they wanted to use cheaper PSUs in their PCs that didn't meat EU regulations.

Dell on the other hand, of late, have been using some very highly efficient PSUs (in their more baseline models, vs HP).

Either way you look at it, even a 'high end' Dell or HP/Compaq tower PC will have a mid-range PSU in it, and be upgradable to upper-midrange Video Cards after 12 months (by which time the lower power consumption GPUs / Vid-Cards have come out).

For a stock PC with integrated video a highly efficient 250 watt PSU would work, however most would use a less efficient 380 watt PSU in "consumer PCs".

After 3-4 years the PSUs lose heaps of efficiency, and if not replaced they 'time-bomb' the typical consumer desktop PC when they fail (in a bad way).

Which is why I recommend going +50%, or even +100% what you think you need on PSU, you'll be able to keep it for 3 upgrades then (saves money over time, reduces chance of killing other hardware that is out of warranty, and even as they get less efficient with age they should output ample power for most users).

PS: I recommend CWT over SeaSonic, because I've had 4 SeaSonic PSUs fail on me within 12 months of purchase, prior to that I was happy with them (Happy enough to keep using SeaSonic that is :p  )
December 6, 2006 12:24:25 PM

Ya becasue you know, dell puts a 100$ psu in your terrible rip off of a 700$ system.
Thanks for enlightening us with your brilliance. You dont need to spend a ton of money to buy a quality one?? So then you agree, 20 to 50$ for a PSU is a good price. You cant find a 450 Watt power supply for less then 30$ anyway, even the generics.


Quote:
NEVER mind the fact that practically 98% of people out there are operating on a generic power supply that came with their cases

:lol:  This shows what you know. As if most computer users build their own or get them from shady system builders like yourself. Most large OEM's have a high quality power supply in their systems. For home builts, many cases come with high quality. I've used Enlight and Antec for years because of this. And besides, you don't have to spend a ton of money to buy a quality one. When crappy power supplies have gone on people, I replace them with Fortron Source (FSB Group). Anyway, the rest of your ramblings should have been directed somewhere else. I just replied to one line of yours. Kinda like your 98% statistic above :roll:

Want to come back with any more rediculous lines we can Quote?
December 6, 2006 1:31:24 PM

Hello OP.

At this point, you have heard a great deal about power supplies from supposed people in the know. I suggest you go to xbitlabs.com and look at their ongoing series on power supplies. What you will find out is that the differences in power supplies is very real. So get a good one, or at least get one with a higher rating than you need so that if it comes up a bit short, it will still work.

Now my opinion: I have had three power supplies die. None of them killed any part of the rest of the system. So while I believe that it is possible, I also believe that they are generally designed to fail safely.
Second: I think you will need a better power supply. I had to upgrade from an Antec 350W when I put my 7900GS into the system and got the Nvidia warning complaining about not enough power. I put in a free-after-rebate Ultra 500W power supply (still free after rebate at frys.com right now!), and it has been doing fine. If you upgrade to any mid or enthusiat level gaming graphics card, you are going to need a power supply now or later.
!