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AGP OR PCI EXPRESS ???

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December 4, 2006 5:09:23 PM

Hi i am planing for buying a graphics card for my system, right now its based on agp motherboard i was wondering to change the board and get a pci-x card under 280 $. or should i buy an agp card i am confused !!!

Or should i sell my board and processor and get a new board, processor and graphics card for about 460$...

My system specification are...

AMD ATHLON 64 3200+ socket 939
MSI NVIDIA k8n neo2 PLATINUM
KINGSTON 1GB RAM
ASUS FX 5200 128MB GRAHPICS


PLZ can anyone help me, i am not a hardcore gamer but still want to play games in a good frame rates... i want a sloution for future...

More about : agp pci express

a b U Graphics card
December 4, 2006 5:17:01 PM

You can buy an NF4 mobo and X1900GT PCI-e for under $250, or you can soon buy an AGP X1950 pro for $250. Both will perform very close with a slight stock speed advantage to the X1950 pro. Overclocked the X1900GT should pull ahead. If you are willing to do some work, go PCI-e. You can sell the K8N neo 2 platinum mobo (NF3U) and recoup some money for the time/labor of the mobo swap.
December 4, 2006 5:28:28 PM

Go PCIe. Just compare the prices of AGP cards to their PCIe counterparts. Getting a new board might be a little more expensive, but buying an AGP card is like throwing away money.
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December 4, 2006 5:47:02 PM

Quote:
Go PCIe. Just compare the prices of AGP cards to their PCIe counterparts. Getting a new board might be a little more expensive, but buying an AGP card is like throwing away money.


pfffft... I beg to differ. I plan to buy the sapphire x1950 pro AGP (512 megs ram) for my athlon 3200 system, and here's why...

pci-e 2.0 should be out by first quarter 2007, and with the new quad core CPU's being introduced, the whole industry will be changing very rapidly again.

spend the $250 on a GREAT AGP card, and wait another 6 months to a year. All these people telling you to convert to pci-e NOW will eat their words and be upgrading again themselves next summer!
December 4, 2006 5:58:26 PM

Quote:
Go PCIe. Just compare the prices of AGP cards to their PCIe counterparts. Getting a new board might be a little more expensive, but buying an AGP card is like throwing away money.


pfffft... I beg to differ. I plan to buy the sapphire x1950 pro AGP (512 megs ram) for my athlon 3200 system, and here's why...

pci-e 2.0 should be out by first quarter 2007, and with the new quad core CPU's being introduced, the whole industry will be changing very rapidly again.

spend the $250 on a GREAT AGP card, and wait another 6 months to a year. All these people telling you to convert to pci-e NOW will eat their words and be upgrading again themselves next summer!

ok first of all you are just going to waste you cash because...
even though PCI-Express 2.0 is coming next year that doesn't mean the cards wont work with PCI-EXPRESS 1.0 kinda like AGP 4x slot with AGP8x slot...
Also if you keep thinking like that then when PCI-Express 2.0 comes out you will be like why... when PCI-3.0 is only around the corner... better take the advice of the others.... get a PCI-Express MoBo and the x1900GT and over clock it. or just leave it :) 
it will last you a pretty long time and you will have still be able to upgrade later to something better ... such as a DX10 card... in stead of just maxing out your AGP system and never being able to and anything more
a c 176 U Graphics card
December 4, 2006 5:58:32 PM

Quote:
All these people telling you to convert to pci-e NOW will eat their words and be upgrading again themselves next summer!


Probably, but I'll bet more then half of them would be upgrading whether PCIe 2.0 was out or not...

Here's the cheapest x1900GT that newegg has. $177 counting shipping. This leaves you with almost $80 to buy a S939 motherboard. Swap your ram and CPU over, and you WILL see a night and "holy crap spotlight, stare right at the sun" day difference between the x1900GT and the (ha ha ha ha, you bought a FX5200....) 5200. If your a gamer, you will be in heaven.
December 4, 2006 6:10:18 PM

ugh.
@xhumeka
Pfffft is Dario's term..refrain from using it on THGFZ :D 

Your going to have some serious drawbacks using your Athlon 3200+ with that videocard. If you get a x1950pro agp...its going to be bottlenecked because your processor is too slow for that videocard. Anything at or equivilant to an Ati x1650 or Nvidia 7600 series card is about as far as your system can handle. Anything more is just wasted money because the framerate will be capped by your Athlon 3200+. Just my $0.02

@shahzad

Get a cheap pci-e mobo....and a video card. The video card will still be compatable with pci-e 2.0 and you can use that card with a newer generation card in crossfire to take advantage of physx.

If you went agp it wouldn't be able to get used on a new motherboard when you decide to get one. So you would be wasting money going with agp only because there is no life for those cards outside of agp (pci-e is standard agp is heavily outdated). Again, I suggest going for Pci-e.
December 4, 2006 6:13:14 PM

Quote:
Go PCIe. Just compare the prices of AGP cards to their PCIe counterparts. Getting a new board might be a little more expensive, but buying an AGP card is like throwing away money.


pfffft... I beg to differ. I plan to buy the sapphire x1950 pro AGP (512 megs ram) for my athlon 3200 system, and here's why...

pci-e 2.0 should be out by first quarter 2007, and with the new quad core CPU's being introduced, the whole industry will be changing very rapidly again.

spend the $250 on a GREAT AGP card, and wait another 6 months to a year. All these people telling you to convert to pci-e NOW will eat their words and be upgrading again themselves next summer!

Nope. PCIe 2.0 will be backwards compatible. The most recent GPUs just started to scratch the bandwidth limits of PCIe 8x so it´s safe to assume that 16x will still hold for a while. The only interesting difference is the power the PCIe supplies with 2.0.
And even if PCIe would be incoompatible with PCIe 2.0 and the switch would be magically pulled on January the 1st, a current PCIe board would still be a good investment and probably hold over the next 2 if not 3 years, just like AGP did when PCIe emerged.
If you buy a 1950 Pro AGP you pay premium for it, just because it´s AGP. It would make sense not to upgrade if someone has a super expensive high end AGP board. Even though that could be sold and a similar one bought with PCIe.
December 4, 2006 6:15:27 PM

I agree that you could be stuck in an endless loop if you always think, "but wait, there will be something better next month!"

however, upgrading from AGP to pci-e NOW still makes little sense to me. Sure, if you had asked me this last year at this time, I would also have advised to upgrade to pci-e. But again, with quad core cpu's and pci 2.0 around the corner, wouldn't it make more sense to wait just a little longer? Upgrading to pci-e right now seems just a little too late in my opinion...

I still think spending $250 on your existing AGP platform and waiting a LITTLE LONGER will be a wiser move than jumping on the pci-e 1.0 bandwagon at the end of it's life...
December 4, 2006 6:17:15 PM

Actually I doubt that the CPU IS TOO weak.. yes it could use an nice upgrade but the CPU isn't a GF8800GTX
The x1900GT is still an mid-range VGA
And if he really thinks that it needs a little more juice he can over clock it...
we all know that the 3200+'s over clock well
December 4, 2006 6:25:23 PM

Quote:
I agree that you could be stuck in an endless loop if you always think, "but wait, there will be something better next month!"

however, upgrading from AGP to pci-e NOW still makes little sense to me. Sure, if you had asked me this last year at this time, I would also have advised to upgrade to pci-e. But again, with quad core cpu's and pci 2.0 around the corner, wouldn't it make more sense to wait just a little longer? Upgrading to pci-e right now seems just a little too late in my opinion...

I still think spending $250 on your existing AGP platform and waiting a LITTLE LONGER will be a wiser move than jumping on the pci-e 1.0 bandwagon at the end of it's life...



If it is a little, then i´d agree, but as far as i know, PCIe 2.0 comes around Q3 2007. At least that´s what i read. I could be mistaken though.
a c 176 U Graphics card
December 4, 2006 6:26:34 PM

Quote:

I still think spending $250 on your existing AGP platform and waiting a LITTLE LONGER will be a wiser move than jumping on the pci-e 1.0 bandwagon at the end of it's life...


So spend $250 on something that is at the end of its life instead of spending $250 on something NEAR the end of its life? I don't get it. Besides, if he buys the AGP card, he'll still be stuck on AGP. If he buys the "same" card with a new motherboard that supports newer videocards, he'll come out ahead.

A 3200+ is fine for a x1900 card.
December 4, 2006 6:27:30 PM

Quote:
I still think spending $250 on your existing AGP platform and waiting a LITTLE LONGER will be a wiser move than jumping on the pci-e 1.0 bandwagon at the end of it's life...


You just burried yourself in a deep deep hole.

AGP < PCI-E

Agp is dead...not worth paying any money for. There is no future for it and wasting any money on anything that is agp is just pointless.
PCI-E is not even close to being at the end of it's life and like Slobogob said, we have yet to even scrath the full bandwidth potential of pci-e 16x.
4745454b said it well....cept for the fact that the Athlon 3200+ will bottleneck the x1950pro

Pci-e 2.0 is backwards compatible with current pci-e so if the man boguht a video card...that was agp...he would be sol as far as options go.

If the man bought pci-e he could use it in all motherboards for the next couple years and he could pair it with a new videocard and take advantage of physx. That in itself is totally worth it.

@melarcky
Quote:
Actually I doubt that the CPU IS TOO weak.. yes it could use an nice upgrade but the CPU isn't a GF8800GTX


First of all, an 8800gtx is not a cpu...its a gpu.
Second of all trust me, he will be bottlenecked by that x1950pro....The 3200+ is already slightly bottlenecked by even last generations ATI x850xt.

The highest he could go with that processor and not reach any bottlenecks is at most a x1650 or a 7600. Anything higher and he may still see slight performance gains only because of gpu architecture, gpu speed, and gpu memory and pipelines etc etc, but he will still be capped by his meager cpu performance.

I see that you have an Athlon 3200+ and I know you may be trying to defend it, but any true gains that the processor may see would only be for the gpu architecture itself. The bottleneck would still exist because the processor can only go so fast and could not keep up with a stellar card such as the x1950pro.

He would be better to think of how not to waste his money on a primitive system such as his. He too should just wait.

Anywayz, best of luck to the OP, I gtg to work.
December 4, 2006 6:35:30 PM

Well, I guess I'll just have to dig myself out of my deep hole next summer, but I don't anticipate it being too much difficulty :p 

I'm going to spend $250 on this AGP card NOW, and play all my games for the next 6 months.

Next summer when the quad core cpu's and mobo's have came down in price and the dx10 cards have had a chance to come out, THEN I'll upgrade...

We'll see who's system has the staying power. By waiting an extra 6 months, I really feel you could build a system that could last you much longer than any system you try to build now.
December 4, 2006 6:40:43 PM

Quote:

First of all, an 8800gtx is not a cpu...its a gpu.
Second of all trust me, he will be bottlenecked by that x1950pro....The 3200+ is already slightly bottlenecked by even last generations ATI x850xt.

The highest he could go with that processor and not reach any bottlenecks is at most a x1650 or a 7600. Anything higher and he may still see slight performance gains only because of gpu architecture, gpu speed, and gpu memory and pipelines etc etc, but he will still be capped by his meager cpu performance.

I see that you have an Athlon 3200+ and I know you may be trying to defend it, but any true gains that the processor may see would only be for the gpu architecture itself. The bottleneck would still exist because the processor can only go so fast and could not keep up with a stellar card such as the x1950pro.

That doesn´t really matter. Some component will always bottleneck another. In his case the 1950 will not live up to its full potential, which is not really a big deal. It´ll still outperform the 7600GT and probably the 7900GS (not overclocked). Considering the price of the card, i´d say it is still a good choice for an upgrade. Especially considering that he could easily remove that bottleneck later on with a newer processor. The green chips are the cheap chips again.


Quote:

He would be better to think of how not to waste his money on a primitive system such as his. He too should just wait.

Primitive?

That´s either a poor choice of words or outright insulting. A 3200XP is far from primitive.
December 4, 2006 6:45:37 PM

Quote:
I still think spending $250 on your existing AGP platform and waiting a LITTLE LONGER will be a wiser move than jumping on the pci-e 1.0 bandwagon at the end of it's life...


You just burried yourself in a deep deep hole.

AGP < PCI-E

Agp is dead...not worth paying any money for. There is no future for it and wasting any money on anything that is agp is just pointless.
PCI-E is not even close to being at the end of it's life and like Slobogob said, we have yet to even scrath the full bandwidth potential of pci-e 16x.
4745454b said it well....cept for the fact that the Athlon 3200+ will bottleneck the x1950pro

Pci-e 2.0 is backwards compatible with current pci-e so if the man boguht a video card...that was agp...he would be sol as far as options go.

If the man bought pci-e he could use it in all motherboards for the next couple years and he could pair it with a new videocard and take advantage of physx. That in itself is totally worth it.

@melarcky
Quote:
Actually I doubt that the CPU IS TOO weak.. yes it could use an nice upgrade but the CPU isn't a GF8800GTX


First of all, an 8800gtx is not a cpu...its a gpu.
Second of all trust me, he will be bottlenecked by that x1950pro....The 3200+ is already slightly bottlenecked by even last generations ATI x850xt.

The highest he could go with that processor and not reach any bottlenecks is at most a x1650 or a 7600. Anything higher and he may still see slight performance gains only because of gpu architecture, gpu speed, and gpu memory and pipelines etc etc, but he will still be capped by his meager cpu performance.

I see that you have an Athlon 3200+ and I know you may be trying to defend it, but any true gains that the processor may see would only be for the gpu architecture itself. The bottleneck would still exist because the processor can only go so fast and could not keep up with a stellar card such as the x1950pro.

He would be better to think of how not to waste his money on a primitive system such as his. He too should just wait.

Anywayz, best of luck to the OP, I gtg to work.
OK first of all I totally agree about the whole PCI-Exprss Vs AGP
We are totally on the same side

Secondly ... I know the GF 8800GTX is a GPU not a CPU it was just a typo after all I know that much

Thirdly I couldn't give a crap about defending my CPU I know its getting a little old... But I am just giving him advice that I believe is true.... But if I had the chance to upgrade I would do it in a heart breat... There is no point to defend Hardware.... Its just Hardware after all
December 4, 2006 6:49:25 PM

Quote:
Go PCIe. Just compare the prices of AGP cards to their PCIe counterparts. Getting a new board might be a little more expensive, but buying an AGP card is like throwing away money.


pfffft... I beg to differ. I plan to buy the sapphire x1950 pro AGP (512 megs ram) for my athlon 3200 system, and here's why...

pci-e 2.0 should be out by first quarter 2007, and with the new quad core CPU's being introduced, the whole industry will be changing very rapidly again.

spend the $250 on a GREAT AGP card, and wait another 6 months to a year. All these people telling you to convert to pci-e NOW will eat their words and be upgrading again themselves next summer!As far as I know, there has been no announcement on the release of PCIe 2.0.
December 4, 2006 7:03:00 PM

"We'll see who's system has the staying power. By waiting an extra 6 months, I really feel you could build a system that could last you much longer than any system you try to build now."

So in 6 months when you see what else is coming out, you going to wait another 6 months for that? The industry moves too fast as it is...there is no waiting for something that's going to stick around. Nothing sticks around. Wait for PCI-E 2.0, wait for AMD Quad-cores, wait for Intel's 45nm processors, wait for Infinion's 3-D transistors to slip its way in to future processors, wait for...what? This is one of the fastest moving hobbies. If you're the type to wait, you'll be disappointed because there's always something better on the horizon.

Just suck it up and buy now IMO.
December 4, 2006 7:05:29 PM

Quote:
As far as I know, there has been no announcement on the release of PCIe 2.0.


Here we go. Looks like sombody got to wait for quite a while.

PCIe 2
December 4, 2006 10:57:08 PM

I agree with Pauldh's original advice in this topic.

For all you people insisting on upgrading to pci-express, I don't see such a clear choice. Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's my reasoning:

Let's say the OP could buy a AGP x1950 pro for $250 OR a s939 mobo with a pci-e x1950 pro for $250. You get the same performance for the same price, except that you have a pci-express motherboard now. What's the big difference? It's not like you can use the pci-express vid card ANY LONGER than the agp one. AND when you want to get an even better graphics card like the 8800gtx, are you going to stick with the s939 mobo with the 3200+? No, you will buy a completely new system, JUST like if you had originally stuck with AGP. Am I right or am I wrong?
a c 176 U Graphics card
December 5, 2006 4:53:14 AM

Yes and no. At least if you had the PCIe motherboard, you have the CHOICE of upgrading everything else. By staying closer to the front of technology, you have more choices and options then if your stuck nearer the back...
December 5, 2006 5:37:40 AM

Yes you would have the choice of upgrading more, but it would be a bad idea to waste money on upgrading that cpu. Whether you stuck with agp or bought a 939 mobo, you would probably buy a Conroe mobo after that.

Assuming it costs the same amount to get the AGP gpu VS pci-express mobo +similiar gpu (hard to get), I imagine one advantage of going pci-express would be that it's easier to sell off your old pci-e stuff rather than your super old agp stuff when you buy a new system.
December 5, 2006 5:41:52 AM

Quote:
Hi i am planing for buying a graphics card for my system, right now its based on agp motherboard i was wondering to change the board and get a pci-x card under 250 $. or should i buy an agp card i am confused !!! my system specification are...

AMD ATHLON 64 3200+
MSI NVIDIA 3 PLATINUM
KINGSTON 1GB RAM
ASUS FX 5200 128MB GRAHPICS


PLZ can anyone help what should i buy a new motherbaord and pci-x card or an agp card, plz also refer which cards to buy...


Buy a cheap PCI-E capable motherboard (Around $50) and buy an x1950pro PCI-E for around $200.
a c 176 U Graphics card
December 5, 2006 7:01:22 AM

First, lets state the obvious. You can not get rid of bottlenecks. It is impossible. There will always be something holding your system back. It might be the amount of memory you have, or your harddrive, or something else. The simple fact is there will always be a slowest thing in your computer. Even if you could somehow have the perfect balance of hardware in which everthing moves at the same speed, I would aruge the software will become the new bottleneck. (for example, you could move to 4GB of system memory, but then windowsXP will prevent you from being able to use it due to its memory allocations.)

Second, yes. A faster CPU will allow a GPU to render more FPS. I doubt this is news to anyone. Check this out. The fastest none FX CPU can output 10FPS more then the 3200+ (look up to the 3800+, none x2 model.) This is an extra 13% more. Yes the faster CPU will get you more, but its not like the 3200+ will make the video card able to render only 25FPS. I belive this is a good idea to upgrade because he is simply moving from one bottleneck to another.

Currently, his GPU is (no offence OP) WEAK. An 5200 is simply to slow of a GPU to handle anything recent. By getting a new video card, he WILL be able to handle recent games. He will enjoy using it, then upgrade his CPU when money permits. (unless a new bottleneck presents itself.) I would not urge him to buy a new CPU first, nor would I urge him to upgrade them together. The new GPU will allow him to game, while waiting for newer better CPUs to be developed.
December 5, 2006 7:36:18 AM

Quote:
however, upgrading from AGP to pci-e NOW still makes little sense to me. Sure, if you had asked me this last year at this time, I would also have advised to upgrade to pci-e. But again, with quad core cpu's and pci 2.0 around the corner, wouldn't it make more sense to wait just a little longer? Upgrading to pci-e right now seems just a little too late in my opinion...

I still think spending $250 on your existing AGP platform and waiting a LITTLE LONGER will be a wiser move than jumping on the pci-e 1.0 bandwagon at the end of it's life...

I'm missing something here. So he can spend $250 on an agp card, or $250 on a PCI-E card & mobo and will get approximately the same performance level. And PCI-E 2.0 is going to be backwards compatible. Whether it is released in 6/9/12 months.

Make it really simple for me. Why on earth would he buy an agp card?
December 5, 2006 9:47:04 AM

Hi thanx to all for answering my question but i am still stuck, some are talking of buying an agp, some are talking of buying pci-e and some are saying to wait for pci-e 2.0 and i am really more confused than before. plz help me out i can afford buying below 280 $. thanx to all.....
December 5, 2006 10:35:10 AM

Its just options.

1. wait.
2. sell your mainboard, buy a similar or better one with PCIe and get the PCIe card
3. just get the AGP version.

I favor option 2.

If i were you i´d take a calculator and start doing some math on what solution is cheapest. Then i would look at what would bring the greatest benefits.

Since you want a new GPU, i wouldn´t wait no more. PCIe comes at Q3 2007 that´s almost a year until it happens. I doubt you want to wait that long.
Buying the AGP version is the lazy way of going. You pay extra, but all you need to do is, plug in that beast an fly.
Buying a new PCIe is a bit of a hassle but you end up with a little better product (regarding the GPU) that can still be used once you upgrade the rest of your machine (which AGP can not!). In addition you would get a new mainboard. That´s an opportunity.
December 5, 2006 11:30:28 AM

Alright every one i have decided to buy an pci express card and a new mainboard but which one to buy?? i am thinking of buying msi diamond nx7600 gt 256mb. is that okey or should i go for some others... plz also tell me a good motherboard for pci-e strictly under 100$. thanx..............
December 5, 2006 11:56:42 AM

why is everyone hailing pci-e 2.0 to be the second coming here? pci-e 2.0 will have no effect on the market what so ever. its nothing revolutionary and will deliver the exact same performance as pci-e x16. no one should be waiting or making their decision based on pci-e 2.0 as it will not overly benefit a single or sli/xfire setup. pci-e 2.0 is more marketing than anything, first of all we don't really need anymore bandwidth and its main benefit, the extra power it can deliver, doesn't even satisfy the needs of the next generation of even more power hungry cards.
a b U Graphics card
December 5, 2006 12:10:31 PM

He is buying now, not in the future. I'm kinda surprised by this wait for PCI-e 2.0 talk too.

If I were him, I'd go X1900GT or 7900GS as they offer alot more performance for a few more bucks. But if he wants to keep it way down under $200 with a mobo , then a 7600GT for under $120 is a good option. Still would run about the cost of an AGP 7600GT. It might be future integrated performance, but it''s the best for that price now, and It beats a X1600XT. ;) 
a b U Graphics card
December 5, 2006 12:22:38 PM

I have used quite a few of the MSI K8N Neo 4's. The Neo 4F is the cheapest of that line, based on NF4. Performance would be the same, just less features. Anyway, I have found them to be good, stable, issue free motherboards. Otherwise if you want a different brand, look for an NF4 or NF4U mobo with good ratings.

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?Product...

Paired with a X1900GT
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1681...

or 7900GS if you prefer NVidia:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1681...

And for under $250 you have a nice setup. If you go 7600GT, just make sure it's down in the $100-120 range as the 7900GS for $140 AR is much better for a bit more money (if you don't mind rebates). If you hate rebates, then for $50 more than a 7600GT, the X1900GT would be my choice in getting the most for the money.

ANd again, to be honest, I can't believe people are further confusing you with "Wait until PCI-e 2.0" when you could be enjoying better gameplay now for a very reasonable pricetag. Amazing just what people want to stretch your budget and timeframe out to, as if you should keep on gaming on an FX5200 until then. :roll: You will be blown away by any of these 3 cards compared to the FX5200.

To me it comes down to do you want to bother installing a new mobo and doing an OS install? If not, buy the X1950 pro AGP. If you are fine with doing that work, then you can get the same performance for the same money going with the PCI-e mobo and X1900GT. And then sell your old mobo. Either option is fine now that there is an AGP option of that caliber. If you don't replace cards often, then stay with the AGP version until you do a whole new rig. If you want to upgrade frequently, like say to an 8800GTS when prices come down, go PCI-e now and be ready for that. But don't keep gaming on an FX5200 while waiting for something new to appear.
December 5, 2006 12:39:29 PM

Quote:
Alright every one i have decided to buy an pci express card and a new mainboard but which one to buy?? i am thinking of buying msi diamond nx7600 gt 256mb. is that okey or should i go for some others... plz also tell me a good motherboard for pci-e strictly under 100$. thanx..............


Again, this depends on what you need. The ASUS A8V-VM seems to be quite popular, is socket 939 and has a PCIe x16 slot. If you want to go nvidia maybe the MSI K8N Neo4-F will do. Basically any 939 mainboard with a full PCIe 16x slot will do.

I would go cheap. As cheap as it get. But that´s just me. :lol: 

edit: Reading what Paul just posted, i´ve to agree.
December 5, 2006 12:42:24 PM

AGP's been dead for a while now. take it from someone who just changed over with a new PC build, its worth it to go for the PCI-E. No sense in wasting money on something you will not be able to use when you upgrade the processor at some point, at least PCI-e you will be able to use in a new system when you decide to upgrade.
December 5, 2006 12:54:04 PM

Quote:
I'm missing something here. So he can spend $250 on an agp card, or $250 on a PCI-E card & mobo and will get approximately the same performance level. And PCI-E 2.0 is going to be backwards compatible. Whether it is released in 6/9/12 months.

Make it really simple for me. Why on earth would he buy an agp card?


Well, I'll try - but not many agree with my reasoning so take this with a grain of salt ;) 

First off, $250 to upgrade to a pci-e card and mobo that will outperform his existing system?? maybe _I'm_ missing something here!!

$200 pci-e card
$200 mobo/cpu combo
$100 RAM
$100 power supply (if he's got AGP system, chances are he'll have to upgrade PS too)

$600 to upgrade to a system that wouldn't be much faster than if he upgraded his vid card on his existing system. Maybe I'm wrong on this, you guys tell me - but what kind of a score would he get with 3dmark2003 with his current system + a decent agp card, compared to a bugdet PCIe system?"

Now some have said that his CPU would bottleneck the performance of a 1950x card, so if that's the case, forget the 1950x card go for something even cheaper. If a used $100 vid card from ebay will let him play all his games at 1280x1024 resolution with 4x antialiasing at high settings, why spend more than that to upgrade?

Anyone who still has an AGP system is NOT a bleeding edge gamer - he's obviously someone who tries to get as much use from his system as possible. That's why I recommended "riding the wave of technology" and buying next summer. With all the goodness coming out soon (quad core, dx10 cards, and pci-e 2.0) the slightly older technology will get cheaper fast, and I predicted by next summer his money will be better spent.

That's just my prediction, nothing more. That's as simple as I can explain my reasoning, and if you still don't agree with me, fine, but you ain't gonna change MY mind!

I'm buying that Sapphire 512 x1950 pro agp card for $250 next week, and next summer I'll see what $1000 can get me. By waiting 6 months, i predict I will get an extra 1.5 years out of my system because I too, try to make my system last me as long as possible. I don't need crazy resolutions with 200 fps to enjoy my games...
December 5, 2006 1:34:01 PM

Quote:
why is everyone hailing pci-e 2.0 to be the second coming here? pci-e 2.0 will have no effect on the market what so ever. its nothing revolutionary and will deliver the exact same performance as pci-e x16. no one should be waiting or making their decision based on pci-e 2.0 as it will not overly benefit a single or sli/xfire setup. pci-e 2.0 is more marketing than anything, first of all we don't really need anymore bandwidth and its main benefit, the extra power it can deliver, doesn't even satisfy the needs of the next generation of even more power hungry cards.


Words of gold here.

here is what you need to know.

AGP is dead vary dead future of upgrading to a super high end looks vary grim.

PCI most likely wont be replaced for many many years.

who actualy cares if pcie 2.0 is coming out its not changing anything he needs to care about.

Get the pcie mobo and a pcie card your upgrade path just gets wider and not to mention all the new hardware the new board can use your old one simply wont.


Reading this i can see why hes so confused alot of people keep telling him things he doesnt need to know or worry about.

IMO there is simply no reason whatso ever to get a agp card over a new motherboard with pcie i cant think of one aside pure lazyness. Or wanting to pay alot more for a agp version of a card that will alwyas be in limited runs because seriously the ammount of people still using agp is getting even more scares by the week.
December 5, 2006 1:48:53 PM

Quote:
First off, $250 to upgrade to a pci-e card and mobo that will outperform his existing system?? maybe _I'm_ missing something here!!

$200 pci-e card
$200 mobo/cpu combo
$100 RAM
$100 power supply (if he's got AGP system, chances are he'll have to upgrade PS too)

$600 to upgrade to a system that wouldn't be much faster than if he upgraded his vid card on his existing system.

Ahhhh, I see the misunderstanding here. You dont have to upgrade the cpu/ram/psu. The only thing he should have to upgrade is the motherboard. Im based in the UK- so I cant comment on US prices, but a good PCI-E motherboard for Athlon 3200+ should cost around £40 (say $80). He can spend the rest on the gpu. We dont know what psu he has- so your right for bringing it up- but moving from agp to PCI-E shouldnt require a psu upgrade (unless he is already pushing the capability of what he has).

Quote:
Anyone who still has an AGP system is NOT a bleeding edge gamer - he's obviously someone who tries to get as much use from his system as possible. That's why I recommended "riding the wave of technology" and buying next summer. With all the goodness coming out soon (quad core, dx10 cards, and pci-e 2.0) the slightly older technology will get cheaper fast, and I predicted by next summer his money will be better spent.

Im not sure that your right here. In recent years, you almost certainly would be; but C2D & dx10 are here now. They have no competition in the market- so I cannot see either Intel or NVidia coming under price pressure in the next 6 months. R600 may change the picture- and the mid market offerings from both gpu manufacturers are not yet defined. So you are waiting for something that may, or may not, be better than what is currently on the market- but probably wont be significantly cheaper than it is now.

And as for the AGP & not a bleeding edge gamer comment- I am still running an AGP gpu on a P4 3.2 (ouch). But, it is primarily a gaming rig... I just have to limit settings & resolutions to what is playable (1280x1024). It is only higher than that when your more powerful gpus (and especially cpus) become important.

Quote:
By waiting 6 months, i predict I will get an extra 1.5 years out of my system because I too, try to make my system last me as long as possible. I don't need crazy resolutions with 200 fps to enjoy my games...

In that case, you should definitely be in the pci-e mobo & gpu upgrade path. Stick in a little more ram- and you can wait a year or so before upgrading the same system to dx10.

Incidentely, my P3.2 agp is going to get a new lease of life in March- Id upgrade sooner- tax reasons prevent me :( - its going to be born again as an HTPC (for the mrs & kids). I see it lasting in that form for another 3/4 :) 
December 5, 2006 1:51:16 PM

Quote:
pfffft... I beg to differ. I plan to buy the sapphire x1950 pro AGP (512 megs ram) for my athlon 3200 system, and here's why...

pci-e 2.0 should be out by first quarter 2007, and with the new quad core CPU's being introduced, the whole industry will be changing very rapidly again.

spend the $250 on a GREAT AGP card, and wait another 6 months to a year. All these people telling you to convert to pci-e NOW will eat their words and be upgrading again themselves next summer!


Hmm... Lets see.....AGP is hamstrung to the older and inferior socket 754 which is maxed out at 3400 (Intel users have more options). Memory? you're stuck with older DDR3200. So, you will be stuck with a X1950 video card with fantastic performance which will be bottlenecked by slower memory and limited CPU choices. Just as their will never be a Beatles reunion, AGP will never make a comeback. AGP is dead-end technology!!!!!!!

How do I know these things? I'm currently stuck with a 3400 AGP setup and foolishly invested into a x800 AIW recently. You will never understand how foolish you are until you need to purchase another stick of DDR memory at a premium price above and beyond DDR2. AGP video cards are more expensive than their PCi counterpart, and do not perform as well. The only thing you save money on is the motherboard, which are obsolete anyway. However, next month they may be charging an arm and a leg because of retro-grouches such as myself that refuse to invest in technology that has a clear upgrade path.

AGP, socket 754, and DDR are all obsolete! Investing in this technology is throwing your money away!!!!!!!
December 5, 2006 1:57:19 PM

Quote:
You get the same performance for the same price, except that you have a pci-express motherboard now. What's the big difference?


Your CPU may not work with the new motherboard.
Your RAM may not work with the new motherboard.
Your new motherboard might not have enough PATA connectors.
Your PSU might not support PCI-E, though you can get adapters to go from a couple of molexes if you have any to spare.
Your new cheap motherboard may not have enough PCI slots for your other hardware.
Your finicky hardware-intensive software might not work with the new cheap motherboard due to driver incompatibilities or plain old cut-price design.
OEM versions of Windows XP may not activate if you swap the motherboard; theoretically they're tied to the motherboard you install them on.

Other than that, not a lot.

Certainly no-one should be building a _NEW_ AGP system today from scratch, even if motherboards are available. But there are potentially a lot of extra costs over the naive 'just swap the motherboard and graphics card' idea for older systems where you don't want to do a complete replacement.
December 5, 2006 2:21:11 PM

Quote:
You get the same performance for the same price, except that you have a pci-express motherboard now. What's the big difference?


Your CPU may not work with the new motherboard.
Your RAM may not work with the new motherboard.
Your new motherboard might not have enough PATA connectors.
Your PSU might not support PCI-E, though you can get adapters to go from a couple of molexes if you have any to spare.
Your new cheap motherboard may not have enough PCI slots for your other hardware.
Your finicky hardware-intensive software might not work with the new cheap motherboard due to driver incompatibilities or plain old cut-price design.
OEM versions of Windows XP may not activate if you swap the motherboard; theoretically they're tied to the motherboard you install them on.

Other than that, not a lot.
Yea, but thats a really stupid statement. Its like saying if he goes out blindfolded and buys parts at random they may not be compatible- of course they may not be if he doesnt do the research first.

But, Id be surprised if he doesnt get ticks on all the right boxes. And help on selecting are what these forums are for, right?
December 5, 2006 2:22:05 PM

Cant say i ever ran into one of those problems upgrading.

Though that windows one is exactly why ill never use the cd from the box on any computer i have. It will stay wrapped up while i used a cracked copy of windows and the real key.
December 5, 2006 2:27:38 PM

Nice to see the 0.1% worst case scenario.

The CPU & RAM will work with the new motherboard because he won´t buy a cheap motherboard but a matured and thus inexpensive motherboard.

Your new motherboard might not have enough PATA connectors.
Your new cheap motherboard may not have enough PCI slots


That´s just plain stupid or insulting. Either you say that the original poster is to stupid to find a motherboard with an appropriate number of PATA connectors or you are just trying to make something up. The same goes for the PCI issue.

The only interesting points you mentioned are the activation issue of windows XP and a possible PSU problem.
The activation shouldn´t be a problem if he has a license key. And most of the PSU troubles can be resolved with one or two cheap adaptor cables, unless it´s not powerful enough.
December 5, 2006 2:34:44 PM

MarkG,
You can add to your list that if you're going with a new mobo for the future, why would you want to stick with a soon to be discontinued s939?

So, if you want to upgrade your video card: buy a mid range PCIe mobo and video card. Oops - if you're going to buy a new mobo and keep future upgrades in mind, better switch to AM2. Oops, you need to buy new DDR2 ram. Oops, you need a much larger power supply. Hmmm ... it boils down to either building a completely new system or upgrading the AGP card.

If the guy wanted to build a new system, he would be best advised to go all the way instead of just a PSIe/s939 mobo. If you have components that aren't totally obsolete, then why not get the use out of them for another year or so? The 3200+ isn't obsolete, DDR isn't obsolete, and even though AGP isn't dead, there's still plenty of life left. If you want bleeding edge, go all the way. IMHO - if you just want a new video card go ahead and spend the $250 and stick with what you've got while the new processor wars and Vista/DX10 stuff shakes out.
December 5, 2006 2:44:42 PM

Quote:
MarkG,
You can add to your list that if you're going with a new mobo for the future, why would you want to stick with a soon to be discontinued s939?

So, if you want to upgrade your video card: buy a mid range PCIe mobo and video card. Oops - if you're going to buy a new mobo and keep future upgrades in mind, better switch to AM2. Oops, you need to buy new DDR2 ram. Oops, you need a much larger power supply. Hmmm ... it boils down to either building a completely new system or upgrading the AGP card.


Your mind is a very scary place. And obviously good reasoning has left long ago. You didn´t look at what he wants. He wants a new GPU. If he gets a new GPU for 250$ he can throw it away once he moves to a new setup.
If he gets a new mainboard with PCIe which can accomodate all of his old components, he´ll be able to buy a PCIe card which he can use with a new system once he decides to do a full blown upgrade.
Since both options almost cost the same, it would be unreasonable not to go PCIe. If you want me to, i can explain why it could be quite interesting to have a PCIe GPU in 2007.

Quote:

If the guy wanted to build a new system, he would be best advised to go all the way instead of just a PSIe/s939 mobo. If you have components that aren't totally obsolete, then why not get the use out of them for another year or so? The 3200+ isn't obsolete, DDR isn't obsolete, and even though AGP isn't dead, there's still plenty of life left. If you want bleeding edge, go all the way. IMHO - if you just want a new video card go ahead and spend the $250 and stick with what you've got while the new processor wars and Vista/DX10 stuff shakes out.

And why shouldn´t he do exactly that with the difference of having a newer PCIe board that will let him extend the time he doesn´t need to upgrade again? Is there any good reason to waste more money? :?:
December 5, 2006 2:55:08 PM

Boy, this forum is a fun one.

Interesting issue, AGP vs PCI-e. And what makes it more interesting is the price point of ~$250.

$250/6months = >$40/month just on hardware to play video games. I know my perspective on this, but does that make financial sense to you?

I think the right answer to this problem is to, as others have said, "ride the wave" a little longer - not because I think you need to wait for new technology or anything, mind you. You just need more money.

If you had come to this forum and been like, "I have $600 and need better graphics!" it would be a no-brainer PCI-e. This PCI-e mumbo jumbo is silly. The interface is faster than it needs to be already. Don't bother waiting on that.

As others have mentioned, AGP is dead. That's correct (even though I still use a GeForce2MX in my old Barton 2500+ comp). However, I dunno what the rest of your build looks like, but if it is as some have speculated (168 pin RAM, IDE HD, pre-ATX 2.0 standard, pre-AM2 slot), it doesn't make a great deal of sense to try to upgrade with just $250, as that excludes a lot of important things, like 240 pin RAM or a new PSU, etc.

If you're not limited by these factors (which I'm almost certain you are, since you don't have an AM2 chip), then no question, upgrade to PCI-e.

If you do have those limitations, it may make a little more sense to buy a better AGP care (but not a lot more sense).

But the best answer is to wait until you have a few more dollars to spend, and just upgrade the whole thing. Nice processor, nice motherboard, and good graphics. And, provided you get one of the up-to-date chip slots (AM2 or LGA775), you should be able to upgrade again on the motherboard you buy and do more piecemeal stuff.

Of course, you need to weigh the options to consider what's best, but as long as you're getting >30fps on your fav. games, suck it up for another month or two and then pick out the best system for what you need.

Good luck.
December 5, 2006 3:02:30 PM

Quote:

If you do have those limitations, it may make a little more sense to buy a better AGP care (but not a lot more sense).

If that were the case upgrading the graphic would be next to hopeless anyway. I mean, a computer with no DDR/DDR2, that´s pretty old stuff.
December 5, 2006 3:28:58 PM

Quote:
MarkG,
You can add to your list that if you're going with a new mobo for the future, why would you want to stick with a soon to be discontinued s939?

So, if you want to upgrade your video card: buy a mid range PCIe mobo and video card. Oops - if you're going to buy a new mobo and keep future upgrades in mind, better switch to AM2. Oops, you need to buy new DDR2 ram. Oops, you need a much larger power supply. Hmmm ... it boils down to either building a completely new system or upgrading the AGP card.


Your mind is a very scary place. And obviously good reasoning has left long ago. You didn´t look at what he wants. He wants a new GPU. If he gets a new GPU for 250$ he can throw it away once he moves to a new setup.
If he gets a new mainboard with PCIe which can accomodate all of his old components, he´ll be able to buy a PCIe card which he can use with a new system once he decides to do a full blown upgrade.
Since both options almost cost the same, it would be unreasonable not to go PCIe. If you want me to, i can explain why it could be quite interesting to have a PCIe GPU in 2007.

I was being facetious, but you got my point. :lol:  As far as my mind being a scary place ... thank you (I think)!
My thinking is that a mobo is a major upgrade and that if you're going to upgrade to that extent with quality components, then go all the way. Shazahad is in the same dilema as many. He has a system that isn't current first generation but still has life. s939 is on the way out and if he wants to upgrade his processor in the future, it'll be difficult finding the s939 chips. IMHO, it doesn't make sense to replace the platform unless you're going to upgrade all the way to (at the very least), current generation technology with room for upgrades. If staying with AMD, that would mean AM2, or he could go C2D.

At a certain price point, it seems best to understand the limitations and work within them or change the limitations and go all the way
December 5, 2006 3:49:10 PM

This has been a fun thread to read. Interesting to see the PCIe fanbois (upgrade at all costs) out there still shouting about AGP being dead....years later.. :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  Just go play WoW.

Good to see some level-headed users out there to give the poster some good advice. An AMD 64 3200+ is still a very capable CPU and ANY AGP upgrade will do wonders for his casual gaming experience. Not knowing UK prices, a 7800GS or x1900 Pro will be a vast improvement. Heck, even a 7600GS will be fantastic over the 5200.

If DX10/Vista migration will take months to years, there is not overwhelming reason to scap his current rig. It ain't broke. There's no need to throw a reliable mobo out the door. PCIe 2.0 will come around in a year or so. Make a video inerface change then when a number of midrange DX10 cards are available.
December 5, 2006 3:50:39 PM

Quote:

I was being facetious, but you got my point. :lol:  As far as my mind being a scary place ... thank you (I think)!
My thinking is that a mobo is a major upgrade and that if you're going to upgrade to that extent with quality components, then go all the way.


A major upgrade. Maybe we both perceive differently what a major upgrade should be. For me, a major upgrade is, a) if i replace lots of parts or b) if i buy really expensive parts.
A 80 $ mainboard isn´t a major upgrade for me - just a major hassle, since i have to get the old one out and put the new one in. Obviously you define major upgrade by the work that is needed to perform the upgrade. Going by that definition exchanging the mb is a major upgrade.

Quote:

Shazahad is in the same dilema as many. He has a system that isn't current first generation but still has life. s939 is on the way out and if he wants to upgrade his processor in the future, it'll be difficult finding the s939 chips. IMHO, it doesn't make sense to replace the platform unless you're going to upgrade all the way to (at the very least), current generation technology with room for upgrades. If staying with AMD, that would mean AM2, or he could go C2D.
At a certain price point, it seems best to understand the limitations and work within them or change the limitations and go all the way.


His processor is still good. It will still be okay in half a year. His GPU was already bad one year ago. This is not about upgrading his CPU or extending the upgrade path of his 939 platform.
He wants a new GPU. Why buy a 250$ card you can get for 200$ by exchanging the mainboard? If the mainboard costs 80$ the exchanging option is more expensive. A reason not to do it.
But, and that´s what i´m trying to make clear, it´s a big opportunity. First he can get a mainboard that is better than his current one. Even if his current one was a high end mainboard, it is old and the latest mid-range 939 offerings will do better. It gives him the opportunity to improve too. Say he wants more USB connectors. His mainboard got only 2, why not buy one with 4 now? Maybe he wants Wlan onboard? why not get it now? There are plenty of options you gain for those 30$ differences. By selling the old board you even reduce those 30$ to even less. (Yes, i know, it might be 40$ or 50$, but thats not the point).
And then there is the Video Card itself. The age of AGP ends this year. If he buys a overpriced AGP card now, it will die with his system once he upgrades. I recently saw a Vodoo 5500 PCI being sold on ebay for a mere 23 Euros. That beast was the flagship of 3dfx once, but nobody wants PCI GPUS anymore. A PCIe card on the other hand, he can carry over if he makes "the big upgrade" in 6 months. The board he can sell together with the processor, just like his old 939 AGP board.
If you say now, "wait, there´s something coming in 3 months", then he can wait for sure. But during that 3 months he won´t be happy with his gaming experience. And he won´t get those 3 months back.
The only reason i see to stick with AGP is comfort. If the PSU lacks the proper cables and if exchanging the mainboard seems like a lot of work, then, by all means, AGP is the way to go. Just plug it in and be done. I wouldn´t consider that though. But that is my opinion.
December 5, 2006 4:02:00 PM

Quote:


You dont throw cash by the window there is 2 options



Actually there are even more, but let´s take a look at the two options you propose:

Quote:

-upgrade later in summer for the new techonologies and better price/performance/future ratio

Yep, i mentioned that one also. Waiting for the summer seems cool. Especially if you have to live with a fx 5200. I owned one once. I know what those things can do to a grown man. Don´t make me talk about it.

Quote:

-or you buy an AGP card only... dont go pci-e... toms hardware did benchmarks with APG and PCI-e head to head so you guys learn nothing do you ? AGP still able to do the job he needs now (better than throw money by the window).. but if he got time to do, better skip all these old things and go full upgrade in summer all the way to dx10 and shader 4.0 You dont need PCI-e mobo that runs old technologies it must be worth it and the extra performance hell get going to PCI-e with his rig doesnt worth the new mobo.

You´re looking at the PCIe speed. I never said that it would be a problem. Speedwise there is no relevant difference between PCIe and AGP in regard to the cards he´s considering. The gist of this is, again, "wait for something better, cheaper, magical". Do you know the kids tale about the pot of gold or honey at the end of the rainbow?

Quote:

wow show me what pci-e has more than AGP in 2007 when most users gonna run windows xp until 4th quarter 2008. The theorical bandwith of AGP COULD be topped but its peak and not overall bandwith.
Overall AGP still does perform very well cuz not people got a 3000$ computer that would make that AGP card bottleneck. Look at my system and tell me that the same rig using the same card (AGP tho, and supposing there is a x1600xt AGP) could be bottleneck by the AGP card.. LOL

You´re looking at the bandwidth again. I don´t know why, but you´re doing it. I feel a little embarrest. Look elsewhere.

As i said, there´s nothing wrong with the AGPs bandwidth. The only problem that might arise is, that AGP will be gone by 2007 and PCIe will still be there. So if i would buy a PCIe card i still could use it with a new computer in 2007. The AGP card just, well, it collects dust.
But if you want to buy one, please do, it´s your right to do so and i won´t stop you. Heck, you can buy mine and i do the PCIe upgrade[/quote]! 8O
December 5, 2006 4:04:47 PM

Here is my opinion on the whole thing. I own a Socket A system that is quite nice and fast (to me). It suits my needs very well and I play games on it; mainly WoW. A friend of mine has a C2D extreme monster machine and it is faaaast. While his pc may score 10X more in benchmarks than mine, it does not feel 10X as fast.

My setup includes a 6600gt card which isnt too shabby. Basically at this point I will buy a 1950pro agp and effectively 'max out' my system. I can't go any further than that.

I know I am paying a premium on it but that's ok. It's not that I don't want to upgrade the whole thing. But I dont want to go 'cheap'. Next time I upgrade (next year sometime) I am getting top of the line parts and will hold on to them until stuff starts to blow up.

I must note that the upgrade for me makes perfect sence since I DO NOT play the very latest super extreme, super eye-candy, whatever shooter games on my machine. So my top of the line 3-generations ago pc will be great for the time being.

Then again if I were into the latest games and what not, a switch to pci-e would have made sence a long time ago.

To the OP. It really depends on what you need. If you need all that monster power of quad cores and multiple gpus, then a complete overhaul (read-investment) is the way to go. If you don't then maybe refreshing your aging system and keeping it a little longer might make more sence to you. I am just someone who likes to squeeze the dollar out of my products.

My only suggestion would be that if you go pci-e then get something that you will be satisfied with for the long haul. As was mentioned before in this thread, the life of pci-e is nowhere close to being over.

Good luck!.
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