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ATI BS.

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December 7, 2006 3:14:07 PM

I know there are a million threads on the exciting new R600, but when I stumbled on this site, I had to share it with all you forum friends:

http://www.cooltechzone.com/Special_Reports/Insider_Ser...

Anyone else find this hilarious? I mean, I was under the impression that R580 was the X1950's only, and who do you know that owns a X1950? The X1900 did well, but did it "convincingly taking away the performance crown from NVIDIA"? I really doubt it.

Feel free to flame or correct my flawed understanding of this system.
-cm

More about : ati

December 7, 2006 3:54:17 PM

I cant see ATi having taken away anything to nVidia.
But I do see them miserably failing in all fields (-> latest market analysis)
December 7, 2006 3:59:01 PM

Umm Yes the X1900XT/X convincingly took away the crown from nvidia. Even its second range card the 7900GT was beat by either the X1800XT or the X1900GT or now the X1950Pro. In most benchmarks ATi would win while nVidia would win a few games that favor its technology (i.e. FEAR). But ATi not only had the performance but also better prices than most of the top range cards like the ones i mentioned.

Nvidia's saving grace was the 7950GX2 which provided a whole new performance in high resolution(and the term Quad Sli) and even though it sometimes lacked utilization due to the game code it was still accepted as the new high resolution performance king. Also nvidia's SLi solution was for the most part always optimized much better than ATi's crossfire although it has become a little bit more even nvidia still holds the edge on how efficient their sli setups are.

The X1950s only extended ATi's lead in that mid-high end market but still couldn't get the high resolution performance a 7950GX2(in most cases).

Quote from the article you were talking about
Quote:
After convincingly taking away the performance crown from NVIDIA, ATI seems to be on a roll. The R580 was a smashing hit, but the R600 seems to be even more stunning. If our sources are to be believed, then the specifications sheet for the R600 will look something like this:


Even though i think ATi's X19xx generation design was superior to Nvidia's i don't think it was exactly a "smashing" hit and ATi is definitely not on a "Roll". Nvidia still held its own in certain areas like Sli and the super high resolution gaming with the 7950GX2.

As far as ATi being a roll is far from the truth...just take a look at this
article

Nvidia scores dramatic gain in graphics chip market share
Quote:
Tiburon (CA) - Despite its recent accounting woes, Nvidia may have just completed one of the most successful quarters in the firm's history. According to a report released by Jon Peddie Research (JPR) today, the company gained shares in virtually all of the markets it competes in - mainly at the expense of ATI, which suffered heavy losses across the board.


Even though that includes the new 8800 series much of the GPU switch around was in ALL markets,

the most significant as stated being this quote

Quote:
The most significant change in market shares came in the mobile discrete segment: ATI held 75% of that market in Q1 of this year, dropped to 63.1% in Q2 and ended up at just 47% in Q3. Nvidia was on the receiving side and increased its share from 37% in Q2 to 53% in Q3 - which marks the first time that the company actually has the lead over ATI in this segment.


ATi went from 75% to just 47%

Nvidia went from 37% to 53%

That is an astonishing 44 percentage point change in favor of Nvidia So not only did ATi lost its market share but it lost it to the other team
Related resources
December 7, 2006 4:16:06 PM

Without facts to back it up, it's just speculation. People are free to speculate, but they should have said "this is editor's opinion" or something. (I'm not disagreeing with the "performance crown" necessarily). I don't see how they can say that ATI is "on a roll" when they haven't released the R600 and in the meantime nVidia is shipping G80s. Strange.
December 7, 2006 4:22:06 PM

True, true.

Still, ATI seems to be in the lurch and they need to really get on the offensive, instead of reacting to NVidia. I really like ATI, but in this market you need to be agressive to win. Even though ATI has better hardware specs, they all come after NVidia debuts their new technology. Look at the 8800. The R600 may waste the new NVidia chip, but the 8800 is out months (a month?) ahead, showing NVidia on the prowl being the agressive manufacturer.

I wish ATI would try that.
-cm
December 7, 2006 4:30:36 PM

Well, I don't know if you can really use that argument fairly against ATI. Why? Because, if ATI releases R600 and it kicks G80 in the junk, nVidia will then be the one that's behind. Know what I mean? It's all a matter of cycles and when your product is released. Plus, ATI is timing their release with the release of Vista, which might not be a bad move. So, if you have brand loyalty to ATI I wouldn't switch just because of G80 (that's just my opinion though).

That being said, I'm pro nVidia right now, just because they run cooler and suck up less power generally (according to THG the X1900XTX is pretty much the hottest card on the market). Plus, I have used the Catalyst Control Center for a while, and ATI really needs to update it to be as robust as nV control panel. I read about the "known issue" where the control panel is just freaking slow to load, and ATI said "yep, we know about it" and that's about it. Why do they have such bloated software? ARGH!

But, on the other hand, their drivers are a bit more robust and put less load on the CPU than nVidia from what I've read. So, I guess it just depends on your preference (I just have to put that in there so people don't think I'm trying to sway them one way or another).
December 7, 2006 4:34:16 PM

But ATI was NOT the first manufacturer to come out with a DirectX 10 card. That would be NVidia.

Thus I get the "ATI = reactionary" model.
-cm
December 7, 2006 4:40:14 PM

Fair enough. But, you could look at it more like ATI is just sitting back, waiting for the right time to strike. Because DX10 doesn't really matter until Vista comes out anyway. Maybe it's smart to spend an extra couple months researching, delaying launch until Vista.

I tend to agree with you, because it's nice to have the option of buying a DX10-ready card already for gamers who need to upgrade sooner than Vista. I'm just trying to point out that there are 2 sides to every story :D .
December 7, 2006 4:45:21 PM

I see what you mean. Very good point.

But can a company be really forward-looking and agressive if they are "sitting back", for whatever reason?
-cm
December 7, 2006 5:02:05 PM

I'd say it's more like "working their asses off to get R600 ready as soon as Vista ships", but that's just me. And no, that's not a pro-ATI view-that's what I think ANY company in that position should be doing.

If they aren't, though, and we can see that when the R600 launches, then sure, I'll be pissed.
December 7, 2006 5:15:52 PM

Good call. I agree completely.

Now to steer this thread in an entirely new direction:

What do you guys think of <whispered> rumors of AMD/ATI vs. INTEL/NVIDIA?

I think that would be sick... :?
-cm
December 7, 2006 5:33:22 PM

Quote:
But ATI was NOT the first manufacturer to come out with a DirectX 10 card. That would be NVidia.

Thus I get the "ATI = reactionary" model.
-cm

I don't quite agree.
The Xbox 360 GPU, ATI Xenos, can be considered the first (almost) DX10 compatible GPU, with it's 48 unified shaders architecture.
I say "almost", because this chip doesn't have the full feature set of DX10, even though it's way beyond DX9.
Yet, with the Xenos GPU being around 1 year earlier than G80, it's hard to say that "ATI = reactionary".
Quite the opposite, and Sony and its PS3 are going to suffer especially due to the "traditional" GPU that nVidia has offered them.
(link)
(link2)
December 7, 2006 5:37:15 PM

I doubt Intel would ever buy nVidia (they would have problems with anti-trust, i believe).
They could buy 3DLabs instead, which recently got independent from Creative.
December 7, 2006 6:02:08 PM

Now, now... consoles are completely different here. The Xenos is a console GPU and therefore expected to be cutting edge.
And still, it is not true DirectX 10.
-cm

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My mother told me never to start a sentence with "and". She is probably miserable now.
December 7, 2006 6:04:15 PM

Well this thread's a waste of space, but to comment on two of your staments, yeah nV+intel = regulatory headache, and intel already poached alot of 3DLabs IP and engineers, they didn't bother to buy them outright because there's no need, there was a fire sale going on once Creative said they were closing up shop.
December 7, 2006 6:27:45 PM

Quote:
I know there are a million threads on the exciting new R600, but when I stumbled on this site, I had to share it with all you forum friends:

http://www.cooltechzone.com/Special_Reports/Insider_Ser...

Anyone else find this hilarious? I mean, I was under the impression that R580 was the X1950's only, and who do you know that owns a X1950? The X1900 did well, but did it "convincingly taking away the performance crown from NVIDIA"? I really doubt it.

Feel free to flame or correct my flawed understanding of this system.
-cm


Are you a Nvidia fanboy? It's only an article that dated back to April 2006, how can it be ATI BS? Beside, what is the point with releasing a DX10 card now when DX10 isn't available and no game support it? I believe I have read an article on THG saying that G80 isn't selling that much because enthusiast crow is still waiting. There is nothing reactionary or not with either companies if one release the technology first. Your post is a waste of time and you are definitely an Nvidia fanboy.
December 7, 2006 6:33:33 PM

Nope.
I have an X850XTPE in my machine, you fool.
Before that, I had an FX5200 and GeForce MX440 (don't laugh).

I'm not a fanboy. I just read things and I try to make unbiased decisions. I guess, if I have a leaning it is for ATI since they are a bit of the underdog. That does not mean, however, that I will never bash ATI for making what I consider BAD decisions.
-cm

P.S: You can accuse anyone of being a fanboy.
December 7, 2006 6:39:25 PM

Quote:
Are you a Nvidia fanboy? It's only an article that dated back to April 2006, how can it be ATI BS? Beside, what is the point with releasing a DX10 card now when DX10 isn't available and no game support it? I believe I have read an article on THG saying that G80 isn't selling that much because enthusiast crow is still waiting. There is nothing reactionary or not with either companies if one release the technology first. Your post is a waste of time and you are definitely an Nvidia fanboy.
I was wondering if he noticed that it was from April. At that time ATI did have the performance lead with the R580.
December 7, 2006 6:40:01 PM

Actualy i never expect anything to be cutting edge in a console and so far havent been dissapointed in my expectations.

As far as this thread you can look at it as the intel amd thing before the c2d. AMD could have made much much faster cpus then intel could have dreamed but why? what would the point be? to be ultra faster then intel? would that make them more money? no. would anyone really care? not for hte most part. would it cost them alot of money to do something that isnt nessisary? yes.

Do i care if ATI has a dx10 part? why should i? i cant buy anything that uses it so it being out now doesnt matter at all other then to say ATI is trying to keep up with nvidia through bringing out a usless piece of PCB.

I hope they take thier time and do it right and release it when it would actualy matter somewhat.
December 7, 2006 6:42:20 PM

Regardless of whether the 8800 supports DX10 or not it demolishes any current graphics card which alone makes it worth the price if you have the money. So even though everyone complains why did they release it early why did they do this? Well they wanted their next generation out but they couldn't release a card that wasn't DX10 with Vista so close, so whether or not its DX10 or not doesn't matter at this point, the fact that it brings a cpu bottleneck back into the picture is an indication of how powerful it is. That fact coupled with there are going to be very few DX10 titles in the next year proves that the 8800 is a great card and is typical of any other next gen card in the extra performance it delivers.

So quit thinking that its a card that has features we can't even use yet. Think of it as a card that delivers more performance than any other card on the market can, and then some.
December 7, 2006 7:12:51 PM

That's true-or true enough.

And I'm not trying to start another argument here, but it has to be said.

EXCEPT in 64-bit environments. (For the moment, anyway.)

[/endthought]
December 7, 2006 7:13:38 PM

Performance lead, yes.

But "lead"? Just "lead" in general.

Oh well, I'm nitpicking I guess. I think you guys are right about ATI taking their time though. Hopefully their hardware is really great.... Or I shall go on a gun toting rampage!
-cm
December 7, 2006 7:16:40 PM

Quote:
That's true-or true enough.

And I'm not trying to start another argument here, but it has to be said.

EXCEPT in 64-bit environments. (For the moment, anyway.)


Explain.
-cm
December 7, 2006 7:18:14 PM

I skipped the whole thread, but the link he posted is uh... 8 months old. I believe it came out before even the 7950GX2 came out!
December 7, 2006 7:20:17 PM

I know, I know. I wasn't really paying attention. Apologies to all who are going to tell me what a useless post this is.

We are having a good discussion though.
-cm
December 7, 2006 7:20:54 PM

New switch, back to the R600.

I keep seeing in every "review" that it will have 64 shaders. Another one said not to worry, that unlike Nvidias "simple" shaders, these are complex ones that can perform more then one operation per clock. Now I don't know how true any of this is, but I do know (as an ATI fan, not Fanboy) that I'd feel a lot better if AMD/ATI put a few more shaders in there. Perhaps the 512bit memory bus will help it out...
December 7, 2006 7:23:33 PM

Quote:
Now, now... consoles are completely different here. The Xenos is a console GPU and therefore expected to be cutting edge.
And still, it is not true DirectX 10.

Uhhh.. that's why the PS3's nVidia RSX CPU is sooooo innovative? :roll:
Seriously, nVidia has screwed Sony up with their old G70 design.
The PS3 has the horsepower of Cell in the CPU department, but in terms of GPU, it falls clearly behind the Xbox360.
The shader architecture of Xenos is way more advanced than RSX, plus the innovative design with eDRAM does 4x MS FSAA virtually for free.
December 7, 2006 7:24:35 PM

You can wreck an awful lot of havok with good shaders. Remember the X1900XTX has 48 and it can give almost anything (except 8800's) a run for the money. Imagine 64 shaders, with even better optimization.

R600.
-cm

[EDIT]: OMG, IDIOT! It's *wreak*! Ghaah!
December 7, 2006 7:25:36 PM

Quote:
Nope.
I have an X850XTPE in my machine, you fool.
Before that, I had an FX5200 and GeForce MX440 (don't laugh).

I'm not a fanboy. I just read things and I try to make unbiased decisions.

P.S: You can accuse anyone of being a fanboy.

From your posts here, you seem quite reasonable and unbiased.
Then why did you start a provocative and flame-bait thread named "ATI BS"? :?
December 7, 2006 7:26:49 PM

So people read the thread.

I'm sorry, but it works.
-cm
December 7, 2006 7:29:22 PM

Yeah, but such a habit it's a double-edged sword, as you'll find out sooner or later.
Enjoy. :) 
December 7, 2006 7:40:29 PM

Quote:
That's true-or true enough.

And I'm not trying to start another argument here, but it has to be said.

EXCEPT in 64-bit environments. (For the moment, anyway.)


Explain.
-cm

No/crappy drivers for Vista x64 (I don't know if/how well they work/will work in 32-bit Vista...) or XP x64.

Excuse me for not knowing the exact details, as I don't run Vista RC2 or XP x64, nor do I have an 8800GTX/8800GTS, as I'm simply feeling too poor right now-but I'm sure if you ask anyone who has one and has attempted to play virtually any game in a 64-bit environment, you'll hear literally thousands of complaints.

According to the FAQ on Nvidia's website ( http://www.nvidia.com/page/8800_faq.html ), they intend to have Vista drivers ready when Vista comes out. Whether or not that will help XP x64 remains to be seen, I guess.

I honestly don't know what the situation looks like for Linux/Unix, but I can't imagine it's much better, if at all.
December 7, 2006 7:41:19 PM

Plus, it also tends to piss people off when you have flame-bait titles and start flame wars.

Hmm... maybe I should make a new poster on Tom's called flame-bait... I like that. Haha. :lol: 
December 7, 2006 7:43:51 PM

Dude, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but you are totally posting about stuff you know not about. For pity's sake, don't do that please! :p 
December 7, 2006 7:59:36 PM

Ill back you up 100% :D 
December 7, 2006 7:59:55 PM

You're right. I'll go spend $500 on an 8800GTS and $150 on XP x64 just to prove my point to you. [/sarcasm]

Go to Nvidia's forums. Look at their site. Try Google, if you like. There are scads of people who have had a problem with the 8800 series cards and a 64-bit OS-and nowhere is there an updated 64-bit driver to be found.

I don't own a Conroe or an Athlon64, either, but I'm still able to recommend one over the other to people when they ask.

The fact of the matter is that there are problems with those cards and 64-bit operating systems. I don't know what they are-I never claimed to-and furthermore, I'm not sure I even need to know, since I can't afford one anyway. But they're most definitely there, and it is most certainly relevant.

With all of that said, I would hope you don't take my post as attacking you, as that is most certainly not my intent. I don't want to get into an argument here-I just felt it was worth mentioning.

As for your new poster/user...BaronMatrix would be a more appropriate name. Pity it's taken. :wink:
December 7, 2006 8:05:50 PM

Since everyone is still having problems with windows xp 64 bit edition when it comes to drivers i suspect thier issues are mearly driver related. Nvidia is more then capable of getting a driver right just like anyone else. Vista is also so new (can you even buy it yet, is it even out?) that the driver issue well what do you expect in betaware? dont judge nvidia or ati on thier betaware driver issues. Now if its a purly hardware related issue ignore me and move in.
December 7, 2006 8:12:44 PM

Yeah, but R600 shaders can do what, like 4 operations per clock right? That means that their 64 unified shaders are going to be twice as powerful as an 8800 GTX's (unless the 8800 GTX can do multiple operations per clock cycle). Personally, I think the R600 is going to give the G80 a Hell of a run for its money (and I'm really thinking it's going to soundly beat it), and I've used NVidia cards since the GeForce 2 MX like six years ago.
December 7, 2006 8:12:49 PM

I don't expect you to spend money, but I do expect you to spend some time researching. That's all I'm saying. :p 
December 7, 2006 8:19:49 PM

Quote:
Nope.
I have an X850XTPE in my machine, you fool.
Before that, I had an FX5200 and GeForce MX440 (don't laugh).

I'm not a fanboy. I just read things and I try to make unbiased decisions. I guess, if I have a leaning it is for ATI since they are a bit of the underdog. That does not mean, however, that I will never bash ATI for making what I consider BAD decisions.
-cm

P.S: You can accuse anyone of being a fanboy.


I wouldn't consider they wait for a couple months to perfect their card is a bad decision. Remember a while back when NV released the 7800 series that chew every ATI card including the X850series. But then ATI released the X1800 then shortly the X1900 that beat the crap out of every NV card until the 8800.
December 7, 2006 8:24:41 PM

Well...
Yeah.

I'm sorry.
I just want to learn. I know a bit about hardware, but the economics of it are also fascinating.
-cm
December 7, 2006 8:27:04 PM

Remember, NVidia still has the GX2 and SLI. Whether or not they are actually better than the X1900s, lots of people THINK they are.

I'm not sure, but I think the GX2 is better even at really really high resolutions.
-cm
December 7, 2006 8:27:23 PM

Well, I hope you're right about the R600 being awesome. Maybe nVidia would do price cuts on G80 to compete! :twisted:

But, I've said it before and I'll say it again: speculation is useless. It can only lead to "Fanboi Wars" (which is sort of like Star Wars, but replace Princess Lea with nerdy avatars, light sabers with keyboards, the republic with THG, the empire with The Inquirer, and you have a good picture).

(OK, you can speculate all you want, I'm just messing around. Haha) :lol: 
December 7, 2006 8:31:18 PM

I wish I was Princess Leia. Before she got addicted to drugs and made that horrible christmas special.


She's hawt.
-cm
December 7, 2006 8:49:04 PM

look at the date of this article:

December 7, 2006 9:35:52 PM

I didnt even look at it. Seems anymore when it comes to things people like to throw out old data to prove thier points which has nothing at all to do with anything current or to do with the product we will eventualy be buying. Been dealing with the same bs with another guy in another thread who seems to have gone back 4 years to get his data.
December 8, 2006 9:56:12 PM

I'M SORRY!

I DIDN'T CHECK!

<crowd yells "CRUCIFY HIM! CRUCIFY HIM!!>


I promise you guys, I'll check for date from now on.
-cm
December 8, 2006 10:59:13 PM

Can we crucify him now? :twisted:

No, just kidding man. :D  No harm, no foul.
December 9, 2006 12:11:43 AM

*pushs dean aside*

Someone say crucification?
December 9, 2006 12:16:35 AM

<screams as his hands are nailed to the cross of PCB board>

This is getting a bit blasphemous.
-cm
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