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r600 quick Q

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January 2, 2007 11:01:22 AM

Apologies if a similar Q has already been answered.
Long time reader, rare poster

I have a rather archaic pc and have just got a proffesional loan, part of which will be going towards spending £1250ish on upgrading.

I have already decided my main components but the sticking point is the graphics card, i would dearly love the best one available coz its the only time i will be able to afford to upgrade for at least 3 years plus once i qualify i will have little time for gaming

The question is.... as a British person when is the best prediction for a widely available release of r600. I know I will kick myself if it comes out the week after I upgrade if i get an 8800GTX. I read some preliminary stuff in Dec on HExus about a March release and thats too far away but i wouldn't mind waiting till Feb. Theres some talk about late Jan, what is this based upon.

In summary do if I buy an 8800GTX now is there enuff time before r600 for me to shrug off the improvement as an inevitability of pc hardware or should i hold fast.

Cheers guys

PS i game at 1280 x 1024 and i know thats underusing the power but this pc must last for 3 years and it would be nice if icould play at max for the whole time

More about : r600 quick

January 2, 2007 11:35:24 AM

That a tough question. The R600 is scheduled for release in late Jan early Feb so i would say it would be widely available in mid Feb at the latest. But as u game at 1280x1024. There probably won’t be much difference between the 8800gtx and R600 at that resolution. Iv asked the same question as well and i went with the 8800 and i don’t think i will regret it :roll:
January 2, 2007 11:49:33 AM

Thanks very much. I was kinda leaning toward the 8800GTX due to being able to get it probably 2 months earlier and also because i lack another pci express card to last until then.

Will order next day delivery on Thursday as I fingers crossed have Friday off. I think if no new details come up will go for it then.

Intel Core 2 DUO E6600 2.40GHz Retail / Asus P5B Deluxe / 2GB GeIL PC2-6400C4 DDR2 Dual Channel Kit - Bundle
(£512.26)

Zalman CNPS9500-LED Aero Flower (Socket 939/754/478/775) CPU Cooler
(£32.89)

Creative X-Fi Xtreme Gamer Soundcard - Retail £49.99
(£58.74)

Corsair HX 620W ATX2.2 Modular SLI Compliant PSU (CMPSU-620HXUK)
(£99.86)

SpeedLink Medusa SL-8793 5.1 ProGamer Edition (heads too big for Razer headset)
(£42.42)

BFG GeForce 8800 GTX 768MB GDDR3 HDTV/Dual DVI (PCI-Express) - Retail
(£387.74)

Total : £1,178.49 (god i wish that could be in dollars)
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January 2, 2007 11:50:39 AM

The only reason why you might want to wait until the R600 gets released though is to see if Nvidia will drop their prices on the 8800 or not. You might save some money for yourself
January 2, 2007 12:04:55 PM

R600 looks to be a bit faster (if we can trust the early benchmarks). But 8800 will get you going for 3 years ;) . As krisz said, the prices could drop when the R600 comes out so that could mayby help a bit.
January 2, 2007 12:08:07 PM

The hardest part is to wait though :) 
Trust me i know. I had an 8800 GTX and i sent it back because i saw the prices coming down. Right now i am waiting and using a 7300 GS until it is time to get the 8800GTX again. Yes i suffer
January 2, 2007 12:22:37 PM

Where are you getting your parts from?

Anyway, about that bundle deal, it would would be cheaper to get an

Abit AB9 Pro (£90)
2GB pc 5400 (667mhz) ram (£150)
E6600 retail (£200)

Total £440

from www.scan.co.uk

You don't need ddr2 800 for an E6600. DDR2 800 ram has an fsb of 400mhz, while the E6600, at stock clock, has an fsb of only 266mhz.
With the ddr2 667, you could still OC the E6600 to 3ghz without changing the speed of the ram, as this would be a 1:1 fsb ratio. (333mhz*9=2.9ghz)

Secondly, have you seen the prices cuts that will be happening later this year on the Core 2 Duo and Quad? It might be worth waiting for that and possibly getting a quad core for much the same price as the dual core is now.
January 2, 2007 12:32:37 PM

@inshadows, while the 8800 is unquestionably the fastest card out now one of my questions is is it the "best"? I have become aware of some issues involving older games and compatibilty. My research has also indicated that in many cases ATI deliveres better visuial quailty in DVD playback and some games and only a small FPS loss. I have decided for myself to wait for the R600 and mate it with the ATI 3200+600 chipset in crossfire. It will be my first realy hi performance PC so I'm being pataint for a little longer.. :lol: 
January 2, 2007 12:50:10 PM

As your useing £ i presume your in britan. So we will probably haft to wait an extra week or so to get the R600 cards anyway. As when i was looking at the 8800 for the first week they where out they where all eiter out of stock or pre order.
January 2, 2007 12:51:55 PM

ARM Thanks very much for the reply. Was going to buy from overclockers. I chose the motherboard because of the layout, i did consider the AB9 Pro but chose against it because i prefer Asus and i dont like the position of the IDE connecter and i prefer the extra PCI slot, although i concede otherwise the ab9 would be a better choice. THe choice of Ram was based upon the CAS4 and the ability to maintain the FSB synchronously as high as poss. However i will check out scan becaues their retail e6600 is cheaper.

Darkchyld- i have read about the compatibility issues and was hoping that i could play the other games while updates became available. I do prefer ATI for some reason and i see what u mean about the quality.

If i waited to see the winner can any1 recommend a 100 pound graphics card that would at least allow me to run bf2142 @ 1280 x 1024 on whatever settings. My current setup has AGP.

Thanks again guys for the helpsies
January 2, 2007 12:53:11 PM

Quote:
I'm being pataint for a little longer.. :lol: 

The question is will ATI follow Nvidia and release the high end chips first and then the Mid range later or the other way around.
January 2, 2007 1:01:14 PM

Quote:
can any1 recommend a 100 pound graphics card that would at least allow me to run bf2142 @ 1280 x 1024


That's all i play these days as well. It looks a little different after using the 8800GTX and now on the 7300 GS 800x600 res low settings :( 
January 2, 2007 1:05:50 PM

For i would say either a 7900gs £112 or for a bit more The x1950pro £126 either one should run 2142 well

Found both on O/C's
January 2, 2007 1:17:46 PM

Thanks again for all your replies. Not one flaming, thats gotta be a record. have looked on scan, will prob buy all but cooler and graphx card from there. Changed the mobo to the Asus P5N32-E SLI NF680i coz it has 2 pci slots plus a better upgrade path. (although i doubt ill ever gett 2 8800gtx in sli its worth having it as an option if i hit it rich and get a monster monitor).

Asus P5N32-E SLI NF680i SLI £176.24
Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 Retail £198.21
2GB (2x1GB) CorsairTwinX XMS2, DDR2 PC2-6400 (800 CAS 4) £180.53
Speed-Link MEDUSA 5.1 Vibrating ProGamer Headphones £43.11
620W Corsair HX Series Modular PSU £96.35
Creative SoundBlaster X-Fi Xtreme Gamer £56.62
Total £764

An 8800GTX and a CPU cooler brings it up to £1200 which is £50 under budget, but thats just 100 quid for a temporary graphics card and thats given that the 8800GTX drops by 50 quid. Maybe id be better off waiting for the mobo to come back into stock and deciding then.

Apologies for wittering but i wont see this kinda money again for at least 2 years so its a big decision.

IS
January 2, 2007 1:28:29 PM

<From "Napolean Dynamite", with editing>
INSHADOW: "It's a [inshadows sick new PC]."
ME: "It's got shocks, pegs, LUCKY!"

:D 
-cm
January 2, 2007 1:33:32 PM

apologies for the use of the word wittering
January 2, 2007 1:50:07 PM

I give the 8800 series less than 12 months before something else is release to replace it. It's not a "true" DX10 card, so once Vista appears it's performance with DX10 will suffer.
January 2, 2007 1:52:34 PM

Quote:
I give the 8800 series less than 12 months before something else is release to replace it. It's not a "true" DX10 card, so once Vista appears it's performance with DX10 will suffer.

LOL now where did you get that info from?
January 2, 2007 2:02:32 PM

Quote:
I give the 8800 series less than 12 months before something else is release to replace it. It's not a "true" DX10 card, so once Vista appears it's performance with DX10 will suffer.


The 8800 is a true DX10 card, but the drivers haven't been released for DX10 under Vista yet, or they have been released but aren't working properly. There is a bit of an argument going on between Nvidia and Microsoft about this. I don't know what the right answer is.

Either way, if the timeframe of the build can be in Feb, I'd wait until the R600 is released. Like was said earlier, it would feel terrible to buy a 8800 and then find out the following week that the R600 beat the 8800 in the benches, and maybe was a bit cheaper to buy as well.

Neither of these cards will show their true potential unless they are on a Vista machine and running DX10, rather than just speeding up a XP machine on DX9. If Vista is the OS, none of the DX9 cards will run DX10. They might be able to do some things that a DX10 card can do, but not everything.
January 2, 2007 2:07:58 PM

OMG this thread just go hijacked onto the "8800 OMG I DON'T THINK IT IS REALLY THAT GOOD OMG OMG OMG" line...

Enough already.
-cm
January 2, 2007 2:29:47 PM

At least hold on the the R600 benchmarks (proper ones that is) if not the availability before buying the system.
January 2, 2007 2:43:54 PM

I'm not completely sure that there ARE any good R600 benchies. I would say that I need three sites with benchmarks to really believe that the R600 (final form) has been benched. I don't see three sites, I see one. And that one is sketchy.
-cm
January 2, 2007 2:52:38 PM

Precisely - sorry - I was being a little too tongue-in-cheek.
January 2, 2007 3:01:24 PM

Oh.
Sorry for my failure to detect your sarcasm.
Can we still be friends?
-cm
January 2, 2007 3:16:16 PM

Quote:
The only reason why you might want to wait until the R600 gets released though is to see if Nvidia will drop their prices on the 8800 or not. You might save some money for yourself


The only reason? It also will probably be better than the G80s. At least that's what one would expect. It'd suck to come late to the party with an inferior product.
January 2, 2007 3:18:19 PM

Quote:
The only reason why you might want to wait until the R600 gets released though is to see if Nvidia will drop their prices on the 8800 or not. You might save some money for yourself


The only reason? It also will probably be better than the G80s. At least that's what one would expect. It'd suck to come late to the party with an inferior product.
It is not like that did not happened before :?
Intel vs AMD anyone ?
January 2, 2007 3:24:30 PM

See: NVidia FX line, entirety of.
-cm
January 2, 2007 4:03:03 PM

Quote:
See: NVidia FX line, entirety of.
-cm

Yup and that was the child of an awesome merger between Nvidia and 3Dfx kind of like AMD and ATI these days. So i think we should wait and see how that new video card will shape up. So far the quad core CPU sucked from AMD, let's hope the video card will be much better.
January 2, 2007 6:06:31 PM

Thanks every1 especially ARM, krisz and darkchyld. I'm gonna wait for 6 weeks max and buy an e6600, 2 gig of CAS4- 6400, a 620W corsair, an xfi gamer and whatever comes out on top of the graphics battle at that time plus maybe Vista Premium, although thats a discussion for another time. Ill pick a motherboard based upon what graphics card.

Summary...... gonna wait - very thankful
January 2, 2007 6:24:08 PM

Your very welcome i am glad we could help you. :) 
January 2, 2007 8:42:24 PM

its never ending. more cards will come and blow the last away. we as pc gamers must understand that. im a nvidia person. although i admit ati has won the last couple rounds. look at amd x2 vs intel core 2. also think about pent vs 64amd. it will be a constant battle. this is a good thing it makes the other work harder. i think we need more video card companies. yes fx gf steaming pile of poo. dell shipped me a replacement for my old computer and gave me a 5200 instead of my 4200. sais they gave me a free upgrade. yeah right. just do what u think is right. i myself couldnt wait. im to bitter for patience lol. :twisted:
January 2, 2007 9:29:06 PM

Quote:
Intel vs AMD anyone ?


so now it is NVidia vs. AMD? :twisted:

so far I have been checking out the 8800, but have not decided to get one yet. no one has released ANY DX10 benches yet, and with my X1900 cranking away just fine for now, I cant justify the upgrade yet. Sides, I am an early adopter of vista, no flamage please, and currently I cant use an 8800 except in safe mode, yay... now, when DX10 becomes needed or desired, then I might check out the possibility of getting the 8800 or the R600. untill then, I will eagerly await a good DX10 review.
January 3, 2007 2:47:05 AM

Quote:
xfi gamer and whatever comes out on top of the graphics battle at that time plus maybe Vista Premium


<rubs thumb and index finger together>
-cm
January 3, 2007 5:31:09 AM

if i buy it all from overclockers i can pick up vista premium oem for 80 squids. allowing me to use my current xp disk to install my old stuff into a new box and use it as a media centre (although not proper media centre xp). plus its the standard xfi gamer which is 40% cheaper than the fps edition.

I do appreciate it might come out a little more pricey with vista but i'm willing to cut out the new headphones and downgrade the mobo to one of the gigabyte 960 mobos.

Although i could have missed the point of ur post, if so soz.

It is hard to wait but i've been planning this forever and ever and ever.

And finally (just measeured it) an 8800gtx will only just fit in the case

(its like a continueing voyage of discovery, following inadequate research)

IS
a b U Graphics card
January 3, 2007 6:33:48 AM

Quote:
Where are you getting your parts from?

Anyway, about that bundle deal, it would would be cheaper to get an

Abit AB9 Pro (£90)
2GB pc 5400 (667mhz) ram (£150)
E6600 retail (£200)

Total £440

from www.scan.co.uk

You don't need ddr2 800 for an E6600. DDR2 800 ram has an fsb of 400mhz, while the E6600, at stock clock, has an fsb of only 266mhz.
With the ddr2 667, you could still OC the E6600 to 3ghz without changing the speed of the ram, as this would be a 1:1 fsb ratio. (333mhz*9=2.9ghz)

Secondly, have you seen the prices cuts that will be happening later this year on the Core 2 Duo and Quad? It might be worth waiting for that and possibly getting a quad core for much the same price as the dual core is now.


i dont think you get the idea of computers, the ram dont have the fsb, but rather runs in ratio to the cpu fsb, and why limit your self to ~3ghz overclock when he can get the full 3600/1600 top overclock - the average max from a conroe core ;) 

Waiting is BS - if you wait you will never buy, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMETHING BETTER AND CHEAPER
January 3, 2007 2:34:48 PM

Quote:
Waiting is BS - if you wait you will never buy, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMETHING BETTER AND CHEAPER


Not necessarily, my friend. If this guy upgrades his computer once every two years or so, if he had bought an Athlon FX model two years ago he would have enjoyed CPU dominance for... about until the Core 2s came out.

If he bought a X800XT he would have enjoyed superior framerates (although inferior technology) for about six months.

Some components offer dominance for very long periods of time, considering. I firmly believe that the R600 will be flexible and tough enough that it will gain the performance crown and keep it for at least six months, whether it be as it's first permutation or the second or third. It all depends on how forward thinking AMD/ATI is, and after the merger I bet that they are thinking so far forward that they can predict accurately when Sauron will cast the Earth into a dark cloud of evil. The integration of GDDR4 into their boards is especially telling; GDDR4 is the best memory for defeating Orcs.
-cm
a b U Graphics card
January 4, 2007 3:49:39 AM

Quote:
Waiting is BS - if you wait you will never buy, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMETHING BETTER AND CHEAPER


Not necessarily, my friend. If this guy upgrades his computer once every two years or so, if he had bought an Athlon FX model two years ago he would have enjoyed CPU dominance for... about until the Core 2s came out.

If he bought a X800XT he would have enjoyed superior framerates (although inferior technology) for about six months.

Some components offer dominance for very long periods of time, considering. I firmly believe that the R600 will be flexible and tough enough that it will gain the performance crown and keep it for at least six months, whether it be as it's first permutation or the second or third. It all depends on how forward thinking AMD/ATI is, and after the merger I bet that they are thinking so far forward that they can predict accurately when Sauron will cast the Earth into a dark cloud of evil. The integration of GDDR4 into their boards is especially telling; GDDR4 is the best memory for defeating Orcs.
-cm

i repeat THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMETHING BETTER AND CHEAPER
January 5, 2007 6:48:14 PM

I repeat: JUST BECAUSE THERE IS SOMETHING BETTER IT DOES NOT MEAN CHEAPER!
-cm
January 5, 2007 7:43:36 PM

Quote:
I give the 8800 series less than 12 months before something else is release to replace it. It's not a "true" DX10 card, so once Vista appears it's performance with DX10 will suffer.


Appropriate drivers will tell that tail. With each advancement in graphics and software comes utilization advancements.
January 5, 2007 8:01:41 PM

It's not the drivers - it's the design of the card. The info I have is that only a third of the core is given over to DX10 - in effect it's a very powerful DX9 card with some DX10 capability simply because if you made a "complete" DX10 card now without any backward compatibilty with DX9 it's performance would be woeful.

Nvidia know damn well that DX10 games aren't going to appear for at least 12 months, so what they've done is built the fastest card around which "can" run DX10 if required. How well it does it will remain to be seen.

When DX10 games appear, Nvidia and ATI will release cards that are built to run DX10 only - any backwards compatibiliy with DX9 will be handled by the operating system and the driver.
January 5, 2007 8:29:03 PM

Quote:
The only reason why you might want to wait until the R600 gets released though is to see if Nvidia will drop their prices on the 8800 or not. You might save some money for yourself


The only reason? It also will probably be better than the G80s. At least that's what one would expect. It'd suck to come late to the party with an inferior product.
It is not like that did not happened before :?
Intel vs AMD anyone ?

I was thinking '05 and ATI's release of X1800XT, although I guess if you could actually could get your hands on one it probably outperformed the 7800GTX by a small margin.

The other question is that if there are no DX10 games currently released, how much value will be comparing the G80 and R600 against DX9 games and synthetic benchmarks when when it comes out in Feb or March. I assume that if one outperforms the other in DX9 that will carry over to DX10? Not sure.
January 5, 2007 9:16:46 PM

If it's anything like the 7xxx series history, the 8800 should run fine. I'd run a 7800GTX over my current anyday on 9.0c. It will be history if nV pushes a "8850" with GDDR4 as another poster wrote recently. I'd be certain they have a decent idea about what the future holds.
DX10 is looking as though it will be a progression. It's been said that instead of a massive break through, it's looking more like an evolutionary step. My thought is that it's gonna take the next of next generation cards before will see a fully DX10+ enduced enviornment as programers will have to adjust - yeah, even Microsoft. :roll:
Dx10 Vista paired supposively will utilize well and better than 9.0c durring games and gpu intensity (o/s behind games). Say it's so Microsoft 8O
The use of more than once cpu core will also be an astronomical help for any gpu as multiple core cpu's become more mainstream. Right now cpu usage between more than one core is a trade off among core usage, not the strickened duty per core that will come. The advantage of each core being programed to do a specific duty will have a 100% advantage over how XP uses them now. Eventualy multiple core gaming will take full flight taking that 8800 to it's maximum potential.
January 7, 2007 7:00:42 PM

Quote:
I dont think you get the idea of computers, the ram dont have the fsb, but rather runs in ratio to the cpu fsb, and why limit your self to ~3ghz overclock when he can get the full 3600/1600 top overclock - the average max from a conroe core ;) 


Quote:
With the ddr2 667, you could still OC the E6600 to 3ghz without changing the speed of the ram, as this would be a 1:1 fsb ratio.


How else could you put it? I know. Besides which, 2.4 to 3 ghz is fine, when 2.4ghz e6600 WTFPWNZ!? already. We are talking £50 here.

Quote:

Waiting is BS - if you wait you will never buy, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMETHING BETTER AND CHEAPER


Lol, I think this was the beginning of the flame duel. And as I said, 40% garunteed (spelling?) price cuts are no joke.
January 7, 2007 7:46:27 PM

Hey, in response to the original post (im also British) whatever happens when the R600 comes out, the price of the 8800GTX will drop and the R600 will shortly have to follow if it is to be competitive, that is given equal performance.

I have found something that might be of interest to you..

Quote:
The last revision of the prototype chip - upon which a certain "pre-review" is based - also suffers from problems which are serious enough to get another re-spin, sources tell me. This re-spin puts a hold on the launch for another couple of weeks, and now R600 is looking like an early March launch, probably the week before SnowBIT in Hangover. However, AMD/ATI is making severe changes to the whole line up and we can say that this launch, when it happens, will be very, very shocking for the 3D industry.


Im comtemplating buying the R600 too, im just gonna wait as long as it takes. More competitive products on the market = better for the consumer. Its as simple as that, i think you'd be silly to go with the 8800 now because of lack of driver support for Direct-X 10 titles (NO VISTA DX-10 DRIVER!!!!) Which also means performance may not be any good, we just dont know yet.
January 7, 2007 9:15:57 PM

well i appreciate ur help, have chosen to buy now and risk being outdone. but htats always the risk. Gone for an 680i so i can add an SLI in the future. Current pc crashed 10 times today and the saving at the end of the day will only be about 50squids within the next 3 months. Got the best Value i could afford.

THanks again

Chris
January 7, 2007 9:25:09 PM

Ah right if your having problems with your PC atm then its a different story! Theres no more futureproofed card out atm so good choice! Of course theres always the alternative of ordering cheap card atm, maybe a X1950 Pro (from £115) and then selling it on in a couple of months for not much loss and then upgrading. Depends how far your current order has got and how bothered you are. SLI or Crossfire on such high end cards should be unneccessary lol!! Unless you have one of those 30" monitors or something craazy!

Make sure you set up the latest Bios version on 680i ive heard a few problems about SATA Raid corruption, but apparently thats fixed now.

Enjoy :) 
January 7, 2007 9:41:52 PM

You know,one thing that striks me is how many DX10 machines are in the hands of users? How many copies of Vista have been sold to date? For a Game to be "only" DX10 or Vista would be a serious error on the part of the publisher. I mean, how many machines are running DX9.0c and XP now exsist. How many more copies could they sell if it was both DX9 & 10. I'd like to see the R600 too before making a major investment in a new comp. Someone said earlier thatif you wait something is always better and cheaper, to an extent that is true but then something comes along or happens that cements your choice and you DO IT! I'll wait a bit more.. 8)
a b U Graphics card
January 8, 2007 6:55:51 AM

Quote:
I repeat: JUST BECAUSE THERE IS SOMETHING BETTER IT DOES NOT MEAN CHEAPER!
-cm


ummmm have a random example, the Intel 965 EE (netburst based) CPU cost the same price as the EE X6800 and Q6700 processors, twice or more performance, same price (within ~$50) - go figure

companies tend to price there high end stuff at the same price for every new release for high end products
!