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Fake test

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Anonymous
April 22, 2004 9:32:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Discussion on OpenDTV about testing of COFDM an 8-VSB

A report on the MSTV faked test of 2000 and a witness to the REAL test
conducted by Sinclair in 1999

Manfredi, Albert E wrote:
>>>>All of the tests were conducted outdoors.

>>That's very interesting, because the site you're talking about
>>must be the Rosslyn office district, exactly where Linx conducted
>>their tests one year ago (the ones specifically in Rosslyn achieved
>>82.3 percent success, 5' antenna height, no reaiming allowed after
>>the first success). See
>>
>>http://www.linxelectronics.com/pdf/04-08%20LINX%20NAB%2...
>>df
>>

Mark replied...
Sounds the same. These tests were also in Rosslyn at a five-foot
antenna height.

Al...
>>Sounds like 5th gen Zenith < 4th gen Linx? Although you say
>>"indoors" and not just at low altitude, but outdoors. Possibly,
>>a much harder reception environment.
>>

Mark replied...
Where did I say "indoors"? See above. All tests were conducted OUTDOORS.
Those of us who participated in the old Sinclair trials would be hard
pressed to come up with one site that failed.
>>

Al replied...
>>You went indoors, in reinforced concrete and steel buildings, and had
as many transmitters to try to receive?
>>

Mark replies...
We wenr indoors. Again, all of these MSTV tests were OUTDOORS. Some of
us went in reinforced concrete and steel buildings. (reffering to
Sinclair test)

As I'm sure you already know, there was only one transmitter, switched
back and forth between 8-VSB and COFDM.

TTFN,
Mark

Bob Miller writes...

Any test today would find COFDM even futher in the lead over 8-VSB.

More about : fake test

April 22, 2004 11:07:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:o NIhc.6558$e4.4185@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Discussion on OpenDTV about testing of COFDM an 8-VSB

Only a genuine sociopath would continue to post these wild, uncontrolled
inflammatory rants.
Anonymous
April 22, 2004 5:32:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Are you talking about BOB or yourselves. BOB rants and you rant, I am not
sure who the sociopath is.

Richard R.


"David" <davey3@home.com> wrote in message
news:6YSdnb2q8f3DOhrdRVn-hQ@comcast.com...
>
> "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:o NIhc.6558$e4.4185@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > Discussion on OpenDTV about testing of COFDM an 8-VSB
>
> Only a genuine sociopath would continue to post these wild, uncontrolled
> inflammatory rants.
>
>
Related resources
April 22, 2004 11:42:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Yup, I rant.
You and I (and others) post here to discuss our deployment/enjoyment of
HDTV.
Why do you think Bob posts here?


"Richard R" <jwerir@wideopenwest.com> wrote in message
news:D 9idnV15PLJHgBXdRVn-jg@wideopenwest.com...
> Are you talking about BOB or yourselves. BOB rants and you rant, I am not
> sure who the sociopath is.
>
> Richard R.
>
>
> "David" <davey3@home.com> wrote in message
> news:6YSdnb2q8f3DOhrdRVn-hQ@comcast.com...
> >
> > "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:o NIhc.6558$e4.4185@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > > Discussion on OpenDTV about testing of COFDM an 8-VSB
> >
> > Only a genuine sociopath would continue to post these wild, uncontrolled
> > inflammatory rants.
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
April 23, 2004 1:12:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Richard R wrote:
> It is fairly obvious that in mulitpath CODFM
> works better (suburbs, cities, hilly areas).

Strange. I live in a suburb in a very hilly area. Multipath makes most
OTA analog reception intolerable, a fact which the cable company exploited
for years (until their prices went higher than satellite). I'm only 8
miles (and two hills) from the tower.

If multipath broke 8-VSB, I'd expect DTV not to work at all.

Yet OTA DTV here has none of these problems. The only remaining DTV issue
is that the local ABC channel seems to have a directional UHF transmitting
antenna that aims none of their signal westward. Oh, and FOX is still
broadcasting in 480p (but they say that's getting fixed).

Being a semi-rural area, we do have lots of stuff generating the type of
interference that is reported to be likely to break COFDM. Generators,
chain saws, compressors, pumps,... you name it, we have it.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Anonymous
April 23, 2004 1:17:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob probably has his motives, possibly he is just obsessed but more likely
there is some financial gain etc. that he perceives. For all I know he
could be partially right certainly there is some evidence that both methods
have strengths and weakness. It is fairly obvious that in mulitpath CODFM
works better (suburbs, cities, hilly areas). On the other hand long haul
flat plain areas say 50 miles from transmitter 8VSB has an edge when there
is impulse noise. This has been well established for a long time. Most of
the rest of the world uses CODFM (DVB) and they probably have good reasons.

However, the Bob haters only make there own rants or ridiculous claims that
does not further any rational discussion. For that matter what Bob says or
you say has little effect. The FCC is unlikely to change from 8VSB, it
would be politically disastrous at this point. After forcing 8VSB tuners in
TV's and forcing stations to spend the money, I cannot see them making a
change. It makes little difference anyway ==>> I am looking forward to
buying an STB that supports digital cable which of course has little to do
with 8VSB or CODFM. The only reason I have antenna currently is to play
with HDTV. When cable starts to support it, the antenna and 8VSB will be of
little concern. As for mobile TV, the future appears to be satellite not
CODFM or 8VSB

As for Bob, it is sort of like the signs at yellowstone national park. They
telll you not to feed the bears or leave garbage out that will attract
bears. If you feed Bob, he comes back more often.

Richard R.

"David" <davey3@home.com> wrote in message
news:GJmdnd4kpeDrxRXdRVn-hg@comcast.com...
> Yup, I rant.
> You and I (and others) post here to discuss our deployment/enjoyment of
> HDTV.
> Why do you think Bob posts here?
>
Anonymous
April 23, 2004 8:01:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <I4SdnYSP-IAgFxXdRVn-hQ@wideopenwest.com>,
"Richard R" <jwerir@wideopenwest.com> writes:
> Bob probably has his motives, possibly he is just obsessed but more likely
> there is some financial gain etc. that he perceives. For all I know he
> could be partially right certainly there is some evidence that both methods
> have strengths and weakness. It is fairly obvious that in mulitpath CODFM
> works better (suburbs, cities, hilly areas). On the other hand long haul
> flat plain areas say 50 miles from transmitter 8VSB has an edge when there
> is impulse noise. This has been well established for a long time. Most of
> the rest of the world uses CODFM (DVB) and they probably have good reasons.
>
Actually, your statement above isn't quite correct: 8VSB has an edge
when there is impulse noise, even when less than 50miles from the
transmitter. Please be more precise when you make semi-technical
claims. I am actually neutral on the modulation scheme itself, but
when making comparisons I look at the ENTIRE environment.

>
> However, the Bob haters only make there own rants or ridiculous claims that
> does not further any rational discussion.
>
If you take any statement without looking at (and understanding) all
of the previous context, and you make comments against 'Bob haters',
then perhaps you are making judgements out of ignorance. (I
have seen some VERY QUESITONABLE and overly emotional comments
from you, where you make incompetent assumptions -- please
quit judging others.) I doubt anyone 'hates'
Bob, but many people (including me) have proven over and over again
both Bob's technical inaccuracy and also Bob's alterior motives.

If you misunderstand the understandable frustration as 'hatred',
then that perception is likely misguided. If you are an HDTV
lurker (not been involved in HDTV off/on since 1986), and haven't
looked at the entire context of Bob's nonsense (including the
AVS forum stuff), then your judgements aren't necessarily well
balanced.

You'll seldom see my statements as being 'pro-8VSB', but rather
looking at the alternatives. Those who compare 8VSB vs. COFDM
on purely technical basis, then that is also fallacious in the
regulatory/political environment of the US and considering the
'Ferengis' looking to further pollute our public atmosphere with
blip-verts on mass transit.

John
Anonymous
April 23, 2004 9:10:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Mark Crispin wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Richard R wrote:
>
>> It is fairly obvious that in mulitpath CODFM
>> works better (suburbs, cities, hilly areas).
>
>
> Strange. I live in a suburb in a very hilly area. Multipath makes most
> OTA analog reception intolerable, a fact which the cable company
> exploited for years (until their prices went higher than satellite).
> I'm only 8 miles (and two hills) from the tower.
>
> If multipath broke 8-VSB, I'd expect DTV not to work at all.

Current MSTV test of the latest 5th generation 8-SVB receivers show
about a 65% good reception rate. So you are in the lucky 65%. COFDM in
Berlin is receivable with indoor antennas at a 98-99% of the time in the
coverage area. At the NAB conference in Las Vegas Zenith would not use
indoor antennas that they had in their possession though they had large
floor to ceiling windows facing the transmitter site seven miles away.
They used a roof top antenna. Why? Simple an indoor antenna would have
been to risky. Same story they told at the 2000 hearings in DC while we
all watched Sinclair parade around a simple rabbit ears and place it on
the witness table with no loss of signal. If Zenith had tried that with
their Silver Sensor they would have lost reception in an instant.
>
> Yet OTA DTV here has none of these problems. The only remaining DTV
> issue is that the local ABC channel seems to have a directional UHF
> transmitting antenna that aims none of their signal westward. Oh, and
> FOX is still broadcasting in 480p (but they say that's getting fixed).
>
> Being a semi-rural area, we do have lots of stuff generating the type of
> interference that is reported to be likely to break COFDM. Generators,
> chain saws, compressors, pumps,... you name it, we have it.

In OZ they recently did a test where they received HDTV mobile while
driving along the expressway surrounded by other vehicles and trucks
without having any impulse noise problem. And they were using a non
directional omni antenna. Can you even imagine 8-VSB dong that? No.
8-vSB couldn't even handle the multipath with the omni antenna sitting
still.

Again arguing that 8-VSB works because you are in the lucky 65% is not
valid. We all want to use our OTA spectrum to receive DTV OTA. There is
a modulation that permits at least 98% to so receive. It is a crime to
use a modulation that disenfranchises 35% of the population.
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
> Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
> Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Anonymous
April 23, 2004 9:14:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

John

I stil get the distinct impression that you blame people who support COCFM
(like Bob) as delaying the transition or causing problems with the
transition. This is hardly the case. Ther are many regulatory, money,
copyright, tehcnical issues that are causing the rel problem. The
transition probably will not occur for another 4-6 years and only because
the government wants to get the spectrum to sell.

So if you feel that you need to rant about Bob because he is hindering the
transition you are simply wrong.

Richard R.

"John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> wrote in message
news:c6a4fi$2v59$1@news.iquest.net...
> In article <I4SdnYSP-IAgFxXdRVn-hQ@wideopenwest.com>,
> "Richard R" <jwerir@wideopenwest.com> writes:
> > Bob probably has his motives, possibly he is just obsessed but more
likely
> > there is some financial gain etc. that he perceives. For all I know he
> > could be partially right certainly there is some evidence that both
methods
> > have strengths and weakness. It is fairly obvious that in mulitpath
CODFM
> > works better (suburbs, cities, hilly areas). On the other hand long
haul
> > flat plain areas say 50 miles from transmitter 8VSB has an edge when
there
> > is impulse noise. This has been well established for a long time. Most
of
> > the rest of the world uses CODFM (DVB) and they probably have good
reasons.
> >
> Actually, your statement above isn't quite correct: 8VSB has an edge
> when there is impulse noise, even when less than 50miles from the
> transmitter. Please be more precise when you make semi-technical
> claims. I am actually neutral on the modulation scheme itself, but
> when making comparisons I look at the ENTIRE environment.
>
> >
> > However, the Bob haters only make there own rants or ridiculous claims
that
> > does not further any rational discussion.
> >
> If you take any statement without looking at (and understanding) all
> of the previous context, and you make comments against 'Bob haters',
> then perhaps you are making judgements out of ignorance. (I
> have seen some VERY QUESITONABLE and overly emotional comments
> from you, where you make incompetent assumptions -- please
> quit judging others.) I doubt anyone 'hates'
> Bob, but many people (including me) have proven over and over again
> both Bob's technical inaccuracy and also Bob's alterior motives.
>
> If you misunderstand the understandable frustration as 'hatred',
> then that perception is likely misguided. If you are an HDTV
> lurker (not been involved in HDTV off/on since 1986), and haven't
> looked at the entire context of Bob's nonsense (including the
> AVS forum stuff), then your judgements aren't necessarily well
> balanced.
>
> You'll seldom see my statements as being 'pro-8VSB', but rather
> looking at the alternatives. Those who compare 8VSB vs. COFDM
> on purely technical basis, then that is also fallacious in the
> regulatory/political environment of the US and considering the
> 'Ferengis' looking to further pollute our public atmosphere with
> blip-verts on mass transit.
>
> John
>
Anonymous
April 23, 2004 9:53:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

John

You are the one that is always judging. Making comments that you know so
much and that nobody else knows anything.
That you are always right. When you make ridiculous statements it always
true. When other like me refute them we are being emotional and making
incompetent assumptions. Quite frankly I have said it before, but you still
dont get it. I regard you as no more competent than Bob and have no more
knoweledge than he does. If what you say is valid then what he says is
valid.

Richard R.


"John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> wrote in message
news:c6a4fi$2v59$1@news.iquest.net...
> In article <I4SdnYSP-IAgFxXdRVn-hQ@wideopenwest.com>,
> "Richard R" <jwerir@wideopenwest.com> writes:
> If you take any statement without looking at (and understanding) all
> of the previous context, and you make comments against 'Bob haters',
> then perhaps you are making judgements out of ignorance. (I
> have seen some VERY QUESITONABLE and overly emotional comments
> from you, where you make incompetent assumptions -- please
> quit judging others.) I doubt anyone 'hates'
> Bob, but many people (including me) have proven over and over again
> both Bob's technical inaccuracy and also Bob's alterior motives.
Anonymous
April 23, 2004 8:57:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <-OGdnYW2UusQZxXdRVn-hw@wideopenwest.com>,
"Richard R" <jwerir@wideopenwest.com> writes:
> John
>
> I stil get the distinct impression that you blame people who support COCFM
> (like Bob) as delaying the transition or causing problems with the
> transition. This is hardly the case.
>
The issue isn't all or nothing. It is apparent that you want to
downgrade people like Bob's complicity to NOTHING. If you don't think
that the FUD that has been espoused by Bob and Sinclair hasn't had
negative effects on the planning for HDTV (hardware and broadcasting),
along against the gunshy consumer, then perhaps YOU need to
understand psychology better.

In this forum, you'll notice that the genearally worst FUD problem
is Bob (and his apologists.) Remember: I am an HDTV advocate -- I
have NO other competing interests like multi-channel pay per view
(with minimal SDTV quality) or mass transit blipverts.

John
Anonymous
April 23, 2004 9:01:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <6oWdndhUbdYznhTdRVn-vA@wideopenwest.com>,
"Richard R" <jwerir@wideopenwest.com> writes:
> John
>
> You are the one that is always judging. Making comments that you know so
> much and that nobody else knows anything.
>
You join in the middle of a discussion, and know everything?

>
> That you are always right.
>
Moreso than you.

>
> When you make ridiculous statements it always
> true.
>
Look at yourself. Please refute my claims one by one, and quit
over-generalizing like the idiot that you really are. (Remember,
I have been around HDTV since 1986, and really understand almost
the ENTIRE context.)

Newbies like you who know 'everything' are the WORST -- even
moreso than Bob. At least, Bob isn't a meddler, but has a real
personal interest in usurping the originally planned for HDTV
spectrum.

John
Anonymous
April 23, 2004 9:01:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <Pine.LNX.4.60.0404222054340.14918@shiva1.cac.washington.edu>,
Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:
> On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Richard R wrote:
>> It is fairly obvious that in mulitpath CODFM
>> works better (suburbs, cities, hilly areas).
>
> Strange. I live in a suburb in a very hilly area. Multipath makes most
> OTA analog reception intolerable, a fact which the cable company exploited
> for years (until their prices went higher than satellite). I'm only 8
> miles (and two hills) from the tower.
>
> If multipath broke 8-VSB, I'd expect DTV not to work at all.
>
Remember, newbie Richard R and his friend 'Bob' know everything.

John
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 9:15:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <32mic.7096$eZ5.4353@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
> Mark Crispin wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, Bob Miller wrote:
>>
>>> Current MSTV test of the latest 5th generation 8-SVB receivers show
>>> about a 65% good reception rate. So you are in the lucky 65%.
>>
>>
>> Oh, I'm lucky?
>>
>> I live in a place with such multipath problems that most people don't
>> even try to watch analog OTA. Everybody went to cable and satellite
>> long ago. Yet the "horribly vulnerable to multipath" 8-VSB works just fine.
>>
>> DTV is the first serious attempt I've made to watch OTA TV in 15 years.
>> And it works fine.
>
> In your case that is in the 65%. Nothing notable about one case.
>
My reception is also excellent. Of course, My NTSC reception is more
multipath and noise distorted. Given 'normal' people who I know have
tried, reception has generally been successful. Please ignore the
low VHF reception problems, where COFDM is likely much worse.

John
April 24, 2004 3:24:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Richard R" <jwerir@wideopenwest.com> wrote

>In short your just an arrogant fool.


My goodness!
John, what did you say to get Richard's panties in such a wad? ;-)
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 9:19:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <IvadnWoQiZoxGxfdRVn-tw@comcast.com>,
"David" <davey3@home.com> writes:
>
> "Richard R" <jwerir@wideopenwest.com> wrote
>
>>In short your just an arrogant fool.
>
> My goodness!
> John, what did you say to get Richard's panties in such a wad? ;-)
>
Richard is quite envious that things work for me. (Hint, I know
how to work around problems -- probably even his technical problems,
but not his personal ones.)

John
Anonymous
April 25, 2004 6:46:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <6oWdndhUbdYznhTdRVn-vA@wideopenwest.com>,
"Richard R" <jwerir@wideopenwest.com> writes:
> John
>
> You are the one that is always judging. Making comments that you know so
> much and that nobody else knows anything.
> That you are always right. When you make ridiculous statements it always
> true.
>
Richard, I am still waiting for ANY statements that I have made
that we can discuss. Why don't you open the issues up for discussion
instead of complaining?

If you simply want to complain, then please complain and whine
elsewhere.

John
!