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Bigger Dish

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Anonymous
May 30, 2004 5:57:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I joined a Forum, and some are using a 30 inch disk and say it's better
in bad weather.
The ones I'm looking at used to be 22 inches and are now 20 inches.

Can I get a whole setup with a bigger dish ?


--
NEVER approach a PC thinking "This will only take 5 minutes"

More about : bigger dish

Anonymous
May 30, 2004 8:42:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <CsmdnZyl_r86sCfd4p2dnA@giganews.com> "Joe H"
<JoeT@mailpuppy.com> writes:

> I joined a Forum, and some are using a 30 inch disk and say it's better
>in bad weather.

Only marginally so.. very-very marginally.

>The ones I'm looking at used to be 22 inches and are now 20 inches.

>Can I get a whole setup with a bigger dish ?

Yes, but in my opinion (speaking to you now with my official FCC-licensed
broadcast engineer's hat on) it is a waste of money.

Because.....

1. It's all about "capture area" - the bigger the better, but you've got
to go =>LOTS<= bigger to realize any significant improvement.

2. The standard 18 x 24" elliptical (triple sat) dish provides approx 34
db signal gain. (we'll use this 34 db figure as our reference point)

3. I have not seen a 30" elliptical. Yes, I've heard of one, but if there
is one, it would be smaller (perform worse) than the "big" 26 x 35
elliptical dish that I -HAVE- seen

4. The "big" elliptical (triple sat) dish I'm referring to is the one that
measures 26.2 x 35.3 inches. This is the "Gainmaster Premium" dish from
Channelmaster (Andrew). However, according to the manufacturer's published
specifications, it provides 35.7 db gain, a claimed 65% improvement. (But
from published specs it's only 1.7 db better than our basic reference
antenna above)

5. Trust me Joe, a 1.7db gain (65%) improvement =IS NOT= going to
**noticeably** improve your satellite viewing experience or rain fade
issues. Anyone who says otherwise is bullshitting you and exaggerating.

I use a 40" (round) (single sat) dish in combination with two more 18"
round single sat dishes. In other words, I have three sat dishes, each one
aimed separately at the 101, 110 and 119 birds respectively.

WHY?? Glad you asked.

First of all, having separate dishes allows me to very precisely tweak
each one. Precise aiming -DOES- make a difference. The combo, triple-sat
dishes are a compromise. You might be successful in geting one of the LNBs
precisely aimed, but you'll never be able to achieve a "peak" reading on
all 3 at the same time. It just isn't possible.

The 40" dish (Winegard 1-meter dish) that I use provides a whopping 40 db
gain, which is a full 6 db improvement over the standard dish. In layman's
terms that's a 400 % signal improvement !!! Unfortunately, an elliptical,
triple-sat dish of an equivalent size would be as big as a friggin' picnic
table, literally 40 x 54".

Since 99% of my family's satellite-TV viewing is of stations carried on
the 101 bird, we use the big 40" dish for this purpose. I won't lie to you
Joe, even with the monster 40" dish we *STILL* get occasional rain fade.
However, now when the storm cells come through our signal stays in a lot
longer and comes back a lot sooner. Quite often the picture never drops
out at all.... but it still does drop out occasionally.

For no more HD-watching that (mostly I) do, the little 18" dishes aimed at
the 110 and 119 birds are absolutely adequate. If I was a true HD-nut, I'd
go for three 40" dishes, but the one we have is adequate for now. Besides,
I watch far more HD from an OTA yagi antenna than I ever have off the
satellite. Truth be known, since having cancelled the HD package (not
worth it, in my opinion) I could probably get by with just the 40" dish
aimed at the 101 bird and the OTA antenna.

Anyway, please don't waste your money (and effort) fooling around with a
larger elliptical dish that is only incrementally larger. Trust me, you
will be very disappointed.
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 12:07:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

OK, I'm not going to debate that theory.

So then, I read I can go to Radio Shack and get a meter (Price reasonable),
and mount it and aim it myself.

Why do I have to pay Best Buy or someone , AND sign a 1 YEAR contract, if I
pay for the equipment, and tell them to turn me on ?

Second, I could go for OTA 30 Miles away and keep TM, but Where and Which
Box do I get so I don't have to sign that contract. All I'll use it for is
three UHF channels ABC, CBS and Whenever, NBC.

I'll walk into Best Buy tomorrow or CC and get the box and order out the
Best UHF I can get, no need for VHF, I don't think.


--
NEVER approach a PC thinking "This will only take 5 minutes"

"Mr Fixit" <MrFixit@msn.com> wrote in message
news:45jkb05fnk2hddqff20gin1kg99lld8s08@4ax.com...
> In article <CsmdnZyl_r86sCfd4p2dnA@giganews.com> "Joe H"
> <JoeT@mailpuppy.com> writes:
>
> > I joined a Forum, and some are using a 30 inch disk and say it's
better
> >in bad weather.
>
> Only marginally so.. very-very marginally.
>
> >The ones I'm looking at used to be 22 inches and are now 20 inches.
>
> >Can I get a whole setup with a bigger dish ?
>
> Yes, but in my opinion (speaking to you now with my official FCC-licensed
> broadcast engineer's hat on) it is a waste of money.
>
> Because.....
>
> 1. It's all about "capture area" - the bigger the better, but you've got
> to go =>LOTS<= bigger to realize any significant improvement.
>
> 2. The standard 18 x 24" elliptical (triple sat) dish provides approx 34
> db signal gain. (we'll use this 34 db figure as our reference point)
>
> 3. I have not seen a 30" elliptical. Yes, I've heard of one, but if there
> is one, it would be smaller (perform worse) than the "big" 26 x 35
> elliptical dish that I -HAVE- seen
>
> 4. The "big" elliptical (triple sat) dish I'm referring to is the one that
> measures 26.2 x 35.3 inches. This is the "Gainmaster Premium" dish from
> Channelmaster (Andrew). However, according to the manufacturer's published
> specifications, it provides 35.7 db gain, a claimed 65% improvement. (But
> from published specs it's only 1.7 db better than our basic reference
> antenna above)
>
> 5. Trust me Joe, a 1.7db gain (65%) improvement =IS NOT= going to
> **noticeably** improve your satellite viewing experience or rain fade
> issues. Anyone who says otherwise is bullshitting you and exaggerating.
>
> I use a 40" (round) (single sat) dish in combination with two more 18"
> round single sat dishes. In other words, I have three sat dishes, each one
> aimed separately at the 101, 110 and 119 birds respectively.
>
> WHY?? Glad you asked.
>
> First of all, having separate dishes allows me to very precisely tweak
> each one. Precise aiming -DOES- make a difference. The combo, triple-sat
> dishes are a compromise. You might be successful in geting one of the LNBs
> precisely aimed, but you'll never be able to achieve a "peak" reading on
> all 3 at the same time. It just isn't possible.
>
> The 40" dish (Winegard 1-meter dish) that I use provides a whopping 40 db
> gain, which is a full 6 db improvement over the standard dish. In layman's
> terms that's a 400 % signal improvement !!! Unfortunately, an elliptical,
> triple-sat dish of an equivalent size would be as big as a friggin' picnic
> table, literally 40 x 54".
>
> Since 99% of my family's satellite-TV viewing is of stations carried on
> the 101 bird, we use the big 40" dish for this purpose. I won't lie to you
> Joe, even with the monster 40" dish we *STILL* get occasional rain fade.
> However, now when the storm cells come through our signal stays in a lot
> longer and comes back a lot sooner. Quite often the picture never drops
> out at all.... but it still does drop out occasionally.
>
> For no more HD-watching that (mostly I) do, the little 18" dishes aimed at
> the 110 and 119 birds are absolutely adequate. If I was a true HD-nut, I'd
> go for three 40" dishes, but the one we have is adequate for now. Besides,
> I watch far more HD from an OTA yagi antenna than I ever have off the
> satellite. Truth be known, since having cancelled the HD package (not
> worth it, in my opinion) I could probably get by with just the 40" dish
> aimed at the 101 bird and the OTA antenna.
>
> Anyway, please don't waste your money (and effort) fooling around with a
> larger elliptical dish that is only incrementally larger. Trust me, you
> will be very disappointed.
>
>
Related resources
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 1:00:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <4cGdnfVXa-MaGSfdRVn-gg@giganews.com> "Joe H"
<JoeT@mailpuppy.com> writes:


>So then, I read I can go to Radio Shack and get a meter (Price reasonable),
>and mount it and aim it myself.

Yes, tho it's not as easy as it looks. Having some prior experience, even
experience w/CB radio stuff would help. Installation tip: The mast on
which you mount the dish must be absolutely dead-level plumb. If it isn't,
you will have considerable grief installing your satellite dish.

>Why do I have to pay Best Buy or someone , AND sign a 1 YEAR contract, if I
>pay for the equipment, and tell them to turn me on ?

Because the price you pay for the equipment is a subsidized price. The
real price would be hundreds more. So the sat company requires that you
take a minimum 1-year contract as a way of recovering their investment in
the receiver(s),

>Second, I could go for OTA 30 Miles away and keep TM, but Where and Which
>Box do I get so I don't have to sign that contract. All I'll use it for is
>three UHF channels ABC, CBS and Whenever, NBC.

Samsung SIR-T351 (for OTA HDTV) but no satellite. $449 list, about $319
online, less for refurb'd.

>I'll walk into Best Buy tomorrow or CC and get the box and order out the
>Best UHF I can get, no need for VHF, I don't think.

Go for an outdoor antenna....

Just my opinion, avoid the Terk models.
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 1:52:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Mr Fixit wrote:

> In article <CsmdnZyl_r86sCfd4p2dnA@giganews.com> "Joe H"
> <JoeT@mailpuppy.com> writes:
>
>
>> I joined a Forum, and some are using a 30 inch disk and say it's better
>>in bad weather.
>
>
> Only marginally so.. very-very marginally.

That doesn't square with my experience. Here in cental MA I now only
have visible rain fade in the worst of thunderstorms with my 30" dish.
The outages are much shorter when they do happen.

Matthew

--
If the war in Iraq was over oil, we lost.
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 1:52:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <25ae54e616d8bdb5e7c05e9d3fec12fe@news.teranews.com> "Matthew
L. Martin" <mlmartin@me.com> writes:

>Mr Fixit wrote:

>> In article <CsmdnZyl_r86sCfd4p2dnA@giganews.com> "Joe H"
>> <JoeT@mailpuppy.com> writes:

>>> I joined a Forum, and some are using a 30 inch disk and say it's better
>>>in bad weather.

>> Only marginally so.. very-very marginally.

>That doesn't square with my experience. Here in cental MA I now only
>have visible rain fade in the worst of thunderstorms with my 30" dish.
>The outages are much shorter when they do happen.

>Matthew

Technical specs don't lie Matthew. The 1.7 db (65%) improvement (per
manufacturer's specs) is only a marginal performance increase. I don't
dispute your experience, but if as you say you have noticed significant
improvement with the bigger dish, then -most likely- your original one was
poorly aimed and whoever installed this one took their time and did a much
better job.

What make/model dish did you get?
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 2:47:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Mr Fixit (MrFixit@msn.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> <JoeT@mailpuppy.com> writes:
> >So then, I read I can go to Radio Shack and get a meter (Price reasonable),
> >and mount it and aim it myself.
>
> Yes, tho it's not as easy as it looks. Having some prior experience, even
> experience w/CB radio stuff would help.
I suppose it would help, but I had no experience in anything related to
capturing signals out of the air (other than my car radio), and both the
satellite dish and OTA antenna install were a simple matter of spending
the time (about 2 hours for the whole satellite install, including cable
runs).

Don't let lack of experience frighten you from a self-install.

> Installation tip: The mast on
> which you mount the dish must be absolutely dead-level plumb. If it isn't,
> you will have considerable grief installing your satellite dish.

This is true. I did have carpentry experience, and leveling something
is second-nature, so that could have helped.

--
Jeff Rife | "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going
SPAM bait: | to take pan & scan anymore."
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov |
uce@ftc.gov |
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 3:20:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Mr Fixit wrote:

> In article <25ae54e616d8bdb5e7c05e9d3fec12fe@news.teranews.com> "Matthew
> L. Martin" <mlmartin@me.com> writes:
>
>
>>Mr Fixit wrote:
>
>
>>>In article <CsmdnZyl_r86sCfd4p2dnA@giganews.com> "Joe H"
>>><JoeT@mailpuppy.com> writes:
>
>
>
>>>> I joined a Forum, and some are using a 30 inch disk and say it's better
>>>>in bad weather.
>
>
>
>>>Only marginally so.. very-very marginally.
>
>
>>That doesn't square with my experience. Here in cental MA I now only
>>have visible rain fade in the worst of thunderstorms with my 30" dish.
>>The outages are much shorter when they do happen.
>
>
>>Matthew
>
>
> Technical specs don't lie Matthew.

They also frequently don't tell the full story, either.


> The 1.7 db (65%) improvement (per
> manufacturer's specs) is only a marginal performance increase. I don't
> dispute your experience, but if as you say you have noticed significant
> improvement with the bigger dish, then -most likely- your original one was
> poorly aimed and whoever installed this one took their time and did a much
> better job.

I installed and peaked both of them. The signal strength difference on
the same DirecTV receiver was significant. Low seventies and mid
eighties became low nineties and high nineties.

> What make/model dish did you get?

I really can't recall. I changed them out about five years ago.

Matthew

--
If the war in Iraq was over oil, we lost.
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 3:20:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <b2b0b4f0e71829843a5db76febd907bb@news.teranews.com> "Matthew
L. Martin" <mlmartin@me.com> writes:


>I installed and peaked both of them. The signal strength difference on
>the same DirecTV receiver was significant. Low seventies and mid
>eighties became low nineties and high nineties.

Well, as I said, it's all about "capture area" i.e., not the total surface
area, but the surface area of the dish that is seen by the LNB. It is
really hard to believe that your receiver signal readings improved as much
as you say unless there was something wrong with the initial install
(regardless of who did it).

Here in southeast Texas (near Houston) the sats are high in the sky making
for excellent signals, typically mid-nineties with only the most basic
dish. Still, rainstorms here can be hellish. Even with a 40" dish and
signal levels buried at 100, there are still occasions where a severe
storm will take you out for a few minutes.
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 6:06:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Mr Fixit wrote:
> In article <b2b0b4f0e71829843a5db76febd907bb@news.teranews.com> "Matthew
> L. Martin" <mlmartin@me.com> writes:
>
>
>
>>I installed and peaked both of them. The signal strength difference on
>>the same DirecTV receiver was significant. Low seventies and mid
>>eighties became low nineties and high nineties.
>
>
> Well, as I said, it's all about "capture area" i.e., not the total surface
> area, but the surface area of the dish that is seen by the LNB. It is
> really hard to believe that your receiver signal readings improved as much
> as you say unless there was something wrong with the initial install
> (regardless of who did it).

I think that given the tools supplied by the receiver and the time and
care I put into aiming both dishes that the signal stengths don't lie.

> Here in southeast Texas (near Houston) the sats are high in the sky making
> for excellent signals, typically mid-nineties with only the most basic
> dish. Still, rainstorms here can be hellish. Even with a 40" dish and
> signal levels buried at 100, there are still occasions where a severe
> storm will take you out for a few minutes.

I didn't claim anything other than an improvement, not perfection. Why
do you thing that there wasn't a significant and noticeable improvement?
Could it be because you think that the numbers represent _everything_?

Matthew

--
If the war in Iraq was over oil, we lost.
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 6:06:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <e31874ddeb8333df2f17fe12562b259e@news.teranews.com> "Matthew
L. Martin" <mlmartin@me.com> writes:


>I didn't claim anything other than an improvement, not perfection. Why
>do you thing that there wasn't a significant and noticeable improvement?
>Could it be because you think that the numbers represent _everything_?

I'm not going to debate this with you Matthew because obviously there's
more to this equation than we're seeing. Most likely the "meter" in your
sat receiver is not linear and so a slight signal improvement results in a
disproportionately large increase in the signal reading. At any rate it is
now clear to me that you have convinced yourself that you made a
significant improvement with an otherwise insignificant increase in
antenna size and efforts to logically explain antenna technical
parameters to you would be a futile exercise on my part. Please pardon me.
It's clear you're the expert here. Check the job listings, surely there's
someone desperately needing an RF microwave signal propagation engineer of
your obvious expertise and experience out there somewhere.

When the hell am I going to learn? Next person that asks for help will get
the standard "duhh, I dunno" out of me.
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 4:04:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I assemble my own computers, I was into CD Radio and sideband, and mounted
the antennas for CB, VHF etc, but it's different with the dish, I been all
over the Net and a altitude longitude and a meter of some sort is needed.
And if you want a good signal and get fussy, you need 3 dish's, so I guess I
see if I can go the OTA with a channel master and call it good. I just want
to be sure that HD signal is really there, not just talk.

I decided there is just too much competition right now for the little bit of
HD there is out there to be signing contracts, which if Time Warner gets a
good receiver, there is no contract.

Sorry I caused a problem, there are always different side's to a story and I
don't care what the subject is about, I know that only too well, I'm Retired
now, so I thought I heard it all, but life is a school, and learning and
opinions never stop, so thanks to everyone.



--
NEVER approach a PC thinking "This will only take 5 minutes"

"Jeff Rife" <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b2466cb4c685e8298969c@razor.nabs.net...
> Mr Fixit (MrFixit@msn.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> > <JoeT@mailpuppy.com> writes:
> > >So then, I read I can go to Radio Shack and get a meter (Price
reasonable),
> > >and mount it and aim it myself.
> >
> > Yes, tho it's not as easy as it looks. Having some prior experience,
even
> > experience w/CB radio stuff would help.
> I suppose it would help, but I had no experience in anything related to
> capturing signals out of the air (other than my car radio), and both the
> satellite dish and OTA antenna install were a simple matter of spending
> the time (about 2 hours for the whole satellite install, including cable
> runs).
>
> Don't let lack of experience frighten you from a self-install.
>
> > Installation tip: The mast on
> > which you mount the dish must be absolutely dead-level plumb. If it
isn't,
> > you will have considerable grief installing your satellite dish.
>
> This is true. I did have carpentry experience, and leveling something
> is second-nature, so that could have helped.
>
> --
> Jeff Rife | "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going
> SPAM bait: | to take pan & scan anymore."
> AskDOJ@usdoj.gov |
> uce@ftc.gov |
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 4:17:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Mr Fixit wrote:

> In article <e31874ddeb8333df2f17fe12562b259e@news.teranews.com> "Matthew
> L. Martin" <mlmartin@me.com> writes:
>
>
>
>>I didn't claim anything other than an improvement, not perfection. Why
>>do you thing that there wasn't a significant and noticeable improvement?
>>Could it be because you think that the numbers represent _everything_?
>
>
> I'm not going to debate this with you Matthew because obviously there's
> more to this equation than we're seeing. Most likely the "meter" in your
> sat receiver is not linear and so a slight signal improvement results in a
> disproportionately large increase in the signal reading. At any rate it is
> now clear to me that you have convinced yourself that you made a
> significant improvement with an otherwise insignificant increase in
> antenna size and efforts to logically explain antenna technical
> parameters to you would be a futile exercise on my part. Please pardon me.
> It's clear you're the expert here. Check the job listings, surely there's
> someone desperately needing an RF microwave signal propagation engineer of
> your obvious expertise and experience out there somewhere.

You respond sarcastically for no good reason, I think.

There are reasons that a small improvement in signal strength,
especially in a digitally encoded signal, can provide a marked and
significant improvement in decoding capability. All you have to have is
an improvement that lifts the signal above marginal to solid. That
difference could be very small in terms of signal strength but very
significant in terms of keeping the data stream correct.

Rain fade is all about margins. If you are below the margin you get no
correct data. If you are above the margin, you get perfect data. Moving
that a few dB above that margin can reduce the amount of rain fade
observed considerably.

> When the hell am I going to learn? Next person that asks for help will get
> the standard "duhh, I dunno" out of me.

You might want to start learning that you don't know everything. Life at
the margins of a digital signal isn't the same as life at the margins of
an analog signal.

In any case, the $50 I spent on the 30" dish was well worth it in terms
of reduced rain fade.

Matthew

--
If the war in Iraq was over oil, we lost.
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 7:12:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

MrFixit@msn.com (Mr Fixit) wrote in
news:luskb053a67sjlakije86eei11eqrmdv2n@4ax.com:

> Here in southeast Texas (near Houston) the sats are high in the sky
> making for excellent signals, typically mid-nineties with only the
> most basic dish. Still, rainstorms here can be hellish. Even with a
> 40" dish and signal levels buried at 100, there are still occasions
> where a severe storm will take you out for a few minutes.
>

A guess: since your dishes are pointing almost straight up, maybe you get
more spatter from rain - each rain drop hits the dish at an angle that is
much closer to 90 degrees, so each drop splatters more and adds additional
water between the dish and the LNB?
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 7:12:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <Xns94FA7196115D7jeffshoafalltel.net@63.223.5.95> Jeff Shoaf
<jeffshoaf-@-alltel.net> writes:


>A guess: since your dishes are pointing almost straight up, maybe you get
>more spatter from rain - each rain drop hits the dish at an angle that is
>much closer to 90 degrees, so each drop splatters more and adds additional
>water between the dish and the LNB?

When tropical storm Allison came ashore in june of 2001 it dropped 26
inches of rain in 48 hours. Even the 10-ft dishes at the local broadcast
stations lost signal and 18-wheelers were completely submerged on I-10.
(story & photos here: <http://www.awra.org/state/tx/acrobat/ivey.pdf&gt;

When I said it "rains here" I meant to say that it R*A*I*N*S! In a
normal year we'll have a total of 48 inches, but it frequently comes as a
monsoon, an inch or more at a time all within the span of an hour or so.

Satellite angle of elevation here is something between 55 and 60 degrees
above the horizon, steep enough that big trees in the yard usually aren't
a problem unless their roots are breaking up your foundation. :-)


--
Support XM Satellite Radio!
Tell the FCC how you feel about the Natl Assn of Broadcasters'
attempts to block local content! We need your help.
<http://www.xmradio.com/grassroots/index.jsp&gt;
<http://www.cato.org/tech/tk/040120-tk.html&gt;
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 10:04:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jeff is correct that you should be able to get reasonably close aligning
the small dish with the meter (or signal beeper) built into the satellite
receiver. However, "reasonably close" is not always exactly dead-on. The
small dishes are reasonably easy because they have a fairly wide
beamwidth. Larger dishes have a much narrower beamwidth and therefore can
be a booger to align without rooftop metering or a spectrum analyzer.

Tweaking (or signal peaking) is generally not possible without some type
of meter (other than that in the receiver). We ordinarily use an
instrument called a "Bird 1000A" for our commercial installations.

Still, the most critical element is having the mast pipe absolutely dead
level plumb. When you're dealing with a multi-sat dish, an out-of-plumb
mast pipe will have you pulling your hair out trying to get all 3 birds
even with the best test equipment.

In article <MPG.1b256759494c119b9896a0@razor.nabs.net> Jeff Rife
<wevsr@nabs.net> writes:

>Joe H (JoeT@mailpuppy.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>> I assemble my own computers, I was into CD Radio and sideband, and mounted
>> the antennas for CB, VHF etc, but it's different with the dish, I been all
>> over the Net and a altitude longitude and a meter of some sort is needed.
>
>I used the meter built into the receiver. The beam-width on the small
>dish is wide enough that the ZIP code entered into the receiver will
>give you a good first approximation of the numbers...good enough to get
>*some* signal.

--
Support XM Satellite Radio!
Tell the FCC how you feel about the Natl Assn of Broadcasters'
attempts to block local content! We need your help.
<http://www.xmradio.com/grassroots/index.jsp&gt;
<http://www.cato.org/tech/tk/040120-tk.html&gt;
Anonymous
May 31, 2004 10:52:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I'm telling you, if I put three dishes up there, I'll be the laugh of the
town.

I was doing some figuring, if I stayed with just Plain cable, no Hd box, and
bought a OTA box, I'm talking 3 to 5 hundred, (about 100 more gives you the
option to go the dish or Cable (if they would let you use it (Time Warner I
mean), so you might as well get the extra for the dish and if you don't use
it, you don't.
That Samsung Ts 360 has fairly good REVIEW'S, but the Motorola HD OTA HDT100
reviews are better and I think it does it all if I read right.

Zenith HDV40 is hard to find, I was going through Best Buy, Circuit city and
a couple others ONLINE, and, as I said, I think I should go OTA with the
Ability to go HD Satelite for the about 100 difference.



--
NEVER approach a PC thinking "This will only take 5 minutes"

"Mr Fixit" <MrFixit@msn.com> wrote in message
news:modnb05i70j9hv6fv6r3i4khrd129dioqe@4ax.com...
> Jeff is correct that you should be able to get reasonably close aligning
> the small dish with the meter (or signal beeper) built into the satellite
> receiver. However, "reasonably close" is not always exactly dead-on. The
> small dishes are reasonably easy because they have a fairly wide
> beamwidth. Larger dishes have a much narrower beamwidth and therefore can
> be a booger to align without rooftop metering or a spectrum analyzer.
>
> Tweaking (or signal peaking) is generally not possible without some type
> of meter (other than that in the receiver). We ordinarily use an
> instrument called a "Bird 1000A" for our commercial installations.
>
> Still, the most critical element is having the mast pipe absolutely dead
> level plumb. When you're dealing with a multi-sat dish, an out-of-plumb
> mast pipe will have you pulling your hair out trying to get all 3 birds
> even with the best test equipment.
>
> In article <MPG.1b256759494c119b9896a0@razor.nabs.net> Jeff Rife
> <wevsr@nabs.net> writes:
>
> >Joe H (JoeT@mailpuppy.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> >> I assemble my own computers, I was into CD Radio and sideband, and
mounted
> >> the antennas for CB, VHF etc, but it's different with the dish, I been
all
> >> over the Net and a altitude longitude and a meter of some sort is
needed.
> >
> >I used the meter built into the receiver. The beam-width on the small
> >dish is wide enough that the ZIP code entered into the receiver will
> >give you a good first approximation of the numbers...good enough to get
> >*some* signal.
>
> --
> Support XM Satellite Radio!
> Tell the FCC how you feel about the Natl Assn of Broadcasters'
> attempts to block local content! We need your help.
> <http://www.xmradio.com/grassroots/index.jsp&gt;
> <http://www.cato.org/tech/tk/040120-tk.html&gt;
Anonymous
June 1, 2004 2:00:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Sun, 30 May 2004, Mr Fixit wrote:
>> Can I get a whole setup with a bigger dish ?
> Yes, but in my opinion (speaking to you now with my official FCC-licensed
> broadcast engineer's hat on) it is a waste of money.

I have a related question, having to do with reception in the north
country.

In my RV, I have a table-top round 18" single satellite dish (actually 18"
wide by 20" high). Depending upon circumstances, it's either on the
ground, on a picnic table, or on the roof of the RV.

I don't get very far (day 3 or 4) into Canada before I lose DirecTV
service. They really do have those beams tightly aimed.

I hear various stories about needing anywhere from 30" to 8 foot dish for
reception in Alaska. I might be able to stow a 30" dish with difficulty,
but 8 foot is of course impossible.

Is there any way to work out how large a dish is actually needed given
latitude and longitude? I might look into buying a 30" dish if it will
work, but if it just gives me a few more miles north before I lose service
it isn't work the extra expense and hassle.

Is there such a thing as a collapsable dish, e.g. that folds up like an
umbrella?

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Anonymous
June 1, 2004 7:13:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Mark Crispin (mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> Is there any way to work out how large a dish is actually needed given
> latitude and longitude?

Sort of. I have seen DirecTV satellite footprint maps, which show the
signal strength in dB like a weather map showing temperatures. To maintain
the same signal, you would need a dish with enough extra gain to offset the
loss in raw signal as you go north.

> Is there such a thing as a collapsable dish, e.g. that folds up like an
> umbrella?

I've heard of 5' to 6' folding "portable" dishes, but they are fairly pricey,
and are hard to aim at a DBS satellite (very narrow beamwidth). I also
don't know if you can get one with a mount for a DirecTV LNB, which requires
an offset (not central) mount.

--
Jeff Rife | "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going
SPAM bait: | to take pan & scan anymore."
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov |
uce@ftc.gov |
Anonymous
June 1, 2004 10:25:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <MPG.1b25f69fcdcc80259896a8@razor.nabs.net> Jeff Rife
<wevsr@nabs.net> writes:

>Mark Crispin (mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>> Is there any way to work out how large a dish is actually needed given
>> latitude and longitude?

>Sort of. I have seen DirecTV satellite footprint maps, which show the
>signal strength in dB like a weather map showing temperatures. To maintain
>the same signal, you would need a dish with enough extra gain to offset the
>loss in raw signal as you go north.

>> Is there such a thing as a collapsable dish, e.g. that folds up like an
>> umbrella?

>I've heard of 5' to 6' folding "portable" dishes, but they are fairly pricey,
>and are hard to aim at a DBS satellite (very narrow beamwidth). I also
>don't know if you can get one with a mount for a DirecTV LNB, which requires
>an offset (not central) mount.

Jeff's reply is right-on, nothing much I can add. The problem w/Canada is
that DirecTV is technically illegal there, hence the signal footprint is
maximized on the U.S. deliberately.

I have a couple Canadian friends who use the same 40" dish that I use, but
ever since DirecTV did the last access card change, they say they can no
longer get the signal. I take that to mean they were pirating the signal
to begin with, since there never was any way for them to legally subscribe
from a Canadian address.

I don't know what the legal implications would be for a U.S. citizen
travelling through Canada. My guess is you would be subject to (and be
expected to abide by) Canadian law.

I have seen several satellite footprint maps, tho never one for either
DirecTV or Dish Network. Likely too that is by design. I'm sure their
engineers have them, but doubt they're available anywhere for public
consumption.


--
Support XM Satellite Radio!
Tell the FCC how you feel about the Natl Assn of Broadcasters'
attempts to block local content! We need your help.
<http://www.xmradio.com/grassroots/index.jsp&gt;
<http://www.cato.org/tech/tk/040120-tk.html&gt;
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 3:36:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Mr Fixit (MrFixit@msn.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> I have seen several satellite footprint maps, tho never one for either
> DirecTV or Dish Network.

Try http://www.satcodx.com/eng/#SatcoDX7

Click on the sat name, then on the coverage map (which is supposed to be
associated with each transponder, but it doesn't seem to be).

There is also http://www.dbstv.com/DIRECTV_Footprint.html for detailed,
dB-level curves.

--
Jeff Rife | "Eternity with nerds. It's the Pasadena Star
SPAM bait: | Trek convention all over again."
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov | -- Nichelle Nichols, "Futurama"
uce@ftc.gov |
!