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Pen sized antenna!!

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Anonymous
June 2, 2004 12:37:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Pen sized antennas for indoor reception is the standard in Taiwan.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?A3C615378

Taiwan broadcasters are going to co-operate, co-locate and build a
common package for terrestrial free DTV in Taiwan similar to what is
inevitable in the US also. USDTV and Emmis are just following what is
becoming standard around the world.

From the article.
"Digitalization also requires synergy among the four terrestrial
television stations"

Wouldn't it be nice to have a pen sized non directional antenna that
worked anywhere in the country mobile, portable or fixed? All the US has
to do for this to happen is follow Taiwan's example and switch as they
did from 8-VSB to COFDM based modulation.

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/detail.asp?ID=49291&...

More about : pen sized antenna

Anonymous
June 2, 2004 12:37:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Bob Miller wrote:
> Pen sized antennas for indoor reception is the standard in Taiwan.
> http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/detail.asp?ID=49291&...

Typical Bob Miller hyperbole.

Nothing in that article says that "pen sized antennas for indoor reception
is the standard in Taiwan."

Bob Miller apparently surmised this from the announcement of a laptop
device (possibly a PCMCIA card, but the article does not say) "with a
small antenna".

There is nothing in this article which says that people can use this to
watch TV in cars. The article discusses car TV in the context of a
separate device, Happy in Car, which costs about $400. Although the
article states that Happy in Car has an "internal antenna", it also
mentions that it has GPS; as most people know, GPS works poorly in many
cars without an external antenna.

There is only one road in Taiwan where you can drive at 100km/h: the Sun
Yat-Sen Freeway (which, in spite of its name, is actually a turnpike).
In most of Taiwan, vehicle speeds are closer to 10km/h.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 12:37:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Bob Miller wrote:
> Taiwan, as have many countries in this world,
> have decided that for now SDTV is good enough.

That's because Taiwan uses cheap snake oil COFDM which requires too much
power to do HDTV. The population center is on the west coast, with a few
small towns on the east coast and largely uninhabitable mountains in the
middle. Taiwanese TV stations only cover a small geographic areas,
generally just a single city.

Japan, which uses a modified version of COFDM to overcome the many
deficiencies of COFDM, is only able to get digital TV in three cities
after nearly 15 years of trying to create HDTV.

Meanwhile, HDTV is available throughout the USA, because we selected the
superior 8VSB modulation system which has the bandwidth and covers the
long distances needed in North America. And now we have HDTVs available
at Wal-Mart for well under $1000.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
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Anonymous
June 2, 2004 1:55:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> Pen sized antennas for indoor reception is the standard in Taiwan.
>
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?A3C615378
>
> Taiwan broadcasters are going to co-operate, co-locate and build a
> common package for terrestrial free DTV in Taiwan similar to what is
> inevitable in the US also. USDTV and Emmis are just following what is
> becoming standard around the world.
>
> From the article.
> "Digitalization also requires synergy among the four terrestrial
> television stations"
>
> Wouldn't it be nice to have a pen sized non directional antenna that
> worked anywhere in the country mobile, portable or fixed? All the US has
> to do for this to happen is follow Taiwan's example and switch as they
> did from 8-VSB to COFDM based modulation.
>
> http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/detail.asp?ID=49291&...

All four broadcast stations? How impressive. I have over 20 broadcast
stations available to me. Of course, if the US were the same size as
Taiwan and had as few stations, it might make sense.

But then again, reality says that the US isn't the size of Taiwan and we
have more than four stations broadcasting in virtually any area.

Matthew

--
If the war in Iraq was over oil, we lost.
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 4:27:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Matthew L. Martin wrote:
> Bob Miller wrote:
>
>> Pen sized antennas for indoor reception is the standard in Taiwan.
>>
>> http://makeashorterlink.com/?A3C615378
>>
>> Taiwan broadcasters are going to co-operate, co-locate and build a
>> common package for terrestrial free DTV in Taiwan similar to what is
>> inevitable in the US also. USDTV and Emmis are just following what is
>> becoming standard around the world.
>>
>> From the article.
>> "Digitalization also requires synergy among the four terrestrial
>> television stations"
>>
>> Wouldn't it be nice to have a pen sized non directional antenna that
>> worked anywhere in the country mobile, portable or fixed? All the US
>> has to do for this to happen is follow Taiwan's example and switch as
>> they did from 8-VSB to COFDM based modulation.
>>
>> http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/detail.asp?ID=49291&...
>
>
> All four broadcast stations? How impressive. I have over 20 broadcast
> stations available to me. Of course, if the US were the same size as
> Taiwan and had as few stations, it might make sense.
>
> But then again, reality says that the US isn't the size of Taiwan and we
> have more than four stations broadcasting in virtually any area.
>
> Matthew
>
I think the point is that whatever the number of stations they have,
Taiwan can actually receive their's over the air with simple "PEN SIZED"
omni antennas that work mobile portable and fixed. A lot of people in a
market like New York are not impressed with 20 channels if you can't
receive them even with directional antennas.

Being able to receive the signal over the air is the whole point of
broadcasting in most countries. In the US the whole point of
broadcasting OTA is to qualify for must carry on cable.

Taiwan tried 8-VSB and their broadcasters did everything but riot,
though it almost came to that, before their government relented, allowed
INDEPENDENT and OPEN testing and then reversed its decision and switched
to COFDM.
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 5:18:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Mark Crispin wrote:

> On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Bob Miller wrote:
>
>> Pen sized antennas for indoor reception is the standard in Taiwan.
>> http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/detail.asp?ID=49291&...
>
>
> Typical Bob Miller hyperbole.
>
> Nothing in that article says that "pen sized antennas for indoor
> reception is the standard in Taiwan."
>
> Bob Miller apparently surmised this from the announcement of a laptop
> device (possibly a PCMCIA card, but the article does not say) "with a
> small antenna".
>
> There is nothing in this article which says that people can use this to
> watch TV in cars. The article discusses car TV in the context of a
> separate device, Happy in Car, which costs about $400. Although the
> article states that Happy in Car has an "internal antenna", it also
> mentions that it has GPS; as most people know, GPS works poorly in many
> cars without an external antenna.
>
> There is only one road in Taiwan where you can drive at 100km/h: the Sun
> Yat-Sen Freeway (which, in spite of its name, is actually a turnpike).
> In most of Taiwan, vehicle speeds are closer to 10km/h.
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
> Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
> Si vis pacem, para bellum.

The article that Mark copied from my post was not the correct article.
The correct article was the first article...

http://makeashorterlink.com/?A3C615378

And the direct quote is...
"TTV offers a FreeView setup box and a pen-sized antenna to enable
viewers to receive all channels available in digital quality."

Since we work with three Taiwanese companies that produce a PCMCIA card,
a USB device, a STB with LCD screen and an after market car install kit
with a diversity chipset made in France I can tell you that a pen sized
antenna will work well in all the coverage areas of these TV stations.

And I leave it to readers to decide what the quote from the article
above means.

Taiwan chose COFDM for good reasons. More importantly they rejected
8-VSB for good reasons.
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 5:31:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Mark Crispin wrote:

> On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Bob Miller wrote:
>
>> Pen sized antennas for indoor reception is the standard in Taiwan.
>> http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/detail.asp?ID=49291&...
>
>
.. Although the
> article states that Happy in Car has an "internal antenna", it also
> mentions that it has GPS; as most people know, GPS works poorly in many
> cars without an external antenna.

GPS works on a line of sight basis. It should not work in a car at all
unless it is lucky enough to see multiple satellites line of sight
though the various windows. GPS needs an antenna that can see a lot of
sky. COFDM does not work line of sight and is not used in satellite
systems. COFDM is used terrestrially and is uniquely suited to
environments that have a lot of multipath NON LINE OF SIGHT signal.
Unlike 8-VSB that is killed by multipath COFDM actually collects
multipath signals and uses these signals to increase overall signal
strength. This allows COFDM to work with an antenna in your car and
"internal" to a receiver.

There are many COFDM receivers coming that will have "internal" antennas
and they will work well in your home or car. Obviously in any area where
the signal strength is low for whatever reason an outside antenna will
do better. Most countries will build out their COFDM SFN networks until
virtually all areas will be in a coverage area with a decent signal.

Spain has just announced that they have 80% of the country covered with
digital broadcasting at a cost of $150 million. They say that over the
next few years they will build out to 100% at a further cost of $350
million. Of course Spain is using COFDM.
>
> There is only one road in Taiwan where you can drive at 100km/h: the Sun
> Yat-Sen Freeway (which, in spite of its name, is actually a turnpike).
> In most of Taiwan, vehicle speeds are closer to 10km/h.
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
> Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
> Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 8:16:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Mark Crispin wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Bob Miller wrote:
>
>> Taiwan, as have many countries in this world, have decided that for
>> now SDTV is good enough.
>
>
> That's because Taiwan uses cheap snake oil COFDM which requires too much
> power to do HDTV.

Power had nothing to do with resolution. HDTV is a resolution. Both
COFDM and 8-VSB can deliver different resolutions like SD, HD and ED.
The only question is ease of reception and coverage area at a particular
transmitter power. COFDM wins in ease of reception and even works
mobile. 8-VSB has tested in the lab as needing less power to cover a
given area but ALL countries who have openly tested the two have said
that in the real world this is hard to find or so small as to be
irrelevant. All these countries have either picked COFDM over 8-VSB or
are still on the fence.

The population center is on the west coast, with a
> few small towns on the east coast and largely uninhabitable mountains in
> the middle. Taiwanese TV stations only cover a small geographic areas,
> generally just a single city.
>
> Japan, which uses a modified version of COFDM to overcome the many
> deficiencies of COFDM, is only able to get digital TV in three cities
> after nearly 15 years of trying to create HDTV.

Many think that Japan modified DVB-T COFDM to evade royalty payments
much like the Chinese are supposed to be doing. The differences between
ISDB-T COFDM and DVB-T COFDM are small and have mostly to do with better
mobile characteristics. DVB-T COFDM has recently added functionality
that makes it more like ISDB-T in particular DVB-H. The differences at
this point are now very small. DVB-T has one big advantage. It has been
adopted by most countries in the world while ISDB-T has only Japan.
DVB-T has the advantage of scale.

Mark makes it sound as if Japan is having difficulty deploying ISDB-T
since they have only started broadcasting last December and have only
three cities so far. I will let the reader consider the evidence on this
one. I suggest just watching the news as Japan sweeps past us like we
were a fourth world country in OTA HDTV over the next several years.
They have something we do not and that is a viewing public that is
buying HDTV sets with OTA receivers in them that are not mandated. They
buy them to use them not because the FCC has forced receivers on them in
TV sets they only want to attach to cable and have no inclination to
attach to rooftop antennas.
>
> Meanwhile, HDTV is available throughout the USA, because we selected the
> superior 8VSB modulation system which has the bandwidth and covers the
> long distances needed in North America. And now we have HDTVs available
> at Wal-Mart for well under $1000.

It is not the broadcast of HDTV or DTV it is the number of viewers who
receive it that counts. We are stalled at near ZERO and the FCC has
decided to mandate our purchase of receivers since we refuse to buy
them. Other countries have shortages because of massive demand by a free
people.

Walmart has 19 HDTV monitors (no receiver) on their website two of which
are under $1000. One was 17" and the other a RCA 32" HDTV Monitor
D32F750T at $762. They advertise ONE OTA 8-VSB receiver, the LG LSS3200A
Direct TV Satellite Receiver at $568 and they had one integrated set at
$1744, a Philips 51" Widescreen HDTV with Integrated HDTV Tuner 51PP9910.

So the lowest price OTA HDTV that you could buy at Walmart would be the
RCA 32" at $762 plus the OTA receiver at $568 for a total of $1330
unless you drop down to 17" which is pretty hard to really appreciate HD
on and the price drop would be a few dollars anyway. Then of course you
have to add the cost of the rooftop antenna and the rotor plus
installation. Another $300 sound right?

Found 3 LCD 17" LCD HDTV monitors (no receiver).

Maybe at Mark's Walmart they had a lot of open box specials.
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
> Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
> Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 2:52:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

That's nice...but....

"The good news is that these extra channels are free of charge as long as a
viewer pays the initial cost to install a setup box," said Chen.

Wonder how much that will be. But then again, Bob forgot to mention that. So
although the box might be free the installation might be enormous.
Actually, I dont care what Tawain is doing with there broadcasting since
they are not broadcasting HD.
My question is though, is there any place in the world where COFDM is being
used for HDTV? If so, where?

Scott
"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:CV9vc.19998$be.11488@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Mark Crispin wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Bob Miller wrote:
> >
> >> Pen sized antennas for indoor reception is the standard in Taiwan.
> >> http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/detail.asp?ID=49291&...
> >
> >
> > Typical Bob Miller hyperbole.
> >
> > Nothing in that article says that "pen sized antennas for indoor
> > reception is the standard in Taiwan."
> >
> > Bob Miller apparently surmised this from the announcement of a laptop
> > device (possibly a PCMCIA card, but the article does not say) "with a
> > small antenna".
> >
> > There is nothing in this article which says that people can use this to
> > watch TV in cars. The article discusses car TV in the context of a
> > separate device, Happy in Car, which costs about $400. Although the
> > article states that Happy in Car has an "internal antenna", it also
> > mentions that it has GPS; as most people know, GPS works poorly in many
> > cars without an external antenna.
> >
> > There is only one road in Taiwan where you can drive at 100km/h: the Sun
> > Yat-Sen Freeway (which, in spite of its name, is actually a turnpike).
> > In most of Taiwan, vehicle speeds are closer to 10km/h.
> >
> > -- Mark --
> >
> > http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
> > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
> > Si vis pacem, para bellum.
>
> The article that Mark copied from my post was not the correct article.
> The correct article was the first article...
>
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?A3C615378
>
> And the direct quote is...
> "TTV offers a FreeView setup box and a pen-sized antenna to enable
> viewers to receive all channels available in digital quality."
>
> Since we work with three Taiwanese companies that produce a PCMCIA card,
> a USB device, a STB with LCD screen and an after market car install kit
> with a diversity chipset made in France I can tell you that a pen sized
> antenna will work well in all the coverage areas of these TV stations.
>
> And I leave it to readers to decide what the quote from the article
> above means.
>
> Taiwan chose COFDM for good reasons. More importantly they rejected
> 8-VSB for good reasons.
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 10:25:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

GGA wrote:
> That's nice...but....
>
> "The good news is that these extra channels are free of charge as long as a
> viewer pays the initial cost to install a setup box," said Chen.
>
> Wonder how much that will be. But then again, Bob forgot to mention that. So
> although the box might be free the installation might be enormous.
> Actually, I dont care what Tawain is doing with there broadcasting since
> they are not broadcasting HD.
> My question is though, is there any place in the world where COFDM is being
> used for HDTV? If so, where?
>
> Scott
> "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:CV9vc.19998$be.11488@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
Well we have a USB device that receives COFDM DVB-T that is made in
Taiwan and it cost us $65 and you just plug it into your laptop. We have
a PCMCIA card that cost $120, a set top box that cost us $99, a set top
box with LCD screen that works with your analog or digital TV set and
also plugs into your cigarette lighter in the car $300 plus (don't know
exact) and we have an after market vehicle install kit that has a fancy
diversity receiver chip that supports up to 6 antennas. This cost $225
plus install or you could just stick it under the seat but you will see
the wires.

HDTV is being done with COFDM DVB-T in Australia since two years ago.
The government in OZ has MANDATED HDTV and has also MANDATED a certain
number of hours of HDTV per week and year. This only kicked in the last
few months however. They triplecast in OZ meaning that they are
broadcasting analog TV, SDTV and HDTV. They also have limited severely
datacasting by law.

HDTV is being done in Japan using COFDM ISDB-T starting last December
and is six months old. It is only available in three cities but they
have already sold over a million receivers of which 92% are integrated
HDTV sets.

They are going to broadcast to cell phones and other mobile devices at
the same time they are broadcasting HDTV.

Having sold a million expensive integrated HDTV sets already in six
months and with only three cities online it is going to be amazing to
see how fast HDTV takes over Japan. It is already incredible.

France which is not broadcasting digitally yet is considering doing HDTV
with COFDM DVB-T.
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 12:06:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:8wcvc.20239$be.2737@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Walmart has 19 HDTV monitors (no receiver) on their website two of which
> are under $1000. One was 17" and the other a RCA 32" HDTV Monitor

Many Walmarts are now selling a Sanyo integrated HDTV (including both OTA
and cable HD tuners) for about $750. It is not advertised on their Web site
yet.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=...
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 2:33:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in news:Ep9vc.18373$Tn6.16098
@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

>
> Our digital transition failure in the US has to do with our modulation.
>

What failure?

I'm getting HD off the air from the local NBC and CBS affiliates and the
local PBS station. Additionally, I'm getting SD off the air from the
local ABC affiliate (and anywhere from 1 to 4 SD signals from the local
PBS station depending on the time of day). The NBC and CBS stations are
about 5 miles away, while the CBS and ABC affiliates are about 48 miles
away.

I'm getting the ABC and WB HD signals from a couple of not-so-local
stations (75 miles away), in addition to an additional HD NBC feed (80
miles away) and an additional HD CBS feed (75 miles away).

The local FOX affiliate is broadcasting very low-power SD signal that I
can get occasionally, but they've already announced that they'll be
converting to HD and boosting the power by the start of the NFL season -
and I'll be able to get the FOX HD feed off DirecTV soon.

I hooked my old Mits HD satellite receiver to my sister's HD monitor over
the weekend. She was able to get the local PBS's station HD signal with a
three foot long piece of coax cable attached to the receiver's antenna
input... I hooked up her fixed position Terk TV-55 antenna (a notoriously
_BAD_ antenna) that's screwed to the side of her house below the roof-
line, she was picking up HD NBC, CBS, and WB signals - not the local
ones, but the ones from 75-80 miles away, with the antenna's "amplifier"
switch turned off.

As I mentioned before, the relatively slow uptake of HD is primarily due
to the lack of material, cost of receivers (yes, including the $6
royalty), stations not wanting to spend the money to upgrade their
equipment, ignorance, and FUD spreaders. As the volume picks up, the
price of receivers will come down (as it is already doing).

Oh, and the stations that are reluctant to spend the money to install HD
equipment are going to be reluctant to spend the money to install any HD
equipment, regardless of modulation method. And not only do they not want
to spend the money to upgrade their current broadcasting equipment, they
most assuredly do not want to spend money of leasing/buying real estate
so that they can spend even _more_ money on repeaters.
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 2:37:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in news:CV9vc.19998$be.11488
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

>
> And the direct quote is...
> "TTV offers a FreeView setup box and a pen-sized antenna to enable
> viewers to receive all channels available in digital quality."
>
> Since we work with three Taiwanese companies that produce a PCMCIA card,
> a USB device, a STB with LCD screen and an after market car install kit
> with a diversity chipset made in France I can tell you that a pen sized
> antenna will work well in all the coverage areas of these TV stations.
>
> And I leave it to readers to decide what the quote from the article
> above means.
>

Again, how is this article on-topic for an HDTV newsgroup?

And why would any of us think that any TV reception in a car be a good
idea? I get nervous enough with the "drivers" around me talking on cell
phones; I'd seriously consider staying off the roads as much as possible if
they could watch Oprah while driving!
Anonymous
June 5, 2004 6:11:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Mark Crispin" <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote in message

> Meanwhile, HDTV is available throughout the USA, because we selected the
> superior 8VSB modulation system which has the bandwidth and covers the
> long distances needed in North America. And now we have HDTVs available
> at Wal-Mart for well under $1000.

And ATSC STB receivers at Wal-Mart for $199.
Sears was selling for $149 last week.
!