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Help me configure a hi-end system to NOT run Vista.

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January 28, 2007 6:25:09 AM

Hi, I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack! Didya miss me? With every bullet so far? 8O

Sorry I had to take off like that but the life of Capt. April is far from boring. Had to take care of some urgent business in a faraway land. To use the old line: I could tell you what I was doing and where but then I'd have to kill you...

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo...

I'm gone for a little while and in my absence all hell breaks loose. All sorts of news on the CPU front, Penryns a-coming round the mountain when they come, K8Ls "claiming" that they process data faster than Starfleet's main computer core... never a dull moment around here.

However, this brings me to my current set of questions and they all center around what happens to my upcoming PC buy after the nasty little revelation of Vista's totalitarian DRM enabling/disabling/blurring/obfuscating/revoking nonsense.

Whether or not Mr. Guttman's Analysis is 100% accurate, the bottom line is that Vista's DRM policies have me running for the hills.

Therefore, let's wipe the slate clean of my previous assumptions of building a megasystem around Vista 64-bit and let's get to the nitty-gritty:

1) I have to send my current system to that great silicon playground in the sky by this summer and upgrade to a very high-end PC.

2) My job requires me to run a large and ever-changing number of varied apps and the only thing that they have in common is that they run on XP and likely will for the next 3-4 years.

3) I am open to switchbooting but not to Mac OS-X.

4) I am not going to install an OS that sends coded messages 30 times a second to my speakers fuzzing out the sound whenever I'm playing an mp3 version of my grandfather singing opera. So NO DRM-ANYTHING ON THIS ENTIRE SYSTEM!

Therefore...

Let's configure a dream system to fit these parameters. Here are the basics:

1) Double Quad-Core would be nice. I need lots of VROOM and I love the rumble of a V-8(core) under the hood.

2) Price/Performance is the only criterion. I couldn't care less if the CPU is stamped AMD, Intel or K-Tel.

3) I need a minimum of 8GB RAM on Day One and I'd love the option of adding another 8GB later down the road for a total of 16GB RAM. I'm currently running XP Pro 32-bit but am open to switching to XP's 64-bit version.

4) I guess I'm gonna have to live without DX10. No prob. But I want the most capable video card available that will mesh with this system.

5) I'm not into high end gaming at all. The system is primarily for general purpose office app and image/video manipulation/editing and secondarily as a media playback device. I want the killer video card so that I can squeeze the best out of every video pixel. No HDTV necessary.

6) 160GB Raptor for OS, 2x750GB 7200.10s for data. Backup is more complicated and has been the subject of another thread in the HD section in December, so let's leave that out of this equation.

7) This is a long term system so I expect to get at least three good years out of it before I have to rip its guts out and massively upgrade.

EIGHT... avoiding the automatic smiley face) Aircooled. I'm open to TECs. System noise is not a factor as the case is in the next room.

9) Already have a massive full-tower case that I can use to store sides of beef.

10) The rest of the specs are fairly middle of the road average.

Therefore (again)...

The choice of components are firmly intertwined with the choice(s) of OS. I can switchboot between XP Pro and Linux, but do I have to? Does Linux or any of its flavours really give me anything that XP Pro doesn't under this scenario? Should I not stick to just XP alone for the next three years and really the only truly innovative thing I'm giving up to Vista is the Hybrid Drive stuff (which seems to not be as effective as it was first touted to be). As for Aero, I'd like to shoot an Aero through the heart of the moron that sneaked all this DRM nightmare junk into Vista.

BTW, am I correct in the assumption that this DRM draconic brobdingnagian labyrinth was snuck onto Vista release version and was not around the betas? Nice one, Bill. Sneak it in at the last minute so that the word of mouth can't spread before you've suckered in your early adopters. I'm sure that if you shave Bill's head, you'll find 666 etched on his skull. :roll:

Therefore (for the third time)... ye assembled masses of Olympian PC configurative wisdom, I beseech thee bestow upon thy humble servant thine insights and Delphic Silicon revelations.

DELETED
January 28, 2007 6:47:45 AM

Quote:
Hi, I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack! Didya miss me? With every bullet so far? 8O

Sorry I had to take off like that but the life of Capt. April is far from boring. Had to take care of some urgent business in a faraway land. To use the old line: I could tell you what I was doing and where but then I'd have to kill you...

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo...

I'm gone for a little while and in my absence all hell breaks loose. All sorts of news on the CPU front, Penryns a-coming round the mountain when they come, K8Ls "claiming" that they process data faster than Starfleet's main computer core... never a dull moment around here.

However, this brings me to my current set of questions and they all center around what happens to my upcoming PC buy after the nasty little revelation of Vista's totalitarian DRM enabling/disabling/blurring/obfuscating/revoking nonsense.

Whether or not Mr. Guttman's Analysis is 100% accurate, the bottom line is that Vista's DRM policies have me running for the hills.

Therefore, let's wipe the slate clean of my previous assumptions of building a megasystem around Vista 64-bit and let's get to the nitty-gritty:

1) I have to send my current system to that great silicon playground in the sky by this summer and upgrade to a very high-end PC.

2) My job requires me to run a large and ever-changing number of varied apps and the only thing that they have in common is that they run on XP and likely will for the next 3-4 years.

3) I am open to switchbooting but not to Mac OS-X.

4) I am not going to install an OS that sends coded messages 30 times a second to my speakers fuzzing out the sound whenever I'm playing an mp3 version of my grandfather singing opera. So NO DRM-ANYTHING ON THIS ENTIRE SYSTEM!

Therefore...

Let's configure a dream system to fit these parameters. Here are the basics:

1) Double Quad-Core would be nice. I need lots of VROOM and I love the rumble of a V-8(core) under the hood.

2) Price/Performance is the only criterion. I couldn't care less if the CPU is stamped AMD, Intel or K-Tel.

3) I need a minimum of 8GB RAM on Day One and I'd love the option of adding another 8GB later down the road for a total of 16GB RAM. I'm currently running XP Pro 32-bit but am open to switching to XP's 64-bit version.

4) I guess I'm gonna have to live without DX10. No prob. But I want the most capable video card available that will mesh with this system.

5) I'm not into high end gaming at all. The system is primarily for general purpose office app and image/video manipulation/editing and secondarily as a media playback device. I want the killer video card so that I can squeeze the best out of every video pixel. No HDTV necessary.

6) 160GB Raptor for OS, 2x750GB 7200.10s for data. Backup is more complicated and has been the subject of another thread in the HD section in December, so let's leave that out of this equation.

7) This is a long term system so I expect to get at least three good years out of it before I have to rip its guts out and massively upgrade.

EIGHT... avoiding the automatic smiley face) Aircooled. I'm open to TECs. System noise is not a factor as the case is in the next room.

9) Already have a massive full-tower case that I can use to store sides of beef.

10) The rest of the specs are fairly middle of the road average.

Therefore (again)...

The choice of components are firmly intertwined with the choice(s) of OS. I can switchboot between XP Pro and Linux, but do I have to? Does Linux or any of its flavours really give me anything that XP Pro doesn't under this scenario? Should I not stick to just XP alone for the next three years and really the only truly innovative thing I'm giving up to Vista is the Hybrid Drive stuff (which seems to not be as effective as it was first touted to be). As for Aero, I'd like to shoot an Aero through the heart of the moron that sneaked all this DRM nightmare junk into Vista.

BTW, am I correct in the assumption that this DRM draconic brobdingnagian labyrinth was snuck onto Vista release version and was not around the betas? Nice one, Bill. Sneak it in at the last minute so that the word of mouth can't spread before you've suckered in your early adopters. I'm sure that if you shave Bill's head, you'll find 666 etched on his skull. :roll:

Therefore (for the third time)... ye assembled masses of Olympian PC configurative wisdom, I beseech thee bestow upon thy humble servant thine insights and Delphic Silicon revelations.

And if you're really nice to me, I'll talk dirty for ya and post some more salacious animated gifs.

:twisted:



Welcome back, I guess.


DRM is only a problem for HD content from BluRay, HDDVD. That means that if you by a PC-based BluRay recorder and use it for data it's just like having a very large backup system.

If you want to put a BD/HDDVD disc in your PC and play to your monitor or a HDMI TV, then DRM is in effect.

I buy my TVs bigger so that I don't need to watch movies on the LCD. Besides you also missed that both schemes have been cracked by the same person.
January 28, 2007 8:02:19 AM

Um... where can that crack be obtained?
Related resources
January 28, 2007 9:33:54 AM

You cannot avoid paying more for your hardware even if you dont run Vista. ALL the hardware manufacturers have signed up with the Vista DRM program and will be passing on the costs of making their hardware DRM friendly on to you. If they dont do this microsoft will just revoke their drivers so their hardware wont run in Vista.

This is just the begining folks. Next up the hardware manufacturers will incorporate TPM modules into all hardware. Once that passes a certain penetration point you wont be able to buy software or premium content WITHOUT having a TPM module in your PC.

Say goodbye to fair use and your privacy no matter what OS you use and hello to more expensive hardware

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module

The era of the general purpose computer is coming to an end.
January 28, 2007 10:07:22 AM

Quote:
And if you're really nice to me, I'll talk dirty for ya and post some more salacious animated gifs.

:twisted:

Will this do :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Deleted
January 28, 2007 10:08:57 AM

@ Baron:

Geez, thanks for the enthusiastic welcome. I was really expecting a ticker tape parade on Broadway followed by a leisurely cruise on the East River on a yacht staffed by nude blondes feeding me grapes and Cristal, but I guess your welcome will have to do! :lol: 

I, like PC Analyst, am unfamiliar with the "crack" and hope that whoever stated he disabled all the DRM in Vista was programming it and not smoking it. :D 

As I mentioned in my post, I couldn't give the bollocks of a sundried squirrel for HDTV. My concern was in the deliberate degradation of signal of "unapproved" mp3, avi, etc. From Guttman's article:

Alongside the all-or-nothing approach of disabling output, Vista requires that any interface that provides high-quality output degrade the signal quality that passes through it if premium content is present. This is done through a “constrictor” that downgrades the signal to a much lower-quality one, then up- scales it again back to the original spec, but with a significant loss in quality. So if you're using an expensive new LCD display fed from a high- quality DVI signal on your video card and there's protected content present, the picture you're going to see will be, as the spec puts it, “slightly fuzzy”, a bit like a 10-year-old CRT monitor that you picked up for $2 at a yard sale (see the Quotes for real-world examples of this). In fact the specification specifically still allows for old VGA analog outputs, but even that's only because disallowing them would upset too many existing owners of analog monitors. In the future even analog VGA output will probably have to be disabled. The only thing that seems to be explicitly allowed is the extremely low-quality TV-out, provided that Macrovision is applied to it.

The same deliberate degrading of playback quality applies to audio, with the audio being downgraded to sound (from the spec) “fuzzy with less detail” [Note G].


This is what I'm really concerned with. Let's take the specific example I originally posted (and disregard any other allegedly "illegal" content). I managed to dig up some mp3 versions of light opera recordings my grandfather made in the '30s. The record company that issued this 78 rpm has long since turned to dust, thus there is no one to "administer" the rights. Besides, it's my own freakin' grandfather so I would think that gives me some "rights" of my own!!! I managed to "clean up" the pops and crackles on these songs a bit and enjoy them often. Now, if I install Vista, the OS will intervene and degrade the sound quality to the equivalent of a 1962 7-transistor Japanese portable radio? The hell it will. I'll spend the rest of my days using Vista Install DVD's as targets for my Mossberg 935 12 gauge magnum shotgun. :twisted:

@ Wombat2:

I am not specifically questioning the extra cost of hardware. My basic query is to determine the optimum hardware configuration that will allow me to use an OS that lacks Vista's degradation functions. The purchase will be made in approx. six months and is to last for a minimum of three years. After that time, the PC landscape will likely have changed to such a degree that it will be a whole new ballgame anyway.
January 28, 2007 11:06:10 AM

It won't, since MP3's don't even have this kind of DRM support. If your making the content and you're not adding protection, then it won't even matter. The degradation protection is also only used for protected video IF you don't fully HDCP supporting hardware. This is better than the other option of not having any video at all, which would be the case for any other OS that has no implemented the same protection as in Vista.

The audio protection is mainly to shutdown (if requested by the media) the sound card's digital output.

Basically the article is complete fud. Here's a list of mistakes from just the first section:

-SACD doesn't play on any PC, not just Vista and doesn't output on SPDIF even with HT equipment
-the Samsung 275T supports HDCP and therefore would support protected media with Vista and the right video card
-the Samsung 460PN also supports HDCP (and it was first released in June, 2005 so it's obsolete )
-ASIO support sound cards in Vista already exist

Personally based on the mistakes in his article, I think he's never used Vista or any recent HT equipment.
January 28, 2007 11:21:26 AM

If you want to stay with XP,then you will have to use Windows XP PRO 64 Bit edition to be able to use more than 4GB of Ram.The main problem with this is lack of driver support.I don`t know which version of Photoshop you have,but at least up to CS 1,that program would use up to half of the available ram.I had 4GB in my old system,but only 3.37 GB was available.I have read that this varies somewhat,but that is about average.Photoshop CS2,can use up to 3.5 GB of ram,if I remember correctly.I read somewhere that CS2 ran well on XP PRO 64 BIT.I think it might have been on PCWorld`s web site,but I don`t remember for sure.Some applications ran well and others did not.
January 28, 2007 11:55:09 AM

@accord99:

This looks like a job for... FUDMAN. Faster Than a Speeding Methhead, More Powerful Than a K8L prototype, Able to Leap Tall Benchmarks at a Single Bound!

I'd read a few zillion posts around the net supporting and attacking Guttman, so let's just boil down the essential question to this:

Mr. X has a hard drive packed with mp3 and avi-type content that he downloaded with his friend the blue Dendrobates during a torrent-ial rain. Once Mr. X takes the Vista plunge does he have a hard drive full of playable content or Recycle Bin stuffing?

@HERSHEY:

I'm running PS CS2 and CS3 currently in Beta is supposed to have some ungodly high RAM access limit. The advantage of being a good boy and paying my rightful dues to Adobe is that when CS3 goes to release, I can upgrade immediately. Therefore, once XP 64 is on the PC, I should be able to allocate a whole whack of the minimum 8GB RAM to PS. Correct me if I'm wrong.

DELETED
January 28, 2007 12:08:18 PM

Quote:
Mr. X has a hard drive packed with mp3 and avi-type content that he downloaded with his friend the blue Dendrobates during a torrent-ial rain. Once Mr. X takes the Vista plunge does he have a hard drive full of playable content or Recycle Bin stuffing?


The former.
Synergy6
January 28, 2007 12:10:20 PM

Ello!! I Want to make SexyTime with all the Plow Girls in this Thread. Wow wow wee waa!

Quote Me In SexyTime with Plow Girl
Quote:
"You have big bollocks? Can I touch them?"


Lol, What a Degenetrative Thread.
January 28, 2007 12:12:06 PM

I use Photoshop CS1.I read about CS2 on Adobe`s site.I`m not sure about CS3.I have the same reservations about Vista.I too think about XP 64 Bit.I take it that CS3 runs on XP PRO 32 Bit?I wish more driver support was available for XP 64 Bit.I would like to have tried it.
January 28, 2007 12:12:32 PM

Quote:
Mr. X has a hard drive packed with mp3 and avi-type content that he downloaded with his friend the blue Dendrobates during a torrent-ial rain. Once Mr. X takes the Vista plunge does he have a hard drive full of playable content or Recycle Bin stuffing?


The former.
Synergy6

Therefore, are we to assume that accord99 is correct and Mr. Guttman is doing his University of Auckland a great disservice by spreading heaping dollops of FUD instead of Rewena Dough? :?
January 28, 2007 12:19:00 PM

DELETED

Quote:
I use Photoshop CS1.I read about CS2 on Adobe`s site.I`m not sure about CS3.I have the same reservations about Vista.I too think about XP 64 Bit.I take it that CS3 runs on XP PRO 32 Bit?I wish more driver support was available for XP 64 Bit.I would like to have tried it.


Not quite clear what you mean. I'm using CS2 on XP Pro SP2 32 bit fully updated to the minute off the microsoft.com site. No problemos. Although I try to steer clear of beta sw, I strongly doubt that Adobe would restrict CS3 to only run on XP 64 which is a tiny minority of the XP market. I understand (and again I may be in error) that CS3 or a version thereof can be installed on XP 64 to access a few zillion terabytes of RAM.
January 28, 2007 12:30:51 PM

Sorry,I must have misread what you said.I thought you were trying CS3 in Beta.I agree with you,I don`t want to deal with Beta software either.I have enough trouble with retail as it is.
January 28, 2007 12:36:57 PM

On the RAMdisk it depends on what you're using it for and who you talk to. Right on that NewEgg page, one guy says that he gets 20% to 33% faster than a Raptor on writing and nothing on copying. Some other benchmarks claim double or greater speed. The bottom line is this. A 74GB Raptor costs about $25 more than that RAMdisk and it already has 74GB of capacity vs. the RAMdisk's Zero. By the time you fill the RAMdisk up with RAM (each GB of which costs very close to the price of the Raptor), you could have purchased several Raptors, and you'd still have about 1% of total storage capacity. I don't think that 20% to 33% is worth the trouble and the expense.

DELETED
January 28, 2007 12:39:48 PM

Quote:
I'm running PS CS2 and CS3 currently in Beta is supposed to have some ungodly high RAM access limit. The advantage of being a good boy and paying my rightful dues to Adobe is that when CS3 goes to release, I can upgrade immediately. Therefore, once XP 64 is on the PC, I should be able to allocate a whole whack of the minimum 8GB RAM to PS. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Greets Capt. No 64 bit Photoshop yet.

http://blogs.adobe.com/scottbyer/
January 28, 2007 12:53:06 PM

Welcome back CaptRobertApril! Any uncanny comments today that I can add to my sig?? :twisted:
January 28, 2007 12:54:43 PM

@HERSHEY:

Megadittos. Beta is bad news. The last thing I need is somebody's half-assed wanker experimental sw running amuk on my system.

@kukito

Hey, salutations, sup, aloha, howdy, yo, geezet, wassup Kukito! Tanx for the link. It's nice to get the scoop from an Adobe insider:

...on Windows XP 64-bit edition, a 32-bit application gets nearly 4GB of address space.

Well, it seems like my 8GB are gonna be enough. Allocate the full 4GB to PS CS2-3 and the rest to OS et al. It aint the cat's a$$ but it's better than what I'm runnin' now.

DELETED
January 28, 2007 1:00:51 PM

Quote:
Welcome back CaptRobertApril! Any uncanny comments today that I can add to my sig?? :twisted:


Thanks for the honor of the sig, minim! (IamnotworthyIamnotworthyIamnotworthy)

Well, you gotta gimme a topic. Then I'll dig into my depository of uncanniness and see what I can provide for ya! :D 
January 28, 2007 1:03:04 PM

Capt April,
If you do try XP 64 Bit,would you let me know how it runs for you?.I`m still considering it.
January 28, 2007 1:14:43 PM

Quote:
Welcome back CaptRobertApril! Any uncanny comments today that I can add to my sig?? :twisted:


Thanks for the honor of the sig, minim! (IamnotworthyIamnotworthyIamnotworthy)

Well, you gotta gimme a topic. Then I'll dig into my depository of uncanniness and see what I can provide for ya! :D 

fair enough!

thinking caps on!
January 28, 2007 1:28:52 PM

Quote:
Capt April,
If you do try XP 64 Bit,would you let me know how it runs for you?.I`m still considering it.
I run both XP Media Center 2005 and XP Professional x64 and I can tell you from experience it runs noticably faster. The problems lie in bad driver support, and the only games that currently support 64-bit natively are Far Cry, Half-Life2, Half-Life2: Lost Coast, and UT2004(Sound did not work with my Creative X-Fi however). Far Cry would be the best title for 64-bit as it does gain some performance, but everything else performs the same and as I've said, driver and software support is very limited. I'd say wait until Vista for 64-bit as Windows XP is not a good 64-bit platform.
January 28, 2007 2:11:48 PM

Ok, I have a lot of the same reservations as you about Vista and its DRM. I have a lot of old records, tapes, and such which apparently won't be allowed to be heard, not to menton many medical programs, files and such. My present thought is to try XP64 Pro. Yes, I know its had driver problems in the past, but those were mainly because few companies were interested in writing 64 bit drivers at all, since the majority of the world was 32 bit. The only real question I have on XP64 is whether or not it can accept DX10. If it can, I'll be sold on it.

About all those pics that are being displayed. Very enticing and distracting. I'll probably have some interesting dreams tonight for a change. Glad the nurses don't display themselves like that. I'd never get any work done. Either that, or the guy who came in for a vasectomy would loose more than he bargained for.
January 28, 2007 2:40:27 PM

@Datman:

Hellya on the Raptor. A 150GB for about $200. That's the way to fly and that's what I'd be using for my OS and scratch disk etc. partitions.

That aint buttjiggle, that's damn near pr0n! Bring it on. At least you'll be the one gettin' banned from here, not me! :twisted:

@HERSHEY:

I'm not doing any changin' or messin' around with my current system. It's running just fine and I intend to leave it that way. However, I will be configuring and buying a whole new top-end system this summer and that's the one that I'm doubting running Vista on.

@minim3:

I've got the key to the depository on the desk.

@Heyyou27:

From what I've heard XP Pro 64 is a good, solid OS if you have the hardware and software that fits it. The drivers are a huge hassle, but then again, if I'm gonna be configuring my summer system from scratch then I could definitely research the driver situation and purchase the appropriate hardware that has the 64 bit drivers. Again, games are not an issue for me.

@Sailer:

I have heard nothing at all about XP 64 ever working with DX10, so I would think that's a serious bummer. The medical files if they're imaging, should work fine with Vista. It's the mp3 and avi that are supposed to have trouble. However, accord99 and Synergy6 are in agreement that the mp3 and avi will run fine on Vista, so they disagree with Guttman.

DELETED

BTW, remind me to not get any urology surgery done in Nevada...
January 28, 2007 3:25:30 PM

Quote:
@ Baron:

Geez, thanks for the enthusiastic welcome. I was really expecting a ticker tape parade on Broadway followed by a leisurely cruise on the East River on a yacht staffed by nude blondes feeding me grapes and Cristal, but I guess your welcome will have to do! :lol: 

I, like PC Analyst, am unfamiliar with the "crack" and hope that whoever stated he disabled all the DRM in Vista was programming it and not smoking it. :D 

As I mentioned in my post, I couldn't give the bollocks of a sundried squirrel for HDTV. My concern was in the deliberate degradation of signal of "unapproved" mp3, avi, etc. From Guttman's article:

Alongside the all-or-nothing approach of disabling output, Vista requires that any interface that provides high-quality output degrade the signal quality that passes through it if premium content is present. This is done through a “constrictor” that downgrades the signal to a much lower-quality one, then up- scales it again back to the original spec, but with a significant loss in quality. So if you're using an expensive new LCD display fed from a high- quality DVI signal on your video card and there's protected content present, the picture you're going to see will be, as the spec puts it, “slightly fuzzy”, a bit like a 10-year-old CRT monitor that you picked up for $2 at a yard sale (see the Quotes for real-world examples of this). In fact the specification specifically still allows for old VGA analog outputs, but even that's only because disallowing them would upset too many existing owners of analog monitors. In the future even analog VGA output will probably have to be disabled. The only thing that seems to be explicitly allowed is the extremely low-quality TV-out, provided that Macrovision is applied to it.

The same deliberate degrading of playback quality applies to audio, with the audio being downgraded to sound (from the spec) “fuzzy with less detail” [Note G].


This is what I'm really concerned with. Let's take the specific example I originally posted (and disregard any other allegedly "illegal" content). I managed to dig up some mp3 versions of light opera recordings my grandfather made in the '30s. The record company that issued this 78 rpm has long since turned to dust, thus there is no one to "administer" the rights. Besides, it's my own freakin' grandfather so I would think that gives me some "rights" of my own!!! I managed to "clean up" the pops and crackles on these songs a bit and enjoy them often. Now, if I install Vista, the OS will intervene and degrade the sound quality to the equivalent of a 1962 7-transistor Japanese portable radio? The hell it will. I'll spend the rest of my days using Vista Install DVD's as targets for my Mossberg 935 12 gauge magnum shotgun. :twisted:

@ Wombat2:

I am not specifically questioning the extra cost of hardware. My basic query is to determine the optimum hardware configuration that will allow me to use an OS that lacks Vista's degradation functions. The purchase will be made in approx. six months and is to last for a minimum of three years. After that time, the PC landscape will likely have changed to such a degree that it will be a whole new ballgame anyway.




WOw, I wasn't aware that MP3s would fall under the DRM umbrella. If I were to have Vista and burn a CD to MP3, it better not give me some degraded sound. I guess what that means is that when you rip CDs you have to choose to "protect" it.

No wonder I hate Hollywood. We put them in Rolls', they put us in our place. Boycott.
January 28, 2007 5:16:32 PM

Sailor,
It took me a long time to find it,but according to a Microsoft forum,XP will not support DX 10.It stated that contrary to many rumors,it won`t because of significant changes to the graphics API and driver model.I was hoping it would too.
January 28, 2007 5:35:00 PM

Quote:
WOw, I wasn't aware that MP3s would fall under the DRM umbrella. If I were to have Vista and burn a CD to MP3, it better not give me some degraded sound. I guess what that means is that when you rip CDs you have to choose to "protect" it.

No wonder I hate Hollywood. We put them in Rolls', they put us in our place. Boycott.


Well the jury is still out, as Synergy6 and accord99 have come down hard on their positions that it does not affect mp3 and that Guttman is full of crap. I don't think it's a very difficult experiment for anyone with Vista currently installed to attempt. Just grab an mp3 and an avi which have come from "questionable sources" (tsk tsk) and play it. See what happens!

Does anyone have any first hand experience with this? Please chime in.

Also, can anyone answer whether this strongarm DRM feature was in the beta Vistas?

And BTW, yeah, I get a little pi$$ed off too when a musician is bitching about not getting his full royalties in his Lear Jet on his way to his $40 million mansion in Tahiti. :p 

Quote:
Sailor,
It took me a long time to find it,but according to a Microsoft forum,XP will not support DX 10.It stated that contrary to many rumors,it won`t because of significant changes to the graphics API and driver model.I was hoping it would too.


Yeah, it's pretty definite. XP will be stuck on DX9 forever.
January 28, 2007 6:58:21 PM

Capt April,
I`m really disappointed in you.It`s not just Tahiti.There is Paris,London,Hawaii and several other places they have pay for.Do you realize how many 11 and 12 year olds allowances and collage funds they have to take to pay for all these things besides,if they all went to collage,who would be left to take out their garbage and cook thier meals and shine their shoes?Please have some compasion for for all the RIAA and Hollywood Execs.
January 28, 2007 7:29:46 PM

Quote:
WOw, I wasn't aware that MP3s would fall under the DRM umbrella. If I were to have Vista and burn a CD to MP3, it better not give me some degraded sound. I guess what that means is that when you rip CDs you have to choose to "protect" it.

No wonder I hate Hollywood. We put them in Rolls', they put us in our place. Boycott.


Well the jury is still out, as Synergy6 and accord99 have come down hard on their positions that it does not affect mp3 and that Guttman is full of crap. I don't think it's a very difficult experiment for anyone with Vista currently installed to attempt. Just grab an mp3 and an avi which have come from "questionable sources" (tsk tsk) and play it. See what happens!

Does anyone have any first hand experience with this? Please chime in.

Also, can anyone answer whether this strongarm DRM feature was in the beta Vistas?

And BTW, yeah, I get a little pi$$ed off too when a musician is bitching about not getting his full royalties in his Lear Jet on his way to his $40 million mansion in Tahiti. :p 

Quote:
Sailor,
It took me a long time to find it,but according to a Microsoft forum,XP will not support DX 10.It stated that contrary to many rumors,it won`t because of significant changes to the graphics API and driver model.I was hoping it would too.


Yeah, it's pretty definite. XP will be stuck on DX9 forever.


My Vista Beta expired, but DRM is built in. I stopped buying CDs because of that. The record companies are even worse. They put out crap for $19 and wonder why people don't want to pay.

I will be moving to Vista though since it SHOULDN'T be able to prohibit "unsigned" MP3s. I don't want to use BluRay or HDDVD on my PC so I'm safe there.

I'm just debating now whether I will get X64. I probably will just because of my RAM requirements.
January 28, 2007 8:08:21 PM

Quote:
Capt April,
I`m really disappointed in you.It`s not just Tahiti.There is Paris,London,Hawaii and several other places they have pay for.Do you realize how many 11 and 12 year olds allowances and collage funds they have to take to pay for all these things besides,if they all went to collage,who would be left to take out their garbage and cook thier meals and shine their shoes?Please have some compasion for for all the RIAA and Hollywood Execs.


Look, I'm a "content provider" as well. I have (relatively meager) royalties that are paid on my work which is out there in the world. And I'm also aware that you can download my work from a few zillion sites. Would I like to get my hands on that money from all the people that are getting my stuff for free? Hell yeah. Do I think it's likely or even feasible? Hell no.

I get an immense amount of really great feedback online, and I damn well know that most of them haven't contributed a cent to my wallet. But I'm happy to get the feedback, and I have had contact with a significant amount of people who have downloaded my work and been so impressed by it that they have told their friends to buy it. So I figure in that case, I actually got sales that I ordinarily wouldn't have had.

Furthermore, the overall demographic of the "downloader" is not a match for the marketing that's done, so in other words, most "downloaders" would not be buying my stuff anyway. So if they get it and appreciate it, (and tell their friends) then it's a win/win situation for all.

I dunno why RIAA/MPAA can't just come around to the same realization. But I guess that most of the people in this field are greedier than I am.

Quote:

My Vista Beta expired, but DRM is built in. I stopped buying CDs because of that. The record companies are even worse. They put out crap for $19 and wonder why people don't want to pay.

I will be moving to Vista though since it SHOULDN'T be able to prohibit "unsigned" MP3s. I don't want to use BluRay or HDDVD on my PC so I'm safe there.

I'm just debating now whether I will get X64. I probably will just because of my RAM requirements.


It's real clear in that Adobe blog linked earlier that XP64 lets a 32 bit app access 4GB RAM. That is not bad, even for Adobe CS. Should be able to work with that!
January 28, 2007 8:14:25 PM

Quote:
I will be moving to Vista though since it SHOULDN'T be able to prohibit "unsigned" MP3s. I don't want to use BluRay or HDDVD on my PC so I'm safe there.


Yeah, I won't be moving to Blu-Ray or HD-DVD on my computer OR in my living room, either. I just bought a new DVD player with an upscaler built in (for less than $100) and I think it looks just fine on the big screen TV.
I was at Circuit City the other day, they had Blu-Ray and HD-DVD systems running and I can't tell any difference between the new formats and a regular DVD with an upscaler. So why spend $400 for a new player and pay twice as much for movies in a new format?
And why pay that kind of money to watch HD content on a 19, 20 or 21-inch computer screen? I'd rather watch it on my 42-inch HDTV.
I won't be moving to Vista either until after that first service pack comes out. Did you hear that apparently Microsoft has "rushed" the service pack development? I lost the link but the first service pack may come out as early as November -- less than a year after Vista's market release? If that's true .... well, that just doesn't sound encouraging, does it?
January 28, 2007 8:35:49 PM

Their explaination of getting the service pack out so quickly was to try to demonstrate to the consumer that they are 100% committed in forcing themselves upon us.
January 28, 2007 8:36:29 PM

Capt April,
That`s pretty good.I`m still laughing.The funniest part about it though is,you`re probably right.I can`t remember the Musician now,but when all this started withn the RIAA,some talk show host asked him how he felt about all this,and he said,"I don`t care.If someone downloads my songs,I`ve made my money so I`m happy"Your right,there is too much greed.I read a story somewhere a couple of years ago about a Musician that had to file a lawsuit against the RIAA because they wern`t paying him his royalties!All he got out of it I think is the courts allowed him out of his contract.I think if they charged less,alot more people would be willing to pay.
January 28, 2007 8:55:16 PM

Quote:
Capt April,
That`s pretty good.I`m still laughing.The funniest part about it though is,you`re probably right.I can`t remember the Musician now,but when all this started withn the RIAA,some talk show host asked him how he felt about all this,and he said,"I don`t care.If someone downloads my songs,I`ve made my money so I`m happy"Your right,there is too much greed.I read a story somewhere a couple of years ago about a Musician that had to file a lawsuit against the RIAA because they wern`t paying him his royalties!All he got out of it I think is the courts allowed him out of his contract.I think if they charged less,alot more people would be willing to pay.


The industry is rife with underpayments and nonpayments. Just one of the famous cases is Art Buchwald vs. Paramount. He was a famous humorist who wrote Coming To America with Eddie Murphy. From Wiki:

Paramount claimed, and provided accounting evidence to support the claim, that despite the movie's US$350 million in revenues, it had earned no net profit, according to the definition of "net profit" in Buchwald's contract, and hence Buchwald was owed nothing: a classic example of Hollywood accounting.

$350 million and not a penny in profit. Damn! That must be some studio expense account they have there!

So they bleed the consumer dry and don't even pay the content creator. Nice, huh? Lovely people... 8O

Anyway, back to the thread. Can anyone who is currently using Vista Release version verify that they can or cannot play an mp3 or avi at full quality?
January 28, 2007 9:07:20 PM

I played the UT3 new HD trailer, which is Unprotected, it didn't seem any worse.

I've uninstalled Vista, not because I don't like it, but because of horrid driver support for what I have.

I'll be re installing it once decent 8800 drivers are out.
January 28, 2007 9:44:17 PM

Quote:

Anyway, back to the thread. Can anyone who is currently using Vista Release version verify that they can or cannot play an mp3 or avi at full quality?

I have it. MP3s and typical AVIs are completely unaffected, as are copied DVD movies. In fact, with the new Vista sound system with better resampling, MP3s should sound better in Vista with most soundcards.
January 28, 2007 9:45:08 PM

Well, in accounting the books must balance (the joys of double-entry book keeping), but that's not the same as no profit. They could be right based on "Hollywood economics" instead. In Economic accounting rather than the normal variation, you can include the "normal" profit as a cost. "Normal" profit is hard to define and impossible to calculate, so it could be a useful tool for them. (In simple terms, "normal" profit is the profit required to keep a factor of production in its current use, i.e. the opportunity cost it is taking on by not being in another sector)

Synergy6
January 28, 2007 10:04:06 PM

Capt April,
I went to Microsoft`s site and searched for Vista`s EULA.From what my none legal mind could deduce,WMP in Vista always checks the content against a content providers revocation list and at there request,can disable the player from playing Protected content.Unprotected content will still play.Also if Microsoft detects that your player has this "feature" disabled,they can also disable your player.I guess they`re protecting our rights too?I was really happy to hear that they were concerned about our rights too.
January 28, 2007 10:51:45 PM

Oh yeah... hey Thanks M$ for turning off my media player... I was so worried I would be able to play anything that I wanted, but you have shown me the light.
January 28, 2007 11:04:52 PM

I doubt they can disable iTunes............. Wouldnt Apple have a fit if they tried though :D 
January 28, 2007 11:28:53 PM

Did I miss something cool and funny with the possible jiggle of boobs with all the "deleted" tags?
January 28, 2007 11:46:59 PM

No you didn`t much.There was nothing too serious.No nudity Ninja.
January 29, 2007 12:54:38 AM

Quote:
Did I miss something cool and funny with the possible jiggle of boobs with all the "deleted" tags?


Yeah, you missed plenty. My eyeballs still haven't recovered.
January 29, 2007 12:57:19 AM

Quote:
Sailor,
It took me a long time to find it,but according to a Microsoft forum,XP will not support DX 10.It stated that contrary to many rumors,it won`t because of significant changes to the graphics API and driver model.I was hoping it would too.


Bummer. How I wish someone would find a way to hack it in. Then again, maybe that would bring the DRM with it, so it it wouldn't do any good anyway.
January 29, 2007 1:00:38 AM

I would accept the equivalent drivers in OpenGL if it were to be written. then do away with DX 10.
January 29, 2007 1:06:37 AM

[quote="CaptRobertApril
@Sailer:

I have heard nothing at all about XP 64 ever working with DX10, so I would think that's a serious bummer. The medical files if they're imaging, should work fine with Vista. It's the mp3 and avi that are supposed to have trouble. However, accord99 and Synergy6 are in agreement that the mp3 and avi will run fine on Vista, so they disagree with Guttman.

DELETED

BTW, remind me to not get any urology surgery done in Nevada...[/quote]

Got to talking with one of my co-workers this morning. He's already had a minor disaster with Vista. Lucky everything had back ups. A couple others got into the conversation and they said that unless there's some patches or other changes, they can't see how they'll ever be able to use it. Guess time will tell about that.

As to the urology surgery, my lead nurse has a smaller chest, and therefore is not so distracting. Haven't had any "Opps! His girlfriend's going to hate me!" yet.
January 29, 2007 1:45:45 AM

Sailor,
Microsoft has a section on how to write drivers for developers,they have some videos too.I wish I knew how to do all that,I think I might try.
January 29, 2007 2:51:08 AM

Quote:
@Datman:

Hellya on the Raptor. A 150GB for about $200. That's the way to fly and that's what I'd be using for my OS and scratch disk etc. partitions.

That aint buttjiggle, that's damn near pr0n! Bring it on. At least you'll be the one gettin' banned from here, not me! :twisted:


Nope, just some deletion. :evil:  :twisted:
They took out the ones that were about stuff also. :evil:  :evil: 
Could of just taken the pics only. :evil:  :twisted:
Not even a tone it down :idea:
Later dude. :wink: :lol:  :lol:  :lol: 
January 29, 2007 4:29:28 AM

@Kagrenak

I don't think it will be too long until the drivers firm up as well as the other flaws. Keep in mind that they already have an SP1 in the works for Vista. That was fast!!!

@accord99

Fantastic! So instead of providing worse audio and video, the sound is actually better! So the bottom line is: What was Guttman smoking? No wonder he titles himself a Professional Paranoid on his own home page! :roll:

@Synergy6

In the Buchwald case, the court agreed that he had been ripped off and made the studio pay up. Hollywood accounting or not, it's pretty hard to defend a $350 mil take in 1990 bucks on a movie that probably cost only $15 mil to make. But that's Hollywood for ya. The same place where the lead singer from Creedence Clearwater Reunion, John Fogerty, was prevented for years from singing solo since "he sounded like himself..." 8O

@HERSHEY, PCAnalyst, STRKR

OK, let's clarify this. Mr. X's Vista is playing mp3 Y. Now Microsoft checks that Y is kosher against a list published by Y's record company and if it's a heretic, Microsoft disables X's entire player?

And people are actually paying for this OS? :lol: 

@Sailer

I never underestimate the power of the hacker, thus I'm sure that there are guys in their parents' basement sipping Jolt Cola and trying that right now. It seems that it will be the same problem as trying to incorporate ReadyDrive and ReadyBoost (the only Vista features I actually want) into XP. These features are built into the OS so profoundly that you'd pretty well have to rewrite XP from the ground up.

@PCAnalyst

I've resisted Linux possibly more than any other living being. But even I have to admit that it's getting to be like the ugly girl at the end of the bar. As closing time nears and the beers start to add up, she's looking more and more sexy by the minute. 8)

@Datman, DaSickNinja

Bretheren, I have seen the light of revelation. No more shall CaptRobertApril post lascivious images to titillate young men and lead them down the road to perdition to the gates of Hell itself.

No.

CaptRobertApril will keep those images to himself! I'm already going to Hell anyway, so I have nuthin' to lose! :twisted:
!