AMD next gen processors

[LabaR]

I know AMD is suppose to be releasing something new this year to try and out do what Intel has to offer at the moment, my question is what socket will it use? I believe the socket the AMD 64 X2's use right now is AM2...will the next gen processors by AMD use the same sockets?

 

[YO_KID37]

what socket will it use?

Both Socket F and Socket AM2 and AM2+, Socket F products hit first For K8L.

Will the next gen processors by AMD use the same sockets?

Yes, they will use AM2 Sockets but they will be made for AM2+ Sockets, you will be able to drop in AM2+ Processors into AM2 board but will lack the updates provided in the AM2+ socket- Hyper transport 3. etc..

 

[kaen]

They will be compatible but you won't get some bonuses from the socket AM2+ boards

 

[CaptRobertApril]

what socket will it use?

Both Socket F and Socket AM2 and AM2+, Socket F products hit first For K8L.

Will the next gen processors by AMD use the same sockets?

Yes, they will use AM2 Sockets but they will be made for AM2+ Sockets, you will be able to drop in AM2+ Processors into AM2 board but will lack the updates provided in the AM2+ socket- Hyper transport 3. etc..

Not to start a flaming war, but does this strategy really make any sense. First you shell out $500 or so for a processor and you fit it into an existing AM2 motherboard that costs maybe $80 just to get some of the best features disabled. Sure, it provides an upgrade path for the people that already have an AM2 motherboard, but given the fact that the motherboard represents about 15% of the cost of the CPU, who cares?

 

[YO_KID37]

what socket will it use?

Both Socket F and Socket AM2 and AM2+, Socket F products hit first For K8L.

Will the next gen processors by AMD use the same sockets?

Yes, they will use AM2 Sockets but they will be made for AM2+ Sockets, you will be able to drop in AM2+ Processors into AM2 board but will lack the updates provided in the AM2+ socket- Hyper transport 3. etc..

Not to start a flaming war, but does this strategy really make any sense. First you shell out $500 or so for a processor and you fit it into an existing AM2 motherboard that costs maybe $80 just to get some of the best features disabled. Sure, it provides an upgrade path for the people that already have an AM2 motherboard, but given the fact that the motherboard represents about 15% of the cost of the CPU, who cares?

Remember Rob, the segment we represent is the only ones who understand this Difference. People who will buy the K8L(most) will buy the AM2+ socket pre-built System or just buy a AM2+ Motherboard with it. But for the suckers who are buying AM2 and will eventually find out they need to upgrade to a new Arc will be happy to know that they can take their computers and dump it at their computer suppliers place and just drop it in. I think this Strategy came into play because most of their market segment is Dell and HP and these people. AMD is Smart. They are playing the "Get it now, Upgrade it later" card. So buying new or using Existing Motherboard is both an option for them. Unlike Intel's Crap-tacular strategy of making the consumer buy a brand new motherboard and a brand new Chipset with in it, and still being unsure if the CPU will run or not. AMD plays better strategy than Intel when it comes to CPU-MoBO Compatibility and Set-up Ease(for Builders and our segment of the market).

 

[CaptRobertApril]

Remember Rob, the segment we represent is the only ones who understand this Difference. People who will buy the K8L(most) will buy the AM2+ socket pre-built System or just buy a AM2+ Motherboard with it. But for the suckers who are buying AM2 and will eventually find out they need to upgrade to a new Arc will be happy to know that they can take their computers and dump it at their computer suppliers place and just drop it in. I think this Strategy came into play because most of their market segment is Dell and HP and these people. AMD is Smart. They are playing the "Get it now, Upgrade it later" card. So buying new or using Existing Motherboard is both an option for them. Unlike Intel's Crap-tacular strategy of making the consumer buy a brand new motherboard and a brand new Chipset with in it, and still being unsure if the CPU will run or not. AMD plays better strategy than Intel when it comes to CPU-MoBO Compatibility and Set-up Ease(for Builders and our segment of the market).

Ya, you make some good points and no one should ever overestimate the savvy of the average consumer as most of them are still looking for the Turbo Button on their C2Q systems. As I do agree that the "Hey, I've got a 775 socket, this has 775 pins, it should work" mentality is also messed up. But this AM2/AM2+ thing does seem a little too confusing. It's kinda like saying that when I trade in my car I only have one choice since I need to transplant my custom headers. Get some new headers!

 

[halbhh]

Yes, and it's most relevant for those that already have AM2 and like to be conservative with money.....

One scenario: they drop an AM2+ cpu into their AM2 board, perhaps in 8 or 12 months, and make do with the boost they get for another 5-8 months or so, and then *buy an AM3 board*, all according to plan..... They can re-use the AM2+ cpu in the AM3 board, until they are ready to upgrade to an AM3 cpu when prices are better, etc., etc.

Piecemeal upgrades at relatively modest prices, and all the while being not far off the leading edge, like 80-90% of it.

 

[CaptRobertApril]

Yes, and it's most relevant for those that already have AM2 and like to be conservative with money.....

One scenario: they drop an AM2+ cpu into their AM2 board, perhaps in 8 or 12 months, and make do with the boost they get for another 5-8 months or so, and then *buy an AM3 board*, all according to plan..... They can re-use the AM2+ cpu in the AM3 board, until they are ready to upgrade to an AM3 cpu when prices are better, etc., etc.

Piecemeal upgrades at relatively modest prices, and all the while being not far off the leading edge, like 80-90% of it.

Conservative is fine, but this seems like a relatively minor expenditure as compared to the cost of the CPU itself. There are some air CPU coolers out there that cost as much as an AM2+ motherboard. Can't see buying a V-8 and throttling it down to 4 cylinders. Not for $80 or so. Makes no sense to my addled brain.

 

[AdamBomb42]

Other than HTT3, what will be missed by using AM2?

 

[CaptRobertApril]

Other than HTT3, what will be missed by using AM2?

HTT3 at 2GHz vs. 1GHz & separate power planes for CPU and IMC. That's a significant throttledown in my book.

 

[ajfink]

That particular feature won't mean a whole lot in desktops, only in servers where HT links really need to blaze. That is the most publicized difference, though. Doesn't AM2+ support PCI-E 2.0?

I think the idea of the modular upgrade will work well for AMD users. Intel is going to get a few more boos if they force people to upgrade motherboards again for Penryn. I mean, they've got the engineering samples working on 965/975 motherboards, but we never know what they're gonna do when they hit the consumer space due to differing voltages.

 

[CaptRobertApril]

That particular feature won't mean a whole lot in desktops, only in servers where HT links really need to blaze. That is the most publicized difference, though. Doesn't AM2+ support PCI-E 2.0?

I think the idea of the modular upgrade will work well for AMD users. Intel is going to get a few more boos if they force people to upgrade motherboards again for Penryn. I mean, they've got the engineering samples working on 965/975 motherboards, but we never know what they're gonna do when they hit the consumer space due to differing voltages.

From what I understand, and I may be wrong (and often are) some 965/975s will work with Penryn and some won't. You can't expect every $75 motherboard on the market to be forward-compatible to that extent. I think that Intel's done a helluva job just keeping it on the 775. As for the AM2+ support for PCI-E 2.0 I'm not sure if it can do that or if they saved that for AM3. Anyone?

 

[halbhh]

Yes, and it's most relevant for those that already have AM2 and like to be conservative with money.....

One scenario: they drop an AM2+ cpu into their AM2 board, perhaps in 8 or 12 months, and make do with the boost they get for another 5-8 months or so, and then *buy an AM3 board*, all according to plan..... They can re-use the AM2+ cpu in the AM3 board, until they are ready to upgrade to an AM3 cpu when prices are better, etc., etc.

Piecemeal upgrades at relatively modest prices, and all the while being not far off the leading edge, like 80-90% of it.

Conservative is fine, but this seems like a relatively minor expenditure as compared to the cost of the CPU itself. There are some air CPU coolers out there that cost as much as an AM2+ motherboard. Can't see buying a V-8 and throttling it down to 4 cylinders. Not for $80 or so. Makes no sense to my addled brain.

There was a good post today in another recent thread (sorry, I'm not the kind that posts lots of links; but it does have red stars on it -- I voted 5 star), where the person pointed out theorectical situations where the HT difference mattered some, and that was for preium situations (e.g.--dual SLI on big monitor, etc), where the user is already spending a lot anyway, and so will up the motherboard anyway, etc., etc.

But for most of us, just getting 4 cores over 2 in a year, would be nice enough! And sure, if you want to shoot the extra $100, get the MB! OR....in a year, wait just a bit and get the AM3

But, for your metaphor, 8 cylinders down to 4 seems far from accurate. Perhaps 8 down to 7.5 generally, or down to 6.5 in the worst case uses that are uncommon.

In short, my scenario will make sense for many that conserve dollars, like I do.

 

[Pippero]

You can happily do without both features.
HT3.0 does not give any performance benefit on single socket systems (yeah well maybe with quad sli or stuff like that, but i really doubt it).
This because on a single socket board, HT is used only as a system bus, to hook up to PCI-Express.
HT2.0 already offer enough performance for the task.
As for the power features, could you point out to any link?
What i read is only speculative stuff.. but anyway, the split power planes probably are useful only for the quad-core.
Also, i'm not sure i understand the nature of your complaint.
Do you mean AMD shouldn't release AM2+ at all?

 

[Heyhey]

I know AMD is suppose to be releasing something new this year to try and out do what Intel has to offer at the moment, my question is what socket will it use? I believe the socket the AMD 64 X2's use right now is AM2...will the next gen processors by AMD use the same sockets?

so fill me in!! , what are they gonna release this year thats new?? , whats after K8L ??

 

[kamel5547]

what socket will it use?

Both Socket F and Socket AM2 and AM2+, Socket F products hit first For K8L.

Will the next gen processors by AMD use the same sockets?

Yes, they will use AM2 Sockets but they will be made for AM2+ Sockets, you will be able to drop in AM2+ Processors into AM2 board but will lack the updates provided in the AM2+ socket- Hyper transport 3. etc..

Not to start a flaming war, but does this strategy really make any sense. First you shell out $500 or so for a processor and you fit it into an existing AM2 motherboard that costs maybe $80 just to get some of the best features disabled. Sure, it provides an upgrade path for the people that already have an AM2 motherboard, but given the fact that the motherboard represents about 15% of the cost of the CPU, who cares?

It really depends on the real performance difference vs theoretical. If it turns out like the early PCI vs AGP, people would be fine without the "performance" of AM2+. It may be this upgrade in HT is coming before it is needed... Any guesses Jack?

And BTW, an enthusiast board isn't necissarily a minor expenditure... $200 bucks (vs. say a $350 e6600) is coming close ot the price of a CPU.

 

[ajfink]

Don't get vernandewd started on this subject...apparently a socket that lasts "only" two years isn't good enough. Just playing man.

 

[kiwik]

They should bring back the Socket A.

 

[halbhh]

Yes, and it's most relevant for those that already have AM2 and like to be conservative with money.....

One scenario: they drop an AM2+ cpu into their AM2 board, perhaps in 8 or 12 months, and make do with the boost they get for another 5-8 months or so, and then *buy an AM3 board*, all according to plan..... They can re-use the AM2+ cpu in the AM3 board, until they are ready to upgrade to an AM3 cpu when prices are better, etc., etc.

Piecemeal upgrades at relatively modest prices, and all the while being not far off the leading edge, like 80-90% of it.

Thats feeling pretty much like someone is ripping my guts out when i purchased am2 they promised am3 compatibility,which would have seen me through 45nm in moderate steps.,maybe.

Yeah i am a bit upset about getting caught in this trap,and no mention of what K8L will perform like on AM2 so i am left to assume it will be the same or worse.This sux.

Well, while I presumed some of the various architecture things in the chip will come thru on AM2, I've always had my eye on a different part of it -- 4 cores instead of 2! With that kind of boost, the other parts are less important to me.

For someone who actually needs the extra kick, they can get a motherboard anyway.

 

[CaptRobertApril]

@ halbhh

OK, then, I'll compromise with ya and go from 8 cylinders to 6. I had an old early '80s Cadillac that had a system that would shut down a couple of cylinders to save fuel. It ran about as well as a Fiat 500 on kerosene. I pay for power I want freakin' power! :twisted:

@ Pippero

Google: am2+ planes IMC. There are 38 of them, including Wiki.

@ Heyhey

What's after K8L? A buyout. :lol:

@ kamel5547

Ok, but name me one sane person (who is not a Baron, other form of royalty, or on AMD payroll) who's gonna shell out $200 on an AM2 motherboard. These days it's kinda like investing in Amiga.

@ kiwik

Nah. Socket A couldn't handle the IMC. Now Super Socket 7! There ya go! A 100MHz FSB that could easily be pushed to 1333!!! :twisted:

 

[halbhh]

Re the "$200" AM2 MB, Newegg's most popular list top 3 together average around $64.

 

[CaptRobertApril]

Re the "$200" AM2 MB, Newegg's most popular list top 3 together average around $64.

Damn. I've eaten burgers that cost more than that! 8)

 

[halbhh]

Re the "$200" AM2 MB, Newegg's most popular list top 3 together average around $64.

Damn. I've eaten burgers that cost more than that! 8)

Hate it when I pay $20 for a burger!

 

[CaptRobertApril]

Re the "$200" AM2 MB, Newegg's most popular list top 3 together average around $64.

Damn. I've eaten burgers that cost more than that! 8)

Hate it when I pay $20 for a burger!

$20? You have to tip more at some of these places. And the worst part is that once you're done you have to go to Burger King to get full. I love that "I AM MAN" TV commercial. "I'm not eatin' chick food anymore!"

OK, so if an AM2 motherboard is $64, the bottom line to slapping an AM2+ chip and losing the features is that it is a valid option for the just plain DEMENTED. :lol:

 

[Pippero]

Pip we had this discussion and i cannot disprove what you are saying,but do you honestly believ the l3 on am2+ will be the performance raising feature? AM2+ may have a dual Imc as well,which is not an am2 supported feature.

lets go point by point over the differences.sse extensions will give what level of perf?And the real estate for them will still be below intel.
How will L3 ,and dual imc and the added extensions accomplish what you are implying on am2?

Let's not confuse AM2+ socket with AM2+ processors.
AM2+ as a socket offers very little for performance, if at all.
Now, concerning the improvements of the AM2+ processors (K8L core):
L3 cache? A little, but mostly for 4 core systems. It helps with core-core on die communications
Dual IMC? I'm not aware of that.. AFAIK, a single CPU will still have only one IMC.
Enhanced crossbar switch? Again, will help with core - core communication, but it's not a major point here
SSE4? This will help for future applications, but it's just to match the instruction set of C2D
Improved branch prediction? Will help especially with certain types of integer code. Hard to quantify, without more details about branch prediction hit rates on K8, C2D
Out of Order Loads? Again, will help with certain types of integer code. (non computationally intensive)
Improved TLB? Will help with server / scientific workloads (large datasets)
So where is it the big performance improvement of K8L?
Simple, they basically doubled the width / throughput of the main computational engine, SSEx.
This involves doubling the execution resources (ALUs), the L1 cache ports (2x128bit Loads, or 1x128bit Load + 1x128 bit Store) and buses, the schedulers and even the fetch size (to be able to decode 3 SSE instructions per clock under all conditions, even in 64bit mode, something that it seems C2D can not always do (but there's not reliable data around)) this is probably the biggest factor of increased performance in K8L.
And crunching numbers at twice the speed (theoretically) they'll finally be able to make some use of all that bandwidth which is mostly wasted on AM2 processors.