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QUESTION,,,,,,can someone tell me WHY,,,,,

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June 11, 2004 4:30:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

on all the hdtv sets, they have only four or five preset "screen
displays", for you to fit the picture "properly" on the screen,,,when
all you REALLY need is two settings, "maintain aspect ratio-fit
horizontally" and "maintain aspect ratio-fit vertically".

this is all you need to fit a picture properly onto the screen instead
of diddling with "zooms" and "fill screens" etc that don't do the job.

i was watching a dvd, "darling", that did not fit correctly on any
setting because it was slightly smaller than 16:9, and the only way i
could view it in its proper aspect ratio was to watch the movie as a
smaller screen that did not fill vertically or horizontally,,,or watch
it in "zoom" which filled the horizontal but cut off part of the
movie's height.

is there some technical reason why they only have these standard
settings and not the ones i suggested?

More about : question

Anonymous
June 12, 2004 2:48:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"b" <bruin70@mail.com> wrote in message
news:95513a07.0406111130.2ed7613f@posting.google.com...
> on all the hdtv sets, they have only four or five preset "screen
> displays", for you to fit the picture "properly" on the screen,,,when
> all you REALLY need is two settings, "maintain aspect ratio-fit
> horizontally" and "maintain aspect ratio-fit vertically".
>
> this is all you need to fit a picture properly onto the screen instead
> of diddling with "zooms" and "fill screens" etc that don't do the job.
>
> i was watching a dvd, "darling", that did not fit correctly on any
> setting because it was slightly smaller than 16:9, and the only way i
> could view it in its proper aspect ratio was to watch the movie as a
> smaller screen that did not fill vertically or horizontally,,,or watch
> it in "zoom" which filled the horizontal but cut off part of the
> movie's height.
>
> is there some technical reason why they only have these standard
> settings and not the ones i suggested?

Uhhh, firmware?
Anonymous
June 12, 2004 8:39:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

b,

On a widescreen set you'll have two modes 16:9 and 4:3 native these modes,
from there you usually have a 4:3 Expanded mode (called different things by
different makers) this mode usually zooms the picture very slightly and then
stretches slowly along the left and right borders so that 4:3 content can
look somewhat normal on a 16:9 screen. Why would you want to do this?
Because the black bars that you get on the left and right sides (as a result
of 4:3 content being viewed on a widescreen HDTV, can cause burn-in and
damage the set). Also, many people just like to fill out the entire screen.
Many do not, but it's a nice to have option.

For aspect ratios you have to understand that widescreen TVs are 16:9 and
that most movies are actually not in that aspect ratio (a bit longer on both
sides) most movies are shot in 2:35:1 aspect and displayed this way in the
theater, which means even on a widescreen HDTV you'll still have small black
bars at the top and bottom. Some movies (mostly dramas and comedies) are
shot in 1:85:1 (aka Academy Flat) which will fill out a 16:9 screen almost
perfectly. There is no magic zoom to somehow make the magic bars ago away
and yet still preserve all the content on the screen, that's impossible.
That's impossible without stretching the image.

The various zoom modes beyond the three mentioned, well I'm not really sure
what they are for (other than novelity use). The only time I use zoom is
when watching 2:35:1 non-anamorphic widescreen (letterboxed) movies. This
cuts off a very small portin of the left and right and leaves small black
bars at the top and bottom (basicly it turns 2:35:1 movies into 1:85:1 at
the cost of loss content. I do this because my alternative is to watch the
movie in Expanded or in it's normal aspect ratio (which would be a little
box inside with my widescreen HDTV in 4:3 native mode.

If the DVD you're refering to is Darling (from 1965), this DVD is listed as
being 1:66:1 widescreen (letterbox), which means that it's going to look bad
on a widescreen HDTV no matter what you do. About 95% of the professional
DVD's being released today are anamorphic widescreen (this means the DVD
player does not send the black bars out as part of the image, the HDTV gets
the signal and then it can decide how best to display it).
Letterbox DVDs aren't friendly with widescreen HDTVs.

-Jeremy





"b" <bruin70@mail.com> wrote in message
news:95513a07.0406111130.2ed7613f@posting.google.com...
> on all the hdtv sets, they have only four or five preset "screen
> displays", for you to fit the picture "properly" on the screen,,,when
> all you REALLY need is two settings, "maintain aspect ratio-fit
> horizontally" and "maintain aspect ratio-fit vertically".
>
> this is all you need to fit a picture properly onto the screen instead
> of diddling with "zooms" and "fill screens" etc that don't do the job.
>
> i was watching a dvd, "darling", that did not fit correctly on any
> setting because it was slightly smaller than 16:9, and the only way i
> could view it in its proper aspect ratio was to watch the movie as a
> smaller screen that did not fill vertically or horizontally,,,or watch
> it in "zoom" which filled the horizontal but cut off part of the
> movie's height.
>
> is there some technical reason why they only have these standard
> settings and not the ones i suggested?
Related resources
June 12, 2004 3:27:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Jeremy Deats'" <jeremy@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<bOvyc.20386$KL2.7087@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
> b,
>
> On a widescreen set you'll have two modes 16:9 and 4:3 native these modes,
> from there you usually have a 4:3 Expanded mode (called different things by
> different makers) this mode usually zooms the picture very slightly and then
> stretches slowly along the left and right borders so that 4:3 content can
> look somewhat normal on a 16:9 screen. Why would you want to do this?
> Because the black bars that you get on the left and right sides (as a result
> of 4:3 content being viewed on a widescreen HDTV, can cause burn-in and
> damage the set). Also, many people just like to fill out the entire screen.
> Many do not, but it's a nice to have option.
>
> For aspect ratios you have to understand that widescreen TVs are 16:9 and
> that most movies are actually not in that aspect ratio (a bit longer on both
> sides) most movies are shot in 2:35:1 aspect and displayed this way in the
> theater, which means even on a widescreen HDTV you'll still have small black
> bars at the top and bottom. Some movies (mostly dramas and comedies) are
> shot in 1:85:1 (aka Academy Flat) which will fill out a 16:9 screen almost
> perfectly. There is no magic zoom to somehow make the magic bars ago away
> and yet still preserve all the content on the screen, that's impossible.
> That's impossible without stretching the image.
>
> The various zoom modes beyond the three mentioned, well I'm not really sure
> what they are for (other than novelity use). The only time I use zoom is
> when watching 2:35:1 non-anamorphic widescreen (letterboxed) movies. This
> cuts off a very small portin of the left and right and leaves small black
> bars at the top and bottom (basicly it turns 2:35:1 movies into 1:85:1 at
> the cost of loss content. I do this because my alternative is to watch the
> movie in Expanded or in it's normal aspect ratio (which would be a little
> box inside with my widescreen HDTV in 4:3 native mode.
>
> If the DVD you're refering to is Darling (from 1965), this DVD is listed as
> being 1:66:1 widescreen (letterbox), which means that it's going to look bad
> on a widescreen HDTV no matter what you do. About 95% of the professional
> DVD's being released today are anamorphic widescreen (this means the DVD
> player does not send the black bars out as part of the image, the HDTV gets
> the signal and then it can decide how best to display it).
> Letterbox DVDs aren't friendly with widescreen HDTVs.
>
> -Jeremy
>

on my sony, kf-60we610, i thought there might be a possibility to "mix
and match" because it has two modes,,,as you say, for widescreen and
4:3,,,,and i believe my dvd player has screen modes also( i have to
check,,,as i just purchased both in the past week)...

however i don't know what the 4:3 mode is doing because i cannot
access any screen option in that mode,,,as the tv is automatically
setting to 16:9. i realize some people just prefer to see their
screens filled edge to edge, though i wouldn't think there is a burn
in problem with today's technology. i called sony suport about the
issue , and specifically if there is burn in when playing PS2,and they
said no.

anyway,,,there is a vertical stretch tweak option that i might
try...to see if that might help bringing back some proportion to the
scren images.


anyway, bottomline,i think the sony is great,and i actually prefer the
dvd resolution to hd. hd is more like ,,,,,,,,,IMAX. dvd plays
similiar to what i would see on a movie screen. with all the hd hype
about clarity(and i must say, it looks stunning) the negative is that
the images look "paper thin" because there's just TOO much clarity on
all the edges. whereas the dvd images to fuller(though softer)
Anonymous
June 13, 2004 11:31:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

b,

see comments in-line:

bruin70@mail.com (b) wrote in message
>
> on my sony, kf-60we610, i thought there might be a possibility to "mix
> and match" because it has two modes,,,as you say, for widescreen and
> 4:3,,,,and i believe my dvd player has screen modes also( i have to
> check,,,as i just purchased both in the past week)...
>
> however i don't know what the 4:3 mode is doing because i cannot
> access any screen option in that mode,,,as the tv is automatically
> setting to 16:9.

Well for the movie you listed (Darling), as I said that's a
non-anamorphic (aka leterboxed) widescreen DVD and unfortunately DVDs
in that format aren't going to look right on an HDTV. I've found the
best way to watch them is to use a 4:3 zoom mode (called Zoom1 on my
Hitachi 57T600) this mode zooms in the 4:3 picture, cuts off a good
amount of the top and bottom black bars, but also cuts off some on the
left and right.

Most other DVDs in your catalog should be anamorphic. Even most
classic films put out today are (e.g. I rented Breakfast at Tiffany's
the other day and it filled out my 16:9 screen perfectly without any
need for zoom/stretch because it was formated at 1:85:1 anamorphic
widescreen).

If you want to know if a movie is anamorphic, you can go to
www.amazon.com and look up the DVD your interested in. At the bottom
of the Product Details section there's a link for "... more technical
details". If you click on that link it will tell you. This is really a
great resource. I recently bought a copy of the original Robocop off a
budget rack and it was letterboxed. I went to amazon.com and
discovered a anamorphic widescreen version of Robocop was recently
made available, I thought this might be an error on their part so I
bought it just to see. Turns out their information was correct, so I
gave the non-anamorphic version away.

All this stuff is especially fun to explain to the wife and kids who
just don't care. Go into your DVD settings and put it in 16:9 mode.
Also hook up the DVD player to the TV using component cables.

You aren't having issues with 4:3 displaying properly from your
cable/sat box are you? I can understand the problems you'd have with
letterbox DVD movies, but your broadcast shouldn't be an issue. If it
is you may have to go into you cable box and set it to 16:9 output. I
had to go on-line and get a pdf copy of my cable box owners manual
(from Motorolla's website), access the menu and make this change
myself. Some cable installers are clueless.



i realize some people just prefer to see their
> screens filled edge to edge, though i wouldn't think there is a burn
> in problem with today's technology. i called sony suport about the
> issue , and specifically if there is burn in when playing PS2,and they
> said no.
>

I looked up the information on your model.

You have an LCD based set, so the support rep was correct. You do not
have to worry about burn-in. Also the set will last you a good long
time compared to other technologies.


> anyway,,,there is a vertical stretch tweak option that i might
> try...to see if that might help bringing back some proportion to the
> scren images.
>

You should be able to set it to 4:3 native/normal (or standard,
whatever it's called on your set) and you'll just get black bars on
the left and right side of the screen. That won't work with letterbox
DVD movies, because the black bars are sent out as part of the image,
so the result in normal mode will be black bars at top and bottom and
left and right. Again, there isn't much you can do about this except
to experiment with your zoom modes.


> > anyway, bottomline,i think the sony is great,and i actually prefer the
> dvd resolution to hd. hd is more like ,,,,,,,,,IMAX. dvd plays
> similiar to what i would see on a movie screen. with all the hd hype
> about clarity(and i must say, it looks stunning).

Sony uses upconversion to scale the incoming DVD signal to HD 720p it
makes DVD look almost HD. Also it applies 3:2 pulldown which really
gives you that cinematic film like effect.


> the negative is that
> the images look "paper thin" because there's just TOO much clarity on
> all the edges.

Pull back on the sharpness control a bit.

> whereas the dvd images to fuller(though softer)
Anonymous
June 13, 2004 5:17:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Jeremy Deats'" <jeremy@nospam.com> wrote in message news:bOvyc.20386>

> The only time I use zoom is
> when watching 2:35:1 non-anamorphic widescreen (letterboxed) movies. This
> cuts off a very small portin of the left and right and leaves small black
> bars at the top and bottom (basicly it turns 2:35:1 movies into 1:85:1 at
> the cost of loss content.


Jeremy, that doesn't quite make sense. If you zoom a 2.35:1 non-anamorphic
letterboxed movie on a 16:9 display you don't loose anything save for
apparent resolution. Nothing is cut from the left and right unless your
television has an inordinate amount of overscan.

Charles Tomaras
Seattle, WA
Anonymous
June 14, 2004 4:33:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Charles Tomaras wrote:
> "Jeremy Deats'" <jeremy@nospam.com> wrote in message news:bOvyc.20386>
>
>> The only time I use zoom is
>> when watching 2:35:1 non-anamorphic widescreen (letterboxed) movies.
>> This cuts off a very small portin of the left and right and leaves
>> small black bars at the top and bottom (basicly it turns 2:35:1
>> movies into 1:85:1 at the cost of loss content.
>
>
> Jeremy, that doesn't quite make sense. If you zoom a 2.35:1
> non-anamorphic letterboxed movie on a 16:9 display you don't loose
> anything save for apparent resolution. Nothing is cut from the left
> and right unless your television has an inordinate amount of overscan.
>
> Charles Tomaras
> Seattle, WA

He was watching a letterboxed DVD (non-anamorphic). That was the
problem.

--
David G.
Anonymous
June 14, 2004 5:03:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"David G." <david_please_dont_email_me@i_hate_spam.com> wrote in message
news:LI-dnZP1VdUat1DdRVn-iQ@comcast.com...
> Charles Tomaras wrote:
>> "Jeremy Deats'" <jeremy@nospam.com> wrote in message news:bOvyc.20386>
>>
>>> The only time I use zoom is
>>> when watching 2:35:1 non-anamorphic widescreen (letterboxed) movies.
>>> This cuts off a very small portin of the left and right and leaves
>>> small black bars at the top and bottom (basicly it turns 2:35:1
>>> movies into 1:85:1 at the cost of loss content.
>>
>>
>> Jeremy, that doesn't quite make sense. If you zoom a 2.35:1
>> non-anamorphic letterboxed movie on a 16:9 display you don't loose
>> anything save for apparent resolution. Nothing is cut from the left
>> and right unless your television has an inordinate amount of overscan.
>>
>> Charles Tomaras
>> Seattle, WA
>
> He was watching a letterboxed DVD (non-anamorphic). That was the
> problem.

Yes...that's exactly what I am referring to. If you zoom a letterboxed
non-anamorphic DVD you lose nothing but apparent resolution. The sides of
the 4:3 area when zoomed become the sides of the 16:9 screen. The only way
you would lose something by zooming would be if you zoomed a 4:3 image or a
1.66:1 image and in those cases you would lose picture from the top and
bottom.

Charles Tomaras
Seattle, WA
June 14, 2004 7:41:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

>,,,,, There is no magic zoom to somehow make the magic bars ago away
> and yet still preserve all the content on the screen, that's impossible.
> That's impossible without stretching the image.
>
>

yes, i know. what i was saying was why can't there be a simple
adjustment option wherein the image can maintain its aspect ration but
optioned to fit either horizontally or vertically. i realize there
would be bars either vertically or horizonatlly. i have no problemwith
that, as i would prefer to view the whole screen,a shot.

seems to me, for the sake of "convenience"( and maybe that people
simply don't like the bars), these hdtv's have all these presets. my
question was,,, is it possible to have screen options that i would
like to see?
Anonymous
June 14, 2004 1:17:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

b wrote:
>> ,,,,, There is no magic zoom to somehow make the magic bars ago away
>> and yet still preserve all the content on the screen, that's
>> impossible. That's impossible without stretching the image.
>>
>>
>
> yes, i know. what i was saying was why can't there be a simple
> adjustment option wherein the image can maintain its aspect ration but
> optioned to fit either horizontally or vertically. i realize there
> would be bars either vertically or horizonatlly. i have no problemwith
> that, as i would prefer to view the whole screen,a shot.
>
> seems to me, for the sake of "convenience"( and maybe that people
> simply don't like the bars), these hdtv's have all these presets. my
> question was,,, is it possible to have screen options that i would
> like to see?

You have what you want. If you watch a 4:3 program, you can watch it in
it's transmitted apsect ratio and you'll have black bars on the
left/right and fill the screen vertically. If you watch an anamorphic
DVD, the image will fill the screen horzontally and may or may not have
black bars on the top/bottom, depending on the actual aspect ratio of
the DVD.

A non-anamorphic DVD will show a letterboxed image inside a 4:3 frame.
Without zooming, you'll see black bars on all sides. A simple zoom will
fill the screen horizontally and you'll have black bars on the
top/bottom. Although the image will have mich less resolution than the
anamorphic encoded DVDs.

I'm not sure I understand your issues or concerns.


--
David G.
June 15, 2004 7:26:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

the reason this became an irritating issue with me was when i was
watching "darling", the julie christie movie which jeremy found was
1:66:1.

there was no way for me to watch this particular movie fill the screen
without the image being either truncated or stretched. the only way i
was able to view this movie IN FULL and in its proper aspect ratio
was, i believe,in "normal".....and it was a smaller image centered on
the screen surrounded by black.

and as jeremy pointed out, there is always some sort of image editing
going on. so the question i posed why, with all these different screen
modes, couldn't "they", instead, simply option a "maintain aspect
ration/fill vertically or horizontally" seems like a simple solution
for guyz like me who want to see the whole image, unedited, black bars
notwithstanding. is the technology possible?
Anonymous
June 15, 2004 1:16:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

b wrote:
> the reason this became an irritating issue with me was when i was
> watching "darling", the julie christie movie which jeremy found was
> 1:66:1.
>
> there was no way for me to watch this particular movie fill the screen
> without the image being either truncated or stretched. the only way i
> was able to view this movie IN FULL and in its proper aspect ratio
> was, i believe,in "normal".....and it was a smaller image centered on
> the screen surrounded by black.
>
> and as jeremy pointed out, there is always some sort of image editing
> going on. so the question i posed why, with all these different screen
> modes, couldn't "they", instead, simply option a "maintain aspect
> ration/fill vertically or horizontally" seems like a simple solution
> for guyz like me who want to see the whole image, unedited, black bars
> notwithstanding. is the technology possible?

You should have a normal zoom on your TV for non-anamorphic DVD movies.
THe truth is that they rarely make non-anamorphic movies any more. I
think it was a production cheat when DVDs first came out. Most movies
have been rereleased in anamorphic format.

I would be surprised if your TV did not have a zoom mode which just
brings the image up the the sides of the screen without an distortion.


--
David G.
June 15, 2004 7:03:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

>
> I would be surprised if your TV did not have a zoom mode which just
> brings the image up the the sides of the screen without an distortion.

it does....i have a brand new sony. but in the case of "darling",
because it is 1:66:1, parts of the top and bottom were truncated. the
sony allows me to move the image up or down. in this case,i moved the
image down rather than keeping it centered, so at least the heads
weren't cut off.

just a nuisance, considering all this technology we have today, that
they can't think of a simpler solution.
!