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Another newbie question - about xp

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January 16, 2005 5:49:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Just tried playing the first chapter with a couple of different chars.

With a Monk or Bard, each "escaped prisoner" is worth 42xp.

With a Fighter, each is worth only 17xp.

What's this all about? Which class get the most xp, and why??

CC
P.S. Is there a good forum for discussing this game? The official
Bioware forums seem to be full of illiterates ... I mean ... not very
helpful.

More about : newbie question

Anonymous
January 16, 2005 10:27:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

On 16 Jan 2005 14:49:33 -0800, "magnate" <chrisc@dbass.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>Just tried playing the first chapter with a couple of different chars.
>
>With a Monk or Bard, each "escaped prisoner" is worth 42xp.
>
>With a Fighter, each is worth only 17xp.
>
>What's this all about? Which class get the most xp, and why??

You're sure you were the same level? xp is generally based on
your level vs the level of whatever challenge you overcame.
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 11:58:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

magnate wrote:
> Just tried playing the first chapter with a couple of different chars.
>
> With a Monk or Bard, each "escaped prisoner" is worth 42xp.
>
> With a Fighter, each is worth only 17xp.
>
> What's this all about? Which class get the most xp, and why??

In order to "even things out", Bioware created an "Effective Challenge
Rating Level" for each class. At each class level, each class is
assigned an ECRL which may be equal to or lower than the class level.
This ECRL is used to determine experience awarded.

That's the detail. The result: certain classes are considered "lower in
level" than other classes and get more XP. Barbarians, fighters,
paladins and rangers get no love. They are considered their actual level
for determining XP. Clerics, druids, monks and rogues run a little
behind the melee types until level 7. Wizards and sorcerers run further
behind until level 8. Bards get the most help, trailing everyone until
14th level.


> P.S. Is there a good forum for discussing this game? The official
> Bioware forums seem to be full of illiterates ... I mean ... not very
> helpful.

I frequent the Bioboards, as do others who also post here. I would
recommend this group, the Bioboards and the NWN Message Boards on GameFAQs.
--
Barry Scott Will
Pyric RPG Publications
http://www.pyric.com/
Related resources
January 17, 2005 4:12:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Well, I'm sorry for the insult but I've not managed to find anything
even half as helpful as that on the Bioware forums! Anyway, it's
interesting to know, if a little disappointing. It's one of those
things which is pretty unpalatable, even if it's perhaps justified. "We
couldn't be bothered to balance the classes, so we fudged it."

Out of interest, is there a reference that has this sort of detailed
info? It's not in the manuals, or anywhere on the Bioware site that I
can find.

CC
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 4:37:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

magnate wrote:
> Well, I'm sorry for the insult but I've not managed to find anything
> even half as helpful as that on the Bioware forums! Anyway, it's
> interesting to know, if a little disappointing. It's one of those
> things which is pretty unpalatable, even if it's perhaps justified. "We
> couldn't be bothered to balance the classes, so we fudged it."
>
> Out of interest, is there a reference that has this sort of detailed
> info? It's not in the manuals, or anywhere on the Bioware site that I
> can find.
>
> CC
>

Yes, you will find this newsgroup quite helpful. I don't use the Bioware
boards much, except for the Toolset group. The people in here are nice
and knowledgeable.
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 7:27:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

magnate wrote:
> Out of interest, is there a reference that has this sort of detailed
> info? It's not in the manuals, or anywhere on the Bioware site that I
> can find.


I'm not sure if there's a reference with this kind of information. The
best overall reference is here:

http://nwvault.ign.com/Files/other/data/1071619119750.s...

I figured out the ECRL thing while playing around with the classes.2da file.
--
Barry Scott Will
Pyric RPG Publications
http://www.pyric.com/
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 7:31:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

magnate wrote:
> Well, I'm sorry for the insult but I've not managed to find anything
> even half as helpful as that on the Bioware forums! Anyway, it's
> interesting to know, if a little disappointing. It's one of those
> things which is pretty unpalatable, even if it's perhaps justified. "We
> couldn't be bothered to balance the classes, so we fudged it."


It's not really BW's fault. The imbalance in the classes at low levels
is inherent in D&D because D&D is intended as a party system. Bards, for
example, are simply not supposed to be solo adventurers. All their
abilities are tuned specifically for supporting a party. Wizards and
sorcerers are not meant to travel without some meat shields until they
get pretty high in level. Even tanks aren't supposed to venture forth
without allies to protect them from magic and heal their wounds. (The
abundance of curative items and resistance items in NWN helps overcome
that disability.) Tack on the extreme amount of combat in NWN as
compared to your typical PnP campaign, and the non-tanks really need all
the help they can get.
--
Barry Scott Will
Pyric RPG Publications
http://www.pyric.com/
January 18, 2005 6:42:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Barry Scott Will wrote:

> magnate wrote:

> > things which is pretty unpalatable, even if it's perhaps justified.
"We
> > couldn't be bothered to balance the classes, so we fudged it."

> It's not really BW's fault. The imbalance in the classes at low
levels
> is inherent in D&D because D&D is intended as a party system. Bards,
for

I don't disagree with you, I just think it's a shame they didn't do the
fudging in a more imaginative way - something slightly less visible to
the naked eye. I know it's probably passé to refer to BG but one can't
help drawing comparisons there. I've noticed that killing baddies in
NWN is *much* harder than in BG, exacerbating the difference between
tanks and non-melee classes at the beginning. I don't know if this is
also reflected in the difference between 2nd & 3rd Edition PnP - I
never played PnP beyond 1st Edition - but I suspect it may have
something to do with the reworked AC system (I seem to get hit much
more often in NWN than in BG with equivalent kit).

Incidentally does anyone know the going rate for a complete set of 1st
Edition hardbacks?

Anyway, this could turn into a long debate and sadly I have some work
to do today. I'm definitely enjoying NWN (I'm now trying the SoU
campaign, which seems a bit more balanced than the original one, at
least to start with) so I'll explore it a bit further.

Thanks for all the responses - am now going to check out the
recommended reference (after finishing all my work, of course).

CC
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 1:25:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

magnate wrote:
> I don't disagree with you, I just think it's a shame they didn't do the
> fudging in a more imaginative way - something slightly less visible to
> the naked eye. I know it's probably passé to refer to BG but one can't
> help drawing comparisons there. I've noticed that killing baddies in
> NWN is *much* harder than in BG, exacerbating the difference between
> tanks and non-melee classes at the beginning. I don't know if this is
> also reflected in the difference between 2nd & 3rd Edition PnP - I
> never played PnP beyond 1st Edition - but I suspect it may have
> something to do with the reworked AC system (I seem to get hit much
> more often in NWN than in BG with equivalent kit).


Well, from the other perspective, I played NWN before BG, and when I try
to play BG, I die all the time (even playing a tank). Part of the
problem is the rules differences; they are so different, it is hard to
know what is "good" in one system if you're used to the other. 2e is
totally alien to me, and I haven't the patience to try to figure out
exactly how I should go about improving my "THAC0", or what are good
ability stats for a fighter or paladin. Etc. So I find BG tediously
difficult and NWN very easy, even when playing a spellcaster.

There's also the fact, in BG, you have a full party and complete control
over every member of the party. In NWN, you're essentially solo, with,
at best, one henchperson who is kind of stupid and not under your
control beyond some very limited commands. BW has since fixed some of
those issues (better henchman AI, more than one henchman); and the
community has an /override Hak that allows you to use PC characters as
henchmen in any module. (I think they're also working on a system where
you can take control of the PC henchmen.)

Finally, there is an overwhelming amount of combat in NWN. Way too much,
IMO. However, the somewhat non-linear approach to the chapters allows
spellcasters some "fudge" room. E.g. you can clear the exterior areas in
each of the four districts, gaining levels all the way, and then venture
into the "dungeons" in each area once you are more comfortably
established. That particular "cheat" is, unfortunately, lost on new
players, so, yes, NWN is poorly balanced and weighted toward melee
characters.
--
Barry Scott Will
Pyric RPG Publications
http://www.pyric.com/
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 3:24:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

magnate wrote:
> never played PnP beyond 1st Edition - but I suspect it may have
> something to do with the reworked AC system (I seem to get hit much
> more often in NWN than in BG with equivalent kit).

More likely it's that beginning with 3E, armor limited the max dex for
medium and heavy armors. Under 1E/2E, chain mail gave a base AC of 5
(IIRC) and lower AC was better (base unarmored and unmodified AC was
10). If the character had an 18 dex, the AC would drop to 1 as you
received the full benefit of the dex modifier.

Under 3E, there's a limit of how much dex can be applied to your AC, so
there are times when you get a better final AC with "lesser" (lighter)
armor that allows more of your dex modifier to apply. Chain mail still
provides a modifier of 5 (base AC is still 10) so chain mail gives a
base AC of 15 in 3E. However, the max dex bonus is 2, so even if you
had an 18 dex, your AC is 17. With a chain mail shirt (AC modifier of
4 but max dex modifier of 4) and an 18 dex, you'd have AC 18.

Barry Scott Will wrote:
> E.g. you can clear the exterior areas in
> each of the four districts, gaining levels all the way, and then
venture
> into the "dungeons" in each area once you are more comfortably
> established. That particular "cheat" is, unfortunately, lost on new
players

Heh, I figured this one out early. As a rogue, I was having problems
with the prison district (couldn't afford a hench to start). Wandered
on over to the zombie area (don't recall what it's called), figured out
that with my short bow or crossbow, I could shoot them from a distance,
run away, and shoot some more - and collect XP
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 2:22:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Barry Scott Will wrote:

> Well, from the other perspective, I played NWN before BG, and when I
> try to play BG, I die all the time (even playing a tank). Part of the
> problem is the rules differences; they are so different, it is hard
> to know what is "good" in one system if you're used to the other. 2e
> is totally alien to me, and I haven't the patience to try to figure
> out exactly how I should go about improving my "THAC0", or what are
> good ability stats for a fighter or paladin. Etc. So I find BG
> tediously difficult and NWN very easy, even when playing a
> spellcaster.

The BG series, and especially BG1, were indeed much harder than NWN,
even if you have got into the ruleset. One reason is probably the
liberty in travelling, most of the areas are alreeady open from the
beginning, and you can stumble upon high level enemies very quickly if
you don't know where to go.

Hans
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 2:22:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Ahh yes, the classic Baldur's Gate stay on the paved roads, death awaits you
off the beaten path. I remember wandering too far from the road, and came
accross a horde of diseased gibberlings, hopelessly outnumberd....my party
being on the average 2nd or 3rd level, got decimated. Old 2ED rules made low
level THAC0 quite hard to pull off. Needless to say, after that i only
wandered away from the roads when i was sure the party was capable of
anything that could be thrown at me. not including that archeological dig,
wooo that was a nightmare!


...Syn...

quite confused at how anyone playin PC Games could not have heard of
Baldur's Gate Series long before NeverWinter Nights ( the pc game, not that
AOL-thing ) hit the stores. BG is quite possibly still the best AD&D based
PC RPG Game, EVER!
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 2:22:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Visceral_Syn wrote:
> quite confused at how anyone playin PC Games could not have heard of
> Baldur's Gate Series long before NeverWinter Nights



I didn't say I hadn't heard of BG, I said I played NWN first. For a
long, long time, I stayed away from CRPGs and played mostly RTS games.
NWN, with it's Aurora Toolset, intrigued me enough to get back into the
waters.
--
Barry Scott Will
Pyric RPG Publications
http://www.pyric.com/
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 2:53:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Visceral_Syn wrote:
> quite confused at how anyone playin PC Games could not have heard of
> Baldur's Gate Series long before NeverWinter Nights ( the pc game, not that
> AOL-thing ) hit the stores. BG is quite possibly still the best AD&D based
> PC RPG Game, EVER!

I got a copy of it, but I had already been playing NWN and I just can't get past the interface now.
--
My NWN Work So Far: http://tinyurl.com/6xy2f
"Pits of red smoke and fog are usually bad."
- Tip from Doom3 Manual
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 2:53:15 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

everlast wrote:
> Visceral_Syn wrote:
>
>>quite confused at how anyone playin PC Games could not have heard of
>>Baldur's Gate Series long before NeverWinter Nights ( the pc game, not that
>>AOL-thing ) hit the stores. BG is quite possibly still the best AD&D based
>>PC RPG Game, EVER!
>
>
> I got a copy of it, but I had already been playing NWN and I just can't get past the interface now.

I played through BG and enjoyed it, but I just couldn't get into BG2
(though it's supposedly far better). I was annoyed at some of the game
play mechanics, and it might have hurt me that I played it so soon after
BG, so I was a little tired of the interface and all that. Then I got
NWN and the interface was so nice and IMO superior, that I stuck with it
and haven't looked back. :) 
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 3:19:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

In article <KjhHd.1317$bn5.816@fe1.columbus.rr.com>, everlast
<everlast@jmjservices.com> wrote:

> Visceral_Syn wrote:
> > quite confused at how anyone playin PC Games could not have heard of
> > Baldur's Gate Series long before NeverWinter Nights ( the pc game, not that
> > AOL-thing ) hit the stores. BG is quite possibly still the best AD&D based
> > PC RPG Game, EVER!
>
> I got a copy of it, but I had already been playing NWN and I just can't get
> past the interface now.

I /so/ know what you mean. I got a copy of BG when it came out and just
couldn't stomach the horrible interface. I'm afraid to say that I
de-installed it after only a few encounters from leaving the initial
town. NWN was like a sun rising over the darkness in terms of interface
IMHO.

Richard.
!