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AMD or Intel? & other questions on my build

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February 5, 2007 9:48:31 AM

It seems most hardware forums are completely Intel dominated now, to the point where if you even suggest going AMD you get flamed. Still, at the risk of being flamed, I have some questions for you all.

1. Instead of going conroe, how about going towards the low end of AM2 and maybe upgrade to an AM3 cpu later down the road (I realize I won't get the full benefits)? I won't argue that the core 2 duos dominate the benchmarks, but there is no core2 in the X2-3800 price range (the E4300 being 43$ off and the E6300 being 52$ off - prices based on newegg). Almost every thread I've read suggests Intel, but what about this option? What about considering power usage (the 35w 3800 beats out the E6300 in this link)?

Maybe some background would help. I'm doing a full rebuild, and the only components I've already bought are an Antec P180 and a 22" Dell.

I plan on using it for gaming, but performance isn't as important to me as features (specifically, SM4.0 - see GF8 below). Moreso than gaming, I'll use it to write graphics demos, which is why features are more important than performance (though, performance is still important). The GPU is far more important to me than the CPU choice, but I've already decided on a GPU, so my questions lie with the latter.

I won't overclock for at least a year, if ever (question below), and I'm new to assembling it myself (are these guides good references or would you suggest others?).

I don't plan on going SLI/crossfire (prefer single GPU solutions).

I do plan on upgrading, but only the CPU and GPU, preferably not mb/ram, and definitely no other components. I plan on keeping this system aside from these minor upgrades for at least 5 years (the last system I bought was in 2000/2001). I would like to keep the case & psu even after 5 years.

My goal with this build, features aside, would have to be near silence.

What I plan on buying (aside from MB/CPU) is this (prices from newegg and are in USD$ currency):

HD: Seagate Baraccuda ES - 95$
CPU fan: Zalman 9700 - 60$
CPU paste: Artic Silver - 6$
PSU: Corsair HX 520W - 130$
RAM: Corsair DDR2-800 4-4-4-12 - 244$ (204$ after rebate)
GPU: Leadtek 7300GS - 53$ (see below) (38$ after rebate)

If I go with Intel, I plan on buying these (you've seen 'em before, they're all over these forums):

MB: Gigabyte S3 - 119$
CPU: Conroe E6300 - 187$

If I go AMD, I'd get these:

MB: Asus M2N-E - 93$
CPU: X2-3800 (65w) - 135$

As for why I'm getting a 7300 GPU, I just need a graphics card to hold me over until the Geforce 8600 Ultra comes out. The 7300 I chose (after rebate) is one of the cheapest OpenGL 2.0 compliant cards on newegg, so that's the reason (i.e. the cheapest shader model 3.0 card - waiting to get shader model 4.0 with the 8600).

Prices before shipping (which fluctuates on newegg):
Price w/o mb/cpu: 588$ (533$ after rebate)
Intel total: 894$ (839$ after rebate)
AMD total: 816$ (761$ after rebate)
Difference: 78$

If anyone's curious about the total price including components I've already bought, the P180 I sniped when it was free shipping several months ago, and so I got it for 119$ flat, and I got the 22" LCD when it was also free shipping and a discount, ended up being 299$ (or 320$ after tax). I'm going to try and snipe most of these components when newegg offers free shipping on them (shipping on a case is no small fee!).

More questions:

2. Is the Barracuda ES worth getting over the non-ES version (5$ difference - but five bucks is five bucks)?

3. Should I get the 620w PSU instead of the 520w version above (30$ difference after rebate) to ensure I can reuse my case/psu after 5 years? I used these guides as well as my history with Corsair when choosing the PSU - it's in teir2 which is not bad. Also, I needed a PSU that'll work with my P180. Aside from the HX, I considered an Antec Neo HE 550w, which is also in teir 2 (and seems to be on sale right now for less than the 500w Antec Neo HE!).

4. Doesn't overclocking reduce the lifespan of components? Past the expected 5 year life of this build, I plan on giving it to family members (if I don't reuse the case/psu), or whatnot, so I actually expect it to live well past 5 years, just not be very useful for games/graphics after that time. If overclocking isn't that harmful (read: 10 years), I may consider the E4300 everyone's raving about.

5. These components will work together, correct? From what I've learned, it's recommended to get ram:fsb in a 1:1 ratio, and I think the mb/cpu combos I chose fit the ddr2-800 ram I chose?

6. Can anyone recommend a UPS guide? I know absolutely nothing about which one is best to choose. A good recommendation would also do (how about this OPTI-UPS 700w?). Is it necessary to have the watts of the UPS be greater than or equal to your PSU's watts?

7. Big question: which socket is more upgradable, the 775 or the AM2 (the AM2+ is not out yet, and I want to buy soon)? Say, if I buy a new cpu in 3 years time? If I absolutely have to buy a new motherboard, would Intel or AMD be more likely to fit with my choice of ram? I really don't want to buy mobo+ram as well as cpu, so I'm trying to plan ahead. Not having to buy new ram would be a great boon.

8. Just general comments on my build are appreciated. I put a lot of time (and links) into this post. I think this forum could use a sticky with the most commonly recommended parts (you see the E4300 a lot) as well as the most commonly recommended guides (like the PSU guides above). Rather than be a guide to <X> itself - just the most commonly recommended stuff, with links to guides.

Thank you.

Edit: I wrote all that with absolutely no mention of budget. Sorry. My budget would have to be around my prices quoted above, that is, around 900$, not including UPS (which I do need), or maybe 1000$ including UPS (pre-shipping). If I could save around 100$ by going with AMD, though (and not crippling my upgrade path), that would be wonderful. This is taking into consideration that I might never get those rebates (don't trust them!).

Edit #2: Sorry, I seem to have lots of questions. What would you guys recommend for a backup solution? Raid-1 or external usb drive? This is in addition to burning dvds, but I'd like an automated solution (raid-1 slows down all my writes, but doesn't require installing software to backup to external drive, and would also be cheaper I think - just a second drive of the same size. otoh, it's slower).
February 5, 2007 6:59:30 PM

You seem to have done very thorough planning.

1. C2D are currently recommended by most simply because of their much superior performance over the AMD. With Intel moving quickly to quads, it appears this dominance will likely continue in the mid- term - although there are no guarantees. I would strongly encourage spending the extra to get the E4300 and planning to upgrade later with Intel, but if this is out of your budget then go with the AMD

3. The 550W should take care of all you current needs, and probably your future needs as well. It is unlikely that a future graphics card or cpu will exceed its capacity. However, once again there are no guarantees. I generally favor not skimping on the PSU and suggest getting more in case requirements increase, but again it is a budget question. I would certainly not pass on the E4300 and get the AMD to have enough for the larger PSU.
You should always be aware that your power supply becomes less efficient over time - effectively lowering the power supplied. If you get a good power supply as planned, and there is not a large jump in requirements, then it should last you the 5 years you are hoping.

4. Mild overclocking, particularly if you have no voltage increases, should not decrease the life of components appreciably. But significant overclocking will. Also note, related to #2 above, that overclocking requires more power but again with mild overclocking only it should not be a problem on PSU size and life - but if you do substantial overclocking I would suggest the larger PSU.
February 5, 2007 7:08:58 PM

I think it really depends on what you want. If you are an AMD fan (you're clearly not a fanboy, otherwise you wouldn't even have made this thread) and prefer to use AMD if for no other reason than you like them, nabbing a cheap 3800+ or 4000+ (you could even get a 65nm part now) and OCing it until K8L comes out (and it seems it may be sooner than most people, including me, expected) that is entirely up to you. The big thing is that people think that not having an AM2+ mobo for their AM2+ processor will hold back the performance, but this is extremely unlikely. The platform changes that are being made are HUGE in terms of server use, but not so much for desktops. Dropping an AM2+ Kuma processor into an AM2 board will give you essentially the same bang, and for less buck (no new motherboard). K8 isn't bad, it's not tops right now. A low-end Opteron will OC to near / over 3Ghz on air and you'd have the performance equivalent of something around an E6600 or E6700.

Conversely, as you know and has been told to you, Intel has strong performing processors now and this doesn't seem like it's going to change. Both the AM2 and 775 sockets (and their current motherboards) will be upgradeable through the rest of the year and probably then some. Will AMD's new processors exceed Intel's when they are released? Probably. Will it be a huge advantage? I don't think so. C2D is a very good architecture and they OC very well.

I guess I'd lean in the direction of C2D, but if you're adventurous and like to play and want to be one of the guys that drops in an AM2+ processor to take it around the block...you're welcome to go for it.

edit - OCing in itself doesn't hurt the processor - it's the increasing the voltage that does. If you go for an AM2 system I'd say to hell with worrying about it. I know of people who have been running highly OCed rigs for over two years straight without issue.
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February 5, 2007 7:19:43 PM

I think you're using powers of persuasion to make yourself believe AMD is a better choice in some way or another.

If you're planning on upgrading later:
Go with Intel 775 Motherboard with great features and an Intel Pentium D 805/820. They're only $92-99, and although they get beat in performance to the 3800, you can set aside the $75 you save toward getting a Core2Duo later.

If you're concerned with power consumption:
This is really a moot point, since in order to get a very powerful video-card you're going to need a high power PSU anyway. If you're planning on running a cheap power supply, I guarantee you'll lose a lot of video-cards in the "12 Volt Wars".

Remember performance doesn't have a brand, only numbers:
Intel is on top right now. There's no viable reason to go with AMD AM2 over Core2Duo or even Dual Core Intel with the option of Core2Duo in the future.

$189 gets you an E4300. That's the best dollar per benchmark, since you can easily benchmark it. An X2 3800 isn't that much cheaper, to justify the loss of performance.
February 5, 2007 8:17:43 PM

Quote:
I think you're using powers of persuasion to make yourself believe AMD is a better choice in some way or another.

If you're planning on upgrading later:
Go with Intel 775 Motherboard with great features and an Intel Pentium D 805/820. They're only $92-99, and although they get beat in performance to the 3800, you can set aside the $75 you save toward getting a Core2Duo later.

If you're concerned with power consumption:
This is really a moot point, since in order to get a very powerful video-card you're going to need a high power PSU anyway. If you're planning on running a cheap power supply, I guarantee you'll lose a lot of video-cards in the "12 Volt Wars".

Remember performance doesn't have a brand, only numbers:
Intel is on top right now. There's no viable reason to go with AMD AM2 over Core2Duo or even Dual Core Intel with the option of Core2Duo in the future.

$189 gets you an E4300. That's the best dollar per benchmark, since you can easily benchmark it. An X2 3800 isn't that much cheaper, to justify the loss of performance.


You're entirely neglecting the K8L route.
February 5, 2007 8:21:42 PM

Quote:

You're entirely neglecting the K8L route.


If he's planning on going K8L, he'd be an idiot to use an AM2 motherboard with it.

You'd get better performance with an X2 5000 + AM2 motherboard than a K8L AM3 on an AM2 motherboard.

Get out of my face, seriously.

I didn't neglect anything.

The bottom line is, if you're going with a motherboard now, the best route is a 775 motherboard since it's GUARANTEED to run at 100% with a Core2Duo processor.

No one even knows anything about the K8L or if it's even going to do what it's promised to do.

He wants to build today, not in April.
February 5, 2007 11:24:16 PM

Quote:

You're entirely neglecting the K8L route.


If he's planning on going K8L, he'd be an idiot to use an AM2 motherboard with it.

You'd get better performance with an X2 5000 + AM2 motherboard than a K8L AM3 on an AM2 motherboard.

Get out of my face, seriously.

I didn't neglect anything.

The bottom line is, if you're going with a motherboard now, the best route is a 775 motherboard since it's GUARANTEED to run at 100% with a Core2Duo processor.

No one even knows anything about the K8L or if it's even going to do what it's promised to do.

He wants to build today, not in April.

You're are both confused and wrong.

AM2 is the current socket. AM2+ is HT3.0 and a few other enhancements, like split-plain voltage changing, etc. HT3.0 is essentially unnecessary in the desktop space. The current HT links aren't even being saturated with a 6000+ and have headroom to spare. If anything voltage control options that would help energy efficiency would be lacking in having an AM2 motherboard rather than an AM2+ motherboard. The quite general consensus is that having an AM2+ motherboard is far from a must. And there is an increasing amount of knowledge coming to light about K8L.

AM3 is another socket to be introduced next year with DDR3 support and other enhancements.

AM2 processors (should) work in AM2+, AM2+ processors will work with AM2, AM2+, and AM3. AM3 processors will work in AM2+ and AM3.

Get out of my face, seriously. Dude. Buddy. Padre. [insert tough sounding phrase here]
February 6, 2007 1:09:14 AM

just pick one and run with it, thats my recommendation =) If AMD fits yoru budget better right now, then go for it. Its simple really. Well really its not, i understand your dilema, as i'm struggling with which on to go with as well.
February 6, 2007 1:33:41 AM

Quote:
just pick one and run with it, thats my recommendation =) If AMD fits yoru budget better right now, then go for it. Its simple really. Well really its not, i understand your dilema, as i'm struggling with which on to go with as well.


AMD are currently more expensive and perform much worse than C2D. There's no justfication at all for buying an AMD now, and there's nothing to suggest thats going to change soon either. Intel already have the lead and are gonna pull away further when 45nm chips come out in 2nd half of this year.

Basically the only people still buying AMD's are either fanbois who will never change, or people who have been living under a rock for the past 6 months.
February 6, 2007 2:30:18 AM

If you do go the 775 socket don"t get sucked into a P4, almost all I,ve sold the customer have all complained about the fans being noisy and they run way to hot. Before the C2D's everyone exept fan boys (or girls) were saying bad things about the P4's and good things about AM2's, now Intel has decided to unload the P4 lemons cheap people are saying buy them. :?

Not this little black duck :p  :p 
AMD at the lower end, Intel at the higher end.
Easy

Upgrade paths have a habit of disappearing.
February 6, 2007 3:21:54 AM

i just did an upgrade like your. I had DDR2 533 ram left over and a 7900 Gt t o start but i upgraded from a p915+P4 550 to a p965+E6400 and let me tell you it was worth the $380 + shipping.

my java compiler runs WAY FASTER and so do my games i am playing PREY,quake 4 , and HL 2 Ep 1 Maxed out at high frame rates and

with the p4 and the MAC's in the computer lab it takes 2-4 sec or more to run a java for loop (1000-2000 loops) that prints numbers on screen .. with the 6400 BAM it's there no wait what so ever .. i love it .. HELL YES

also my core 2 has yet get above 36 c running full load .. very nice

As for the Price curve i think that they should take out the EE9xx intel CPU and some of the 8xx because who would buy it when for the same price you can get a core 2 you wouldn't so they should not be on the graph .. or update the prices so reflect the drop in sale price
February 6, 2007 9:08:49 PM

Quote:
Not at the lower end. Have a look at Toms charts.

http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/02/03/processor_price_perfo...

Check it out!



yeah but at the lower end they're comaring using old pentium 4's. Of course AMD are going to win over that old sh1t. Now lets talk about the C2D he's already planning to buy. No competition.

Anyway the whole price/performance curve thing is a bogus argument anyway.
I mean the easy winner on that alone will always be an old 386 or something. You can get those free from dumpsters, but I don't see anyone here picking that over a C2D.
February 8, 2007 9:44:57 AM

Lets just hope not everyone wears blinkers like you. If everyone just bought C2Ds (Not that everyone can afford to, I still sell Celeron's and Sempron's, the latter is good for a real budget build as you get Geforce graphics onboard). If AMD went under do you really think Intel would keep there prices low? Or visa versa 8O
Lets hope not.
As I've stated in another post I am building an AMD system now, my main reason is my bosses brother is an Intel fanboy and even when AMD was better I couldn't sell them. (Unless a customer asked for one), and I want to know how to properly build both AMD and Intel, get plenty of experience with Intel.

I am not a Fanboy and freely admit C2D,s are the best at the moment, I also own both Intel and AMD machines. I do lean towards AMD more because my first build was an AMD 386dx 40MHZ system and I also always try and support the Underdog.
If AMD had not dropped there prices when the C2D's came out I would not be building one.

My names Billy not bloody silly. :lol:  :lol: 
February 8, 2007 9:58:21 AM

Also it is important to remember a lot of people work to a budget, so to blindly say buy C2D's at any cost is just plain silly. You try come up with unlimited funds with 2,3 or more children and a house mortgage.

I never try and push family who come in to our shop into buying more than they can afford, that just plain criminal. 8O 8O

and dishonest.

Anyway don't take what I say personally, I just need to let of a bit of steam, I don't want to be involved in a slanging match that ends up getting nasty, I just want you to realize not everyone can afford the best.

I have been trying to come up with the money for a new build for over 2 years, by putting parts on lay by and paying them of. All you dirty swines buy and building new systems makes me sick. :lol:  :x :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry: 
February 8, 2007 2:21:07 PM

it's not about forcing people to buy more then they can afford it is about the longevity of the system. it would be better to spend 2k on a system and go broke now and have it last 10 years (like that will happen) then it is to spend $500 every year upgrading.

and when it come to longevity the core 2 duo wins. an good 965 board will accept quad-core and that's what counts.

also i have know lots of people that have no money but still have a 52" TV. also if you were smart you would save up 1-2k before you upgraded.

------------ the following post might contain material that will incite flaming ---
i have used around 9 Intel CPU's starting with the 386 going to the core 2 . i have also used a K62 (which is still running and which i liked). my uncle had a 1Ghz Athlon and it sucked hard core. it over heated on a daily bases. he had to go out and but a monster CPU cooler to keep it cold . I on the other hand have P4's (2.4, 3.4) run just fine on the stock cooler sometimes less with out getting over 50c

so even though i have no problem with my AMD' i will never buy an new one because it not worth the risk, i have never had any problems with Intel CPU's and ever when AMD was ahead the performance difference was not enough to justify it.
----------------------------- end of flaming post ----------------------

so end the end you should buy the C2D because if you are no willing to pay for good parts then you should hold off your Upgrading . i know people that have bought cheep computer (under 1k) or have bought from the wrong people (dell) if you do you will pay the cost of having to talk to tech support and fill out lots of RMA stuff. so if your not going to build your own computer out of quality parts at lest buy from good companies like IBM (or who ever bought the computers ), sony (the rest of Sony may suck but the computer and the tech support are great), HP is not bad as long as you buy the higher priced models.

---Gasp !! that was way to much info Gasp!!!
February 8, 2007 7:38:47 PM

Your still missing the point, I have been trying to build a new system for 2 years, In that time I,ve been caught out with about 5 main Motherboard changes and 6 CPU changes, I love computers and need up to date computers in my job as a Computer Tech, but feeding my children and paying the mortgage is priority.
There is a lot of people out there who are in the same boat.

If I save for the best I would never get any computers cause theres always something new.
At this stage in my life (and theres lots of people in the same boat or worse) I'll end up with what I can afford. :cry:  :cry: 
It,s the same reason you will not see only good cars on the road. We can't all afford the best.

Nothing you or anyone else can change that. :roll: :roll:
February 8, 2007 7:50:12 PM

You're ALL missing the point, and still trying to shove AMD down your own throats and you expect us to back up your choice and say, "Yeah you're right", but we can't, because you're not right. You're wrong.

There's absolutely no reason at all to go with an AM2 set-up unless you're getting the parts used and they end up being cheaper than a decent 775 motherboard with a Pentium D.

The reason? You're guaranteed upgrade options with the LGA board and the Pentium D. The Pentium D when over-clocked can perform on par with AM2's, maybe the AM2's will have a slight advantage, but you're sacrificing that to make sure you can upgrade to Core2Duo later.

Especially when the E4300 comes down to $113.

Your options:
Decent AM2 Motherboard - $120
AM2 X2 3800 - $100ish retail

Decent 775 Motherboard - $100-120
Pentium D 805 - $92

Same amount, WAY more longevity with the latter.

In the end, you're trying to eat a spoonful of AMD meal and expect everyone to tell you it's the best value, when it's NOT. There's a reason sites/newsletters and headlines are reading, "Intel on TOP, where's AMD's answer?" and that's not JUST because of high-end.
February 9, 2007 12:16:22 AM

I,m not just talking about me at the moment, I,ve made my decision and I,ll live with it. Ive built, rebuilt, upgraded both intel, systems and AMD system for over 12 years now. I have never bought the latest and greatest. Never had the money. If I did have the Money Yes I would buy and build a C2D system, send some my way and I'll do it tomorrow. :lol: 

What I'm trying to say is if anyone comes to me with a budget of (talking Aussie dollars now, everything is dearer over here) say $1000 dollars and that all they have got and they need a computer now(Remebering I work as a PC tech system bulder salesperson) I will build or supply what they can afford now. The boss would sack me if I said go away and save up some more mone y so you can afford a C2D system.
Hes aready made up is mind so he would go down the the next pc shop in town and they would sell him one (Right or wrong they mainly sell AMD)

On the other hand if a customer came in with a budget of $1300 or more I would not recommed anything else but C2D based systems.
For me I buy what I want but for other people I will always reccomend what is best for there present need AMD or Intel.

Thats what we should all do. If you read my earlier post you would see thats excatly what I did.

Quote:
AMD at the lower end, Intel at the higher end.
Easy


What you don't seem to understand (and your not alone) that sometimes if some says they have a budget and need a computer now, thats what they mean.
At the start of every school year that what happens at our shop.

I,m not meaning to be annoying but sometime its just not possible to get more money.
I live in Country NSW in Australia and we are having the worst drought on record. The way things are in the modern world it's almost essential to have a PC.
So the farming familes who are stuggling have only so much money and can't get anymore( no rain, no crops, no money). They buy what they can afford.

Why am I saying all this? Simple really, I feel if we are going to give advice on this forum we have to try and be unbiased (I did say try :)  and listen to what they say properly. In other words if they say they have a budget we should try to stick to that and not say things like just spend X amount more and buy this great product, cause I like it.

Let try and be understanding to all budget and all tastes. 8)
February 9, 2007 12:26:39 AM

Oh and the other thing, honestly not everyong upgrades and that doesn't allways work anyway. What about those poor sods who bought Socker 478's and Socket A's just before they upgraded there sockets.

Heaps of people get caught out in the old upgrade cycle especially in Australia. Our turn over is not as great so quite often once a product is at the end of it's life Mobo and CPU vanish in side 2 to 4 months. woops what upgrade. 8O

Now I'm not sure what prices your quote for you Decent Mobos for 775's but in Australia Motherboards to suit C2D's not P4's(Boards to Suit P4,s alone are cheaper) are anywhere from $40 to $80 dearer then the equiviant AM2 boards. So thats what I'm basing my argument on.

And finally to finish I love Vegemite :!: :!:
So there. :lol:  :lol: 
http://www.vegemite.com.au/
February 9, 2007 2:50:10 AM

Quote:
I,m not just talking about me at the moment, I,ve made my decision and I,ll live with it. Ive built, rebuilt, upgraded both intel, systems and AMD system for over 12 years now. I have never bought the latest and greatest. Never had the money. If I did have the Money Yes I would buy and build a C2D system, send some my way and I'll do it tomorrow. :lol: 

What I'm trying to say is if anyone comes to me with a budget of (talking Aussie dollars now, everything is dearer over here) say $1000 dollars and that all they have got and they need a computer now(Remebering I work as a PC tech system bulder salesperson) I will build or supply what they can afford now. The boss would sack me if I said go away and save up some more mone y so you can afford a C2D system.
Hes aready made up is mind so he would go down the the next pc shop in town and they would sell him one (Right or wrong they mainly sell AMD)

On the other hand if a customer came in with a budget of $1300 or more I would not recommed anything else but C2D based systems.
For me I buy what I want but for other people I will always reccomend what is best for there present need AMD or Intel.

Thats what we should all do. If you read my earlier post you would see thats excatly what I did.

AMD at the lower end, Intel at the higher end.
Easy


What you don't seem to understand (and your not alone) that sometimes if some says they have a budget and need a computer now, thats what they mean.
At the start of every school year that what happens at our shop.

I,m not meaning to be annoying but sometime its just not possible to get more money.
I live in Country NSW in Australia and we are having the worst drought on record. The way things are in the modern world it's almost essential to have a PC.
So the farming familes who are stuggling have only so much money and can't get anymore( no rain, no crops, no money). They buy what they can afford.

Why am I saying all this? Simple really, I feel if we are going to give advice on this forum we have to try and be unbiased (I did say try :)  and listen to what they say properly. In other words if they say they have a budget we should try to stick to that and not say things like just spend X amount more and buy this great product, cause I like it.

Let try and be understanding to all budget and all tastes. 8)

Don't you read tech news, visit the CPU forum, or anything like that?

K10 will be AM2 compatible. Buying an AM2 system leaves about a year and a half of upgrade opportunities. A new socket 775 system -may- be Intel 45nm compatible - we don't know yet. If it's like any of their recent new processor releases, a new chipset may be in order.

That being said, there are -tons- of upgrade options for a new 775 system now. In a few months quad-core processors will be cheaper, and when Intel releases its 45nm processors the current 65nm versions will drop in price.

The bottom line is that neither AM2 or a 775 is a dead-end for upgrades. C2D performs better now, absolutely, and there are upgrades to be had. If he wants to buy an AM2 system, he'll get decent performance now and be able to upgrade to an Agena processor in the summer and get an enormous performance boost. Neither sounds all that dumb to me, it's all about preference.
February 9, 2007 5:12:21 AM

engrpiman, this is not flaming by the way, but "even when AMD was ahead the the performance difference was not great enough" im sorry but that is up for debate as a old 754 3000+ @2008mhz kicked my friends 775 Pentium D OC'd to 3.2 ghz, hands down, it ran all over it. Same ram different mobo obviously. th3 3d mark test of cpu was too funny to be allowed on a forum...
February 9, 2007 6:17:36 AM

Quote:
a new chipset may be in order


I'd bet on it for the Penryn. Four new chipsets already planned for the year, with 1333 FSB support in the G35 that's next to be released.

The set after that only supports DDR3, so staying on top of that will be the same as it ever was.
February 9, 2007 6:22:18 AM

Quote:
I,m not just talking about me at the moment, I,ve made my decision and I,ll live with it. Ive built, rebuilt, upgraded both intel, systems and AMD system for over 12 years now. I have never bought the latest and greatest. Never had the money. If I did have the Money Yes I would buy and build a C2D system, send some my way and I'll do it tomorrow. :lol: 

What I'm trying to say is if anyone comes to me with a budget of (talking Aussie dollars now, everything is dearer over here) say $1000 dollars and that all they have got and they need a computer now(Remebering I work as a PC tech system bulder salesperson) I will build or supply what they can afford now. The boss would sack me if I said go away and save up some more mone y so you can afford a C2D system.
Hes aready made up is mind so he would go down the the next pc shop in town and they would sell him one (Right or wrong they mainly sell AMD)

On the other hand if a customer came in with a budget of $1300 or more I would not recommed anything else but C2D based systems.
For me I buy what I want but for other people I will always reccomend what is best for there present need AMD or Intel.

Thats what we should all do. If you read my earlier post you would see thats excatly what I did.

AMD at the lower end, Intel at the higher end.
Easy


What you don't seem to understand (and your not alone) that sometimes if some says they have a budget and need a computer now, thats what they mean.
At the start of every school year that what happens at our shop.

I,m not meaning to be annoying but sometime its just not possible to get more money.
I live in Country NSW in Australia and we are having the worst drought on record. The way things are in the modern world it's almost essential to have a PC.
So the farming familes who are stuggling have only so much money and can't get anymore( no rain, no crops, no money). They buy what they can afford.

Why am I saying all this? Simple really, I feel if we are going to give advice on this forum we have to try and be unbiased (I did say try :)  and listen to what they say properly. In other words if they say they have a budget we should try to stick to that and not say things like just spend X amount more and buy this great product, cause I like it.

Let try and be understanding to all budget and all tastes. 8)
My last 8 builds were AMD.

I'll never go back to a single core setup again. You just get totally spoiled when you can run 3-4 apps and not see that stupid hourglass. Now I understand the whole budget argument. But it's hard to argue when soon enough, you'll have C2Ds a breath over $100. Not only is it VERY attractive to have 2 cores workin for ya, but the performance increase you have over what AMD has to offer today, as well as the incredible OC potential that EVERY Core 2 Duo ships with is hard to pass up. It's not about David and Goliath, but what can you do for me today? I'm not totally on the Intel bandwagon. Right now, they're top dog. Who knows what AMD has up it's sleeve in the next 2 years?

It's all about bang for the buck, brother. And right now, Intel is offering Howitzers.
February 9, 2007 7:11:26 AM

Shizza - if you're still planning on going with an AM2 CPU, DONT get the M2N-E motherboard, simply put it's horrible.

Maximum voltage to RAM is 1.95v, overclocking isn't that good and there's a thread on anandtech (I think) dedicated to it where everyone agrees they wouldn't buy it if they had the chance again.
February 11, 2007 3:07:53 PM

Thank you everyone for your input. I didn't mean to start a flamewar, sorry.

I've pretty much been convinced at this point to go with Intel. Still, I can't choose between an E4300 and an E6300.

The E4300 is the better overclocker (or maybe I should say easier overclocker?) but doesn't support virtualization. For those of you interested in Vista, this may not matter, but for some of us, the prospect of running windows natively in linux is interesting.

Check out the Xen project. Still, I don't know if it's worth the "possibility" of running windows in linux (not very many testimonials - although perhaps people normally interested in Xen aren't also worried about new processors, I don't know). I plan on running XP as my main OS. DX10 doesn't matter to me, although DX10 features do (I'll be using them in OpenGL, which will work fine with XP).

I've read a lot more on these forums and other forums and have changed some of my decisions. As it stands:

What I've already bought:
Antec P180
Corsair HX 620w (this was 20$ more than the 520w at the time I purchased, due to free shipping & rebate, otherwise I'd have gone with 520w)

What I plan on buying:
cpu: E4300 or E6300
mb: Gigabyte DS3
cpu cooler: Scythe Infinity (based on the cooling forum's hatred for Zalmans and this)
hd: Seagate Barracuda 7200.10
cpu paste: G751 Shin-Etsu (based on this)
ram: Corsair DDR2-800 4-4-4-12
cd drive: some piece of shit that'll break within 31 days (with a 30 day warranty) - sorry, I've had bad luck with optical drives :) 
gpu: see my first post.

I've discovered this awesome article on SPCR that has become the new goal for my system.

Questions I still have:

1. Anyone mounted the Scythe Infinity on a DS3? The Ninja looks almost exactly the same as the Infinity, but I'm guessing there's something warranting the price difference.
2. Anyone used a Raptor in a P180 before? I'm actually shooting for a mostly silent PC, though if the Raptor goes well with a P180, I might consider it. Space is not my concern, just speed and silence.
3. Good? Bad?

Thank you.
February 11, 2007 3:55:50 PM

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engrpiman, this is not flaming by the way, but "even when AMD was ahead the the performance difference was not great enough" im sorry but that is up for debate as a old 754 3000+ @2008mhz kicked my friends 775 Pentium D OC'd to 3.2 ghz, hands down, it ran all over it. Same ram different mobo obviously. th3 3d mark test of cpu was too funny to be allowed on a forum


first off lets me correct you .. I said " this may incite flaming" I did not say that it was flaming

Also I had a 3.4 Ghz P4 550 for a few years and while it might not have been the top dog it was fast enough. Also i never had any problems with temps. my friend Ben who was a Computer Science major had a Athlon (2ghz) i don't know the exact facts that was running at around 60-70 .. he had to watch it while playing games.. me and my friends Andrew and Paul with our P4 500, P4 620, P4 520 never hand any problems , our temps were in the 35-55 c range .. I will take reliability and piece of mind, knowing that my CPU will not over heat over a few points on the benchmarks

yes those numbers were with the stock intel and AMD heatsinks because you can take a CPU running at 5000c and make it run at 20c if you apply enough copper water and or Liquid Nitrogen or Liquid He.. so blah
February 11, 2007 4:03:07 PM

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Almost every thread I've read suggests Intel, but what about this option? What about considering power usage (the 35w 3800 beats out the E6300 in this link)?


The EE versions are more expensive though!


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CPU fan: Zalman 9700 - 60$


Put that $60 on the intel cpu, problem solved!


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4. Doesn't overclocking reduce the lifespan of components? Past the expected 5 year life of this build, I plan on giving it to family members (if I don't reuse the case/psu), or whatnot, so I actually expect it to live well past 5 years, just not be very useful for games/graphics after that time. If overclocking isn't that harmful (read: 10 years), I may consider the E4300 everyone's raving about.

Depends on what the definition of overclocking is. Would underclocking a CPU make it last 20 years?
I don't think so. When you consider cheaper, lower clocked versions than the other models then surely they would last just as long as an X6800


Quote:

7. Big question: which socket is more upgradable, the 775 or the AM2 (the AM2+ is not out yet, and I want to buy soon)? Say, if I buy a new cpu in 3 years time? If I absolutely have to buy a new motherboard, would Intel or AMD be more likely to fit with my choice of ram? I really don't want to buy mobo+ram as well as cpu, so I'm trying to plan ahead. Not having to buy new ram would be a great boon.


IMO AM2 was a huge farce anyway. They'll probably do everyone over again. There is hints of AM2+ and AM3. If they are all compatible what is the point of making them? The current line of AM2's are on their last legs if you ask me, I wouldn't bet on AMD for upgradability till their new processors come out.

3 years is quite a long time though, you might be able to drop a current "Top end" model into a 775, maybe something like a quad core kentsfield or a penryn when they come out.

As for AM2, I personally can't see a good performance offering being around in 3 years time that will work with a motherboard available on the market today.
February 11, 2007 6:22:01 PM

When you're considering processors and looking at prices, it's also a good idea to check the average price of the motherboards.
I've noticed that intel motherboards with some decent features (i.e. good overclocking), at the moment, are maybe about 30% dearer than a similar AM2 motherboard - and a 939 board is even cheaper again.

Anyhow, I'd be careful considering a E4300 over E6300/6400.

Tom's Hardware reviews showed that the power for a given clock of the E63/6400s vs 6600 were quite close.

Take a look at this review for the E4300:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=290...

The E4300 isn't quite as close to the higher end Core2s.
February 11, 2007 9:37:24 PM

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The E4300 isn't quite as close to the higher end Core2s.


I'm still waiting on a real comparison. A mild overclock on not just the E4300 but the rest of the line as well, then compare numbers.

I don't see how they can make these comparisons and talk about "bang for the buck", ignoring any potential increase the others have when overclocked.

Seems like just E4300 pumping.
!