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Rhomal's Commentary - Old school in NWN 2 - Part 1

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Anonymous
June 26, 2005 1:58:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

With a bit of a splash I posted my first commentary. Overall I felt it
generated some interesting debate and I thank those that took a
critical look as the ISSUE rather then the presentation. With that said
this commentary probably won't be as... controversial per se, but I
hope will generate just as much thoughtful debate.

As of late the amount of posts on the forums have increased as it
relates to micro-managing your PC/party. Some people fear NWN2 will
turn into the Sims. Others believe it adds an extra element of
strategy. I am in the 'strategy' camp for the most part. And I feel
this is a topic that certainly deserves a deeper look.

Back in the day during SSI's heyday CRPG's we're more then click
left mouse, pick up 133t l00t, drink insta-heal potion, rise, repeat as
needed or better known as 'Diablo-ism'. And don't get me started
on how that it's called a 'CRPG' by some. Please, at best
that's an adventure game with some RPG statistic elements.

Full Article:

http://www.nwn2news.net/modules/news/article.php?storyi...
Anonymous
June 26, 2005 5:58:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

On 26 Jun 2005 09:58:31 -0700, "Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Back in the day during SSI's heyday CRPG's we're more then click
>left mouse, pick up 133t l00t, drink insta-heal potion, rise, repeat as
>needed or better known as 'Diablo-ism'.

The gold box games? The combat may have been tactical, but those games
were just hack n' slashers to you know. They were about getting better
items so you can fight the next battle better. The thin as paper
storylines were just an excuse to get your level 40 uber characters to
the next fight so then can get a +6 sword to replace their pathetic
+5s.

**Almost every CRPG ever made can be described exactly in that
manner.** There are only a few exceptions.

>And don't get me started
>on how that it's called a 'CRPG' by some.

I love it when someone comes along and tells me what is\isn't a CRPG.
I never felt like I was playing an adventure game when I was playing
Diablo. Thanks for straightening me out!

>Please, at best
>that's an adventure game with some RPG statistic elements.

Ultima 7, the greatest CRPG of all time, felt more like a Sierra
adventure game most of the time then a traditional CRPG.
June 26, 2005 9:39:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

On 26 Jun 2005 09:58:31 -0700, "Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com> dared
speak in front of ME:

>With a bit of a splash I posted my first commentary. Overall I felt it
>generated some interesting debate and I thank those that took a
>critical look as the ISSUE rather then the presentation. With that said
>this commentary probably won't be as... controversial per se, but I
>hope will generate just as much thoughtful debate.
<Snip>
>Back in the day during SSI's heyday CRPG's we're more then click
>left mouse, pick up 133t l00t, drink insta-heal potion, rise, repeat as
>needed or better known as 'Diablo-ism'. And don't get me started
>on how that it's called a 'CRPG' by some. Please, at best
>that's an adventure game with some RPG statistic elements.

Gee, I wonder why you had such trouble getting people to look at the
issue rather than the presentation. Couldn't be because you
intersperse your content with bullshit...

As for your article... it really sounds like you're confusing RPG with
Tactical Combat Game. You're not proposing anything that actually
puts the "RP" back into the game; your words are all strategy
focused, not character focused.

Nothing inherently wrong with that, if (as I said) you're looking for
a Tactical Combat Game. But be honest about it, and dont' call it a
CRPG.

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Anonymous
June 26, 2005 11:05:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Mike S. wrote:
> On 26 Jun 2005 09:58:31 -0700, "Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> I love it when someone comes along and tells me what is\isn't a CRPG.
> I never felt like I was playing an adventure game when I was playing
> Diablo. Thanks for straightening me out!
>

I thought 'commentary' was fairly clear as expessing ones opinions on a
matter. Hence if you dont want to read another ones take you prob
shouldnt read such.

I dont recall telling anyone in the article my opinion was the only one
or the 'right' one.

As for your other comments, you are entitled to them. I obviouslly
disagree on several point however.

My 2 coppers
Anonymous
June 26, 2005 11:09:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

>Gee, I wonder why you had such trouble getting people to look at the
issue rather than the presentation. Couldn't be because you
intersperse your content with bullshit...

Sometimes a pill is bitter.

> As for your article... it really sounds like you're confusing RPG with
Tactical Combat Game. You're not proposing anything that actually
puts the "RP" back into the game; your words are all strategy
focused, not character focused.

If you see the last line in the article you will see part 2 will cover
what I feel needs to be done specificly. This was just a overview on my
thoughts.
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 2:46:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

>You post your comments. I reply to them. Welcome to Usenet.

You did not reply in the same manor however, you put words and
implications in my mouth. As if i told you what a CRPG is. I did not. I
was clearly explaining what my views were and was not holding a gun to
anyways head to agree.

Welcome to reality.
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 2:58:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Rhomal wrote:
>>Please, at best
>>that's an adventure game with some RPG statistic elements.

Mike S. wrote:
> I never felt like I was playing an adventure game when I was playing
> Diablo. Thanks for straightening me out!

True, Diablo is more of an action/arcade type game
than a true adventure, much less an RPG.
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 4:24:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

On 26 Jun 2005 19:05:24 -0700, "Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I thought 'commentary' was fairly clear as expessing ones opinions on a
>matter. Hence if you dont want to read another ones take you prob
>shouldnt read such.

You post your comments. I reply to them. Welcome to Usenet.
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 10:08:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

"Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>>You post your comments. I reply to them. Welcome to Usenet.
>
>You did not reply in the same manor however, you put words and
>implications in my mouth. As if i told you what a CRPG is. I did not. I
>was clearly explaining what my views were and was not holding a gun to
>anyways head to agree.

Someone who uses "we're" for were and "manor" for manner cannot claim to
be explaining anything _clearly_.

>Welcome to reality.

Welcome to usenet, where people can only read what you write, not what
you meant.

Your article speaks of character sheets looking like excel sheets in
older crpgs.
Yeah they did.
Why?
Because they were copies of what a pencil and paper D&D player would
have on his character sheet.
The difference is the P&P player _needed_ those stats for the various
dice rolls, while the computer player didn't, since the computer "DM"
can handle all of that with no help from the player.

What exactly does seeing a characters open doors/bend bars percentage
add to the game when you can't change that stat?
Nothing at all, you simply try the door and succeed/fail at opening it -
seeing your percentage on the character sheet adds nothing since YOU
aren't making dice rolls, the computer is.

There's no difference between my seeing a 15% open doors chance on my
character sheet and not seeing it, when all I can do either way is try
to open the door and have the computer roll to see if I succeed.

What a surprise that they soon disappeared from VIEW, except in the few
games where they were needed.

Computer users used to be a fringe element and one who didn't mind
memorizing loads of commands and esoteric stuff.

Since the majority of computer users are not the nerdish hobbyists we
once were, the _excessive_ minutiae of games has also dropped.

Why? Because it's not necessary, it never was except to a VERY small
minority.

The same kind of minority that memorize the details and blueprints of
Star Trek or Star Wars ships.

Game companies CANNOT survive making games that cater to a tiny
minority, not at the prices game cost to make these days.

Of course, if it bugs you so much, why don't YOU head off to sourceforge
and build what you consider to be a proper crpg?

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 4:47:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Xocyll wrote:
> "Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
> the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>
> >>You post your comments. I reply to them. Welcome to Usenet.
> >
> >You did not reply in the same manor however, you put words and
> >implications in my mouth. As if i told you what a CRPG is. I did not. I
> >was clearly explaining what my views were and was not holding a gun to
> >anyways head to agree.
>
> Someone who uses "we're" for were and "manor" for manner cannot claim to
> be explaining anything _clearly_.
>
> >Welcome to reality.
>
> Welcome to usenet, where people can only read what you write, not what
> you meant.

a. You seemed to have understood were = we've and so forth. Thus it
wasnt too difficult apparently for you to grasp what I was speaking of.
On that note, I find it hard to beleive how one with any reasonable
IQ/logic skills could equate a 'commentary' to a dicatation/factual
document. Maybe I assume too much from the typical usenet person, such
as yourself, to make the difference between one speaking opinion and
speaking fact. My bad if so.

b. As you people love to point out, this is usenet, not my thesis. Get
over it.


>
> Your article speaks of character sheets looking like excel sheets in
> older crpgs.
> Yeah they did.
> Why?
> Because they were copies of what a pencil and paper D&D player would
> have on his character sheet.
> The difference is the P&P player _needed_ those stats for the various
> dice rolls, while the computer player didn't, since the computer "DM"
> can handle all of that with no help from the player.

Fair enough, but I dont recall stating we should bring them back in the
same form, or at all. I was using it as a example that CRPGs in the
past were more complex. It was a handy example to make a point.

>
> What exactly does seeing a characters open doors/bend bars percentage
> add to the game when you can't change that stat?

Some players want that info to make a informed decesion. During several
situations in a CRPG time maybe a factor and those stats can effect
what you do with the little time you have to find a soluation.


>
> What a surprise that they soon disappeared from VIEW, except in the few
> games where they were needed.

I do not beleive dumbing down by 'hiding' such info does much either
except simplify things for the ADD diablo players.

>
> Computer users used to be a fringe element and one who didn't mind
> memorizing loads of commands and esoteric stuff.
>
> Since the majority of computer users are not the nerdish hobbyists we
> once were, the _excessive_ minutiae of games has also dropped.
>
> Why? Because it's not necessary, it never was except to a VERY small
> minority.
>
> The same kind of minority that memorize the details and blueprints of
> Star Trek or Star Wars ships.
>
> Game companies CANNOT survive making games that cater to a tiny
> minority, not at the prices game cost to make these days.

I do not disgaree on the one hand the old way of doing things wont work
anymore. OTOH I disagree it should be all chucked out the window. We
need to find new ways that are both entertaining and informative. This
all or nothing attitude perplexes me. It seems many people think you
either have to have a excel spread sheet CRPG or a diablo clone. I
beleive there is a middle ground to be found.

>
> Of course, if it bugs you so much, why don't YOU head off to sourceforge
> and build what you consider to be a proper crpg?
>

Already did, thanks.

Rhomal
Admin of NWN 2 News
www.nwn2news.net
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 7:48:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Mike S. wrote:
> On 26 Jun 2005 09:58:31 -0700, "Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>SNIP

>
> Ultima 7, the greatest CRPG of all time, felt more like a Sierra
> adventure game most of the time then a traditional CRPG.


I must take isue with this opinion. Planescape:Torment is the greates
CRPG of all time - and is consistently voted into the top 10's of all
time games lists.

No other CRPG has the depth of discovery and roleplaying that PS:T does

Kharsis
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 7:48:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:48:41 +1200, Kharsis <kharsis@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:

>I must take isue with this opinion. Planescape:Torment is the greates
>CRPG of all time - and is consistently voted into the top 10's of all
>time games lists.

I may very well agree with you after I actually get around to playing
it. :) 
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 10:48:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

On 26 Jun 2005 22:46:44 -0700, "Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>You did not reply in the same manor

If you mean manner, you're right. I left out the pomposity displayed
in your original post.

>As if i told you what a CRPG is. I did not.

You decided that an RPG has to have some grand tactical element in
order to be classified as one. You decided that an RPG has to have a
party to really be classified as one. Your entire post is just another
what is / what isn't a CRPG. I've seen enough of them to last a
lifetime. The problem with these stupid discussions is that as soon as
someone tells us what their narrow minded view of what a CRPG is, it
instantly disqualifies games that have long been considered CRPGs by
everyone and their grandmother.
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 10:48:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:58:14 -0400, Frank Nospam
<yahoo_com@francis.uy> wrote:

>True, Diablo is more of an action/arcade type game
> than a true adventure, much less an RPG.

I'd be more inclined to go with the action label then the adventure
label. But my definition of action would require gamer reflexes to win
the day, rather then player character 'reflexes' (stats) to decide the
winner. Diablo relies far more on the player character rather then
the gamer, so I personally classify it as a CRPG. I think action
gamers would be happier with something like Half life or Doom anyway.
:-P
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 11:07:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

>You decided that an RPG has to have a party to really be classified as one.

It is quite clear its not possible to have a rational and educated
discussion with you if your going to keep putting words in my mouth and
flat just make things up.

Enjoy.
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 3:04:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

On 27 Jun 2005 19:07:37 -0700, "Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>>You decided that an RPG has to have a party to really be classified as one.
>
>It is quite clear its not possible to have a rational and educated
>discussion with you if your going to keep putting words in my mouth and
>flat just make things up.

-->But I think most of us can agree the lack of almost any kind of
serious party management deeply left NWN1 nerfed on a strategic level
at the very least.. <--

I came to that conclusion from reading that line. While I still
disagree with it, I used it in a different context then what you
actually meant. For that much, I apologize. I stand by the rest of my
post however.
June 28, 2005 9:23:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

On 26 Jun 2005 22:46:44 -0700, "Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com> dared
speak in front of ME:

>>You post your comments. I reply to them. Welcome to Usenet.
>
>You did not reply in the same manor however,

Like he said: welcome to usenet.

>I was clearly explaining what my views were and was not holding a gun to
>anyways head to agree.

IIRC, you stated at the start that you had a lot of 'feedback' over
presentation (rather than content) on your previous article. Now
you're getting it again.

Perhaps you are not as clear as you like to think.
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June 28, 2005 9:23:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

On 26 Jun 2005 19:09:15 -0700, "Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com> dared
speak in front of ME:

>>Gee, I wonder why you had such trouble getting people to look at the
>issue rather than the presentation. Couldn't be because you
>intersperse your content with bullshit...
>
>Sometimes a pill is bitter.

What's funny, is that when Mike called you on this you blamed him for
misinterpreting you and got all defensive about "expressing opinions."

When I call you on it, you back into a wall and defend your opinions
as though they were facts.

You owe one of us an apology.

>> As for your article... it really sounds like you're confusing RPG with
>Tactical Combat Game. You're not proposing anything that actually
>puts the "RP" back into the game; your words are all strategy
>focused, not character focused.
>
>If you see the last line in the article you will see part 2 will cover
>what I feel needs to be done specificly.

More 'tactical decisions,' according to the tone set by article one.
Unless you're doing an about-face halfway through.


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Anonymous
June 29, 2005 12:38:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

"Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1119805111.667974.163430
@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

>Back in the day during SSI’s heyday CRPG’s we’re more then click left
>mouse, pick up 133t l00t, drink insta-heal potion, rise, repeat as
>needed or better known as ‘Diablo-ism’. And don’t get me started on how
>that it’s called a ‘CRPG’ by some. Please, at best that’s an adventure
>game with some RPG statistic elements.

I played most of the gold-box games, and I wonder if you are not looking
back at them through rose-colored glasses. The gold-box games were
nothing but a straight dungeon crawl. Sure, it wasn't mouse-driven
(entirely keyboard) but your goals were to find a more powerful sword,
better armor or more gold with which to buy stuff. All in all, not that
much different from today.

>I recall playing several CRPG’s by SSI and Sir Tech years back. A
>character sheet looked like a excel spreadsheet from IBM’s assets. With
>all the ability and skills scores that was a couple pages. Then there
>was how each piece of armor and equipment had their own stats and
>abilities, your PC’s could starve, become ill and become tired over
>time. Not to mention all the tactical elements all these pieces as whole
>brought to the table during combat. And in fact these games were FUN.
>Challenging? Yes, certainly. But over coming these obstacles was quite
>rewarding.

A character sheet does not a CRPG make. At best, it is an electronic
version of the stained piece of paper that you carried around in your
binder. At most, it is an instrument of confusion that is a very real
distraction from the game itself. It intimidates people and tricks them
into thinking that they have to know what each stat does down to the
percentage.

<snip>

>I feel this dumbing down of CRPG’s did not start with our favorite
>bastard child we like to kick around, Diablo. But farther back. IMO it
>goes as far back as FPS and later RTS type games.

>Doom. ‘Doom’ you say? Yes, Doom and all the clones that followed. (I
>know, the original Wolfenstine was out before Doom, but FPS’s didn’t hit
>mainstream status until Doom.) It seems to me with the massive
>popularity of ‘click first, think later’ games like FPS’s publishers and
>developers wanted to jump on this money wagon. So the thinking man’s
>(and woman’s) games took a back seat and we were flooded with arcade
>twitch games for years. And this spawned an entire generation who grew
>up with these kinds of mindless games that never experienced or were
>exposed to games such as the gold box games or heard of games like the
>Civ line.

Your elitist attitude is showing through with comments and phrases llike
this:"...Thinking man's (and woman's)...mindless games..." Just because
you find them boring and mindless does not mean that others do. One of
the reasons that games like that are so successful is that you can jump
into it very quickly. No need to pore over a huge manual to make sure you
don't screw up the first time through. No need to find out what stats are
important for what. (Another argument against detail) There is a large
population of gamers that want to sit in front of a computer, turn off
their brain, relax and have some fun.

>And then the domino effect took over and here we are now with a forum
>with a ton of ‘new’ people who classify Diablo or Dungeon Siege as a
>RPG. Please note, I am not attempting to ‘point fingers’ per se, but to
>highlight what I believe is the cause that got us where we are today.

Again, your elitist attitude is showing. Games evolve, the culture
evolves. You say that you are not trying to point fingers, but when you
said in the paragraph before that you think that Doom is the cause of the
downfall of computer role playing games[1], the finger pointing is pretty
obvious. As to your comment about "...where we are today." Well, the
market brought us where we are today. Role playing games on a computer
are a niche market, like it or not, when compared to games like Doom 3,
Half Life 2 and Grand Theft Auto.

[1] It couldn't be because Doom was a lot of fun and more interesting
than most crpgs out there, could it??


>With all that said, I feel Obsidian needs to make some bold steps. To
>put the RP back in CRPG. The C and the G I have little doubt are taken
>care of, it’s the RP that concerns me.

The most effective RP, to me, is when you gove the player the choice to
RP if s/he desires. Hide the numbers and let the players play.

<snip>
>a. Adding any micro-management adds nothing but ‘tedium’.

Micro-management is bad. Plain and simple. Any game that has excessive
micro-management will not do very well. (Real time strategy games being
the exception)

>Well, there were varying degree’s of what is being suggested to games
>like the gold box SSI games or BG1 and none the them failed to sell or
>do I recall them being described as ‘tedious’. I agree a balance is
>critical. And I am NOT proposing adding Sims level of character
>management (ie bathroom breaks). But I think most of us can agree the
>lack of almost any kind of serious party management deeply left NWN1
>nerfed on a strategic level at the very least. Sorry if this shatters
>anyone’s idea of what a CRPG should be like, but it’s not the inclusion
>of a insta-rest/heal button or where fatigue is moot. That’s for players
>with ADD that only care about getting l00t and killing things with
>abandon with the least amount of hindrance. Again if a reasonable
>balance is found I deeply believe it will give the game some wonderful
>play.

It is funny that you think so. There are a lot of people who think that
the need to monitor your food/water intake, and the amount of rest you
get is the realm of those with OCD. ANd to say that any CRPG player isn't
obsessed with getting the next most powerful weapon/armoor/spell is a
mighty big delusion.

Like you said, balance is important. However the that *you* seek is not
the balance that others seek.

>b. I don’t want to have to worry about that stuff, I just want to
>fight monsters and get 100t!

>I would suggest you are playing the wrong genre of computer game.

Like above, I suggest that you are deluding yourself when you dismiss
this as a valid reason to play a crpg.

>c. Adding micro-management has nothing to do with role playing.

>I disagree. I do not see RPGs as JUST this or that but as a whole of
>several parts. Yes a deep, involving plot, yes interesting NPCs and NPC
>interaction and yes a tactical element. And to have a tactical element
>you need to worry about fatigue and resting and supplies. Having it all
>so abstract it is a after thought is pointless.

Like someone mentioned under your post on the forums, what you are
talking about here is logistics. Tactics is something completely
different. Tactics is knowing that you are going up against monsters that
are water based nad bringing lots of fire spells. Tactics is knowing that
you are facing enemy spellcasters and coming up with a strategy to negate
their effectiveness. Making sure that you have enough food to eat, water
to drink and rest is logistics.


-
Marcel
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 3:50:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

"Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Xocyll wrote:
>> "Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
>> the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>>
>> >>You post your comments. I reply to them. Welcome to Usenet.
>> >
>> >You did not reply in the same manor however, you put words and
>> >implications in my mouth. As if i told you what a CRPG is. I did not. I
>> >was clearly explaining what my views were and was not holding a gun to
>> >anyways head to agree.
>>
>> Someone who uses "we're" for were and "manor" for manner cannot claim to
>> be explaining anything _clearly_.
>>
>> >Welcome to reality.
>>
>> Welcome to usenet, where people can only read what you write, not what
>> you meant.
>
>a. You seemed to have understood were = we've and so forth. Thus it
>wasnt too difficult apparently for you to grasp what I was speaking of.

The fact that I could decode what you meant to say from what you
actually said does not make what you said qualify as "clearly"
explained.

>On that note, I find it hard to beleive how one with any reasonable
>IQ/logic skills could equate a 'commentary' to a dicatation/factual
>document. Maybe I assume too much from the typical usenet person, such
>as yourself, to make the difference between one speaking opinion and
>speaking fact. My bad if so.
>
>b. As you people love to point out, this is usenet, not my thesis. Get
>over it.

You posted what was little more than a "look at what I did" link to a
web forum. You didn't post your article HERE, nor did you post the
followup article (which you claim explained things better) HERE.

>> Your article speaks of character sheets looking like excel sheets in
>> older crpgs.
>> Yeah they did.
>> Why?
>> Because they were copies of what a pencil and paper D&D player would
>> have on his character sheet.
>> The difference is the P&P player _needed_ those stats for the various
>> dice rolls, while the computer player didn't, since the computer "DM"
>> can handle all of that with no help from the player.
>
>Fair enough, but I dont recall stating we should bring them back in the
>same form, or at all. I was using it as a example that CRPGs in the
>past were more complex. It was a handy example to make a point.

>
>> What exactly does seeing a characters open doors/bend bars percentage
>> add to the game when you can't change that stat?
>
>Some players want that info to make a informed decesion. During several
>situations in a CRPG time maybe a factor and those stats can effect
>what you do with the little time you have to find a soluation.

You really like grasping at straws don't you.

When there is a door you can open (or not) depending on your strength
AND YOUR STRENGTH IS NOT GOING TO BE CHANGING, there is no "informed
decision" to be made.
All you can do is try to open it and succeed or fail depending on the
computer's roll.

The information on your character sheet is totally useless since it has
absolutely no effect on what you can actually do in the game.

That's exactly why that stuff ISN'T there anymore, because it wasn't
used in cRPGs the way it was in P&P D&D.


>> What a surprise that they soon disappeared from VIEW, except in the few
>> games where they were needed.
>
>I do not beleive dumbing down by 'hiding' such info does much either
>except simplify things for the ADD diablo players.

There's nothing "dumbing down" about removing something that IS NOT
USED.

A clear interface is always better than a cluttered one full of
information you won't use.

Those stat bonuses on character sheets are the cRPG equivalent of huge
tail fins on a car - totally unnecessary because they don't do anything
anymore.

Maybe you want a 2005 car with 1956 style tail fins on it, but the vast
majority of people don't.

>> Computer users used to be a fringe element and one who didn't mind
>> memorizing loads of commands and esoteric stuff.
>>
>> Since the majority of computer users are not the nerdish hobbyists we
>> once were, the _excessive_ minutiae of games has also dropped.
>>
>> Why? Because it's not necessary, it never was except to a VERY small
>> minority.
>>
>> The same kind of minority that memorize the details and blueprints of
>> Star Trek or Star Wars ships.
>>
>> Game companies CANNOT survive making games that cater to a tiny
>> minority, not at the prices game cost to make these days.
>
>I do not disgaree on the one hand the old way of doing things wont work
>anymore. OTOH I disagree it should be all chucked out the window. We
>need to find new ways that are both entertaining and informative. This
>all or nothing attitude perplexes me. It seems many people think you
>either have to have a excel spread sheet CRPG or a diablo clone. I
>beleive there is a middle ground to be found.

YOU are the one bringing the all or nothing argument to the table.

Games are still being made that use lots of stats and games are being
made that are more action than rpg.

What you really seem to be saying is that YOUR particular wishes for a
game, interface and huge numbers of irrelevant stats aren't being used
anymore for cRPGs.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
!