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Rhomal's Commentary - Old school in NWN 2 - Part 2

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Anonymous
June 30, 2005 1:52:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

NWN 2 & Old School - Part 2

My thanks to everyone, agreed or not, for at the very least reading
what I had to say and posting feedback. There were many interesting
comments and I would like to take this time to address a few of them.
This before I get into the bulk of the article, which is the 5 points I
feel Obsidian needs to address in NWN 2 vs. NWN 1.

Acrodania: Micro-managing, for the sake of micro-managing is BAD.

I agree 150% and I am NOT advocating putting what I describe below in
for just the effect of putting it in. I believe everything suggested
later on in this commentary has a point and advantages to the game
either in SP or/and MP mode. I believe there should be a balance
between fun and difficulty/management. It seems some of those who
posted feedback to my initial overview seemed to be under the
impression it's either all or nothing. You either has to have some
tactical and management elements or have none. I disagree; I believe
there is a medium to be found and that is what I am advocating.

Full Article:
http://www.nwn2news.net/modules/news/article.php?storyi...
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 7:13:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

> Everything you mention in your article is availble in NWN1 -- they're
called "user-made modules using the Hardcore Ruleset (HCR)".

75% of suggestions/requests for NWN 2 falls under the YCSI (you can
script it) category. Thats not the point though. The point is to have
these features and functions native/default to the game.

Rhomal
www.nwn2news.net
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 8:10:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Rhomal wrote:
> NWN 2 & Old School - Part 2
>
> Full Article:
> http://www.nwn2news.net/modules/news/article.php?storyi...


Everything you mention in your article is availble in NWN1 -- they're
called "user-made modules using the Hardcore Ruleset (HCR)". I,
personally, can't stand them. But, obviously, they're your cup o' tea.

Have fun.
--
Barry Scott Will
Pyric RPG Publications
http://www.pyric.com/
Related resources
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 10:55:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

"Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1120150361.091318.56190
@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> NWN 2 & Old School - Part 2
>Acrodania: Micro-managing, for the sake of micro-managing is BAD.

>I agree 150% and I am NOT advocating putting what I describe below in
>for just the effect of putting it in. I believe everything suggested
>later on in this commentary has a point and advantages to the game
>either in SP or/and MP mode. I believe there should be a balance between
>fun and difficulty/management. It seems some of those who posted
>feedback to my initial overview seemed to be under the impression it’s
>either all or nothing. You either has to have some tactical and
>management elements or have none. I disagree; I believe there is a
>medium to be found and that is what I am advocating.

Unfortunately, that is not the impression that was given by the first
part of your commentary. If you had posted them together, so that what
you would like to have implemented is with how you want it implemented,
the responses you received would have been much, much different.

>WraithCaller: The sad, sad truth is that the gaming community has been
>coddled; We started off with Baldur's Gate I, where a band of Black
>Talons with Frost Arrows could rip your party of battle-hardened
>adventurers apart in mere seconds. We've devolved to a point where WE
>can rip apart a Demon Prince of the 372nd Abyss and be bored out of our
>minds. Slowly but surely, as time went by, a few people who were pissed
>because they couldn't be the Elminsters and Khelbens, whined and
>complained, and so rules got changed, monsters became weaker, and
>treasure became more magical. And as the rules changed, people became
>more and more used to getting maximum levels and epic treasure easier.

It seems to me that you are mixing two things here. How easy the game is
and how powerful your characters in the game are. The two are *not*
dependent on each other. You can have 1st level adventurers and have the
game be a breeze. At the same time, you can have 20th level characters
and have the game be incredibly tough and challenging. Which is better,
which is worse. Personally, I think it is a matter of personal opinion as
to which is better.

There is nothing wrong with challenging games, don't get me wrong.
However the goal is not to have it so difficult that word-of-mouth
decrees that no-one buy it or play it.

>So what happened when the 'oldies' wanted to make games that were more
>challenging like the 'classics'? They were rebuffed by the majority who
>had become comfortable in their easily-gotten power. Its not that the
>Forgotten Realms were overpowered; Its that they got dumbed-down. So
>now, all of a sudden, the creators of the FR setting were forced to come
>up with new and absurd powers that would make their famous NPC creations
>still more powerful than PCs who were now beginning to rival them.
>Elminster went from a humble, 29th level wizard who was a favorite
>of Mystra, to a fighter 1/rogue 2/cleric 3/wizard 24/archmage 5 who is
>suddenly immune to this, that, and the other thing, and can fling around
>arcane fire, because Mystra said so.

Elminster, humble. If by humble you mean that he doesn't blow his own
horn, you are correct. However, if you are talking about him having more
power, then you are barking up the wrong tree. The crpg designers had
absolutely nothing to do with that. Look at the creators of the FR
universe for that. Try Ed Greenwood. He is the one that wrote most of the
novels with Elminster in them, he is the one who, IIRC, helped create the
FR settings, he is the one that gave us more insight into Elminster's
powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Realms

>Unfortunately, once you've made it so that players can become god-like,
>its EXTREMELY hard to break them off. It would take a series of Baldur's
>Gate-esque games that don't hand players greatness on a silver platter
>to get them off their rears and back in gear.

Baldur's Gate like games. Are we talking about the same Baldur's gate
games where, IIRC, you can get +1 swords before you have left the safety
of the starting area?? ALso, and I haven't played the second BG, but
don't you end up as a God at the end of the expansion to BGII??

>I can not agree more and I felt this deserved repeating in its entirety.
>The points brought up here are the exact reasons NWN 1 OC turned out the
>way it did (+2 great swords in random barrels on the street anyone?).

Heh. This is not something that is because of crpgs. This is something
that is from loot tables in D&D.

>And these points are the reason I decided to produce a 2 part commentary
>on this very issue as I see it. It is that important in my view. Unless
>we as players voice this and make it known we are getting tired of the
>Diabloism of most CRPG’s they, the developers, are never going to
>address it. Nor, as pointed out above, is it going to get better unless
>the mindset of CRPG design changes.

I am not sure what you mean by Diabloism. Diablo II has skills that you
could raise. Diablo II has classes that you could pick and customize to
your playing style. Diablo II has challenging levels that could kill you
quite easily yet at the same time gives you powerful characters. How is
that different from what you are looking for??

<snip>

>Now on to the 5 points Neverwinter Nights 2 needs to address to put the
>RP back in CRPG.
>
>1. Better NPC interaction
>
<snip>

Note that the level of interaction that you have with NPC's is not solely
based on the devs. It is also directly related to the processing power of
the computers you are using to run the game. The more processing power
you have, the more options you can give them.

>2. Include the use of supplies
>
>The everlasting torch, the no need for water in desert, the way you get
>a full rest out in the wilderness if you have any gear or not has to go.
>This is the dumbing down effect I spoke of earlier in part one. Here are
>some idea’s I would suggest for adding as default into NWN 2.
>
>a. Torches and other similar gear have a limited life. As I mentioned
>above in the example, there can be some very common situations where
>this can become a critical element and add some drama and excitement.
>Also with the crafting system that is reported to be in NWN 2 I don’t
>see the issue with crafting your own when out in the forest. This way no
>need to be forced to go back to town every time you run out (assuming
>you have said skill to make such). Supplies can also be a way to create
>a money sink at low levels.

I fail to see how running out of food or torches is a source of drama and
excitement, but I suspect that this is one of those personal opinion
things. Personally, if I play an adventurer, I assume that when
travelling, they will scavange or collect food and water as they travel,
thus negating the need for me to worry about it.

As for a money sink. At low levels, the last thing you need is another
money sink. At low levels you should already be short of money. The need
to bring in a money sink is an indication that there is something wrong
with the amount of loot in the game, not a need ofr there to be someplace
to spend it. Torches/water and food are, in this case, not a solution to
the problem, simply a way to manage the problem.

>b. Food/water. Yes, I can hear it now and no I am not implying we get as
>detailed as the Sims. Yet I feel when out outside of civilized areas
>(cities, hamlets, etc) this should come into play on some level. For
>example, like above have ‘iron rations’ which will stack in your
>backpack (like how arrows do now) that are used up every time you make
>camp. If you don’t have said rations you only heal 50% normal to reflect
>your hunger. One could even make this even more abstract and have an
>item called ‘wilderness gear’ that covers everything from bedding to a
>tent to rations. And it is used in the same manor as above.

Why?? If they are an adventurer, I assume that they have the ability to
camp in the wilderness and be quite comfortable. I could see giving them
a penalty if they are in an extreme environment (desert, howling arctic
wilderness), or if they are only first level. But other than those
situations, I expect my adventurers to know how to live off the land.

<snip>

>3. Lower magic and l33t l00t
>
>As mentioned above, the +2 weapons in every 4th barrel, tripping over
>potions in the alleys and every other orc having a +1 shield has to go.
>During classics like Bard’s Tale, BG and the older Ultima’s it took some
>time to get your first magic item. I believe this philosophy needs to
>return to current CRPG’s and specifically NWN 2. I would be very happy
>to get my first +1 weapon around 4th or 5th level.

Like I mentioned above, using Baldur's gate as an example is not
necessarily a good idea. You got +1 swords before you left the tutorial
area, IIRC. There is nothing wrong with giving them magic weapons at the
start. Simply modify the encounters to make it challenging once they have
gotten them. That being said, I tend to agree with you here.

>There are other ways,
>in game design, to gain a sense of accomplishment rather then flood the
>player with uber weapons and armor. IMO the ‘toss everything at them
>with the kitchen sink to pat the player on the back’ is the lazy way to
>design a module/game. How about at the start of the game only one
>blacksmith shop and tanner is available to the player. These places
>offering only basic leather armor types and weapons. After a few
>subplots or missions are complete a new store is opened to the player
>that then allows heavy armor and arms. Or perhaps open up new, better
>NPC’s to join, or better mundane healing supplies. There are many
>interesting ways to give the player a sense of accomplishment other then
>tossing l33t l00t at them like its going out of style IMO.

I agree with you here, and those are good ideas.

>4. Resting/Healing
>
>Aside from what I put above about usable supplies, I feel this subsystem
>in NWN 2 needs a complete overhaul from how it works in NWN 1. Press the
>insta-rest/heal button while I am around to corner to a pack of Worgs
>needs to be addressed as well.

Not ethat, from my experience in NWN, you can't do so. You need to be
quite a significant distance away before the game will allow you to rest.

> Not only does the limit of how close you
>can be to a hostile needs to be increased, but also the resting rules
>needs to follow the spirit of the PnP rules more. I do not believe as
>they are, in the books, resting will work well in a real time CRPG. But
>I feel with some tweaking it could work quite well. My system would be
>with out any ‘wilderness supplies’ you heal 33% (and a chance to fail to
>memorize spells), with supplies 66%, to have a full heal you need an inn
>or such.

Bah. Like I said above, by the time your adventurer is 2nd level, they
should be able to live quite comfortably off the land (barring extremely
hostile environmental conditions)

>I also feel, by default, you should only be able to rest every
>4-6 game hours and in the wilderness you should have the chance of a
>random encounter disturbing your rest/healing. I also firmly am of the
>mindset; the majority of healing supplies on the lower levels should be
>mundane, in keeping with the lower magic scale as discussed above.
>Healing herbs (druid), healer’s kits (those with healing skill), etc.
>should make up the most of the lower level healing items. In my view
>potions shouldn’t be sold and found like soda pop as they are in most
>current D&D games.

Why not?? In a world where magic exists, it is entirely reasonable for
there to be magic-users making a living selling healing potions. What
there needs to be added are low level healing kits of the kind that you
mention. Herbs and poultices that bridge the gap between no healing
potion and healing potion.

<snip>



--
Marcel
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 2:37:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Rhomal wrote:
> The point is to have
> these features and functions native/default to the game.


And our point is the majority of players do not want those features as
the default. I like NWN's gameplay. I'm quite happy with it, and so are
a lot of other people. I don't play games with my limited gaming time so
I can sit and stare at the screen while I wait the prescribed amount of
time between rests. I don't play games so I can be forced to run
back-and-forth to town, buying disposable goods. I don't play games in
order to imitate real life. I play games to have fun, and most of what
you suggest doesn't fall under the heading of "fun".
--
Barry Scott Will
Pyric RPG Publications
http://www.pyric.com/
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 4:30:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

"Barry Scott Will" <nwn_usenet@cavecreations.net> wrote in message
news:N9KdnXvsZ-7DMVnfRVn-tQ@comcast.com...

> And our point is the majority of players do not want those features as
> the default. I like NWN's gameplay. I'm quite happy with it, and so are

His point about finding yourself at a fork in a dungeon, with each path
leading to the exit, is an interesting one... With only one torch in your
inventory and ten minutes (game time) before it burns out, the path you take
could be the difference between life and death. Do you fight through a
horde of monsters (which you might hear from down the passage), or hoof it
up the longer, seemingly safer passageway and risk it being full of traps?
Adding that sort of thing to a game makes for an interesting strategic
situation. It's the sort of thing that many a player in a tabletop game (or
character in a novel or a movie) has been faced with time and time again.

Or... "Do I drop my food and risk starvng, so I can get this sweet platinum
statue and magic sword out of this cursed dungeon? Or do I just take the
sword and forget about ever getting the money that I'd get by pawning the
statue?" Taking the sword could mean the difference between life and death
agaist the big bad dude at the end of the chapter, but selling the statue to
teh right NPC could open up a long, interesting and ultimately beneficial
side-quest that could gain your party some much needed experience before
facing the big bad dude at the end of the chapter. Starving could mean
having your 9th level party getting their snot beaten out of them by kobolds
who would normally not be a problem. Makes for a much more interesting
gaming experience than a simple dungeon hack if implemented properly.
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 9:45:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

> Rhomal wrote:
> > The point is to have
> > these features and functions native/default to the game.

They are "native to the game," as Barry mentioned, by virtue of having
those rules ready to use. They are not the default for the premade
mods.

They are not default, and should not be default, for the mods included
with the game, because not everyone is an experienced player (PnP or
CRPG). Make it default and noobs will declare it a horrible game. Sales
will plummet, the companies involved will lose money, and wash their
hands of it. Way to kill a good game!

Barry Scott Will wrote:
> And our point is the majority of players do not want those features as
> the default. I like NWN's gameplay. I'm quite happy with it, and so are
> a lot of other people.

Ditto for me.

> I don't play games with my limited gaming time so
> I can sit and stare at the screen while I wait the prescribed amount of
> time between rests. I don't play games so I can be forced to run
> back-and-forth to town, buying disposable goods. I don't play games in
> order to imitate real life. I play games to have fun, and most of what
> you suggest doesn't fall under the heading of "fun".

Right on, my bruthuh!

_I_ have a life. A full time job, a family (wife and kids) and a home
to take care of. You can be damn sure that if the default were as you
described, I would not spend another penny on that game.
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 5:31:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Paul Fedorenko wrote:
> His point about finding yourself at a fork in a dungeon, with each path
> leading to the exit, is an interesting one...


*Everything* you describe *can be* implemented in the toolset *right
now*. NWN is such an amazingly flexible platform for building
adventures, I really don't know why some people keep bashing it for "not
having" this or that. The official campaigns are designed for lowest
common denominator because that is what drives overall sales of the
product. And overall sales is what keeps companies like Bioware in
business. BW understands their demographic, and persons with opinions
like Rhomal's are the minority. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Still, people who want to play with logistics (and, again, everything
you describe is just logistics, not tactics or strategy or even
role-playing) can write their own adventures. There are plenty of
modules on NWVault that will send logistical minutiae fiddlers into
paroxysms of joy. I don't play them myself, but have at them...
--
Barry Scott Will
Pyric RPG Publications
http://www.pyric.com/
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 5:38:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

> Paul Fedorenko wrote:
> > His point about finding yourself at a fork in a dungeon, with each path
> > leading to the exit, is an interesting one...

For PnP, sure. Last time we played PnP, we left a bunch of heavy
treasure behind and were still moderately encumbered. We had a couple
encounters on the return trip, dropped what we were carrying, and
picked it back up after. But the DM is able to advance several days by
saying, "two days go by without any incident."

For a CRPG, I can't imagine anything _less_ interesting than watching
an encumbered character walk around.

Barry Scott Will wrote:
> *Everything* you describe *can be* implemented in the toolset *right
> now*. NWN is such an amazingly flexible platform for building
> adventures, I really don't know why some people keep bashing it for "not
> having" this or that.

Not to be mean or anything, but the word "clueless" popped into my
head.

> The official campaigns are designed for lowest
> common denominator because that is what drives overall sales of the
> product. And overall sales is what keeps companies like Bioware in
> business.
> BW understands their demographic, and persons with opinions
> like Rhomal's are the minority. Sorry, but that's the truth.

I suppose that's why Bioware is successful, and, umm... Rhomal has time
on his/her hands.

> Still, people who want to play with logistics (and, again, everything
> you describe is just logistics, not tactics or strategy or even
> role-playing) can write their own adventures. There are plenty of
> modules on NWVault that will send logistical minutiae fiddlers into
> paroxysms of joy. I don't play them myself, but have at them...

Yep, there are mods where every x number of gold pieces encumber you by
a certain amount.
There's a mod that if you walk around town with a weapon equipped, the
guards run up to you and tell you to put away your weapon.

Sands of Fate: Shadows over Heliopolis is a mod I enjoyed - takes place
in a desert, and requires you to carry water, uses it every so often,
and dings you if you're out of water.

Does that add realism? A bit.

Did it enhance role-playing? Um, no, it's a logistic detail. I'm not
that anal when I play CRPGs.

It'd be vital in real-life, important in a PnP game, but in a CRPG -
just reload the last save.

Did it make it more fun to play? No. Nada. Zilch. Not one bit. And
there's your bottom line.
Anonymous
July 3, 2005 3:23:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

alordofchaos@yahoo.com looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>> Paul Fedorenko wrote:
>> > His point about finding yourself at a fork in a dungeon, with each path
>> > leading to the exit, is an interesting one...
>
>For PnP, sure. Last time we played PnP, we left a bunch of heavy
>treasure behind and were still moderately encumbered. We had a couple
>encounters on the return trip, dropped what we were carrying, and
>picked it back up after. But the DM is able to advance several days by
>saying, "two days go by without any incident."
>
>For a CRPG, I can't imagine anything _less_ interesting than watching
>an encumbered character walk around.
>
>Barry Scott Will wrote:
>> *Everything* you describe *can be* implemented in the toolset *right
>> now*. NWN is such an amazingly flexible platform for building
>> adventures, I really don't know why some people keep bashing it for "not
>> having" this or that.
>
>Not to be mean or anything, but the word "clueless" popped into my
>head.

Too much like work. "Wah, we don't want to build our own with all
these rules that only we like, we want Bioware to do it for us and make
everyone play like we want to."

>> The official campaigns are designed for lowest
>> common denominator because that is what drives overall sales of the
>> product. And overall sales is what keeps companies like Bioware in
>> business.
>> BW understands their demographic, and persons with opinions
>> like Rhomal's are the minority. Sorry, but that's the truth.
>
>I suppose that's why Bioware is successful, and, umm... Rhomal has time
>on his/her hands.
>
>> Still, people who want to play with logistics (and, again, everything
>> you describe is just logistics, not tactics or strategy or even
>> role-playing) can write their own adventures. There are plenty of
>> modules on NWVault that will send logistical minutiae fiddlers into
>> paroxysms of joy. I don't play them myself, but have at them...
>
>Yep, there are mods where every x number of gold pieces encumber you by
>a certain amount.
>There's a mod that if you walk around town with a weapon equipped, the
>guards run up to you and tell you to put away your weapon.
>
>Sands of Fate: Shadows over Heliopolis is a mod I enjoyed - takes place
>in a desert, and requires you to carry water, uses it every so often,
>and dings you if you're out of water.
>
>Does that add realism? A bit.
>
>Did it enhance role-playing? Um, no, it's a logistic detail. I'm not
>that anal when I play CRPGs.

I'm reminded of the very first time I ever played D&D, in a highschool
club after school.

They used ever single bit of logistics, to the point where simply
getting to the mission - several days worth of travel - required massive
numbers of dice rolls to see if we had a random encounter.

You are proceeding down the trail, blah blah blah, an hour has passed,
and nothing happens
You are proceeding down the trail and, bing, encounter.
You set up camp for the night...

In the hour+ that game session ran, we never even got half-way to the
mission much less actually started it.

More realistic? Yeah I guess.
More fun? Not unless you're comparing it to watching paint dry.

>It'd be vital in real-life, important in a PnP game, but in a CRPG -
>just reload the last save.
>
>Did it make it more fun to play? No. Nada. Zilch. Not one bit. And
>there's your bottom line.

When I started playing D&D regularly sometime later it was with a group
that used streamlined rules - no discussion of travel time, we just got
there unless we had an encounter.

That was fun.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
July 4, 2005 1:59:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

On 30 Jun 2005 15:13:19 -0700, "Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com> dared
speak in front of ME:

>> Everything you mention in your article is availble in NWN1 -- they're
>called "user-made modules using the Hardcore Ruleset (HCR)".
>
>75% of suggestions/requests for NWN 2 falls under the YCSI (you can
>script it) category. Thats not the point though. The point is to have
>these features and functions native/default to the game.

So long as you can script them back out.
--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com&lt;<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
Anonymous
July 4, 2005 2:38:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Xocyll wrote:
> When I started playing D&D regularly sometime later it was with a group
> that used streamlined rules - no discussion of travel time, we just got
> there unless we had an encounter.
>
> That was fun.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=1...
Anonymous
July 4, 2005 9:40:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

alordofchaos@yahoo.com wrote in news:1120250335.813100.30480
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

> Barry Scott Will wrote:
>> *Everything* you describe *can be* implemented in the toolset *right
>> now*. NWN is such an amazingly flexible platform for building
>> adventures, I really don't know why some people keep bashing it for "not
>> having" this or that.
>
> Not to be mean or anything, but the word "clueless" popped into my
> head.

Funny how the OP isn't actually commenting on any of the responses to his
commentary...

--
Marcel
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 9:58:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Marcel Beaudoin wrote:
> alordofchaos wrote in news:
> > Not to be mean or anything, but the word "clueless" popped into my
> > head.
>
> Funny how the OP isn't actually commenting on any of the responses to his
> commentary...

Might have caught a clue? :-)
Anonymous
July 19, 2005 4:31:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

It's called I have been busy, for a guy who apparently does nothing but
play games. heh :) 

Also I dont see the appeal of 'discussing' (and I use that term loosly)
with a bunch of strangers in the scum of the internet (newsgroups) who
act like a 12 yr old when the teacher isnt looking. I point to the
snyde comments above to make that point.

If you really wish to have a civil, productive discussion on this topic
I would be happy to do so on the official nwn2 forums or nwn 2 news.
Where some level of maturity and civility is required.

Enjoy.
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 10:07:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Rhomal wrote:
> It's called I have been busy, for a guy who apparently does nothing but
> play games. heh :) 

We're all busy. Many of us don't want more "realism" in a CRPG for
just that reason.

> Also I dont see the appeal of 'discussing' (and I use that term loosly)
> with a bunch of strangers in the scum of the internet (newsgroups) who
> act like a 12 yr old when the teacher isnt looking.

Then why do you bother visiting in a newsgroup? Just slumming?

> I point to the snyde comments above to make that point.

Then feel free to go away. Or stay and discuss.
If your feelings are hurt, then I apologize - it was not my intention
to be snide (notice the emoticon at the end). However, you made
somewhat inflammatory statements, then vanished without rebuttal of any
counterpoints.

> If you really wish to have a civil, productive discussion on this topic
> I would be happy to do so on the official nwn2 forums or nwn 2 news.
> Where some level of maturity and civility is required.

This started as a civil discussion. You posted your opinion, Barry
made some points, you replied, "but that's not the point" - but then
failed to elaborate. Then you vanished.

Can you fault me for seeing this behaviour as troll-like, and applying
a small flame just in case?

> Enjoy.

Apparently, not if you have your way.
Anonymous
July 20, 2005 6:36:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Rhomal wrote:
> Also I dont see the appeal of 'discussing' (and I use that term loosly)
> with a bunch of strangers in the scum of the internet (newsgroups) who
> act like a 12 yr old when the teacher isnt looking.

For someone who doesn't like the "12 yr olds" inhabiting the "scum of
the internet" you certainly flame like one.


> If you really wish to have a civil, productive discussion on this topic
> I would be happy to do so on the official nwn2 forums or nwn 2 news.

Ah, so you're just trolling for hits to your Web site.

Have fun playing with yourself, I don't think anyone reading this group
is going to be influenced by your petulance.
--
Barry Scott Will
Pyric RPG Publications
http://www.pyric.com/
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 1:02:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Marcel Beaudoin wrote:
> Funny, I thought my response to you was very civil and could have been
> productive...

All the responses to Rhomal were civil, with mine being the least civil
(I used the word "clueless" once, and jokingly said that he might have
gotten a clue when he disappeared). For a usenet group, that _is_
civil :-)
But apparently, Rhomal is spamming for hits to his website. Wouldn't
be surprised if he moderates it...

Paul Fedorenko wrote:
> His point about finding yourself at a fork in a dungeon, with each path
> leading to the exit, is an interesting one... With only one torch in
> your inventory and ten minutes (game time) before it burns out, the path
> you take could be the difference between life and death.
> Do you fight through a horde of monsters (which you might hear from
> down the passage), or hoof it up the longer, seemingly safer passageway
> and risk it being full of traps?

Or do you just buy plenty of torches beforehand <yawn> or not worry
about it because you are now 2nd level and have found a Necklace of
Glittering, Ring of Jade/Cyan etc., or have several Light cantrips
prepared? Or buy a lantern with several pints of oil (oops, not
available).

Like I said, this adds realism at the expense of fun. Remember, this
is a CRPG, not a table top live game. When I want to worry about
inventory, I'll play pen and paper. When I want a few minutes of
mindless diversion, I play a CRPG. If NWN2 goes the way Rhomal wants,
I'll play X-Box or PS games.

I've played many mods that use expendable torches, require rations,
water, etc. and NONE of these were more _fun)_ because I had to track
inventory.

> Or... "Do I drop my food and risk starvng, so I can get this sweet platinum
> statue and magic sword out of this cursed dungeon? Or do I just take the
> sword and forget about ever getting the money that I'd get by pawning the
> statue?"

Or do I make two trips, or carry both items back to town, moving while
encumberd? Watching an encumbered character move around on screen is
very boring. Watching a character run back and forth to a town on a
screen is very boring.

> Makes for a much more interesting
> gaming experience than a simple dungeon hack if implemented properly.

And there's the rub. A CRPG has limitations. When playing a live
game, you can bury/hide the statue and come back for it later. You can
scrounge for wood to make makeshift torches, breaking wooden chairs,
doors, etc.
You can make a CRPG so "realistic" that it becomes very boring....
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 2:32:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Rhomal wrote:
> NWN 2 & Old School - Part 2
>
> 5 points I feel Obsidian needs to address in NWN 2 vs. NWN 1.
>
> > Acrodania: Micro-managing, for the sake of micro-managing is BAD.
>
> I agree 150% ...
>
> Full Article:
> http://www.nwn2news.net/modules/news/article.php?storyi...

> 1. Better NPC interaction

This is available now, and is a function of how much effort the module
designer puts into the NPC dialogs. In fairness to the designers, this
is a high effort area of design; like writing a choose your own path
book.

> 2. Include the use of supplies

First, NWN1 is fun. It isn't prefect, but additional micromanagement
would be a step in the wrong direction.

Second, NWN1 uses some supplies already; arrows for instance. Arrows
are cheap, light, and fairly small. Isn't it odd that everyone wants a
bow that doesn't need arrows? Doesn't that say something about player
attitudes toward suppies?

> "The everlasting torch"

There are several ways to look at this. The torch in your inventory can
be viewed as an icon for "I have torches". The game would be playable,
but less fun, if I and to gather, carry, and replace torches. I run
around in the dark and rarely use the torch anyway; it does not
significantly affect gameplay. There are plenty of other light sources,
and low light and dark vision are options. You can script torches that
expire, if you want to. You can expire them yourself without even
scripting them; sell them back and rebuy when you feel it is
appropriate.

> "Food/water."

> For example, like above have 'iron rations' which will stack in your backpack (like how arrows do now) that are used up every time you make camp. If you don't have said rations you only heal 50% normal to reflect your hunger.

If this is your cup of tea, you should also have meals at taverns,
hunting and foraging, food in target strongholds and in the loot from
your kills. I prefer the present abstraction where I do not have to
deal with these mundane issues.

> One could even make this even more abstract and have an item called 'wilderness gear' that covers everything from bedding to a tent to rations.

Reducing your carrying capacity and takes up space; that makes sense,
but adds little to game play.
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 5:23:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

"Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1121801467.151188.226580
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> It's called I have been busy, for a guy who apparently does nothing but
> play games. heh :) 
>
> Also I dont see the appeal of 'discussing' (and I use that term loosly)
> with a bunch of strangers in the scum of the internet (newsgroups) who
> act like a 12 yr old when the teacher isnt looking. I point to the
> snyde comments above to make that point.
>
> If you really wish to have a civil, productive discussion on this topic
> I would be happy to do so on the official nwn2 forums or nwn 2 news.
> Where some level of maturity and civility is required.

Funny, I thought my response to you was very civil and could have been
productive...

--
Marcel
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
Anonymous
July 21, 2005 9:21:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

alordofchaos@yahoo.com wrote in
news:1121961743.095142.272990@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

> Marcel Beaudoin wrote:
>> Funny, I thought my response to you was very civil and could have
>> been productive...
>
> All the responses to Rhomal were civil, with mine being the least
> civil (I used the word "clueless" once, and jokingly said that he
> might have gotten a clue when he disappeared). For a usenet group,
> that _is_ civil :-)
> But apparently, Rhomal is spamming for hits to his website. Wouldn't
> be surprised if he moderates it...

I am wondering if he was cobining the posts he got for the first part of
his commentary, which were ...ummm... less than flattering to his
intelligence, and this one.

As for his website, there is also a discussion on the official NWN2
website, where he is also a mod. I have posted my comments to the thread in
there, we shall see what goes on.

--
Marcel
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
July 22, 2005 4:35:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

On 19 Jul 2005 12:31:07 -0700, "Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com> dared
speak in front of ME:

>It's called I have been busy, for a guy who apparently does nothing but
>play games. heh :) 
>
>Also I dont see the appeal of 'discussing' (and I use that term loosly)
>with a bunch of strangers in the scum of the internet (newsgroups) who
>act like a 12 yr old when the teacher isnt looking. I point to the
>snyde comments above to make that point.
>
>If you really wish to have a civil, productive discussion on this topic
>I would be happy to do so on the official nwn2 forums or nwn 2 news.
>Where some level of maturity and civility is required.

You mean where you have moderator privelages. No thanks; pick a
forum where you have no influence and I'll think about it.
--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com&lt;<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 1:15:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Marcel Beaudoin wrote:
> alordofchaos@yahoo.com wrote in
> > All the responses to Rhomal were civil, with mine being the least

> I am wondering if he was cobining the posts he got for the first part of
> his commentary, which were ...ummm... less than flattering to his
> intelligence, and this one.

Could be - I missed his first post. Still, you can't post any opinion
anywhere without _someone_ saying, "You're an idiot"

> As for his website, there is also a discussion on the official NWN2
> website, where he is also a mod. I have posted my comments to the thread in
> there, we shall see what goes on.

I'd be mildly interested to see what happens.
Not interested enough to visit the NWN2 site, yet :-)
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 8:33:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

alordofchaos@yahoo.com wrote in
news:1122048949.443998.4870@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Marcel Beaudoin wrote:
>> alordofchaos@yahoo.com wrote in
>> > All the responses to Rhomal were civil, with mine being the least
>
>> I am wondering if he was cobining the posts he got for the first part
>> of his commentary, which were ...ummm... less than flattering to his
>> intelligence, and this one.
>
> Could be - I missed his first post. Still, you can't post any opinion
> anywhere without _someone_ saying, "You're an idiot"

True, but there are ways to say it that generate discussion, and there are
ways to say it that don't. Unfortunately, Usenet tends to generate the
second. That's where a thick skin comes in handy.

>> As for his website, there is also a discussion on the official NWN2
>> website, where he is also a mod. I have posted my comments to the
>> thread in there, we shall see what goes on.
>
> I'd be mildly interested to see what happens.
> Not interested enough to visit the NWN2 site, yet :-)

It's not bad. There are people on both sides of the idea, and no modding
has happened yet.

--
Marcel
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 2:36:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

As long as people like yourself use tact and mannors I dont see the
point on 'modding'. Something a few people here by their replies
wouldnt beable to handle sadly. Unlike what some people here (who dont
even know me) think, I dont care if ppl disagree with me. Just use some
civility.

Glad you found the thread on the official site interesting.

Rhomal
July 25, 2005 5:30:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

"Kaos" <kaos@invalid.xplornet.com> wrote in message
news:td31e1lhpmak6ichpbs4dfbgjl7hoai6ms@4ax.com...
> On 19 Jul 2005 12:31:07 -0700, "Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com> dared
> speak in front of ME:
>
>>It's called I have been busy, for a guy who apparently does nothing but
>>play games. heh :) 
>>
>>Also I dont see the appeal of 'discussing' (and I use that term loosly)
>>with a bunch of strangers in the scum of the internet (newsgroups) who
>>act like a 12 yr old when the teacher isnt looking. I point to the
>>snyde comments above to make that point.
>>
>>If you really wish to have a civil, productive discussion on this topic
>>I would be happy to do so on the official nwn2 forums or nwn 2 news.
>>Where some level of maturity and civility is required.
>
> You mean where you have moderator privelages. No thanks; pick a
> forum where you have no influence and I'll think about it.

Give it up, Rhomal is a troll, trying to drum up business on his site where
he is the "Web-God" and his opinion reigns supreme.

If he had the talent to use a spelling and grammar checker I might take it
seriously but since he can't, I won't.

Dave
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 11:32:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Rhomal wrote:
> As long as people like yourself use tact and mannors

People like who? You didn't quote any of the post to which you are
responding. Many people will not know to whom you are responding.

> I dont see the
> point on 'modding'. Something a few people here by their replies
> wouldnt beable to handle sadly. Unlike what some people here (who dont
> even know me) think, I dont care if ppl disagree with me. Just use some
> civility.

Fair 'nuff. I think this will boil down to "My opinion is that the
game should be like xxxx" and others will have different opinions as to
how the game should be. Neither opinion is wrong, it's just that
people have different likes and dislikes.

Bioware, and any other software maker, will cater to the "lowest common
denominator" to sell the most games; this is one of the reasons that
Bill Gates is so very rich today.

Bioware is also clever enough to make its toolset very versatile, so
that people who want something different can script it.

I don't object to you expressing your opinion. However, I do object to
what I perceive as an attitude of, "This is what _I_ like, therefore
everyone should have to play this way".

Personally, my preference would be a true, turn-based combat and
movement. On my turn, the game would overlay the graphics with a grid
(blocked squares would be Xed out, squares that slow movement like
water, scree, rubble, etc., would be a different color). I would be
able to select which squares my character or NPCs would move to,
avoiding attacks of opportunity or flanking as I chose, and I would
never get stuck behind some scenery or see an NPC run up next to a
monster to start casting a spell. Then, once all actions were
selected, I would hit "go" and watch the round unfold.

However, I don't see that happening nor do I want to impose what I want
on everyone that plays this game.
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 6:32:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

> People like who?

Does it really matter in the big picture? Naming names will just cause
a flame. I think by looking at the replies in this thread whom those
comments apply too without the need for me to point a finger.

> Fair 'nuff. I think this will boil down to "My opinion is that the
game should be like xxxx" and others will have different opinions as to
how the game should be. Neither opinion is wrong, it's just that
people have different likes and dislikes.

Agreed. My articles were not ment to come off as 'my way is right'. My
posts were no different then the hundreds of posts in the nwn 2 forums
asking or requesting this rule or that function. All I did was compile
all my thoughts in a couple large commentaries. I dont beleive I am a
RPG god, but just one peep who is vocal about his opinions. I wont hold
a gun to your head to agree with me, but allow me to express myself.

FYI I added a 'part 3' to my commentary. You can find it on my site and
the forum on the official nwn 2 site.
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 2:04:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Rhomal wrote:
> Agreed. My articles were not ment to come off as 'my way is right'. My
> posts were no different then the hundreds of posts in the nwn 2 forums
> asking or requesting this rule or that function. All I did was compile
> all my thoughts in a couple large commentaries. I dont beleive I am a
> RPG god, but just one peep who is vocal about his opinions. I wont hold
> a gun to your head to agree with me, but allow me to express myself.

No worries, it was the "this should be the default" for the game-type
statements - I was misunderstanding that to mean "everyone must play
this way."
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 2:09:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.neverwinter-nights (More info?)

Rhomal wrote:
> Agreed. My articles were not ment to come off as 'my way is right'. My
> posts were no different then the hundreds of posts in the nwn 2 forums
> asking or requesting this rule or that function.

Perhaps what you might ask for is to have certain consumables (torches,
rations, water, etc) have a consumption rate (torches last one hour,
rations/water used at one per day, etc) as a default item property.

The default is "ignore the consumption rate" (basically, current
system) in most of the game settings.

Then there is a "maximum reality" setting (one step over the "Hard"
setting) which uses up the consumables at the determined rate when it
is selected as a game option.

A mod builder could set the module to "use this setting" if desired and
not have to scrip the consumables.
!