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"Rhomal" <harlemaximus@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1120150361.091318.56190
@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> NWN 2 & Old School - Part 2
>Acrodania: Micro-managing, for the sake of micro-managing is BAD.
>I agree 150% and I am NOT advocating putting what I describe below in
>for just the effect of putting it in. I believe everything suggested
>later on in this commentary has a point and advantages to the game
>either in SP or/and MP mode. I believe there should be a balance between
>fun and difficulty/management. It seems some of those who posted
>feedback to my initial overview seemed to be under the impression it’s
>either all or nothing. You either has to have some tactical and
>management elements or have none. I disagree; I believe there is a
>medium to be found and that is what I am advocating.
Unfortunately, that is not the impression that was given by the first
part of your commentary. If you had posted them together, so that what
you would like to have implemented is with how you want it implemented,
the responses you received would have been much, much different.
>WraithCaller: The sad, sad truth is that the gaming community has been
>coddled; We started off with Baldur's Gate I, where a band of Black
>Talons with Frost Arrows could rip your party of battle-hardened
>adventurers apart in mere seconds. We've devolved to a point where WE
>can rip apart a Demon Prince of the 372nd Abyss and be bored out of our
>minds. Slowly but surely, as time went by, a few people who were pissed
>because they couldn't be the Elminsters and Khelbens, whined and
>complained, and so rules got changed, monsters became weaker, and
>treasure became more magical. And as the rules changed, people became
>more and more used to getting maximum levels and epic treasure easier.
It seems to me that you are mixing two things here. How easy the game is
and how powerful your characters in the game are. The two are *not*
dependent on each other. You can have 1st level adventurers and have the
game be a breeze. At the same time, you can have 20th level characters
and have the game be incredibly tough and challenging. Which is better,
which is worse. Personally, I think it is a matter of personal opinion as
to which is better.
There is nothing wrong with challenging games, don't get me wrong.
However the goal is not to have it so difficult that word-of-mouth
decrees that no-one buy it or play it.
>So what happened when the 'oldies' wanted to make games that were more
>challenging like the 'classics'? They were rebuffed by the majority who
>had become comfortable in their easily-gotten power. Its not that the
>Forgotten Realms were overpowered; Its that they got dumbed-down. So
>now, all of a sudden, the creators of the FR setting were forced to come
>up with new and absurd powers that would make their famous NPC creations
>still more powerful than PCs who were now beginning to rival them.
>Elminster went from a humble, 29th level wizard who was a favorite
>of Mystra, to a fighter 1/rogue 2/cleric 3/wizard 24/archmage 5 who is
>suddenly immune to this, that, and the other thing, and can fling around
>arcane fire, because Mystra said so.
Elminster, humble. If by humble you mean that he doesn't blow his own
horn, you are correct. However, if you are talking about him having more
power, then you are barking up the wrong tree. The crpg designers had
absolutely nothing to do with that. Look at the creators of the FR
universe for that. Try Ed Greenwood. He is the one that wrote most of the
novels with Elminster in them, he is the one who, IIRC, helped create the
FR settings, he is the one that gave us more insight into Elminster's
powers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Realms
>Unfortunately, once you've made it so that players can become god-like,
>its EXTREMELY hard to break them off. It would take a series of Baldur's
>Gate-esque games that don't hand players greatness on a silver platter
>to get them off their rears and back in gear.
Baldur's Gate like games. Are we talking about the same Baldur's gate
games where, IIRC, you can get +1 swords before you have left the safety
of the starting area?? ALso, and I haven't played the second BG, but
don't you end up as a God at the end of the expansion to BGII??
>I can not agree more and I felt this deserved repeating in its entirety.
>The points brought up here are the exact reasons NWN 1 OC turned out the
>way it did (+2 great swords in random barrels on the street anyone?).
Heh. This is not something that is because of crpgs. This is something
that is from loot tables in D&D.
>And these points are the reason I decided to produce a 2 part commentary
>on this very issue as I see it. It is that important in my view. Unless
>we as players voice this and make it known we are getting tired of the
>Diabloism of most CRPG’s they, the developers, are never going to
>address it. Nor, as pointed out above, is it going to get better unless
>the mindset of CRPG design changes.
I am not sure what you mean by Diabloism. Diablo II has skills that you
could raise. Diablo II has classes that you could pick and customize to
your playing style. Diablo II has challenging levels that could kill you
quite easily yet at the same time gives you powerful characters. How is
that different from what you are looking for??
<snip>
>Now on to the 5 points Neverwinter Nights 2 needs to address to put the
>RP back in CRPG.
>
>1. Better NPC interaction
>
<snip>
Note that the level of interaction that you have with NPC's is not solely
based on the devs. It is also directly related to the processing power of
the computers you are using to run the game. The more processing power
you have, the more options you can give them.
>2. Include the use of supplies
>
>The everlasting torch, the no need for water in desert, the way you get
>a full rest out in the wilderness if you have any gear or not has to go.
>This is the dumbing down effect I spoke of earlier in part one. Here are
>some idea’s I would suggest for adding as default into NWN 2.
>
>a. Torches and other similar gear have a limited life. As I mentioned
>above in the example, there can be some very common situations where
>this can become a critical element and add some drama and excitement.
>Also with the crafting system that is reported to be in NWN 2 I don’t
>see the issue with crafting your own when out in the forest. This way no
>need to be forced to go back to town every time you run out (assuming
>you have said skill to make such). Supplies can also be a way to create
>a money sink at low levels.
I fail to see how running out of food or torches is a source of drama and
excitement, but I suspect that this is one of those personal opinion
things. Personally, if I play an adventurer, I assume that when
travelling, they will scavange or collect food and water as they travel,
thus negating the need for me to worry about it.
As for a money sink. At low levels, the last thing you need is another
money sink. At low levels you should already be short of money. The need
to bring in a money sink is an indication that there is something wrong
with the amount of loot in the game, not a need ofr there to be someplace
to spend it. Torches/water and food are, in this case, not a solution to
the problem, simply a way to manage the problem.
>b. Food/water. Yes, I can hear it now and no I am not implying we get as
>detailed as the Sims. Yet I feel when out outside of civilized areas
>(cities, hamlets, etc) this should come into play on some level. For
>example, like above have ‘iron rations’ which will stack in your
>backpack (like how arrows do now) that are used up every time you make
>camp. If you don’t have said rations you only heal 50% normal to reflect
>your hunger. One could even make this even more abstract and have an
>item called ‘wilderness gear’ that covers everything from bedding to a
>tent to rations. And it is used in the same manor as above.
Why?? If they are an adventurer, I assume that they have the ability to
camp in the wilderness and be quite comfortable. I could see giving them
a penalty if they are in an extreme environment (desert, howling arctic
wilderness), or if they are only first level. But other than those
situations, I expect my adventurers to know how to live off the land.
<snip>
>3. Lower magic and l33t l00t
>
>As mentioned above, the +2 weapons in every 4th barrel, tripping over
>potions in the alleys and every other orc having a +1 shield has to go.
>During classics like Bard’s Tale, BG and the older Ultima’s it took some
>time to get your first magic item. I believe this philosophy needs to
>return to current CRPG’s and specifically NWN 2. I would be very happy
>to get my first +1 weapon around 4th or 5th level.
Like I mentioned above, using Baldur's gate as an example is not
necessarily a good idea. You got +1 swords before you left the tutorial
area, IIRC. There is nothing wrong with giving them magic weapons at the
start. Simply modify the encounters to make it challenging once they have
gotten them. That being said, I tend to agree with you here.
>There are other ways,
>in game design, to gain a sense of accomplishment rather then flood the
>player with uber weapons and armor. IMO the ‘toss everything at them
>with the kitchen sink to pat the player on the back’ is the lazy way to
>design a module/game. How about at the start of the game only one
>blacksmith shop and tanner is available to the player. These places
>offering only basic leather armor types and weapons. After a few
>subplots or missions are complete a new store is opened to the player
>that then allows heavy armor and arms. Or perhaps open up new, better
>NPC’s to join, or better mundane healing supplies. There are many
>interesting ways to give the player a sense of accomplishment other then
>tossing l33t l00t at them like its going out of style IMO.
I agree with you here, and those are good ideas.
>4. Resting/Healing
>
>Aside from what I put above about usable supplies, I feel this subsystem
>in NWN 2 needs a complete overhaul from how it works in NWN 1. Press the
>insta-rest/heal button while I am around to corner to a pack of Worgs
>needs to be addressed as well.
Not ethat, from my experience in NWN, you can't do so. You need to be
quite a significant distance away before the game will allow you to rest.
> Not only does the limit of how close you
>can be to a hostile needs to be increased, but also the resting rules
>needs to follow the spirit of the PnP rules more. I do not believe as
>they are, in the books, resting will work well in a real time CRPG. But
>I feel with some tweaking it could work quite well. My system would be
>with out any ‘wilderness supplies’ you heal 33% (and a chance to fail to
>memorize spells), with supplies 66%, to have a full heal you need an inn
>or such.
Bah. Like I said above, by the time your adventurer is 2nd level, they
should be able to live quite comfortably off the land (barring extremely
hostile environmental conditions)
>I also feel, by default, you should only be able to rest every
>4-6 game hours and in the wilderness you should have the chance of a
>random encounter disturbing your rest/healing. I also firmly am of the
>mindset; the majority of healing supplies on the lower levels should be
>mundane, in keeping with the lower magic scale as discussed above.
>Healing herbs (druid), healer’s kits (those with healing skill), etc.
>should make up the most of the lower level healing items. In my view
>potions shouldn’t be sold and found like soda pop as they are in most
>current D&D games.
Why not?? In a world where magic exists, it is entirely reasonable for
there to be magic-users making a living selling healing potions. What
there needs to be added are low level healing kits of the kind that you
mention. Herbs and poultices that bridge the gap between no healing
potion and healing potion.
<snip>
--
Marcel
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
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