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Does anyone here report clones to the GM's?

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Anonymous
January 15, 2005 9:47:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

.....and if you did would you report these?

Harvey Birdman
Vanth Dreadstar
Michigan J. Frog

Uber Woman (short blond hair...costume of primary colors)

More about : report clones

Anonymous
January 16, 2005 12:06:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Magnus, Robot Fighter." <me@key.com> wrote in message
news:eaeju0hanpqde3k0cm4drkfv5rdn753vbk@4ax.com...
|
|
| ....and if you did would you report these?
|
| Harvey Birdman
| Vanth Dreadstar
| Michigan J. Frog
|
| Uber Woman (short blond hair...costume of primary colors)

Michigan J. Frog is not a Superhero, and is fine to use, a shame the
emote don't allow a high-stepping Rockettes-type dance (along with missing a
silk Top Hat for the character design utility).

The other two represent legal issues, but I don't see them presented in
any other computer game (aside from Harvey Birdman's SWF games on the
CARTOON NETWORK website) previously.
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 5:14:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

Magnus, Robot Fighter. wrote:
> ....and if you did would you report these?

No, since I've never heard of them ;-)

> Harvey Birdman
> Vanth Dreadstar
> Michigan J. Frog
>
> Uber Woman (short blond hair...costume of primary colors)

--
John Parkinson
Related resources
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 5:39:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Magnus, Robot Fighter." <me@key.com> wrote in
news:eaeju0hanpqde3k0cm4drkfv5rdn753vbk@4ax.com:

>
>
> ....and if you did would you report these?
>
> Harvey Birdman
> Vanth Dreadstar
> Michigan J. Frog
>
> Uber Woman (short blond hair...costume of primary colors)

I only report harrasment and very wrong names (p*Ssy L1cker was one).

Allthough there have been chars that looked like they were made on a
black/white monitor (the after-image still hurts the retinas).

The devs play, and if they see something, they stop it pretty quick.

Just ask any of the over 100 GenericHero's that are running around out
there.
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 12:18:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:47:09 -0600, "Magnus, Robot Fighter."
<me@key.com> wrote:

>
>
>....and if you did would you report these?
>
>Harvey Birdman
>Vanth Dreadstar
>Michigan J. Frog
>
>Uber Woman (short blond hair...costume of primary colors)

Yes, I do. Of the first 3, I only know one. The last one is altered
enough to not be a clone.

--
Dark Tyger

Sympathy for the retailer:
http://www.actsofgord.com/index.html
"Door's to your left" -Gord
(I have no association with this site. Just thought it was funny as hell)

Protect free speech: http://stopfcc.com/
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 12:19:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:06:44 -0500, "George Johnson"
<matrix29@voyager.net> wrote:

> Michigan J. Frog is not a Superhero, and is fine to use

Stop. Not being a superhero doesn't make it "fine to use". Trademarked
is trademarked.

--
Dark Tyger

Sympathy for the retailer:
http://www.actsofgord.com/index.html
"Door's to your left" -Gord
(I have no association with this site. Just thought it was funny as hell)

Protect free speech: http://stopfcc.com/
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 12:20:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:33:05 -0500, Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>
wrote:

>Mostly I report Marvel Properties, since Marvel is already suing
>Cryptic/NCSoft over them.

Any new developments on that, by the way?

--
Dark Tyger

Sympathy for the retailer:
http://www.actsofgord.com/index.html
"Door's to your left" -Gord
(I have no association with this site. Just thought it was funny as hell)

Protect free speech: http://stopfcc.com/
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 1:34:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Magnus, Robot Fighter." <me@key.com> wrote in message
news:eaeju0hanpqde3k0cm4drkfv5rdn753vbk@4ax.com...
>
>
> ....and if you did would you report these?
>
> Harvey Birdman
> Vanth Dreadstar
> Michigan J. Frog
>
> Uber Woman (short blond hair...costume of primary colors)

I actually don't know who these are supposed to refer to. Is Vanth
Dreadstar supposed to be Darth Vader? Uber Woman = Wonder Woman? I don't
report clones although I know I'm supposed to. I have a soft spot for
clones because they just make the CoH look a little more familiar to me. I
have reported a couple of indecent names - Rapist Kobe and UrBallsRonFire.
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 1:34:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Andy Pear" <Andy_Pear@Spamhawk.com> wrote in message
news:EZBGd.2279$ef6.1207@trnddc07...
>
> "Magnus, Robot Fighter." <me@key.com> wrote in message
> news:eaeju0hanpqde3k0cm4drkfv5rdn753vbk@4ax.com...
> >
> >
> > ....and if you did would you report these?
> >
> > Harvey Birdman
> > Vanth Dreadstar
> > Michigan J. Frog
> >
> > Uber Woman (short blond hair...costume of primary colors)
>
> I actually don't know who these are supposed to refer to. Is Vanth
> Dreadstar supposed to be Darth Vader? Uber Woman = Wonder Woman? I don't
> report clones although I know I'm supposed to. I have a soft spot for
> clones because they just make the CoH look a little more familiar to me.
I
> have reported a couple of indecent names - Rapist Kobe and UrBallsRonFire.

Vanth Dreadstar was a Marvel Character from the 70's. Has nothing to do
with Darth Vader.

Blonde hair, gotee, energy powers, force sword.


--
John Trauger,
Vorlonagent

"Methane martini.
Shaken, not stirred."

"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common.
Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to
fit their views
....which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that
needs altering."
-The Doctor
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 1:34:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:41:26 -0800, "Vorlonagent" <jt@otfresno.com>
wrote:

>
>"Andy Pear" <Andy_Pear@Spamhawk.com> wrote in message
>news:EZBGd.2279$ef6.1207@trnddc07...
>>
>> "Magnus, Robot Fighter." <me@key.com> wrote in message
>> news:eaeju0hanpqde3k0cm4drkfv5rdn753vbk@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >
>> > ....and if you did would you report these?
>> >
>> > Harvey Birdman
>> > Vanth Dreadstar
>> > Michigan J. Frog
>> >
>> > Uber Woman (short blond hair...costume of primary colors)
>>
>> I actually don't know who these are supposed to refer to. Is Vanth
>> Dreadstar supposed to be Darth Vader? Uber Woman = Wonder Woman? I don't
>> report clones although I know I'm supposed to. I have a soft spot for
>> clones because they just make the CoH look a little more familiar to me.
>I
>> have reported a couple of indecent names - Rapist Kobe and UrBallsRonFire.
>
>Vanth Dreadstar was a Marvel Character from the 70's. Has nothing to do
>with Darth Vader.
>
>Blonde hair, gotee, energy powers, force sword.

Just for the record he's a character owned creation of Jim Starlin's.
So while yes, his use in COH is technically a copyright violation
(unless I got permission from or was Jim), only Jim Starlin could sue.

I get the feeling the GM's I've talked to with the character either
know that....or more likely just don't know who he is.
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 2:23:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote:
> Mostly I report Marvel Properties, since Marvel is already suing
> Cryptic/NCSoft over them.
>
> Yes, people are still being dicks and still making Marvel clones, and
> even if you explain that it's a violation and that cryptic is being
> sued because of that they just don't care.
> They want to play wolverine or whoever so they're going to and they
> don't give a damn who suffers because of it.

I don't think it has jack to do with people actually creating these
clones; it has to do with the ability to create such clones. Even if
there wasn't a single Wulverine or Spinnerman or whatever, Marvel would
have a bug up its corporate ass because someone COULD create these
characters.

It's bogus. But this is America, where anyone can sue anyone for
anything.

--
-= Victory Server =-
-= Shenanigunner: Level 31 Natural Tanker, Fire/SS, M =-
-= Sgt Glory B: Level 16 Tech Blaster, Electric/Energy, F =-
-= Duke Miasma: Level 8 Science Controller, Grav/Force, H =-
-= the Nonpareil: Level 7 Magic Defender, Emp/Rad, F =-
-= Mean Mr Mustard: Level 7 Natural Tanker, Inv/Stone, H =-
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 2:23:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:23:41 -0000, Shenanigunner
<nsp@nitrosyncretic.kom> wrote:

>Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote:
>> Mostly I report Marvel Properties, since Marvel is already suing
>> Cryptic/NCSoft over them.
>>
>> Yes, people are still being dicks and still making Marvel clones, and
>> even if you explain that it's a violation and that cryptic is being
>> sued because of that they just don't care.
>> They want to play wolverine or whoever so they're going to and they
>> don't give a damn who suffers because of it.
>
>I don't think it has jack to do with people actually creating these
>clones; it has to do with the ability to create such clones. Even if
>there wasn't a single Wulverine or Spinnerman or whatever, Marvel would
>have a bug up its corporate ass because someone COULD create these
>characters.
>
>It's bogus. But this is America, where anyone can sue anyone for
>anything.

Marvel *Has* to create these lawsuits. It's the only way they're going
to stay in business. Their movies won't be blockbusters forever, their
loan money is running out...and God knows their comics arn't keeping
them in business.
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 2:24:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Andy Pear" <Andy_Pear@Spamhawk.com> wrote:
> I actually don't know who these are supposed to refer to. Is Vanth
> Dreadstar supposed to be Darth Vader? Uber Woman = Wonder Woman? I
> don't report clones although I know I'm supposed to. I have a soft
> spot for clones because they just make the CoH look a little more
> familiar to me. I have reported a couple of indecent names - Rapist
> Kobe and UrBallsRonFire.

I kind of laughted at You Wrecked'Em.

--
-= Victory Server =-
-= Shenanigunner: Level 31 Natural Tanker, Fire/SS, M =-
-= Sgt Glory B: Level 16 Tech Blaster, Electric/Energy, F =-
-= Duke Miasma: Level 8 Science Controller, Grav/Force, H =-
-= the Nonpareil: Level 7 Magic Defender, Emp/Rad, F =-
-= Mean Mr Mustard: Level 7 Natural Tanker, Inv/Stone, H =-
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 2:24:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:24:31 -0000, Shenanigunner
<nsp@nitrosyncretic.kom> wrote:

>"Andy Pear" <Andy_Pear@Spamhawk.com> wrote:
>> I actually don't know who these are supposed to refer to. Is Vanth
>> Dreadstar supposed to be Darth Vader? Uber Woman = Wonder Woman? I
>> don't report clones although I know I'm supposed to. I have a soft
>> spot for clones because they just make the CoH look a little more
>> familiar to me. I have reported a couple of indecent names - Rapist
>> Kobe and UrBallsRonFire.
>
>I kind of laughted at You Wrecked'Em.

I thought about making a long haired blond guy called You're Thor?
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 6:53:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Dark Tyger" <darktiger@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:nlimu05qcbrs9410gadjjt8kni311ie4vv@4ax.com...
| On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:06:44 -0500, "George Johnson"
| <matrix29@voyager.net> wrote:
|
| > Michigan J. Frog is not a Superhero, and is fine to use
|
| Stop. Not being a superhero doesn't make it "fine to use". Trademarked
| is trademarked.

We're talking about a GAME.
Resell would meet with lawyer-flinging response from Warner
Brothers/AOL/Time/Octopus.

As far as I know, there are no "Superhero" incarnations of "Michigan J.
Frog" and "City of Heroes" has no capacity to duplicate "Michigan J. Frog"
to the level that someone would be confused by this version and WB's.


http://www.tvacres.com/reptiles_cartoon.htm
Michigan J. Frog - Warbling cartoon frog and mascot for the WB (Warner
Brothers) cable network launched January 11, 1995. Michigan J. Frog first
appeared in the 1955 animated cartoon One Froggy Evening about a disheveled
construction worker who found a box in a cornerstone of a 1892 building that
is being demolished. When he opened the box out popped a green frog who
produced a top hat and cane and began to dance and sing "Hello My Baby" at
the top of his lungs. Seeing the potential for an instant fortune, the
construction worker took the frog to the Acme Theatrical Agency but the frog
refused to perform for anyone except the construction worker. Frustrated and
driven nearly mad at his inability to get the frog to sing for anyone else,
the construction worker redeposited the frog back into the cornerstone of a
new building (which was found by another construction worker years later who
also saw dollar signs when the frog began to sing). Other songs in the frogs
repertoire included "I'm Just Wild About Harry," "Come Back to Erin,"
"Please Don't Talk About Me When I'm Gone," and an original tune written by
Chuck Jones and Michael Maltese called "The Michigan Rag" which began
"Everybody's doing the Michigan Rag." Baritone Terrence Monck provided the
frog's voice. Artist Chuck Jones later named the frog Michigan J. Frog. In
1973 film critic Jay Cocks proclaimed that this animated short "comes as
close as any cartoon ever has to perfection.

http://www.toonopedia.com/michigan.htm
MICHIGAN J. FROG
Medium: Theatrical animation
Produced by: Warner Bros.
First Appeared: 1955
Creators: Chuck Jones and Michael Maltese

Not many characters achieve lasting fame just from having appeared in a
single six-minute cartoon. In fact, Michigan J. Frog may be the only one.

The Frog was not a star when Warner Bros.' One Froggy Evening (which was
written by Michael Maltese and directed by Chuck Jones) premiered on
December 31, 1955. In fact, that was the point - his spectacular song and
dance routines were seen by only one person.

And nobody expected him to become a star, either. Even his name was given to
him only in retrospect - in the cartoon itself, neither he nor his tormented
victim had names. His last name is from his body type, his first from "The
Michigan Rag" (the one song that Maltese wrote especially for him), and his
middle from the fact that unless evidence exists to the contrary, all
cartoon characters are considered to have J. for a middle initial.

What's more, nobody even knows who did his voice - and no, despite the
"certain knowledge" of many cartoon buffs, it was not Thurl Ravenscroft
(Tony the Tiger, "You're a Mean One, Mr. Grinch"). Jones cast the part
simply by asking Warner Bros. for a baritone, and they responded by sending
over one of many singers working for them. By the time anyone realized
people would someday be interested in credits for this sort of thing,
everyone had forgotten the man's name.

Despite the instant popularity and definite appeal of the character, Warner
Bros. made no additional cartoons with him. What would be the point? His
story was told, and it required no sequels. But - no matter how little he
needed one, any character that well remembered is bound to be revived by a
new generation of cartoonists. Michigan appeared in two 1990 episodes of
Tiny Toon Adventures - Turtle Hurdle and Class Cut-up. In 1995, Jones
himself revived him in Another Froggy Evening. His first appearance remains
his best - but Class Cut-up, where he played Hamton Pig's dissection frog,
was a clever use of the character.

In more recent years, a look-alike has masqueraded as Michigan J. Frog,
acting as host of the Warner television network. A look-alike also appeared
in an episode of The Simpsons, hosting a tribute to Krusty the Clown. But of
course, that can't be the real Michigan, who does not perform before an
audience.

Michigan J. Frog has never appeared in comic books or on lunch boxes (tho he
did grace the cover of Leon Redbone's first album, which came out in 1975).
Despite modern attempts, there is really only the one cartoon. It says
everything about the character that needs to be said.
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 11:53:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 03:53:59 -0500, "George Johnson"
<matrix29@voyager.net> wrote:

>"Dark Tyger" <darktiger@somewhere.net> wrote in message
>news:nlimu05qcbrs9410gadjjt8kni311ie4vv@4ax.com...
>| On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:06:44 -0500, "George Johnson"
>| <matrix29@voyager.net> wrote:
>|
>| > Michigan J. Frog is not a Superhero, and is fine to use
>|
>| Stop. Not being a superhero doesn't make it "fine to use". Trademarked
>| is trademarked.
>
> We're talking about a GAME.

And? Trademark violations are trademark violations.

--
Dark Tyger

Sympathy for the retailer:
http://www.actsofgord.com/index.html
"Door's to your left" -Gord
(I have no association with this site. Just thought it was funny as hell)

Protect free speech: http://stopfcc.com/
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 9:08:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Dark Tyger" <darktiger@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:fbrnu0pi6undubqfnl1he20atgb5pkhupv@4ax.com...
| On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 03:53:59 -0500, "George Johnson"
| <matrix29@voyager.net> wrote:
|
| >"Dark Tyger" <darktiger@somewhere.net> wrote in message
| >news:nlimu05qcbrs9410gadjjt8kni311ie4vv@4ax.com...
| >| On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:06:44 -0500, "George Johnson"
| >| <matrix29@voyager.net> wrote:
| >|
| >| > Michigan J. Frog is not a Superhero, and is fine to use
| >|
| >| Stop. Not being a superhero doesn't make it "fine to use". Trademarked
| >| is trademarked.
| >
| > We're talking about a GAME.
|
| And? Trademark violations are trademark violations.

Nope.

http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/business/0,39023166,202785...
Beatles group sues Apple over trademark


Now if the user decided to try to SELL this "Michigan J. Frog" character
there would be an issue.
At the moment, it honestly is not an issue.
Granted a lawyer could cause annoyance over it, but since "Michigan J.
Frog" has never been a superhero there is no room for distinction. The
troubling issue would be the UNIQUENESS of the name itself (versus a
character named "Scrubbing Bubbles" or "Billy Bass" whom have more generic
names).
Since at the moment the player is not attempting to SELL the character,
there is no real room for dispute unless the player decides to act in a
defamitory manner to Time/Warner/HugeConMegloCorps/AOL animated product
"Michigan J. Frog".




http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/crashcourse/rights/
Crash course on trademarks: The protection offered by trademark law

Contrary to popular belief, a trademark does not give its holder a monopoly
on the word, phrase, shape or color as such. Trademark rights are typically
granted on the basis of a registration. Part of the registration is an
indication of the goods and services that the trademark should protect. Only
commercial use of the trademark for those classes of goods and services can
be restricted by the trademark holder. Non-commercial use cannot be
prevented, except if that use harms the distinctiveness of the trademark.


What uses can be trademark infringement

A trademark is an exclusive right, which means that it gives its holder the
right to exclude (stop) others from using the mark. As the main aim of
trademark law is to prevent unfair competition, the exclusive right is
restricted to use in commerce. There are several different situations in
which somebody else might be infringing on a trademark. He could be using it
to sell the same types of products or services, or to sell slightly
different products, or for totally different products, or maybe for a
totally different reason.



Use for similar goods or services

The most common type of trademark infringement probably occurs when somebody
else sells a product or service under a name that in some way resembles a
registered trademark, and the products in question are the same or similar
to the registered products. For example, somebody might be publishing a
website under the same name as a trademarked name of a journal.

The main criterion here is whether the name of the product is confusingly
similar to the trademark. If they are, then potential buyers might
accidentally buy the wrong product, and that is exactly the kind of
situation that trademark law was designed to prevent. Similarity in itself
is not sufficient, the trademark holder must prove that there is a chance of
confusion.

Determining whether two things are confusingly similar is very complex. The
label of the product in question must be compared to the trademark as a
whole. Even if certain elements do correspond (for example the same type of
graphical symbols are used, and the various elements are arranged in a
similar way) the total impression might still be different. And it is the
total impression that is important, because consumers will rarely pay
attention to details when making a selection of a product.

The starting point should be the average, informed, cautious and attentive
ordinary consumer who is confronted with the allegedly infringing product. A
comparison is then made of the degree of visible, auditive and comprehensive
similarity between the label on the product and the trademark as registered.
The appearance of the trademark on the original product is irrelevant. The
exclusive rights are granted based on the trademark, and so it is the
trademark itself that must be compared against the allegedly infringing
product.

Two products are considered similar if the public would be of the opinion
that the services or goods in question are of the same company or of
economically linked companies. So, for example the public would not normally
expect a company that makes photocameras to also sell potatoes. A potato
distributor could therefore use the trademark Kodak for his potatoes,
without the photo company being able to do anything about it. Of course, the
more famous a trademark becomes, the bigger the chance that the public's
opinion would change. The trademark Coca Cola for example appears on many
different products, ranging from T-shirts to duvets. Given this information,
the public would easily think that somebody selling pillows with the Coca
Cola trademark on it had something to do with the Coca Cola company. Based
on this, the trademark holder can act against such use of his trademark.

Another important question is how distinctive the mark is. The more
distinctive a trademark is, the bigger the chance that confusion can occur.



Use for different goods or services

The registration of a trademark includes an indication of the goods or
services which it is intended to protect. This means that, in principle,
others are free to use the trademark for other goods or services. However,
there are some exceptions. As explained earlier, a trademark always runs the
risk that it loses its distinctive character, which could mean that the
trademark at some point is annulled.

It is also an infringement if the use of the mark is such that it harms the
trademark holder in an unfair way. The reputation or image that he has built
could suffer from somebody elses use of the mark. For example, the Dutch
holder of the trademark King (who makes peppermints) was able to
successfully stop someone else from selling condoms under the same
trademark.
[more at website]
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 9:08:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:08:02 -0500, "George Johnson"
<matrix29@voyager.net> wrote:

> Now if the user decided to try to SELL this "Michigan J. Frog" character
>there would be an issue.
> At the moment, it honestly is not an issue.

The player isn't the one we should be looking at. CRYPTIC is SELLING
the player the ability to use and violate the trademark.

--
Dark Tyger

Sympathy for the retailer:
http://www.actsofgord.com/index.html
"Door's to your left" -Gord
(I have no association with this site. Just thought it was funny as hell)

Protect free speech: http://stopfcc.com/
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 12:09:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

>> Now if the user decided to try to SELL this "Michigan J. Frog"
character
>> there would be an issue.
>> At the moment, it honestly is not an issue.
>
> The player isn't the one we should be looking at. CRYPTIC is SELLING
> the player the ability to use and violate the trademark.

Not really.
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 1:34:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On 17 Jan 2005 21:09:06 -0800, "The Black Guardian" <blakgard@aol.com>
wrote:

>>> Now if the user decided to try to SELL this "Michigan J. Frog"
>character
>>> there would be an issue.
>>> At the moment, it honestly is not an issue.
>>
>> The player isn't the one we should be looking at. CRYPTIC is SELLING
>> the player the ability to use and violate the trademark.
>
>Not really.

If they didn't enforce the rules against copycat names and/or
characters, yes really.

--
Dark Tyger

Sympathy for the retailer:
http://www.actsofgord.com/index.html
"Door's to your left" -Gord
(I have no association with this site. Just thought it was funny as hell)

Protect free speech: http://stopfcc.com/
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 3:10:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

>>>> Now if the user decided to try to SELL this "Michigan J. Frog"
>>>> character there would be an issue.
>>>> At the moment, it honestly is not an issue.
>>>
>>> The player isn't the one we should be looking at. CRYPTIC is
SELLING
>>> the player the ability to use and violate the trademark.
>>
>> Not really.
>
> If they didn't enforce the rules against copycat names and/or
> characters, yes really.

There's not even any guarantee that trademark/copyright protection
extends that far. But I guess we'll see.
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 1:24:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Vorlonagent" <jt@otfresno.com> wrote:
> Say I build a scrapper that 100% resembes Wolverine. Even call him
> "Wolverine".

You are immediately in violation of trademark and copyright. Period. This
is inarguable. If my word as editor and publisher isn't good enough, ask
a patent attorney.

One of the most commonly misunderstood aspects of patent, trademark, and
copyright is that it is NO LESS a violation to make a copy for yourself
than it is to make one for sale or other financial gain.Selling a
patented/copyrighted/trademarked item only compounds the legal breach of
making it in the first place.

None of which makes Marvel's suit any less idiotic, in this instance, as
long as the GMs maintain vigilance to keep the number of infringing
clones to the reasonable minimum - none at all for more than few levels.

--
-= Victory Server =-
-= Shenanigunner: Level 31 Natural Tanker, Fire/SS, M =-
-= Sgt Glory B: Level 16 Tech Blaster, Electric/Energy, F =-
-= Duke Miasma: Level 8 Science Controller, Grav/Force, H =-
-= the Nonpareil: Level 7 Magic Defender, Emp/Rad, F =-
-= Mean Mr Mustard: Level 7 Natural Tanker, Inv/Stone, H =-
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 1:24:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Shenanigunner" <nsp@nitrosyncretic.kom> wrote in message
news:Xns95E3922E93050nitropressatnitrosyn@216.168.3.44...
> "Vorlonagent" <jt@otfresno.com> wrote:
> > Say I build a scrapper that 100% resembes Wolverine. Even call him
> > "Wolverine".
>
> You are immediately in violation of trademark and copyright. Period. This
> is inarguable. If my word as editor and publisher isn't good enough, ask
> a patent attorney.

Wow.

You don't want any time to think that over? :) 


> One of the most commonly misunderstood aspects of patent, trademark, and
> copyright is that it is NO LESS a violation to make a copy for yourself
> than it is to make one for sale or other financial gain.Selling a
> patented/copyrighted/trademarked item only compounds the legal breach of
> making it in the first place.

Interesting.


> None of which makes Marvel's suit any less idiotic, in this instance, as
> long as the GMs maintain vigilance to keep the number of infringing
> clones to the reasonable minimum - none at all for more than few levels.

Yes. Suing because of something that *might* happen.



--
John Trauger,
Vorlonagent

"Methane martini.
Shaken, not stirred."

"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common.
Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to
fit their views
....which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that
needs altering."
-The Doctor
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 4:25:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Vorlonagent" <jt@otfresno.com> wrote:
>> One of the most commonly misunderstood aspects of patent, trademark,
>> and copyright is that it is NO LESS a violation to make a copy for
>> yourself than it is to make one for sale or other financial
>> gain.Selling a patented/copyrighted/trademarked item only compounds
>> the legal breach of making it in the first place.

> Interesting.

And a complete mystery to most netizens who just don't understand (and
can't seem to be made to understand) why copying books, music, movies, etc.
all over the place pisses off the owners and their agents. And is illegal.
And is wrong on a number of levels. And is the basis for some of the most
specious and convoluted rationalizations since I dunno when.

--
-= Victory Server =-
-= Shenanigunner: Level 31 Natural Tanker, Fire/SS, M =-
-= Sgt Glory B: Level 16 Tech Blaster, Electric/Energy, F =-
-= Duke Miasma: Level 8 Science Controller, Grav/Force, H =-
-= the Nonpareil: Level 7 Magic Defender, Emp/Rad, F =-
-= Mean Mr Mustard: Level 7 Natural Tanker, Inv/Stone, H =-
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 6:22:15 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:25:35 -0000, Shenanigunner
<nsp@nitrosyncretic.kom> wrote:

> And a complete mystery to most netizens who just don't understand
> (and can't seem to be made to understand) why copying books, music,
> movies, etc. all over the place pisses off the owners and their
> agents. And is illegal. And is wrong on a number of levels. And is
> the basis for some of the most specious and convoluted
> rationalizations since I dunno when.

Technically, copying books, music, movies, etc. is perfectly legal
under certain conditions (known as "fair use"). If you tape a show
off TV for your own personal use, this is "time-shifting" and was held
to be a legal use in Sony vs Betamax. Likewise, if you make a backup
copy of something for your own use, and destroy or transfer the backup
copy at the same time you transfer the original copy to someone else,
for instance; this is "space-shifting" and was held to be a legitimate
use in the RIAA vs Diamond case.

--
Chris Meadows aka | Homepage: http://www.terrania.us
Robotech_Master |
robotech@eyrie.org | Earn a free iPod and a free monitor or TV set!
| http://www.terrania.us/conga.html
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 6:39:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

Robotech_Master <robotech@eyrie.org> wrote:
> Technically, copying books, music, movies, etc. is perfectly legal
> under certain conditions (known as "fair use").

Look up the conditions some time. They're not nearly as sweeping as those
to whom "RIAA" is a four-letter word would claim. :) 

--
-= Victory Server =-
-= Shenanigunner: Level 31 Natural Tanker, Fire/SS, M =-
-= Sgt Glory B: Level 16 Tech Blaster, Electric/Energy, F =-
-= Duke Miasma: Level 8 Science Controller, Grav/Force, H =-
-= the Nonpareil: Level 7 Magic Defender, Emp/Rad, F =-
-= Mean Mr Mustard: Level 7 Natural Tanker, Inv/Stone, H =-
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 7:43:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:39:31 -0000, Shenanigunner
<nsp@nitrosyncretic.kom> wrote:

> Robotech_Master <robotech@eyrie.org> wrote:
> > Technically, copying books, music, movies, etc. is perfectly legal
> > under certain conditions (known as "fair use").

> Look up the conditions some time. They're not nearly as sweeping as
> those to whom "RIAA" is a four-letter word would claim. :) 

Uhm, yes, the part of my message that you snipped _cited_ the
conditions that apply to the sorts of fair uses most people are likely
to make. Others include excerpted use in review or criticism, parody
or satire, education, and so on, but are less applicable to the sorts
of things most people are likely to want to do.

--
Chris Meadows aka | Homepage: http://www.terrania.us
Robotech_Master |
robotech@eyrie.org | Earn a free iPod and a free monitor or TV set!
| http://www.terrania.us/conga.html
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 11:42:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:20:31 -0500, Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>
wrote:

>The entire bit about Statesman being a Captain America Clone with part
>of Magneto's helmet tacked on seems utterly stupid to me.
>
>But the rest of it is petty true; You can make clones that are good
>enough that everyone recognizes who it's supposed to be.

Oh, yeah, they're right that you -can- do it. However, I don't think
that having the ability to combine literally millions of combinations
into characters that resemble theirs makes it a trademark violation. I
also think they're totally full of it when they say that the character
creator actually -encourages- making clones.

--
Dark Tyger

Sympathy for the retailer:
http://www.actsofgord.com/index.html
"Door's to your left" -Gord
(I have no association with this site. Just thought it was funny as hell)

Protect free speech: http://stopfcc.com/
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 8:57:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

Dark Tyger <darktiger@somewhere.net> looked up from reading the entrails
of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:20:31 -0500, Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>
>wrote:
>
>>The entire bit about Statesman being a Captain America Clone with part
>>of Magneto's helmet tacked on seems utterly stupid to me.
>>
>>But the rest of it is petty true; You can make clones that are good
>>enough that everyone recognizes who it's supposed to be.
>
>Oh, yeah, they're right that you -can- do it. However, I don't think
>that having the ability to combine literally millions of combinations
>into characters that resemble theirs makes it a trademark violation. I
>also think they're totally full of it when they say that the character
>creator actually -encourages- making clones.

I think they're a bit off base there as well, but the way the origins
etc are down does provide a slight bit of impetus to the already
imaginationless teen set.

Describe The Hulk.
Huge, green, super strong, invulnerable, can leap huge distances,
created by a lab "accident".

Now the editor:
Huge, check,
Science origin, check,
super strength, check
invincibility, check
green skin, check.
and at level 6, super jump, check.

The attributes of the Hulk map exactly to things in the game, or at
least, appear to.

Ok, the invincibility power set is nothing like what the Hulk has, and
the Super Strength certainly isn't, but the names of them are.

If the origin names were different and/or the power names different it
wouldn't be quite the same issue.

Science+Resistant+Strongman doesn't imply the Hulk the way
Science+Invincible+Super Strength does, and that is what Marvel seems to
be saying in their overly convoluted lawyerese.

But Science+Super Strength+Invincible+Huge Body is going to imply the
Hulk to a lot of 18- people. You can even add super jump later.

Ditto with Mutation+Claws+Regeneration: to some people this is always
going to mean Wolverine, so they make a wolverine costume.

People made spiderman clones too, but his powers don't exist in the
game/editor, so Marvel isn't making a fuss over that.
Same with various other clones whose origin/powerset doesn't line up
neatly to the editor definitions.

It's almost certainly too late for Cryptic to change the names of
origins/powersets without essentially "proving" that Marvel was right.

Marvel isn't really saying that people can make clones, they're saying
people ARE making clones and that the editor makes it easy for them to
do so, and the definitions in the editor guide some people into making
certain Marvel Clones.
That's true, if you look at it the right way.

There were clones right from Day 1 and probably clones in beta too, and
a large number of those clones are Hulk and Wolverine knockoffs.

Now the fact that the EULA prohibits people from making clones and that
Cryptic nails anyone caught with a clone should be more than enough
evidence that Cryptic didn't intend people to make clones of Marvel
guys.

Unfortunately, Marvel has a point about the names of origins and power
sets - they do point at a couple of Marvel properties to people who are
either unable to come up with their own idea and/or are huge fans of
those Marvel properties - like The Hulk and Wolverine.

And that's why you should report every damn Marvel clone you see,
because Marvel does have a point, and the courts may take that view.


Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 9:13:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

In article <1pnvu0pl2gg7ccempm3namitkkhpees0rt@4ax.com>, Dark Tyger wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:20:31 -0500, Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>
> wrote:
>
>>The entire bit about Statesman being a Captain America Clone with part
>>of Magneto's helmet tacked on seems utterly stupid to me.
>>
>>But the rest of it is petty true; You can make clones that are good
>>enough that everyone recognizes who it's supposed to be.
>
> Oh, yeah, they're right that you -can- do it. However, I don't
> think that having the ability to combine literally millions of
> combinations into characters that resemble theirs makes it a
> trademark violation. I also think they're totally full of it
> when they say that the character creator actually -encourages-
> making clones.

In Marvel's minds, it's must be incomprehensible that you'd want
to play anything other than a wholey owned by Marvel product.

Even if you were to grant their claim that you are encouraged to
copy Wolverine and Hulk, they still need to come up with some
explanation for all the other costume options that needlessly
complicate making a Wolverine clone. Why would Cryptic even
include them if they want you to be Wolverine?

--
Neil Cerutti
There are two ways to argue with a woman, and neither of them
work. --Carlos Boozer
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 11:09:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:25:35 -0000, Shenanigunner <nsp@nitrosyncretic.kom>
wrote:

> And a complete mystery to most netizens who just don't understand (and
> can't seem to be made to understand) why copying books, music, movies,
> etc.
> all over the place pisses off the owners and their agents. And is
> illegal.
> And is wrong on a number of levels. And is the basis for some of the most
> specious and convoluted rationalizations since I dunno when.

In American, I would call it "the greenback effect". If you don't see the
cash, it isn't really real. You have the same thing with farmers who
can't understand why they should pay tax for drinking the milk and eating
the meat of their own cows. Notwithstanding that other people who work in
order to drink milk or eat meat must pay tax before they ever get to buy
the stuff. Recently a bunch of wintersports stars here in Norway got some
leisure property at a discount after having shown up in adverts. Says one
of them: "Anyone can get things cheaper if they haggle." Trust me, human
nature is the same everywhere and in all walks of life.

--
"When someone starts bragging about how much debt they have, it's not a
good sign." -G
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 5:45:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in
news:j6c0v09qd67u0hh3tmos41fosa9mdoaato@4ax.com:

> Dark Tyger <darktiger@somewhere.net> looked up from reading the
> entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the
> signs say:
>
>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:20:31 -0500, Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>The entire bit about Statesman being a Captain America Clone with
>>>part of Magneto's helmet tacked on seems utterly stupid to me.
>>>
>>>But the rest of it is petty true; You can make clones that are
>>>good enough that everyone recognizes who it's supposed to be.
>>
>>Oh, yeah, they're right that you -can- do it. However, I don't
>>think that having the ability to combine literally millions of
>>combinations into characters that resemble theirs makes it a
>>trademark violation. I also think they're totally full of it when
>>they say that the character creator actually -encourages- making
>>clones.
>
> I think they're a bit off base there as well, but the way the
> origins etc are down does provide a slight bit of impetus to the
> already imaginationless teen set.
>
> Describe The Hulk.
> Huge, green, super strong, invulnerable, can leap huge distances,
> created by a lab "accident".
>
> Now the editor:
> Huge, check,
> Science origin, check,
> super strength, check
> invincibility, check
> green skin, check.
> and at level 6, super jump, check.

Uh-uh. Combat Jumping at 6, Super Jump at 14

>
> The attributes of the Hulk map exactly to things in the game, or
> at least, appear to.
>
> Ok, the invincibility power set is nothing like what the Hulk has,
> and the Super Strength certainly isn't, but the names of them are.

Actually, from what I've seen of superstrength and invulnerability,
they don't come close to what Marvel's Hulk has inherent.

>
> If the origin names were different and/or the power names
> different it wouldn't be quite the same issue.
>
> Science+Resistant+Strongman doesn't imply the Hulk the way
> Science+Invincible+Super Strength does, and that is what Marvel
> seems to be saying in their overly convoluted lawyerese.

Of the three that are mentioned in the original complaint (Hulk,
Wolverine and Captain America) Marvel purports that Cryptic and NC
Soft are forcing people to make these chararcters.

>
> But Science+Super Strength+Invincible+Huge Body is going to imply
> the Hulk to a lot of 18- people. You can even add super jump
> later.
>
> Ditto with Mutation+Claws+Regeneration: to some people this is
> always going to mean Wolverine, so they make a wolverine costume.
>
> People made spiderman clones too, but his powers don't exist in
> the game/editor, so Marvel isn't making a fuss over that.
> Same with various other clones whose origin/powerset doesn't line
> up neatly to the editor definitions.
>
> It's almost certainly too late for Cryptic to change the names of
> origins/powersets without essentially "proving" that Marvel was
> right.

And in the request for denial that NC Soft and Cryptic put to the
judge, it states that bey design you can't use the names Wolverine,
Hulkm The Hulk, etc., thus proving that NC Soft and Cryptic are
watching for attempts at trademark violations.

>
> Marvel isn't really saying that people can make clones, they're
> saying people ARE making clones and that the editor makes it easy
> for them to do so, and the definitions in the editor guide some
> people into making certain Marvel Clones.
> That's true, if you look at it the right way.

Actually, Marvel is saying that the design engine is wholly geared
for making clones, and no other type of hero.

>
> There were clones right from Day 1 and probably clones in beta
> too, and a large number of those clones are Hulk and Wolverine
> knockoffs.

And there is also a play on it in the Prima guide.

>
> Now the fact that the EULA prohibits people from making clones and
> that Cryptic nails anyone caught with a clone should be more than
> enough evidence that Cryptic didn't intend people to make clones
> of Marvel guys.

Which is also stated in NC Softs and Cryptics response. Something
along the lines of Marvel also outlawing #2 pencils, modeling clay,
and others.

>
> Unfortunately, Marvel has a point about the names of origins and
> power sets - they do point at a couple of Marvel properties to
> people who are either unable to come up with their own idea and/or
> are huge fans of those Marvel properties - like The Hulk and
> Wolverine.

And what about DC Comics? Are they now part of Marvel? As it has been
a while since I followed the industry. But if I remeber right, Green
Lantern is a DC Comic item, with Superman and Batman and others.

>
> And that's why you should report every damn Marvel clone you see,
> because Marvel does have a point, and the courts may take that
> view.

And what of all these Anime clones? 8th Man and others that I have
seen? The general populace should not have to police the City of
paragon, as NC Soft and Cryptic are doing the policing themselves.

>
>
> Xocyll

As was stated lately in the 'official' forums:

"Isn't that horse dead?"

You have to wonder though, if SOE is going after people that name
their chars after Marvel stuff. Could you see a blaster carrying guy
in SWG being called Deadeye?

What about WoW? The whole of 'Middle-Earth' is open to those players
(AFAIK, since I don't play that and have not looked at the char
creator in it.)
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 4:36:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

In article <j6c0v09qd67u0hh3tmos41fosa9mdoaato@4ax.com>, Xocyll wrote:
> Dark Tyger <darktiger@somewhere.net> looked up from reading the entrails
> of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>
>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:20:31 -0500, Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>The entire bit about Statesman being a Captain America Clone with part
>>>of Magneto's helmet tacked on seems utterly stupid to me.
>>>
>>>But the rest of it is petty true; You can make clones that are good
>>>enough that everyone recognizes who it's supposed to be.
>>
>>Oh, yeah, they're right that you -can- do it. However, I don't think
>>that having the ability to combine literally millions of combinations
>>into characters that resemble theirs makes it a trademark violation. I
>>also think they're totally full of it when they say that the character
>>creator actually -encourages- making clones.
>
> I think they're a bit off base there as well, but the way the origins
> etc are down does provide a slight bit of impetus to the already
> imaginationless teen set.
>
> Describe The Hulk.
> Huge, green, super strong, invulnerable, can leap huge
> distances, created by a lab "accident".
>
> Now the editor:
> Huge, check,
> Science origin, check,
> super strength, check
> invincibility, check
> green skin, check.
> and at level 6, super jump, check.
>
> The attributes of the Hulk map exactly to things in the game,
> or at least, appear to.

That's the *beauty* of the character creation process. The
flexibility. But for every Marvel character you can make a good
approximation of, there's pretty much one for which you can't
really come close. Marvel, and cloners, have to cherry pick.

> Ok, the invincibility power set is nothing like what the Hulk
> has, and the Super Strength certainly isn't, but the names of
> them are.
>
> If the origin names were different and/or the power names
> different it wouldn't be quite the same issue.
>
> Science+Resistant+Strongman doesn't imply the Hulk the way
> Science+Invincible+Super Strength does, and that is what Marvel seems to
> be saying in their overly convoluted lawyerese.

I doubt different names would change anything. Resistant
Strongman is just as good an approximation of the Hulk as Super
Strength with Invulnerability.

> But Science+Super Strength+Invincible+Huge Body is going to
> imply the Hulk to a lot of 18- people. You can even add super
> jump later.
>
> Ditto with Mutation+Claws+Regeneration: to some people this is
> always going to mean Wolverine, so they make a wolverine
> costume.
>
> People made spiderman clones too, but his powers don't exist in
> the game/editor, so Marvel isn't making a fuss over that. Same
> with various other clones whose origin/powerset doesn't line up
> neatly to the editor definitions.

And this is precisely where there suit falls on its face. What
possible sense does it make to allow The Hulk but not Spiderman,
if you're trying to take advantage of Marvel? Spiderman has
always been the most or second most popular of ALL superheroes.

> It's almost certainly too late for Cryptic to change the names
> of origins/powersets without essentially "proving" that Marvel
> was right.

I believe they could change them outright without hurting
anything.

> Marvel isn't really saying that people can make clones, they're
> saying people ARE making clones and that the editor makes it
> easy for them to do so, and the definitions in the editor guide
> some people into making certain Marvel Clones. That's true, if
> you look at it the right way.

I agree it's impossible not to note the few clones that can be
cherry-picked. But that doesn't equal encouragement. Does a
handgun encourages you to shoot people? Enabling and encouraging
are very different things.

> There were clones right from Day 1 and probably clones in beta
> too, and a large number of those clones are Hulk and Wolverine
> knockoffs.

There are still clones. Brief, bright shining stars of creative
imagination that are relatively swiftly dealth with. At least, as
far as I can tell.

> Now the fact that the EULA prohibits people from making clones
> and that Cryptic nails anyone caught with a clone should be
> more than enough evidence that Cryptic didn't intend people to
> make clones of Marvel guys.

Agreed.

> Unfortunately, Marvel has a point about the names of origins
> and power sets - they do point at a couple of Marvel properties
> to people who are either unable to come up with their own idea
> and/or are huge fans of those Marvel properties - like The Hulk
> and Wolverine.

NCSoft is treading in Marvel territory by having Mutants, the
names is all you ever have in common. In addition, it's not
protectable intellectual property.

> And that's why you should report every damn Marvel clone you
> see, because Marvel does have a point, and the courts may take
> that view.

I do not think they have a point, but I agree we need to report
clones, because I believe it hurts their case.

--
Neil Cerutti
There are two ways to argue with a woman, and neither of them
work. --Carlos Boozer
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 4:50:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

Neil Cerutti <neil.cerutti@tds.net> wrote in news:35cermF4iirniU1
@individual.net:

> And this is precisely where there suit falls on its face. What
> possible sense does it make to allow The Hulk but not Spiderman,
> if you're trying to take advantage of Marvel? Spiderman has
> always been the most or second most popular of ALL superheroes.

You know what "superhero" it suprised me wasn't included in the lawsuit??

The Punisher.

Natural Origin.
AR/Dev Blaster

Heck, I think you can even get a skull of some sort on the chest...

--
Marcel
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 4:51:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

J Anlee wrote:
> What about WoW? The whole of 'Middle-Earth' is open to those players
> (AFAIK, since I don't play that and have not looked at the char
> creator in it.)

It'd take a pretty big stretch for that--one reason is because you don't
have costumes. What you equip is reflected accurately in your game
appearance, and as you level, both your gear and appearance constantly
changes.

Of course, you can have "dress clothes", but most people would only wear
such for short periods to foor around with, and I'm not sure you could make
a recognizable costume from any such in the first place.

Sure, there are a few recognizable "Middle-earth" elements, but what fantasy
RPG with mages, druids, rogues, dragons, etc, released in the last 25 years
doesn't have them as well?

Oddly enough, I have yet to see a dwarf named "Grimly" or somesuch, and very
few attempts at other "cloned" names. For one thing, there is no good WoW
analogue for the Legolas wannabes, or much of anything else, either. I
don't even think the dwarves lend themselves to that sort of thing, and
they're probably closer than anything else.
--
chainbreaker

If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot
net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it.
Anonymous
January 22, 2005 9:20:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

J Anlee <janlee@ameritech.net> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in
>news:j6c0v09qd67u0hh3tmos41fosa9mdoaato@4ax.com:
>
>> Dark Tyger <darktiger@somewhere.net> looked up from reading the
>> entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the
>> signs say:
>>
>>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:20:31 -0500, Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>The entire bit about Statesman being a Captain America Clone with
>>>>part of Magneto's helmet tacked on seems utterly stupid to me.
>>>>
>>>>But the rest of it is petty true; You can make clones that are
>>>>good enough that everyone recognizes who it's supposed to be.
>>>
>>>Oh, yeah, they're right that you -can- do it. However, I don't
>>>think that having the ability to combine literally millions of
>>>combinations into characters that resemble theirs makes it a
>>>trademark violation. I also think they're totally full of it when
>>>they say that the character creator actually -encourages- making
>>>clones.
>>
>> I think they're a bit off base there as well, but the way the
>> origins etc are down does provide a slight bit of impetus to the
>> already imaginationless teen set.
>>
>> Describe The Hulk.
>> Huge, green, super strong, invulnerable, can leap huge distances,
>> created by a lab "accident".
>>
>> Now the editor:
>> Huge, check,
>> Science origin, check,
>> super strength, check
>> invincibility, check
>> green skin, check.
>> and at level 6, super jump, check.
>
>Uh-uh. Combat Jumping at 6, Super Jump at 14

Well yeah, but you start the pool (and gain a significant boost to
jumping) at 6.


>> The attributes of the Hulk map exactly to things in the game, or
>> at least, appear to.
>>
>> Ok, the invincibility power set is nothing like what the Hulk has,
>> and the Super Strength certainly isn't, but the names of them are.
>
>Actually, from what I've seen of superstrength and invulnerability,
>they don't come close to what Marvel's Hulk has inherent.

Note please what I said:
"Ok, the invincibility power set is nothing like what the Hulk has,
and the Super Strength certainly isn't, but the names of them are."

I'm quite aware that the implementation of those powers bears little
resemblance to what the Hulk has.
The NAMES however line up exactly to what people would use to describe
the Hulk's powers.


>> If the origin names were different and/or the power names
>> different it wouldn't be quite the same issue.
>>
>> Science+Resistant+Strongman doesn't imply the Hulk the way
>> Science+Invincible+Super Strength does, and that is what Marvel
>> seems to be saying in their overly convoluted lawyerese.
>
>Of the three that are mentioned in the original complaint (Hulk,
>Wolverine and Captain America) Marvel purports that Cryptic and NC
>Soft are forcing people to make these chararcters.

Not forcing, encouraging.

>> But Science+Super Strength+Invincible+Huge Body is going to imply
>> the Hulk to a lot of 18- people. You can even add super jump
>> later.
>>
>> Ditto with Mutation+Claws+Regeneration: to some people this is
>> always going to mean Wolverine, so they make a wolverine costume.
>>
>> People made spiderman clones too, but his powers don't exist in
>> the game/editor, so Marvel isn't making a fuss over that.
>> Same with various other clones whose origin/powerset doesn't line
>> up neatly to the editor definitions.
>>
>> It's almost certainly too late for Cryptic to change the names of
>> origins/powersets without essentially "proving" that Marvel was
>> right.
>
>And in the request for denial that NC Soft and Cryptic put to the
>judge, it states that bey design you can't use the names Wolverine,
>Hulkm The Hulk, etc., thus proving that NC Soft and Cryptic are
>watching for attempts at trademark violations.

As Marvel say in their filing, Cryptic/NCSoft are trying to use the ISP
defense, that they are a service provider and not responsible for the
actions of the people using the service.

While "Wolverine" is in the filter and can't be chosen, Wolverine1999,
W0lverine etc aren't.

So on the one hand you have Cryptic forbidding clone, but on the other
hand there's nothing stopping you from making one.

Sure, IF, you get seen by a GM, or IF you get reported as a clone, you
will be renamed/costume changed, but there's nothing stopping you from
making the clone in the first place.

>> Marvel isn't really saying that people can make clones, they're
>> saying people ARE making clones and that the editor makes it easy
>> for them to do so, and the definitions in the editor guide some
>> people into making certain Marvel Clones.
>> That's true, if you look at it the right way.
>
>Actually, Marvel is saying that the design engine is wholly geared
>for making clones, and no other type of hero.

Have you even read Marvel's filing?
It doesn't sound like it.

>> There were clones right from Day 1 and probably clones in beta
>> too, and a large number of those clones are Hulk and Wolverine
>> knockoffs.
>
>And there is also a play on it in the Prima guide.

Which is counter productive. Sure you can show a clone and say it's
lame to make one, but just showing it's possible encourages the
imaginationless lackwits to clone their favorite hero.

>> Now the fact that the EULA prohibits people from making clones and
>> that Cryptic nails anyone caught with a clone should be more than
>> enough evidence that Cryptic didn't intend people to make clones
>> of Marvel guys.
>
>Which is also stated in NC Softs and Cryptics response. Something
>along the lines of Marvel also outlawing #2 pencils, modeling clay,
>and others.

Which is a fallacy.
Pencils can be used to draw ANYTHING the user imagines.

The character editor has specific elements you can combine.
In short, pre-drawn superhero costume pieces - all you can do is stick
em together and color them.

It's the difference between modeling clay and Mr. Potatohead.

>> Unfortunately, Marvel has a point about the names of origins and
>> power sets - they do point at a couple of Marvel properties to
>> people who are either unable to come up with their own idea and/or
>> are huge fans of those Marvel properties - like The Hulk and
>> Wolverine.
>
>And what about DC Comics? Are they now part of Marvel? As it has been
>a while since I followed the industry. But if I remeber right, Green
>Lantern is a DC Comic item, with Superman and Batman and others.

So? They aren't mentioned in the suit, their heroes aren't mentioned.

Most importantly, DC haven't sold the MMORPG rights to their characters
to another party, Marvel has.

Marvel characters used in another MMORPG dilutes interest in people
playing that Marvel MMORPG when/if it ever arrives.

Marvel HAS to take action, or they can get sued by the people they sold
those rights to, since the "value" of them is diminished by CoH having
Marvel Heros.


>> And that's why you should report every damn Marvel clone you see,
>> because Marvel does have a point, and the courts may take that
>> view.
>
>And what of all these Anime clones? 8th Man and others that I have
>seen? The general populace should not have to police the City of
>paragon, as NC Soft and Cryptic are doing the policing themselves.

Anything from outside the superhero genre isn't a direct
clone/violation, and unless it too has been sold to make an MMORPG, the
impetus/need to sue isn't there.

That's Marvels point, NCSoft and Cryptic aren't doing much policing.

What are the odds that any one character gets seen by a GM, unless they
call for help or have been petitioned? Pretty small.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
Anonymous
January 23, 2005 10:40:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in
news:ifm5v0506ekjk5u67q0b7spvcf5aovgd6p@4ax.com:

> J Anlee <janlee@ameritech.net> looked up from reading the entrails
> of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>
>>Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in
>>news:j6c0v09qd67u0hh3tmos41fosa9mdoaato@4ax.com:
>>
<read the prior threads if you missed all this stuff i'm cutting out>

> Xocyll

It's funny.....

We are arguing the same thing, just different ways of saying it.

I believe that:

1. Marvel did this suit in order to get their MMOG going stronger.
2. Are ticked that the char design that NC Soft/Crypic has might be
better than what Marvel is thinking of.
3. That Marvel has some points.....but not worth suing over.

My opinion? Marvel doesn't like the idea that NC Soft/Cryptic came out
with a 'comic book hero' based MMOG first, with more options and better
story lines than they could get out without the control that Marvel
wants.

They got too corporate, while NC Soft/Cryptic got friendly.
Anonymous
January 23, 2005 12:22:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

J Anlee <janlee@ameritech.net> wrote:
> My opinion? Marvel doesn't like the idea that NC Soft/Cryptic came out
> with a 'comic book hero' based MMOG first, with more options and better
> story lines than they could get out without the control that Marvel
> wants.

I wonder exactly what Marvel could offer. Who in the hell wants to play on
a server with 200 Spideys, 200 Wolverines, 200 Storms, 200 Hulks, etc.?

--
-= Victory Server =-
-= Shenanigunner: Level 32 Natural Tanker, Fire/SS, M =-
-= Sgt Glory B: Level 16 Tech Blaster, Electric/Energy, F =-
-= Duke Miasma: Level 8 Science Controller, Grav/Force, H =-
-= the Nonpareil: Level 7 Magic Defender, Emp/Rad, F =-
-= Mean Mr Mustard: Level 7 Natural Tanker, Inv/Stone, H =-
Anonymous
January 23, 2005 9:16:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

Shenanigunner <nsp@nitrosyncretic.kom> wrote in
news:Xns95E7DA826E67nitropressatnitrosyn@216.168.3.44:

> J Anlee <janlee@ameritech.net> wrote:
>> My opinion? Marvel doesn't like the idea that NC Soft/Cryptic
>> came out with a 'comic book hero' based MMOG first, with more
>> options and better story lines than they could get out without
>> the control that Marvel wants.
>
> I wonder exactly what Marvel could offer. Who in the hell wants to
> play on a server with 200 Spideys, 200 Wolverines, 200 Storms, 200
> Hulks, etc.?
>

You're not on Protector are you?

I regularly run into low (less than lvl 10) chars that are trying so
hard to be clone wanna-bees (has the costume, but not the name; has a
derivative of the name; has some of the back story; etc.) that there
are days I feel I'm already playing in a Marvel Universe.

I have not seen any higher (>30) chars that are like that though. Maybe
they got tired of getting their char renamed/banned/joked at, that they
grew their own imagination, or just gave up.

There is/was a supergroup on Protector back in June that was pure
marvel oriented, your char had to have some sort of costume/name/back
story in line with the Marvel Universe.

I haven't seen them in a while either.
Anonymous
January 23, 2005 9:31:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

Neil Cerutti <neil.cerutti@tds.net> looked up from reading the entrails
of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>In article <j6c0v09qd67u0hh3tmos41fosa9mdoaato@4ax.com>, Xocyll wrote:
>> Dark Tyger <darktiger@somewhere.net> looked up from reading the entrails
>> of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>>
>>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:20:31 -0500, Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>The entire bit about Statesman being a Captain America Clone with part
>>>>of Magneto's helmet tacked on seems utterly stupid to me.
>>>>
>>>>But the rest of it is petty true; You can make clones that are good
>>>>enough that everyone recognizes who it's supposed to be.
>>>
>>>Oh, yeah, they're right that you -can- do it. However, I don't think
>>>that having the ability to combine literally millions of combinations
>>>into characters that resemble theirs makes it a trademark violation. I
>>>also think they're totally full of it when they say that the character
>>>creator actually -encourages- making clones.
>>
>> I think they're a bit off base there as well, but the way the origins
>> etc are down does provide a slight bit of impetus to the already
>> imaginationless teen set.
>>
>> Describe The Hulk.
>> Huge, green, super strong, invulnerable, can leap huge
>> distances, created by a lab "accident".
>>
>> Now the editor:
>> Huge, check,
>> Science origin, check,
>> super strength, check
>> invincibility, check
>> green skin, check.
>> and at level 6, super jump, check.
>>
>> The attributes of the Hulk map exactly to things in the game,
>> or at least, appear to.
>
>That's the *beauty* of the character creation process. The
>flexibility. But for every Marvel character you can make a good
>approximation of, there's pretty much one for which you can't
>really come close. Marvel, and cloners, have to cherry pick.
>
>> Ok, the invincibility power set is nothing like what the Hulk
>> has, and the Super Strength certainly isn't, but the names of
>> them are.
>>
>> If the origin names were different and/or the power names
>> different it wouldn't be quite the same issue.
>>
>> Science+Resistant+Strongman doesn't imply the Hulk the way
>> Science+Invincible+Super Strength does, and that is what Marvel seems to
>> be saying in their overly convoluted lawyerese.
>
>I doubt different names would change anything. Resistant
>Strongman is just as good an approximation of the Hulk as Super
>Strength with Invulnerability.

I wouldn't think so.
Resistant implies that you will take damage, but will resist some of it.
Invulnerable implies not really getting hurt at all.

Strongman makes me think of Circus Strongmen, stronger than the average
human, but hardly "Super".

Super Strength on the other hand, makes me think of Superman, The Hulk,
etc - guys who can pick up a truck and toss it a mile or 3 away.

What we actually get in game is more like Strongman, but it's not called
that.

The names line up perfectly with the comic character descriptions.

>> But Science+Super Strength+Invincible+Huge Body is going to
>> imply the Hulk to a lot of 18- people. You can even add super
>> jump later.
>>
>> Ditto with Mutation+Claws+Regeneration: to some people this is
>> always going to mean Wolverine, so they make a wolverine
>> costume.
>>
>> People made spiderman clones too, but his powers don't exist in
>> the game/editor, so Marvel isn't making a fuss over that. Same
>> with various other clones whose origin/powerset doesn't line up
>> neatly to the editor definitions.
>
>And this is precisely where there suit falls on its face. What
>possible sense does it make to allow The Hulk but not Spiderman,
>if you're trying to take advantage of Marvel? Spiderman has
>always been the most or second most popular of ALL superheroes.

So what. Marvel isn't claiming Spiderman is being infringed on.

It's not like every single Marvel Hero in existence must be cloneable
for them to have a point about Wolverine/Hulk/Storm being highly
cloneable.

The only really absurd thing in the suit is them claiming Statesman is a
Captain American knockoff.

>> It's almost certainly too late for Cryptic to change the names
>> of origins/powersets without essentially "proving" that Marvel
>> was right.
>
>I believe they could change them outright without hurting
>anything.

Maybe. But since suit has been filed, changing those names now would
give Marvel more ammo, since it could be seen as an admission that
Marvel was right about those names "guiding" people toward making
knockoffs.

>> Marvel isn't really saying that people can make clones, they're
>> saying people ARE making clones and that the editor makes it
>> easy for them to do so, and the definitions in the editor guide
>> some people into making certain Marvel Clones. That's true, if
>> you look at it the right way.
>
>I agree it's impossible not to note the few clones that can be
>cherry-picked. But that doesn't equal encouragement. Does a
>handgun encourages you to shoot people? Enabling and encouraging
>are very different things.

You don't do anything with a handgun but shoot - you aren't creating
anything.

Marvel's point is that the very names used for origins and powers (and
the powers themselves to a point) guide people to making specific clones
of Marvel Trademarks.
They do.
I've seen hundreds, if not thousands, of different Hulk clones, and
Wolverine clones.

I've seen lots of other clones as well (Marvel and others), but they're
about an order of magnitude more rare than Hulk/Logan.
Why?
Because of the Mutant/Claws/Regen and Science/Invuln/Super
Strength/large body matchups.
You can have the look, and to some extent, the feel, of those two heros,
especially Wolverine.


Another fairly popular knockoff: Leeloo from The Fifth Element.
Why?
Because there is a fairly close representation of the "Thermal Bandages"
costume she starts out in.

What else has that costume look been used for - I can only recall it
being used in the fifth element.
It could be argued that Cryptic is encouraging Leeloo knockoffs by
including that costume option, since it will instantly remind people of
Leeloo.
[And lets face it, Mila Jovovich in that costume IS memorable.]

>> There were clones right from Day 1 and probably clones in beta
>> too, and a large number of those clones are Hulk and Wolverine
>> knockoffs.
>
>There are still clones. Brief, bright shining stars of creative
>imagination that are relatively swiftly dealth with. At least, as
>far as I can tell.

They weren't dealt with quickly at the start though.
There were entire friggen supergroups of clones, and they didn't all get
changed quickly.

Cryptic nails them pretty fast these days, at least if they are pointed
out.

Which makes me wonder - do the GM's actually keep a lookout for clones,
or are they nailing the petitioned ones simply because they were
petitioned, and there is now a record of that infraction that they
cannot "turn a blind eye" towards.

In the beginning there seemed to be a lot of "blind eyes" turned towards
clones.

>> Now the fact that the EULA prohibits people from making clones
>> and that Cryptic nails anyone caught with a clone should be
>> more than enough evidence that Cryptic didn't intend people to
>> make clones of Marvel guys.
>
>Agreed.

>> Unfortunately, Marvel has a point about the names of origins
>> and power sets - they do point at a couple of Marvel properties
>> to people who are either unable to come up with their own idea
>> and/or are huge fans of those Marvel properties - like The Hulk
>> and Wolverine.
>
>NCSoft is treading in Marvel territory by having Mutants, the
>names is all you ever have in common. In addition, it's not
>protectable intellectual property.

I don't think it's that simple, since the Hulk isn't a Mutant, and he's
a big part of Marvel's case.

Names are important, as I said above, since names shape thinking.

>> And that's why you should report every damn Marvel clone you
>> see, because Marvel does have a point, and the courts may take
>> that view.
>
>I do not think they have a point, but I agree we need to report
>clones, because I believe it hurts their case.

More importantly, it gives Cryptic a nice long list of Clones that have
been dealt with.
It also gives a swift kick in the crotch for all the idiots who can't be
bothered using a bit of imagination and making their own hero.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
Anonymous
January 24, 2005 3:40:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.coh (More info?)

"Marcel Beaudoin" <mbeauINVALID@sympaINVALIDtico.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns95E55A11D8E16mbeausympaticoca@130.133.1.4...
....
> You know what "superhero" it suprised me wasn't included in the lawsuit??
>
> The Punisher.

I don't know if Marvel wants to bring too much attention to thier
Executioner ripoff,
in a lawsuit about intellectual property violations.

--
Carl Burke
cdburke@his.com
!