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When will we see multiple actuators in HDDs?

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  • Hard Drives
  • Storage
Last response: in Storage
February 19, 2007 7:30:10 AM

For several years now I've sort of been expecting HDD manufacturers to start introducing HDDs with multiple actuators. But it doesn't seem to be happening...

Surely this is the most obvious way to increase throughput? Even if we go back to monster-footprint drives (Quantum Bigfoot, anyone?) surely if the result is a doubling (with 2 actuators) or quadrupling (with 4) of throughput, it's worth it? I'd snap up such a drive if one became available!

Surely there's no technical reason preventing this development? I would think a reasonable amount of R&D would produce results fairly quickly?

More about : multiple actuators hdds

February 19, 2007 7:48:43 AM

That's a good idea, just have them in oposite sides it should be a problem i think. Maybe because of the size, but if they can make a 2.5 drive, they can make a 3.5 with the 2.5 internals but with two readers!
February 19, 2007 7:58:09 AM

sort of a raid 0 self contained all in one package. been wondering the same myself :p 
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February 19, 2007 8:40:57 AM

I suppose there's some reason for not having a few of them. Unless those guys at WD and Seagate are content with current performance levels (Which have been growing slower than those of..let's say...CPUs, RAM, Video cards)
February 19, 2007 10:14:52 AM

wont it have double the chance of failure? or even more? cause your stuffing more components into a tighter area. and besides unlike CPUs RAM and Video cards Hdds are physical/macanical things rather then the others that have no moving parts which means that developmnet is going to be slower cause it doesnt really line in with the every 18 months semiconductor size halves (hooks?) law.
incidently 300
February 19, 2007 10:35:29 AM

Yeah, it's of course an inescapable fact that increasing the complexity of a system increases its susceptibility.... But with HDDs being as reliable as they are nowadays... and the rate of upgrade... By the time it was close to wearing out, I'd have a new one, as would a lot of people who would buy these kind of high-performance drives. And such a system would have built-in redundancy anyway... of one actuator failed, you've still got the other one. So in fact, you're halving your chances of losing data :) 
February 19, 2007 11:36:15 AM

yep, unless the damage is done at disc surface :p 


hmm what we need is a competition war in HDD's like we have in CPUs and Vid cards now...

Maybe if nvidia or amd started making hdds... :roll:
February 19, 2007 12:00:11 PM

But people used to say that about having multiple heads/platters.... People used to say that about 3.5" HDDs, then about 2.5" HDDs... "It's new! It's small! It's unreliable!" pfffft....
a b G Storage
February 19, 2007 2:58:43 PM

Off the top of my head
"its new! It's small! It's unreliable!" - Ford Pinto
"its new! It's small! It's unreliable!" - 1gb Jazz disks
"its new! It's small! It's unreliable!" - Flash memory
"its new! It's small! It's unreliable!" - LCD's


and they were right.
February 19, 2007 4:40:12 PM

I doubt you'll see multiple actuators. The power dissipation of the hard drive goes up a lot, and you have to have extra logic on the HD to intelligently distribute the read/write requests to the actuator that's best positioned to get the data. You probably also run into some alignment/gain issues when one actuator tries to read data that the other actuator wrote.

What would be better but accomplish the same gains in data rate would be to have two channel decoder chips, each working with 1/2 the heads. Then, on a 2-platter/4-head drive for example, you have each decoder chip working with 2 heads. You could now read/write using 2 heads at once, effectively doubling throughput. The logic for distributing read/write requests is far simpler, no additional mechanics, very little additional power dissipation, just a little more cost and logic in the electronics design.
February 19, 2007 5:24:11 PM

conventional HDD's should not be improved, THEY SHOULD BE DISCONTINUED!

we need to focus on RAM hard drives... we need a nice 250gb DDR2 hd... it can be done and I think you can get these drives in smaller sizes... we need to stop focussing our attention on a technology that is just too slow and ... mechanical.


exec rantend.exe
February 19, 2007 5:46:22 PM

To change the topic slightly...

"It's old, it's Texan, it's unreliable!" - George Bush
February 19, 2007 6:16:47 PM

When the people of Denmark decide to get up off their bums and help end terrorism, or at least do something other than stick their fingers in their ears and humming loudly, then you can say something negative against our president. Until then...

-A dictator that is estimated to have killed over million people is dead.
-Instead of blowing things up in my backyard they are blowing up things in theirs!
-Instead of driving the US to chaos, they are the ones who cannot walk down the street without being shot at.
-The hunters are now the prey!
-The US economy is soaring to new heights that it has never seen before.
-Our quality of life increases while theirs is falling apart with their misguided approach of trying to destroy everyone else's way of life instead of fixing their own issues.

Nope, Im sticking by my pres. "W"
February 19, 2007 6:22:01 PM

wtf?

lock this thread... its going to strange... political place
February 19, 2007 6:58:28 PM

Quote:

-Instead of blowing things up in my backyard they are blowing up things in theirs!
-Instead of driving the US to chaos, they are the ones who cannot walk down the street without being shot at.
-The US economy is soaring to new heights that it has never seen before.
-Our quality of life increases while theirs is falling apart with their misguided approach of trying to destroy everyone else's way of life instead of fixing their own issues.

Nope, Im sticking by my pres. "W"


I hope this is a joke. I really, really do. Just in case though:

- So as long as US citizens are being killed then who cares right?
- As for the economy, its called inflation. (not to mention the ridiculous amount of ever increasing debt)
- And what better way to improve US quality of life that to lower the quality of millions of other people, thereby statistically improving the US relative to the rest of the world?
February 19, 2007 7:15:04 PM

Quote:
- So as long as US citizens are being killed then who cares right?
- As for the economy, its called inflation. (not to mention the ridiculous amount of ever increasing debt)
- And what better way to improve US quality of life that to lower the quality of millions of other people, thereby statistically improving the US relative to the rest of the world?


-More people died in the US this year alone from doing insanely stupid shit like getting behind the wheel of a car while drunk and getting into an accident. That sucked up 14,400 lives this year alone.
-A global war on terror spanning two nations and 150,000+ troops in day to day attacks and counter-attacks and in 5 years we've lost ~3,000. Looking at past history I think that ranks right there with about the most efficient war in the history of the world.
-Whats a hundred billion to a nation with a trillion dollar economy.
-You seem to forget that billions of those dollars go towards rebuilding those nations.
-Then again its hard to see that when the only thing shown on the news are the deaths instead of the insanely amount of good that is done each day.

Quote:
Oh, and just a point of interest:

Why the US is so smart with their money.

Ridiculous blog. (nice try hiding that) Not even worth opening.
February 19, 2007 7:22:47 PM

If you really want all those other things to happen, why don't we get rid of all the real waste the government has, like paying the politicians to sit around and read telephone books to everyone and putting in sweet deals for each little district within much larger/more important bills.

The DOD is a necessary thing. It pays the livelihood of hundreds of thousands of American soldiers, as well as giving jobs to the millions of workers it takes to make and develop all the stuff that it takes to run the military.

Our actions in Iraq have not lowered the quality of life there. In fact, it has become much better since the war started. Yes, there has been destruction of infrastructure and loss of life, but any infrastructure we have destroyed, we have rebuilt at least once (often many, thanks to suicide bombers), while the loss of life was very minimal. I have read some old newspaper articles and such from the time just before our entering WWII, and there seems to have been a similar sense of "lets stay out of it, its not a problem we need to deal with" from that time period. 70 years later, I see none of that same issue about it. America (once again) saved France's and everyone else's butts from an evil force that was trying to take over the world. We did a similar thing in the middle east, only we didn't allow it to get to the point where we'd have to level whole cities to get it done.

War is a necessary evil. It is required to stop evil and terror from becoming the world. Yes, death happens in war, but it is required. Talk doesn't stop dictators from doing what they please. Thats why they are dictators.

Enough about war from me.


SSD's are going to replace hard drives eventually. Putting in an extra actuator would produce much less extra performance than it may seem. Getting rid of any mechanical parts makes the whole system much more reliable and much faster. Currently $/gb with flash is poor compared to hard drives, and that is why they are still around. Eventually the costs will come down, the drives will be mainstream, and everyone wins. I'm gonna call it to happen in the next 5-10 years, but its anyone's guess. Tech has been quite unpredictable over history. It is going to happen though, of that I'm certain. Hard disks will be around for a very long time, with very high storage densities, but the price gradient will become less and less, and the market will shift toward some version of SSD, be it mram, flash, pram, or whatever sort of (non-volatile) memory they discover between now and then.
February 19, 2007 7:33:54 PM

^^^ The voice of reason.


I think the second actuator is a dead end to an old platform. It would constitute a drastic change that OEM's simply arent willing to take with the likes of Solid State on the horizon.

The money should be focused on future products and leave the old drives for what they will soon become, Mass Storage Devices for backup purposes.
February 19, 2007 7:50:31 PM

My "So as long as US citizens are being killed then who cares right? " was actually supposed to be "aren't" instead of "are" btw. Typo, sorry for the confusion. I meant as long as the US is safe, then who cares how much havok you are wreaking on the rest of the world.

I don't want to argue about war, I just found that link interesting.

Sorry to continue this but:

Linkage

Quote:
As of the end of 2006, the total U.S. public debt was $4.9 trillion. This does not include the money owed by states, corporations, or individuals, nor does it include the money owed to Social Security beneficiaries in the future. If intragovernment debt obligations are included, the debt figure rises to $8.6 trillion. In 2005 the public debt was 64.7% of GDP.


I just can't understand the US governements "spend our way out of debt" attitude. Many other countries have tried that and failed. The US is trying to do that and (as you can see from the % of GDP) is failing. So, yes, you have an economy in the trillions, but your debt is now at $5 trillion.
February 19, 2007 8:10:00 PM

I dont consider it as havok on the world. Its simply placing the emphasis where it needs to be, The Middle East. Thats the nesting place of terrorism. And thats where the attention needs to be placed. Not in downtown manhattan.

Im not sure if that link takes into account that at the end of 2006 the numbers for the national debt ended up being half of what was expected. It really through off a lot of predictions.

It is always expected that a nation will have an increase in debt during wartime. But, when things normalize those issues are usually addressed. For example that is a major topic now that the war is winding down. There have been a slew of budget proposals coming out in past weeks.

That 4.9 is the overall total for our nation since its inception, most of which came from WWII. It only went up 500 Billion this year. You also forget that most of the debtors the government owes money to is its own citizens. Our national yearly GDP is 13 Trillion. You will also notice that the debt is roughly half of what is was during WWII.

When looking at the graph it becomes evident that we are running less debt than in the late 90's Link
February 19, 2007 8:21:03 PM

You seem to be mixing terms here, I'm pretty sure that it wasn't the debt that ended up being half of what it should be, but was the deficit. Also, looking through various websites, the numbers actually vary quite widely, all I am trying to comment on is that the debt as a % of GDP has been rising for the last decade or so (note before the war). Because of this, for every tax dollar the US government collects they must pay an increasing portion to paying off their deficit (i.e. interest).

As for attacking the middle east to "fighting terrorism", that doesn't make any sense. Why did the US get attacked in the first place? Because the terrorists were jealous of them? They don't like our western morals? The reason they attacked the US is because they wanted to overthrow their own countries in the middle east. Of course they couldn't do this on their own, so they got the US to topple their governments for them, now they just have to wait till the US runs away after "winning" and start a civil war. If you doubt this, what other reason could the terrorists have?
February 19, 2007 8:21:48 PM

WTF has this got to do with hard disks?
February 19, 2007 8:31:37 PM

Quote:
As for attacking the middle east to "fighting terrorism", that doesn't make any sense. Why did the US get attacked in the first place? Because the terrorists were jealous of them? They don't like our western morals? The reason they attacked the US is because they wanted to overthrow their own countries in the middle east. Of course they couldn't do this on their own, so they got the US to topple their governments for them, now they just have to wait till the US runs away after "winning" and start a civil war. If you doubt this, what other reason could the terrorists have?

Seems extraordinarily unlikely as many of the current governments are in cahoots with these regimes already. They wouldnt want us to topple a friendly government that supports their regimes.

I think its infinitely more likely that their new government will be far less likely to lend a helping hand towards a regime that just caused them to get their asses handed to them.
February 19, 2007 8:35:49 PM

Hard disks are a part of the economy?...


I was thinking the same thing.

@gm0n3y:
What should we do, now that the war has been started, and the government overthrown? Surely we can't just run away and let the civil wars break out!

I think its worthy of mention that the middle east throughout history has been a place of turmoil and war. Every so often, one religious group decides to go and annihilate another and since most of the governments are based in religious groups, wars between countries break out. These days its a bit more grievous since the advent of the SCUD and biological warfare. The people we call "Terrorists" in this sense are actually a misnomer. They are part of a way of life that is militant and since they are so small, they have to rely on guerilla tactics to get their points across. Since their religious convictions are such that they will be martyred and have x number of virgins when they blow themselves up, they are quite willing to perform this sort of war.

We just call them terrorists to make them feel small and isolated, when in fact they are nothing of the sort. Loosely connected, hodgepoged together, maybe, but nothing short of a real threat to the lives of everyone in the world. I, for one, am glad that SOMETHING is being done about it, even if it may be just a little off of what exactly needs to be done.

Kinda like hard drives. We are trying to solve the problem of performance in our drives, and some people think that more parts/complexity is needed to make them faster. This would make them faster, but with alternatives available (albeit at much higher cost) more options need to be thought about.

It seems that there are two veins of discussion here that while completely divergent, both can be at least marginally thought provoking.
February 19, 2007 8:38:45 PM

Quote:
Hard disks are a part of the economy?...

Yeah its completely relevant. We dont want those terrorists to get second actuators in those hard drives so they can carry out digital espionage and attacks against the rest of the world even faster than before. :p 
February 19, 2007 10:14:26 PM

@elpresidente2075 & sandmanwn

Quote:
Yeah its completely relevant.


Agreed. Let talk of it no further. And for the record, regardless of how it all started, I agree that the US should stick it out (at least for now). Also, I commend the US soldiers for the work they have been doing there, its a tough job and I don't envy them.

@ Hard Drives

I would be willing to accept the added increase of risk of 2+ actuators. I would just make sure that I had some redundancy. I'm not sure that flash drives are going to be feasible for the most part any time soon. Maybe for a boot/swap drive, but I need 1TB+ of space for all my music, movies, games, etc and I don't think that SSDs are going to be anywhere near that affordably any time soon.

What ever happened to the work being done in 3D holo-media? Wasn't that supposed to offer like 100+TB/cubic inch?
February 19, 2007 10:58:19 PM

Quote:
What ever happened to the work being done in 3D holo-media? Wasn't that supposed to offer like 100+TB/cubic inch?


Tell me about it! I read some stuff about it a couple of YEARS ago and it got me all jazzed up about it. Even today we still don't hear anything about it. It makes me wonder if all the scientists got hired by hard drive companies so to keep themselves in business.

I have the same beef with MRam, in development by Infineon and IBM that was supposedly to be released early last year, and I haven't heard anything about that either. Its supposed to have non-volatile storage densities of nearly 100 times flash's highest theoretical density (I think, its been a couple years :roll:)  with read/write speeds on par with today's volatile DRAM.

[joking]
While we're talking about promised tech that is yet to be delivered, where's my flying car?[/joking]
February 19, 2007 11:06:58 PM

Exactly, I remember hearing about holo-media about 6 or 7 years ago and it sounded like it wasn't some far-off idea. It seemed like it was just a few years away from seeing at least decent prototypes. I'm surprised we haven't heard anything about it in a long time, it seemed to have so much space / speed potential.
February 20, 2007 12:07:19 AM

Quote:
Exactly, I remember hearing about holo-media about 6 or 7 years ago and it sounded like it wasn't some far-off idea. It seemed like it was just a few years away from seeing at least decent prototypes. I'm surprised we haven't heard anything about it in a long time, it seemed to have so much space / speed potential.


The drives and the media are ready, but they perform poorly in terms of transfer rates (20MB/sec - yes that is Megabytes! lol) and the storage space is not that big yet (around 500GB per disc), not to mention the price... forget it. It still needs a lot of refinement and research. So ahead we continue with our trusty old HDs... hehe
February 20, 2007 12:08:29 AM

Quote:
Exactly, I remember hearing about holo-media about 6 or 7 years ago and it sounded like it wasn't some far-off idea. It seemed like it was just a few years away from seeing at least decent prototypes. I'm surprised we haven't heard anything about it in a long time, it seemed to have so much space / speed potential.


The drives and the media are ready, but they perform poorly in terms of transfer rates (20MB/sec - yes that is Megabytes! lol) and the storage space is not that big yet (around 500GB per disc), not to mention the price... forget it. It still needs a lot of refinement and research. So ahead we continue with our trusty old HDs... hehe

Funny thing... i just noticed... trusty... t-rusty!... lol!
February 20, 2007 12:55:01 AM

-A dictator that is estimated to have killed over million people is dead.
civilian casualties in Iraq since 2003: 650,000
civilian casualties in Iraq from 1991-2003: 500,000 (1st war and sanctions)

-Instead of blowing things up in my backyard they are blowing up things in theirs!
what goes around, comes around

-Instead of driving the US to chaos, they are the ones who cannot walk down the street without being shot at.
Iraqis we not the only ones without health care, education, energy policy, etc.

-The US economy is soaring to new heights that it has never seen before.
Exxon Mobil *profits* are $100,000,000 per DAY

-Our quality of life increases while theirs is falling apart with their misguided approach of trying to destroy everyone else's way of life instead of fixing their own issues.
wealth only comes at the expense of the poor

Quote:
Nope, Im sticking by my pres. "W"

ignorance is bliss
February 20, 2007 12:57:43 AM

Quote:
-A dictator that is estimated to have killed over million people is dead.
civilian casualties in Iraq since 2003: 650,000
civilian casualties in Iraq from 1991-2003: 500,000 (1st war and sanctions)

-Instead of blowing things up in my backyard they are blowing up things in theirs!
what goes around, comes around

-Instead of driving the US to chaos, they are the ones who cannot walk down the street without being shot at.
Iraqis we not the only ones without health care, education, energy policy, etc.

-The US economy is soaring to new heights that it has never seen before.
Exxon Mobil *profits* are $100,000,000 per DAY

-Our quality of life increases while theirs is falling apart with their misguided approach of trying to destroy everyone else's way of life instead of fixing their own issues.
wealth only comes at the expense of the poor

Nope, Im sticking by my pres. "W"

ignorance is bliss


My dear friend, i tottaly agree with you, but this is not the place for that discussion. Please let it go here. If you would like to bring up the subject on some other forum i am sure there will be plenty to discuss about. :) 
February 20, 2007 1:04:42 AM

Even though I don't want to continue this line of discussion, I think an important distinction needs to be made here. A casualty is someone that is either injured or killed. Someone who is killed is just that - killed. Sure, many people died in the war, but many, many of those 650k that you noted were injuries, many not related to American incursions but to their own people who just can't get it through their heads that blowing themselves up in public places is not a good thing.

The rest of your statement seems a bit tongue in cheek, so I won't talk about that.

For the sake of the topic: STORAGE MEDIUMS ARE TOO SLOW!!
February 20, 2007 1:27:04 AM

please just create a thread somewhere else... like on msn... or over the phone... or just shoot yourselves, please
February 20, 2007 2:03:53 AM

Quote:
civilian casualties in Iraq since 2003: 650,000
civilian casualties in Iraq from 1991-2003: 500,000 (1st war and sanctions)

Those civilian casualties from 1991-2003 were for the most part due to the ethnic violence by the bathe party to maintain power after their government collapsed. You wouldnt have those numbers if it werent for the US soldiers over their now digging up all those mass graves idiot.

As elpresidente said about the 2003-present, the military can only account for perhaps 50,000 of those deaths and for the most part most of those were done from the air attacks long before the troops hit the ground. The rest are self inflicted idiocy from their neighbors like Iran and Syria who are looking to destabilize the region for their own benefit.

I bet it makes you feel big and justified to artificially inflate numbers to help your argument. Unfortunately it fails because you have no proof. Every time someone digs up another mass grave with 30,000+ dead Iraqis in it with chemical burns and signs of people being buried alive it really must be hard for you to dig through that thick skull of yours to find another reason to blame the US.

Quote:
Exxon Mobil *profits* are $100,000,000 per DAY

Yeah and what of it. I can name about 100,000 other companies that are making a few extra million these days. I dont recall that being a crime. If you werent half retarded you would realize that they also contribute the most to developing technologies to better the industry. But the blind eye always only tells half the story.

Quote:
ignorance is bliss

Coming from someone whose arguments are baseless and have zero accuracy, it seems like you live in ignorance on a daily basis.

Quote:
or just shoot yourselves, please

you first.

Quote:
http://www.geardigest.com/2007/02/19/worlds_smallest_hd...

:lol:  i wonder what kind of results you could get by strapping 100 or so of those together with a good raid controller :lol: 

Thats pretty friggin sweet. Now if they could only do that for SSD. Now that would be a breakthrough worth noting.
February 20, 2007 8:47:34 AM

As I recall before the age of Raptors the dual actuator thing was done either by Quantum or IBM in SCSI drives. It gave you twice as many tracks per cylinder cutting access time or latency depending on the firmware loaded. That was the first pass and selling a drive for data access or video access. Technology, cost, speed and MBTF or mergers made them eventually disappear. But everyone wanted one at the time.

Now dual actuator pretty much refers to single head assembly with voice coil primary and electrostaic or piezo fine positioning.
February 20, 2007 5:16:09 PM

Quote:
Exactly, I remember hearing about holo-media about 6 or 7 years ago and it sounded like it wasn't some far-off idea. It seemed like it was just a few years away from seeing at least decent prototypes. I'm surprised we haven't heard anything about it in a long time, it seemed to have so much space / speed potential.


The drives and the media are ready, but they perform poorly in terms of transfer rates (20MB/sec - yes that is Megabytes! lol) and the storage space is not that big yet (around 500GB per disc), not to mention the price... forget it. It still needs a lot of refinement and research. So ahead we continue with our trusty old HDs... hehe

Do you have a link to any of this info? I'd like to read more about that.
February 20, 2007 7:07:28 PM

Quote:
Exactly, I remember hearing about holo-media about 6 or 7 years ago and it sounded like it wasn't some far-off idea. It seemed like it was just a few years away from seeing at least decent prototypes. I'm surprised we haven't heard anything about it in a long time, it seemed to have so much space / speed potential.


The drives and the media are ready, but they perform poorly in terms of transfer rates (20MB/sec - yes that is Megabytes! lol) and the storage space is not that big yet (around 500GB per disc), not to mention the price... forget it. It still needs a lot of refinement and research. So ahead we continue with our trusty old HDs... hehe

Do you have a link to any of this info? I'd like to read more about that.

Me too!
February 20, 2007 10:58:12 PM

I actually read the article in a magazine "ATOMIC", here in Australia, and the company that released the product was InPhase. But here is a similar link http://techreport.com/onearticle.x/11840 or you can do a search on Google and you will find quite a few news on the products that are currently on the market.
February 21, 2007 12:06:23 AM

There used to be such a thing but they're too expensive to be used realistically, RAID is much more cost effective.
February 21, 2007 2:37:38 AM

Quote:
There used to be such a thing but they're too expensive to be used realistically, RAID is much more cost effective.


Not used to be, there is, but InPhase's product is too expensive and is currently only released to the movie production market at extraordinary prices.
What has RAID got to do with Holographic technology? Currently the only advantages of holotech is density. RAID has to do with redudancy and speed. What is your point?
February 21, 2007 2:41:32 AM

I think he was referring to the multiple actuators on hard drives.
February 21, 2007 2:42:43 AM

Quote:
I think he was referring to the multiple actuators on hard drives.


But his reply says: In reply to darkguset

...and we were talking about holotech.
LOL!
February 21, 2007 3:58:10 PM

I have a feeling that if they put as much money into the holo-media research that they put into hard disk or even SSD research, the products would be much more compelling and probably cheaper.
February 21, 2007 4:27:05 PM

Ahh, yes, but that is how it is in any industry where there's a product type and whole supporting industry that would be totally obsoleted by a new tech.

Its the same reason its being so hard to get away from fossil fuels. When most of the top ten richest companies of the world are that of oil production, a lot of clout and money will go toward supporting their current business model, not obsoleting it.

Antivirus companies did it with Vista and the kernel.

Macrovision is doing it right now with DRM, although they are starting to lose a bit of support.

Interesting and funny article.


The list goes on until eternity. I still wish that the future of technology would get here sooner. It sucks having to deal with inferior products when something orders of magnitude more powerful is just right on the horizon, but being held back by arbitrary funding constraints placed on them to continue support for outdated business models.

Hard drives have become a commodity, and this is why we see little change besides capacity and rotational speed in the last decade or so. Since the brand/model of the hard disk is completely irrelevant to the consumer, the hard drive companies do as little innovation as they can while still putting on the guise of real innovation to keep the big box suppliers interested.

Blech... I hate it when an industry becomes commoditzed.
February 21, 2007 4:36:37 PM

Money, not progress or perfomance, talks.