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February 24, 2007 1:48:35 AM

I don't post much, but I've been watching these forums' professionalism, expertise, and knowledge get gradually diluted into obscurity and ignorance by novices for over five years now.

Disclosure: I am no expert in microelectronics myself.

However, I used to be able to go to the community of THG for answers when I needed them. Now I can't. Why? If I ask a question, it will be answered by fellow novices (most of the time) and the thread will become overlooked.

I suspect that the dwindling population of experts on this forum (crashman, wusy, et al) don't bother weighing in because they've answered the same blasted questions so many times they've give up. Unfortunately for the unenlightened and unstudied, the "search" function isn't nearly as helpful as we wish it were.

So what's the answer? We need solid resources. And like most honest pieces of knowlege (these days), they should be present -- free of charge -- online. Where are they? I, for one, work 80 hours a week and don't have time to find out like I wish I did.

What we need are particularly useful stickies. Wusy was kind enough to make a C2D overclocking guide. But what if you're an adult novice computer user with a woman (or man) and/or a job.. AND an nVidia chipset? No help there.

What a lot of us are lacking are fundamentals. If someone could read a solid article or body of text explaining the CONCEPTS of Wusy's guide, then it should be recognized and advertised for all on this forum. An article, so complete and essentially fundamental, that any user -- regardless of their socket, processor, or chipset -- would have at least a good idea of how to set a healthy OC configuration in their BIOS, is what each of these forums needs. That goes for HD issues, GPU issues, RAM issues... all of it.

As much as I wish I could help with the question I've asked, I can't. Can't anyone else? Let's recognize your intelligence and kindness with some stickies! Step up to the plate! It shouldn't take much effort (if you know your stuff). All it takes is a good link to some good information (and I don't mean links to intel developer white papers! :)  ).

What do you guys think?

More about : resources experts

February 24, 2007 2:27:54 AM

You´re right that some of the older posters seem to take a break from the blatant ignorance and stupidity that is more and more common nowadays. I can´t blame them. I think it was Steven King who said that moronic stupidity is the greatest form of evil there is. I tend to agree.
February 24, 2007 2:47:59 AM

Quote:
You´re right that some of the older posters seem to take a break from the blatant ignorance and stupidity that is more and more common nowadays. I can´t blame them. I think it was Steven King who said that moronic stupidity is the greatest form of evil there is. I tend to agree.


IMHO: There is more good information on this site than 99% of the other sites out there. Sure we get carried away at times doesn't everyone. You just have to work to get it. It is worth the effort.

I prefer to think of it as unbridled passion rather than blatant ignorance and stupidity.

___________________
No matter where you go or what you do, you live your entire life within the confines of your head. ~Terry Josephson
Related resources
February 24, 2007 3:42:50 AM

Quote:
I don't post much, but I've been watching these forums' professionalism, expertise, and knowledge get gradually diluted into obscurity and ignorance by novices for over five years now.

Disclosure: I am no expert in microelectronics myself.

However, I used to be able to go to the community of THG for answers when I needed them. Now I can't. Why? If I ask a question, it will be answered by fellow novices (most of the time) and the thread will become overlooked.

I suspect that the dwindling population of experts on this forum (crashman, wusy, et al) don't bother weighing in because they've answered the same blasted questions so many times they've give up. Unfortunately for the unenlightened and unstudied, the "search" function isn't nearly as helpful as we wish it were.

So what's the answer? We need solid resources. And like most honest pieces of knowlege (these days), they should be present -- free of charge -- online. Where are they? I, for one, work 80 hours a week and don't have time to find out like I wish I did.

What we need are particularly useful stickies. Wusy was kind enough to make a C2D overclocking guide. But what if you're an adult novice computer user with a woman (or man) and/or a job.. AND an nVidia chipset? No help there.

What a lot of us are lacking are fundamentals. If someone could read a solid article or body of text explaining the CONCEPTS of Wusy's guide, then it should be recognized and advertised for all on this forum. An article, so complete and essentially fundamental, that any user -- regardless of their socket, processor, or chipset -- would have at least a good idea of how to set a healthy OC configuration in their BIOS, is what each of these forums needs. That goes for HD issues, GPU issues, RAM issues... all of it.

As much as I wish I could help with the question I've asked, I can't. Can't anyone else? Let's recognize your intelligence and kindness with some stickies! Step up to the plate! It shouldn't take much effort (if you know your stuff). All it takes is a good link to some good information (and I don't mean links to intel developer white papers! :)  ).

What do you guys think?


80 hours a week? That still leaves 88 hours to do your own investigation, purchase your results and build it... Why are you whinging? Gee... I only get to work on average 38 hours a week. Do you see me whinging?

OK, back on topic... Yes, the chaff has gotten a bit thick. Yes, the stickies could be improved, as could the search engine. But no one at tom's seems to listen now that Thomas Pabst has departed. There was a time when ads on this site were verboten. Now I see them popping up in topics. (Check out my new WhizBang! $24.99 to the first 10 posters!)

I think I'll get a username on Anand's site to see if its just here or universal.

My 2p...
February 24, 2007 5:29:49 AM

hi folks
about microelectronics...i know just the basics
i finished some clases where they teach us the basics of algoritms and SO
i learned that in the times when one load a computer program with a cassete tape...yes you can laugh but that was real.. 8O ..
i remember how thrilled i was when our school received four 4 rigs pentium 133..
ok back to topic
i also read a lot of the topics posted here at tom's and b y all means here one can find good info about computers,but that info needs to be filtered....cuz sometimes seems that one who has a computer becomes suddenly an expert...no offence..
thanks to that info found here at tom's i was able to build my own rig last year

to provide solid info it take a lot of time research and passion..and in our days time is a valuable thing....one needs a LOT passion to dedicate time to do all the research needed
about ignorance and stupidity...i want to say this
there are no big words just small heads .... :wink:
i go to do my research....see ya
February 24, 2007 6:02:18 AM

I can definitely see where you are coming from. I by no means know everything and I make my share of mistakes, but I DO know what I am talking about. It seems lately I find that a lot of the "help" I am providing to people comes in the form of correcting bad advice or misinformation be earlier posters who see to be relatively new here. I think this is one of the reasons I find myself lately going more for the discussion threads than for the "Help Me" threads. That and the above point that repeating yourself gets old fast.

As for what to do to fix it, I don't know. An improved search function would go a long way, though you can't make people actually use it, no matter how good it is. Everyone seems to think their problem is unique or original.

As for the Anandtech forums, I hang out there semi-regularly, and people there definitely have less of a clue about things than people do here. At least the ones I've run into. It also seems to me that political issues and personal attacks make their way into threads there more often than here.

Thats my 0.028 worth of copper for you
February 24, 2007 6:33:34 AM

Quote:
I can definitely see where you are coming from. I by no means know everything and I make my share of mistakes, but I DO know what I am talking about. It seems lately I find that a lot of the "help" I am providing to people comes in the form of correcting bad advice or misinformation be earlier posters who see to be relatively new here. I think this is one of the reasons I find myself lately going more for the discussion threads than for the "Help Me" threads. That and the above point that repeating yourself gets old fast.

As for what to do to fix it, I don't know. An improved search function would go a long way, though you can't make people actually use it, no matter how good it is. Everyone seems to think their problem is unique or original.

As for the Anandtech forums, I hang out there semi-regularly, and people there definitely have less of a clue about things than people do here. At least the ones I've run into. It also seems to me that political issues and personal attacks make their way into threads there more often than here.

Thats my 0.028 worth of copper for you



I had to think long and hard on that, and am not quite sure that I have formulated my response in full yet.

There are a few people on THG that I respect for their value. Joset, JJ, Da(sick)ninja, 3lfking, even sometimes BM... And you. I left out quite a few, but you know who you are.

I know that I don't know much in the desktop space, so tend to watch more than reply. I also tend to reply to ignorance with acerbic remarks.

All, consider this an apology.

However, there are a few that are such biased fanboi's that restraining oneself is rather difficult....

My 2 coppers.
February 24, 2007 9:39:45 AM

Quote:


However, I used to be able to go to the community of THG for answers when I needed them. Now I can't. Why? If I ask a question, it will be answered by fellow novices (most of the time) and the thread will become overlooked.



It doesn`t mean that if someone is novice in this forums, will not anwser to your problem correctly. There are people (like me) that have been watching this forum for long time now, and just decided to start posting. I`ve been member to well known forums, i`ve been at around 13 years with pc hardware (getting my bachelor on computer Science this year) and i have a broad knoledge on hardware.
So because i am novice , it means that my answers will not be approved and i will make any thread overlooked because i replied???
February 24, 2007 9:48:05 AM

Quote:
...What a lot of us are lacking are fundamentals. If someone could read a solid article or body of text explaining the CONCEPTS of Wusy's guide, then it should be recognized and advertised for all on this forum. An article, so complete and essentially fundamental, that any user -- regardless of their socket, processor, or chipset -- would have at least a good idea of how to set a healthy OC configuration in their BIOS, is what each of these forums needs. That goes for HD issues, GPU issues, RAM issues... all of it...
There is a lot of help available online for fundamentals. Just try these for example:

X-Bit labs overclocking guide 10/04/05
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/oc-guide.h...

Madshrimps Athlon64 overclocking guide 5/18/05
http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=gethowto&howtoID=58

Overclock.net Newcomers guide 4/02/04
http://www.overclock.net/overclock.php?file=articles/ov...

Neoseeker Overclocking guide 2/12/04
http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Guides/OCgui...

Tom's overclocking guide 1/02/97
http://www.tomshardware.com/1997/01/02/overclocking_gui...

Of course, I'm just another novice throwing in my 2 cents.
February 25, 2007 1:29:42 AM

Quote:


However, I used to be able to go to the community of THG for answers when I needed them. Now I can't. Why? If I ask a question, it will be answered by fellow novices (most of the time) and the thread will become overlooked.



It doesn`t mean that if someone is novice in this forums, will not anwser to your problem correctly. There are people (like me) that have been watching this forum for long time now, and just decided to start posting. I`ve been member to well known forums, i`ve been at around 13 years with pc hardware (getting my bachelor on computer Science this year) and i have a broad knoledge on hardware.
So because i am novice , it means that my answers will not be approved and i will make any thread overlooked because i replied???

I think my initial post may have been a little hard on some people. I think I may have been drunk when I made it. So don't get me wrong -- I have no problems with Novice posters trying to get involved in the community. They have every right to answer postings, and it's at least honorable they have the will, if not a way, to help a stranger.

It's just that we find less introspection among novices, ie "Do I truly know the answer to this question, or am I just making an educated (or not) guess?" In such cases, I normally get the wrong answer and have to do the dreaded "bump." In said cases, the thread becomes real uninteresting real fast, and goes nowhere.
February 25, 2007 1:34:28 AM

Quote:
...What a lot of us are lacking are fundamentals. If someone could read a solid article or body of text explaining the CONCEPTS of Wusy's guide, then it should be recognized and advertised for all on this forum. An article, so complete and essentially fundamental, that any user -- regardless of their socket, processor, or chipset -- would have at least a good idea of how to set a healthy OC configuration in their BIOS, is what each of these forums needs. That goes for HD issues, GPU issues, RAM issues... all of it...
There is a lot of help available online for fundamentals. Just try these for example:

X-Bit labs overclocking guide 10/04/05
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/oc-guide.h...

Madshrimps Athlon64 overclocking guide 5/18/05
http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=gethowto&howtoID=58

Overclock.net Newcomers guide 4/02/04
http://www.overclock.net/overclock.php?file=articles/ov...

Neoseeker Overclocking guide 2/12/04
http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Guides/OCgui...

Tom's overclocking guide 1/02/97
http://www.tomshardware.com/1997/01/02/overclocking_gui...

Of course, I'm just another novice throwing in my 2 cents.

Good job, novice, that's just what I'm talking about! :)  j/k. But seriously, that is what we need. Perhaps you have started a sticky that could eliminate some searches in the OC thread. Can someone expand upon it?

I think every forum should have a peer-reviewed, up-to-date FAQ. Of course, if a new search function can't be implemented, I won't hold my breath.

Perhaps a better question: Which forum on the web would you guys say is the best technical knowledge base? Which website has the best, most up-to-date articles?
February 25, 2007 2:03:57 AM

The truth is, everyones just so tired. I've almost totally given up on build recommendations. Sometimes I wonder if the results from my reviews gets past peoples' eyeballs. As for behavior, I don't feel like saying anything. I'm in no way the expert that Wusy or Crash are, on their off days, but I try my best. Everyone's pretty much just worn out.

I just need a vacation. No reviews, no CPU's, no tests, no school work, nothing thats taxing. Just gaming, music and sleep.
February 25, 2007 2:40:08 AM

Quote:
The truth is, everyones just so tired. I've almost totally given up on build recommendations. Sometimes I wonder if the results from my reviews gets past peoples' eyeballs. As for behavior, I don't feel like saying anything. I'm in no way the expert that Wusy or Crash are, on their off days, but I try my best. Everyone's pretty much just worn out.

I just need a vacation. No reviews, no CPU's, no tests, no school work, nothing thats taxing. Just gaming, music and sleep.


Same :wink: ...well, I still help occasionally :D 
February 25, 2007 2:51:56 AM

Dude, when I formed DaClan.. or whatever we called ourselves way back then, you were not only my first reader and supporter, but turned out to be a founding member. I trust you more than anyone else here save very few. Help out? I couldn't have done it without you, Dario, Anoobis, Prozac, Wusy, Superfly, and Uber G. Consider this my thank you. Muchos gracias hombre. I trust you handle the business well till I feel rested enough.
February 25, 2007 3:24:19 AM

Thanks much man. I feel honored :D  :trophy: . But... without the strong alliance of people within DaClan ....there wouldn't be DaClan, and without DaClan there wouldn't be a group of people with a reputation people on THGFZ can trust. We are a team and we couldn't have accomplished what we have so far if we were all alone, so 2 cheers to you for being the initial founder and 3 cheers to honor Wusy for being the root of our inspiration.

I'll be sure keep the boards alive in the meantime and continue to poke noobs with a stick while your away as should the rest of DaClan. :wink:

Go work on your new Evo :D 

Enjoy your vacation Ninja

~3lfk1ng
February 25, 2007 4:20:44 AM

ya the threads that have been posted over the last few years have really gone down the tubes, I personally rarely post unless it is someone I feel sorry for because no one has answered an easy question simply because most of the people in here seem to know very little and talk in circles never really answering the initial question asked. At this point in time I have really given up on THG and moved on to other places that have more intellectual people that acctually know what they are talking about. If the forums here hadn't gone down hill so fast, maybe I would be more willing to stay and help out. I mean come on, some of the recent THG articles where the "Overclocked" were simply crap, staying in the 3.0GHz range for a x6800 is utter bs and if you cant get to 5GHz with such a processor under decent cooling(phase) you should not be allowed to make such articles because I see it more or less pulling down the validity of THG in general and pushes people like me that acctually know how to get decent overclocks away. It isn't just the forums, THG as a whole has gone down hill, so most knowledgeable people left when they noticed it, because they didn't want to put up with a bunch of retards that think they know something when in fact they know very little.
February 25, 2007 4:21:36 AM

WARNING JUST GOT INTO ARGUMENT WITH THE OLD LADY. FORGIVE ME TOMMOROW IF I COME ACROSS A BIT NEGATIVE. :twisted:

Quote:
I don't post much, but I've been watching these forums' professionalism, expertise, and knowledge get gradually diluted into obscurity and ignorance by novices for over five years now.


Do you believe this what you say is true? "you've watched the knowledge dilute for over 5 years now?" Building a Ibm style system is not rocket science like many of us would like to think. All you need is a motherboard, powersupply, cpu, case, ram, and drives and smack them all together. Yes we have invested hard earned dollars into are systems, but it is a very simple subject. This site mainly discusses computer hardware which i repeat is not complex. Isnt it just possible you rather talk to your aristocratic buddies with 1000+ posts?

Quote:
If I ask a question, it will be answered by fellow novices (most of the time) and the thread will become overlooked.


Why would you post a thread then? If you have a problem with the Tgforumz community replying to your threads why even bother posting? If your going to complain about who answers your thread just send a pm to the ladies and gents who have over a thousand posts. The information is out THERE. Even a guy dumb as a door nail can answer all your computer questions. For christ sakes look at dell. Look at those jackels! Dell is suprisingly capable of fixing your busted up pc! So i dont care what your say. Joehoe with 2 posts is just as capable as answering any question mr.ninja kungfu stew and whoever else you like to broadcast.


Quote:
What do you guys think?


i m guessing you have read what i had truely felt after reading your original post. I could not truely describe the reaction i felt after reading your post though. If i were to explain it i guess i kind of felt like you were shooting these forums down. Seperating those who you claim are worthey and sending the rest of us to hell. But you know what this is a forum. Society may segregate us, but your attempts to divide this website into experts and newblets will always fail. Men and women from all across the world will out type your hands and post whatever they want. They may even double post the same question!!(omg what a big deal? a double post? who really cares?? omg 1kb of webserver space taken up now!!??) Damnit let me end this rant here
February 25, 2007 4:28:30 AM

Quote:


However, I used to be able to go to the community of THG for answers when I needed them. Now I can't. Why? If I ask a question, it will be answered by fellow novices (most of the time) and the thread will become overlooked.



It doesn`t mean that if someone is novice in this forums, will not anwser to your problem correctly. There are people (like me) that have been watching this forum for long time now, and just decided to start posting. I`ve been member to well known forums, i`ve been at around 13 years with pc hardware (getting my bachelor on computer Science this year) and i have a broad knoledge on hardware.
So because i am novice , it means that my answers will not be approved and i will make any thread overlooked because i replied???

I think you are getting a bit defensive. While most of us did say that a lot of misinformation or bad advice comes from novices, at least speaking for myself, I feel I should clarify some things:

When I say novice, I don't necessarily mean new here (though I did say so in my original post), but I mean people that are either new to the game in general, or have an over inflated opinion of their PC knowledge.

As an example, I can't tell you how many times I've had to correct relatively new posters that were "helping" others by saying things like you ave to get a SATA-2 drive, because its so much faster than SATA-1, or other relatively simple things like that. These are usually borderline enthusiasts that know just enough to be dangerous (we all know a few like them).

Nobody said novices never give good advice, or that new users shouldn't post or weaken a thread. There are a lot of very knowledgeable new participants here that provide a lot of help and good posts. We don't want to discourage people from posting, we just want people (ALL users, not just noobs or whatever), to think before they post. Like Ninja said, you can only reply to so many "rate my build/build my next PC" posts before it gets old.

Remember, everyone here, good, bad, or just annoying, was new once. If new users don't post, the forums don't grow. If they post lots of crap, the quality declines.
February 25, 2007 4:51:49 AM

A little bit elitist there, don't you think?

Just because you can OC such and such chip to such and such speed, doesn't make you better than, or mean you know more than the rest of us. THG has moved to a more general audience than they had before, and therefore, they have to cover moderate overclocks as well as extreme. Not everyone is interested in using phase change coolers, or even overclocking. Further, last time I checked, THG was a site dedicated to technology, not exclusively overclocking

Can you design an ALU or memory chip from component gates and circuits? Can you layout the same in VHDL or program them with an Assembly Language? If not, I guess that makes me better and more knowledgeable than you. Apparently all the people with knowledge have not left.
February 25, 2007 4:58:10 AM

Quote:
Sorry to pick what now, i havent bother to read the other posts,

But you, i think, all have FAILED TO NOTICE THATS ITS AN XGE SLOT!

XGE is something of AGP but faster and only certian MOBOS have the XGE slot on it.

Go back to ****/ where ever you got it,

Say "its the wrong slot" they should give you another X1950PRO but get this time make sure it SAYS "AGP"


I pulled this from another thread I am participating in as an example of exactly what this topic is talking about. The user jumps in at the end of the thread (after the issue was resolved), and throws out this little beauty. Apparently, we all failed to notice that said card was for a slot that doesn't exist. These are the kinds of posts that take away from the forum.

NOTE, this user has been here a while and has around 400 posts, qualifying him as neither a novice or a veteran. A perfect example of my earlier point.

FYI, The issue was that the OP bought a shrink wrapped X1950 XGE AGP card at a certain retail store, and when he got it home, there was a Radeon 9250 in the box instead.
February 25, 2007 8:48:27 AM

Quote:
It doesn`t mean that if someone is novice in this forums, will not anwser to your problem correctly. There are people (like me) that have been watching this forum for long time now, and just decided to start posting. I`ve been member to well known forums, i`ve been at around 13 years with pc hardware (getting my bachelor on computer Science this year) and i have a broad knoledge on hardware.
So because i am novice , it means that my answers will not be approved and i will make any thread overlooked because i replied???
Your post count at this forum is low. You are not a novice. Over time, members will learn the value of your thoughts based on what you write rather than your forum title or post count. This forum includes a wide diversity of members. That makes for good entertainment value.
February 25, 2007 9:13:39 AM

Quote:
Good job, novice, that's just what I'm talking about! :)  j/k. But seriously, that is what we need. Perhaps you have started a sticky that could eliminate some searches in the OC thread. Can someone expand upon it?
I think every forum should have a peer-reviewed, up-to-date FAQ. Of course, if a new search function can't be implemented, I won't hold my breath.

Gee Thanks, I think...
Your original question centered around a general sticky covering overclocking parameters for all types of systems. No wonder wusy only gave specifics on one platform. There are too many variables here to address. If you want to overclock your system you start with research on the basics. Each of us has to learn the "why" on our own. If your particular problem or question is so difficult that only a few here can correctly answer, then maybe try this:
Quote:
Perhaps a better question: Which forum on the web would you guys say is the best technical knowledge base? Which website has the best, most up-to-date articles?
No articles, but help.
http://www.experts-exchange.com/

If what you really want is just a recipe of vcore, vram, fsb settings etc. for your particular system, then good luck. Half the fun is doing the work yourself. No time after working 80 hours a week making money? Then buy a better system.
February 25, 2007 9:54:26 AM

Heres my 2c, the way I see it is that people here want to show and ask about their own stuff. ie hows this build? People want to share not just their knowledge here but also their rigs. Maybe a oc challenge, maybe a 3dmark 06 challenge/post. Thats just a community being a community. Bad advice is bad advice, just like opinions everyones got one. The passion here is faaaantastic, seeing everyone trying to help one another. We should all appreciate the shared knowledge more than we do. Thats a rare thing, sometimes people hold back their knowledge to lord it over others, but not too much of that being done here. I want to thank everyone thats ever tried to help anyone here, because as my father told me when I was young , there are NO stupid questions , only stupid answers
February 25, 2007 11:18:18 AM

Good point.
You could always post your request in the TG Forum Related section of the Community category.
Weeding out old flame threads is certainly useful.
I don't search those out anyway. Some of Wingding's early posts have a certain entertainment value though...
!