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State of the Industry?

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Anonymous
August 14, 2004 11:49:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Ok, it's been a while since I checked in here. Last time was a couple years
ago, and back then the consensus was:

* HDTV over the air is all messed up. Competing formats, etc etc.
* HDTV over cable is practically nonexistent
* HDTV DVD's are nowhere to be found because of the industry's desire to
make us hook up the DVD players directly to the TV via a firewire like
connection.
* No HDTV DVR's

Today, here is my perception, please tell me if I am correct:

* HDTV over the air is about the same
* HDTV over cable is a whole lot better (but WHY isn't CBS in Seattle on
Comcast?)
* Nothing changed for DVDs, except for those DVD's that play an HD
MediaPlayer 9 file (like the T2 HD edition or Step Into Liquid).
* TiVo has an HD DVR, but if I go to tivo.com they don't talk about it. I
don't know if the TiVO DVR will record HD OTA broadcasts

What about Microsoft's media pc? What's it got for HD?

It sounds like things are still a little fractured, and that I am still
hesitant to buy the goods to go to HDTV. What can I say... I want it all. I
want HD local stations, HD over a satellite, HD on DVD, and a HD DVR. And I
would really like it to all be in one box.

toodles!
Dave

More about : state industry

Anonymous
August 15, 2004 3:05:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Dave Edson (Dave@ReplayAmusements.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> Ok, it's been a while since I checked in here. Last time was a couple years
> ago, and back then the consensus was:
>
> * HDTV over the air is all messed up. Competing formats, etc etc.

There were never competing formats. There has only been one standard
for OTA HDTV in the US.

> Today, here is my perception, please tell me if I am correct:
>
> * HDTV over the air is about the same

Yes, it is. It uses the same standard now (ATSC) that it used then (ATSC).

And, there is a boatload of it if you live in any major city.

> * TiVo has an HD DVR, but if I go to tivo.com they don't talk about it. I
> don't know if the TiVO DVR will record HD OTA broadcasts

There is the HD DirecTiVo (you must be a DirecTV subscriber) that records
both DirecTV and OTA. Zenith has a standalone that records OTA HD, and
there is at least one other.

There is also at least one STB that outputs via FireWire so you can record
to a D-VHS.

> What about Microsoft's media pc? What's it got for HD?

Nada.

But, you could just buy any one of the PCI HDTV cards (I like the MIT
MDP-120 MyHD) and record using your PC.

--
Jeff Rife | "I feel the need...the need for
SPAM bait: | expeditious velocity"
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov |
spam@ftc.gov | -- Brain
August 15, 2004 6:59:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Dave Edson" <Dave@ReplayAmusements.com> wrote in message
news:B_udnb3c1dC6UoPcRVn-pg@comcast.com...
> * HDTV over the air is all messed up. Competing formats, etc etc.

18 ATSC formats supported by all recievers. Seems fine to me.

> * HDTV over cable is practically nonexistent

Really? I get it over DirecTV and my Time Warner offers it in my
neighborhood also.


> * No HDTV DVR's

Really? DirecTV has one.

> * HDTV over the air is about the same

The same as what?

> * HDTV over cable is a whole lot better (but WHY isn't CBS in Seattle on
> Comcast?)

Better then what? As I understand DirecTV they just pass the data stream
as is so it is not any different.
Related resources
Anonymous
August 15, 2004 7:20:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

All I can say is that as an HDTV owner I just wish the whole thing would go
away. The reason I bought what I did is because the bedroom TV was in need
of replacement and my thinking was why invest in a technology that will most
likely be obsolete in another couple of years. So, I took the plunge and
bought a 26 inch LCD, tuner and antenna.

In all honesty, I can say that the difference between NTSC and HDTV is
somewhat apparent but hardly worth the extra money involved, it is a royal
pain to achieve good reception for HDTV programming if you live in a condo
which does not allow an outdoor antenna (as I do), your cable reception is
bad ( I can't even receive NBC through cable the reception is so poor) and
you had to dump Directv because of a stinking tree (as I did). What's more,
the DVD issue is not good as current DVDs do not fill the 16:9 HDTV frame
properly.

If I were to get word that NTSC had just received a shot in the arm and that
the govt. decided it would NOT pull its plug, I would probably dump the HDTV
world and just buy a good Sony (like the one I have in the living room which
in many respects outperforms my JVC LCD HDTV).
August 15, 2004 8:31:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jay A wrote:

> the DVD issue is not good as current DVDs do not fill the 16:9 HDTV frame
> properly.

Not even "widescreen" formatted DVD's? I was counting on:

(a) widescreen DVD filling the screen
(b) improved picture quality (with progressive scan DVD player and
component video cabling)
(c) even better quality with Superbit DVD's

Well I haven't bought the HDTV yet, just put down a (refundable)
deposit.

Now I'm wondering whether it's worth it.

Sean
Anonymous
August 15, 2004 9:01:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I'm not familiar with the small LCD TV's. If it were me I would call
the JVC support/tech and ask how to fill out the screen when watching
a wide screen DVD. Does you DVD player have the zoom option to help
the wide screen type DVD's fit the wide screen TV screen.

Poor Cable reception. Have you reported this to your Cable company.
If they can't fix it try talking or write a letter to the Cable
service manager. If that don't work perhaps your states PUC
commission could help. If they can't the FCC may be worth a call.

Ever think of switching to the Dish Network or Direct TV.
I understand there lower priced than Cable.

Most HDTV's have a menu page to zoom, partial zoom, full zoom or widen
the picture to fit the screen. When watching a 4:3 picture even the
Dish 811 receiver has these same options but it will also place gray
lines on each side of the picture to prevent burn-in on wide screen if
needed.

hdtvfan


On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 03:20:19 GMT, "Jay A" <cajay@verizon.net> wrote:

>All I can say is that as an HDTV owner I just wish the whole thing would go
>away. The reason I bought what I did is because the bedroom TV was in need
>of replacement and my thinking was why invest in a technology that will most
>likely be obsolete in another couple of years. So, I took the plunge and
>bought a 26 inch LCD, tuner and antenna.
>
>In all honesty, I can say that the difference between NTSC and HDTV is
>somewhat apparent but hardly worth the extra money involved, it is a royal
>pain to achieve good reception for HDTV programming if you live in a condo
>which does not allow an outdoor antenna (as I do), your cable reception is
>bad ( I can't even receive NBC through cable the reception is so poor) and
>you had to dump Directv because of a stinking tree (as I did). What's more,
>the DVD issue is not good as current DVDs do not fill the 16:9 HDTV frame
>properly.
>
>If I were to get word that NTSC had just received a shot in the arm and that
>the govt. decided it would NOT pull its plug, I would probably dump the HDTV
>world and just buy a good Sony (like the one I have in the living room which
>in many respects outperforms my JVC LCD HDTV).
>
>
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
August 15, 2004 9:55:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

> Not even "widescreen" formatted DVD's? I was counting on:
>
> (a) widescreen DVD filling the screen
> (b) improved picture quality (with progressive scan DVD player and
> component video cabling)
> (c) even better quality with Superbit DVD's

Well, I can't speak for all of them but any that I have viewed are worse
than watching on a regular tv. The letterbox just gets narrower on a 16:9
screen. Remember, the 16:9 screen is essentially a narrower screen
height-wise so a letterbox image which may fill the screen along its length,
isn't going to magically grow in height by itself. You have to stretch it to
make it fill the height thus cropping (or compressing) the length.


> Well I haven't bought the HDTV yet, just put down a (refundable)
> deposit.
>
> Now I'm wondering whether it's worth it.

I am sure that almost all who own HDTV would disagree with what I say about
it. I did watch the Olympic opening ceremony last night and was impressed.
No question, when compared side by side, HDTV does look better than standard
TV, but all I am saying is that after having made the plunge, I seriously
think it's way overpriced for the benefits, and second, you have to be aware
of the pitfalls, especially if you cannot install a rooftop antenna for over
the air telecasts. If price was equal, maybe then it would make more sense
but even so, know what you are up against. Remember, in the digital world,
there is no such thing as less than perfect reception. Either you have a
picture, of if reception is just not good enough, you have nothing. It's
like cell phones...in the old analog days, if you got bad reception you
would still be able to hear the other party, albeit with static, but you
could hear them. Now, if you don't get good enough reception, you hear
nothing. Same here...below a certain threshold, you get nothing, not a snowy
picture, just nothing. It's very irritating to try and place an antenna in
order to pick up 25 some odd stations (yes, that's how many HDTV stations
there are in the LA area) and try and get reception from all of them. It's
done wonders for the rotator industry, I am sure. It's also very irritating
to give in, and hook up the cable connection to the HDTV tuner and not get
one or two stations at all because your cable company just provides lousy
reception altogether. I might add that it's also annoying to try and watch
the Olympics on NBC on the first Saturday only to find out that their HDTV
feed is showing nothing but reruns of the opening ceremony all day long
while their regular non HD feed is showing the actual events!
Anonymous
August 15, 2004 3:04:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Jay A" <cajay@verizon.net> wrote in
news:8VCTc.7735$SC1.6789@nwrddc03.gnilink.net:

>> Not even "widescreen" formatted DVD's? I was counting on:
>>
>> (a) widescreen DVD filling the screen
>> (b) improved picture quality (with progressive scan DVD player and
>> component video cabling)
>> (c) even better quality with Superbit DVD's
>
> Well, I can't speak for all of them but any that I have viewed are
> worse than watching on a regular tv. The letterbox just gets narrower
> on a 16:9 screen. Remember, the 16:9 screen is essentially a narrower
> screen height-wise so a letterbox image which may fill the screen
> along its length, isn't going to magically grow in height by itself.
> You have to stretch it to make it fill the height thus cropping (or
> compressing) the length.
>
>
>> Well I haven't bought the HDTV yet, just put down a (refundable)
>> deposit.
>>
>> Now I'm wondering whether it's worth it.
>
> I am sure that almost all who own HDTV would disagree with what I say
> about it. I did watch the Olympic opening ceremony last night and was
> impressed. No question, when compared side by side, HDTV does look
> better than standard TV, but all I am saying is that after having made
> the plunge, I seriously think it's way overpriced for the benefits,
> and second, you have to be aware of the pitfalls, especially if you
> cannot install a rooftop antenna for over the air telecasts. If price
> was equal, maybe then it would make more sense but even so, know what

I paid nearly twice what my brother paid for a decent 27-inch regular TV.
But I got a lot more television set (Samsung 27-inch Dyna-Flat Tantus
HDTV). The thing is, I immediately had to replace my satellite receiver
because the only way I'm going to get much HD content this far up the
Fraser Valley in an apartment is to use satellite (which I was doing
anyway for the regular content) or cable.

Now I'm hearing a lot of people complaining about the SD reception on
some of the newer HD sets. I wonder if that's because there is no line-
doubler in the set or if it's an option they haven't turned on. There's
also an upconverter in my satellite receiver (it will output all content
at 1080i if I make it).

The trick with DVD's, I find, is to purchase the anamorphic prints and to
set the player to actually squeeze them to the full screen height. On
the really wide stiff this will still leave black bars top and bottom but
they will be much thinner than the ones on a 4:3 television. On my 4:3
CRT set, that means I can flip the TV to widescreen mode and it then
scans only the center 3/4 of the screen area, concentrating all of its
horizontal lines in that area and thus giving better resolution than the
other method of scanning the whole screen but sending black lines for 1/4
of it. If the movie is 16:9, then my whole scan is being used to display
it, even though the TV is blacked top and bottom (it's not scanning black
lines into those spaces or even scanning them at all).

With your 16:9 TV, you would find that the movie filled the screen and
was in the proper aspect ratio.

There IS a bit of a learning curve to setting these things up, even with
standard definition TV's of modern manufacture that have aspect ratio
settings and such. My brother's Panasonic does a fairly good job of
playing DVD's, though not quite as good as mine.

> you are up against. Remember, in the digital world, there is no such
> thing as less than perfect reception. Either you have a picture, of if
> reception is just not good enough, you have nothing. It's like cell
> phones...in the old analog days, if you got bad reception you would
> still be able to hear the other party, albeit with static, but you
> could hear them. Now, if you don't get good enough reception, you hear
> nothing. Same here...below a certain threshold, you get nothing, not a
> snowy picture, just nothing. It's very irritating to try and place an
> antenna in order to pick up 25 some odd stations (yes, that's how many
> HDTV stations there are in the LA area) and try and get reception from
> all of them. It's done wonders for the rotator industry, I am sure.
> It's also very irritating to give in, and hook up the cable connection
> to the HDTV tuner and not get one or two stations at all because your
> cable company just provides lousy reception altogether. I might add
> that it's also annoying to try and watch the Olympics on NBC on the
> first Saturday only to find out that their HDTV feed is showing
> nothing but reruns of the opening ceremony all day long while their
> regular non HD feed is showing the actual events!

I understand your frustration. That's one reason why I did a little
apartment shopping before I moved here. I insisted on being able to see
the Star Choice birds from my balcony. (I can see the other company's,
too, just in case I want to change).

--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667

A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
Anonymous
August 15, 2004 5:06:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Dave Edson" <Dave@ReplayAmusements.com> wrote in message
news:B_udnb3c1dC6UoPcRVn-pg@comcast.com...
> Today, here is my perception, please tell me if I am correct:
>
> * HDTV over the air is about the same

Disagree - OTA ATSC is working fine in my house with a pair of rabbit
ears/loop that I don't have to adjust to get everything.

> * HDTV over cable is a whole lot better (but WHY isn't CBS in Seattle on
> Comcast?)

Yes... except many cable systems do not carry either all available HD
networks nor all HD locals (which is why you gotta have the OTA receiver)

for instance, Comcast here in Richmond VA does not carry CBS, UPN or PBS in
HD - nor Fox in SD
Anonymous
August 15, 2004 5:56:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

> A 26" display probably won't do HDTV justice. But how did you hook
> the tuner to the LCD? At the risk of insulting you, I trust you know
> that you cannot pass HD through either composite or S-Video
> connections. You must use component, DVI or HDMI (a few devices also
> support FireWire). Of these, DVI or HDMI is generally the best
> choice.

-Through DVI cable


> The FCC might have something to say about that. Their rules don't
> give you complete freedom to put an antenna wherever you want, but
> they do override certain rules set by landlords, homeowner's
> associations, etc. I suspect you can put an antenna on any part of
> the condo you own or control.

-FCC rules state that I have the right to install an antenna...they also
state that I do NOT have the right to drill holes in the condo's walls to do
so!


>
> > your cable reception is
> >bad ( I can't even receive NBC through cable the reception is so poor)
>
> You need to hammer on your cable company about that.

-Ever try and do this?


>
> > and you had to dump Directv because of a stinking tree (as I did).
>
> Midnight Tree Trimming Service? 8-)

-The tree is about 100 feet tall


>
> > What's more, the DVD issue is not good as current DVDs do not fill
> > the 16:9 HDTV frame properly.
>
> Select 16:9 mode on the DVD player (which stretches most movies
> vertically) then use horizontal stretch on the LCD to fill the screen
> horizontally and restore the proper aspect ratio. It still may not
> fill the screen vertically because most movies are wider than 16:9.

-I'll try this, thanks
Anonymous
August 15, 2004 6:00:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"hdtvfan" <hdtvfan@earthlink.com> wrote in message
news:9j7uh0ld9a9o7cns7j0vgjgoeqjsb2esq4@4ax.com...
> I'm not familiar with the small LCD TV's. If it were me I would call
> the JVC support/tech and ask how to fill out the screen when watching
> a wide screen DVD. Does you DVD player have the zoom option to help
> the wide screen type DVD's fit the wide screen TV screen.

Yes it does but having played around with it, I can say most all the setting
either stretch or compress the picture way too much for my taste.


>
> Poor Cable reception. Have you reported this to your Cable company.
> If they can't fix it try talking or write a letter to the Cable
> service manager. If that don't work perhaps your states PUC
> commission could help. If they can't the FCC may be worth a call.

Most of the guys running my cable company are too busy trying to get out of
jail to answer phones.


>
> Ever think of switching to the Dish Network or Direct TV.

I had Directv for 7 years. Had to get rid of it because the tree it's
pointed at has gotten too big and reception is not reliable anymore. Tried
getting Directv to relocate the dish but the guy complained about moving the
dish due to the fact that he would have a hard time climbing up his ladder
at the only other location where one could be placed on my condo.
Anonymous
August 15, 2004 6:47:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jay A (cajay@verizon.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> Well, I can't speak for all of them but any that I have viewed are worse
> than watching on a regular tv. The letterbox just gets narrower on a 16:9
> screen. Remember, the 16:9 screen is essentially a narrower screen
> height-wise so a letterbox image which may fill the screen along its length,
> isn't going to magically grow in height by itself. You have to stretch it to
> make it fill the height thus cropping (or compressing) the length.

You need to tell your DVD player that you have a 16:9 TV. This will solve
the problems.

--
Jeff Rife | "If the world were destroyed and you were the
SPAM bait: | last man within a thousand mile radius, I would
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov | swim across the ocean on a rumor that Screech
spam@ftc.gov | from 'Saved by the Bell' was spotted in Japan."
| -- Ellen
Anonymous
August 17, 2004 8:53:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Randy Sweeney wrote:
> "Dave Edson" <Dave@ReplayAmusements.com> wrote in message
> news:B_udnb3c1dC6UoPcRVn-pg@comcast.com...
>
>>Today, here is my perception, please tell me if I am correct:
>>
>>* HDTV over the air is about the same
>
>
> Disagree - OTA ATSC is working fine in my house with a pair of rabbit
> ears/loop that I don't have to adjust to get everything.
>

Disagree - OTA ATSC is about the same as Dave suggest. Its always
working fine in your house and in about 50% of homes. That is about the
same as it has been since the beginning. Little improvement in
receivers, no one making many, little to no advertising etc. Stagnation!
Mandate! etc.

The reality for many is the same as was found in Mark Schubin's
apartment in Manhattan and Richard Bogner's home on Long Island. In both
cases you have engineers with long histories in the TV business, in the
broadcast and receive antenna business and in HDTV. In both cases HDTV
reception was horrible because of multipath, trees blowing in the wind
etc. Mark could receive 8 or 9 NTSC channels just fine with a simple
antenna on top of his TV set in his apartment.

He could NOT receive more than one ATSC channel from any one placement
of the antenna in the apartment. Richard could only receive three with a
yagi on the roof with a rotor and even they were unwatchable if there
was a breeze.

The good news is that the present disaster will be alleviated by the 5th
generation LG chipsets due this fall and next spring in Zenith and
Hisense receivers.

The most compelling proof of how bad 8-VSB has been is how much better
it is with this new chip set. Both Richard and Mark could receive ALL
channels that they could find on a spectrum analyzer with a simple loop
antenna with no positioning indoors. That was 8 channels for Mark and 10
for Richard.

In both cases this was a RADICAL improvement.

However to keep this in perspective this 5th generation LG technology is
still no where near as good as 1998 COFDM technology.

Its one, and most important feature, is that it works very well in a
fixed location.
!