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HDTV on digital or regular cable?

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August 15, 2004 10:19:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

We are getting an HDTV with integrated HD tuner.
My question is the following:
1. If regular cable carries ABC and ABC is broadcasting the program
in HD why cannot I view it in HD?
2. If cable with the Digital Set Top Box carries ABC and ABC is
broadcasting the program in HD why cannot I view it in HD?

Thanks,

JW
Anonymous
August 15, 2004 10:19:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"jw" <jw@unearthly.net> wrote in message
news:%ONTc.1656$Kf4.1623@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> We are getting an HDTV with integrated HD tuner.
> My question is the following:
> 1. If regular cable carries ABC and ABC is broadcasting the program
> in HD why cannot I view it in HD?
> 2. If cable with the Digital Set Top Box carries ABC and ABC is
> broadcasting the program in HD why cannot I view it in HD?
>
> Thanks,
>
> JW

There are lots of copies of the network streams on cable - some regular and
some modifed bit streams of the HD.

Cable encodes, modulates, and transmits HD in a different format from
over-the-air HD transmissions .
Cable systems often encrypt the channels too.
Even normal "digital" cable is encoded differently from HD digital cable
channels.

For example... there is a channel on cable for "normal" ABC and a separate
one for the ABC-HD.

Also, the cable guys typically only carry the main "-1" HD channel (and not
the "-2" & "-3" subchannels) of the OTA HD transmission, so if you local
station transmits sub-channels (one local station here puts local radar on
its -3 subchannel), you only get the main "-1" channel on the cable HD
channel.

So... you need a HD cable box to receive the cable HD and convert it to
component video (or perhaps DVI) for your HDTV/monitor to display. And it
you want to see the sub-channels, you will probably get them only OTA with
your HDTV's tuner and an antenna.

Eventually, HDTV's will have a cable ready dual mode tuner with a smart card
slot for decrypting cable... but this is still on the horizon for most.

It's confusing, but after a while you get used to it.

But my non-technically adept artist wife still has real trouble watching
stuff on the home theater system.
August 15, 2004 11:36:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Thanks Randy,

Good explanation.

I just called the place where I ordered the TV. Apparently Adelphia
scrambles the HD signal on those stations other than the ones they
advertise and sell as part of their HD package. Somehow that doesn't
seem right.

JW


"Randy Sweeney" <rsweeney1@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:qsidnddP57PiMoLcRVn-vA@comcast.com...
>
> "jw" <jw@unearthly.net> wrote in message
> news:%ONTc.1656$Kf4.1623@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> > We are getting an HDTV with integrated HD tuner.
> > My question is the following:
> > 1. If regular cable carries ABC and ABC is broadcasting the
program
> > in HD why cannot I view it in HD?
> > 2. If cable with the Digital Set Top Box carries ABC and ABC is
> > broadcasting the program in HD why cannot I view it in HD?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > JW
>
> There are lots of copies of the network streams on cable - some
regular and
> some modifed bit streams of the HD.
>
> Cable encodes, modulates, and transmits HD in a different format
from
> over-the-air HD transmissions .
> Cable systems often encrypt the channels too.
> Even normal "digital" cable is encoded differently from HD digital
cable
> channels.
>
> For example... there is a channel on cable for "normal" ABC and a
separate
> one for the ABC-HD.
>
> Also, the cable guys typically only carry the main "-1" HD channel
(and not
> the "-2" & "-3" subchannels) of the OTA HD transmission, so if you
local
> station transmits sub-channels (one local station here puts local
radar on
> its -3 subchannel), you only get the main "-1" channel on the cable
HD
> channel.
>
> So... you need a HD cable box to receive the cable HD and convert it
to
> component video (or perhaps DVI) for your HDTV/monitor to display.
And it
> you want to see the sub-channels, you will probably get them only
OTA with
> your HDTV's tuner and an antenna.
>
> Eventually, HDTV's will have a cable ready dual mode tuner with a
smart card
> slot for decrypting cable... but this is still on the horizon for
most.
>
> It's confusing, but after a while you get used to it.
>
> But my non-technically adept artist wife still has real trouble
watching
> stuff on the home theater system.
>
>
Related resources
Anonymous
August 15, 2004 11:36:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"jw" <jw@unearthly.net> wrote in message
news:EWOTc.1791$Kf4.422@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> Thanks Randy,
>
> Good explanation.
>
> I just called the place where I ordered the TV. Apparently Adelphia
> scrambles the HD signal on those stations other than the ones they
> advertise and sell as part of their HD package. Somehow that doesn't
> seem right.
>
> JW

If it makes you feel any better, John Rigas, the ex-CEO of Adelphia is going
to prison after being convicted for fraud.
August 16, 2004 12:06:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Randy Sweeney" <rsweeney1@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Ktedncd-l4zzI4LcRVn-sA@comcast.com...
>
> "jw" <jw@unearthly.net> wrote in message
> news:EWOTc.1791$Kf4.422@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> > Thanks Randy,
> >
> > Good explanation.
> >
> > I just called the place where I ordered the TV. Apparently
Adelphia
> > scrambles the HD signal on those stations other than the ones they
> > advertise and sell as part of their HD package. Somehow that
doesn't
> > seem right.
> >
> > JW
>
> If it makes you feel any better, John Rigas, the ex-CEO of Adelphia
is going
> to prison after being convicted for fraud.
>
>

Only if it would allow me to watch Monday Night Football in HD.

JW
Anonymous
August 16, 2004 12:06:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"jw" <jw@unearthly.net> wrote in message
news:D nPTc.11289$SC1.8366@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...

> Only if it would allow me to watch Monday Night Football in HD.
>
> JW

Can't you just watch it on OTA HD?
August 16, 2004 1:42:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Randy Sweeney" <rsweeney1@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:E56dnSHOAbRRVYLcRVn-qg@comcast.com...
>
> "jw" <jw@unearthly.net> wrote in message
> news:D nPTc.11289$SC1.8366@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
>
> > Only if it would allow me to watch Monday Night Football in HD.
> >
> > JW
>
> Can't you just watch it on OTA HD?

Tomorrow I'm going to stop by Radio Shack and get an indoor antenna
and give it a try. RS said if it doesn't work bring it back -- no
questions ask. My problem is I live 45 miles from both Baltimore and
Washington in a row of two story brick buildings. I really don't want
to put up a roof top antenna. The only additional channel I'm
interested in is the ABC broadcast of Monday night football. Adelphia
does provide a HD NBC and CBS. Although I'm not sure the HD
versions of the NBC and CBS strictly follow the regular broadcast
schedule. I'm pretty sure that NBC isn't following the regular
broadcast schedule on the Adelphia NBC HD. It's not installed yet but
I can hear the sound on the channel it is assigned to with the regular
digital box and it's not the same. In fact -- its like 24 hours old.
That's a bummer. The CBS channel seems to be in sync.

Any recommendations as far as the indoor antenna. I'm probably going
to go cheap. Googling around seems to indicate that expensive isn't
necessarily better -- at least for UHF. Although I thing the
Baltimore and Washington ABC affiliates are VHF. Or am I showing my
ignorance. Do they broadcast the digital on UHF and analog on VHF.
I'm way out of my element here.

JW
Anonymous
August 16, 2004 1:42:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

An indoor antenna at 45 miles may be a stretch...but worth a try. I had a
Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna and it worked from inside my garage for
the Richmond, VA stations at 55 miles.

The digital stations for all of the Washington locals is on UHF as follows:

ABC - 39
CBS - 34
NBC - 48
FOX - 36
PBS - 27
WB - 51
UPN - 35 (extremely low power)

The Baltimore locals are also on UHF.

With respect to Adelphia, you may get the remaining locals soon. Here in
Fredericksburg, VA I get ABC, CBS, NBC and FOX via Adelphia. Those are the
Washington stations. So, Adelphia does have agreements with the Washington
stations.

All NBC HD channels are on a delay for the Olympics, do to agreements.

Good Luck!!

Brad

"jw" <jw@unearthly.net> wrote in message
news:_MQTc.2944$Kf4.272@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>
> "Randy Sweeney" <rsweeney1@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:E56dnSHOAbRRVYLcRVn-qg@comcast.com...
> >
> > "jw" <jw@unearthly.net> wrote in message
> > news:D nPTc.11289$SC1.8366@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> >
> > > Only if it would allow me to watch Monday Night Football in HD.
> > >
> > > JW
> >
> > Can't you just watch it on OTA HD?
>
> Tomorrow I'm going to stop by Radio Shack and get an indoor antenna
> and give it a try. RS said if it doesn't work bring it back -- no
> questions ask. My problem is I live 45 miles from both Baltimore and
> Washington in a row of two story brick buildings. I really don't want
> to put up a roof top antenna. The only additional channel I'm
> interested in is the ABC broadcast of Monday night football. Adelphia
> does provide a HD NBC and CBS. Although I'm not sure the HD
> versions of the NBC and CBS strictly follow the regular broadcast
> schedule. I'm pretty sure that NBC isn't following the regular
> broadcast schedule on the Adelphia NBC HD. It's not installed yet but
> I can hear the sound on the channel it is assigned to with the regular
> digital box and it's not the same. In fact -- its like 24 hours old.
> That's a bummer. The CBS channel seems to be in sync.
>
> Any recommendations as far as the indoor antenna. I'm probably going
> to go cheap. Googling around seems to indicate that expensive isn't
> necessarily better -- at least for UHF. Although I thing the
> Baltimore and Washington ABC affiliates are VHF. Or am I showing my
> ignorance. Do they broadcast the digital on UHF and analog on VHF.
> I'm way out of my element here.
>
> JW
>
>
Anonymous
August 16, 2004 1:42:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"jw" <jw@unearthly.net> wrote in message
news:_MQTc.2944$Kf4.272@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>
> "Randy Sweeney" <rsweeney1@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:E56dnSHOAbRRVYLcRVn-qg@comcast.com...
> >
> > "jw" <jw@unearthly.net> wrote in message
> > news:D nPTc.11289$SC1.8366@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> >
> > > Only if it would allow me to watch Monday Night Football in HD.
> > >
> > > JW
> >
> > Can't you just watch it on OTA HD?
>
> Tomorrow I'm going to stop by Radio Shack and get an indoor antenna
> and give it a try. RS said if it doesn't work bring it back -- no
> questions ask. My problem is I live 45 miles from both Baltimore and
> Washington in a row of two story brick buildings. I really don't want
> to put up a roof top antenna. The only additional channel I'm
> interested in is the ABC broadcast of Monday night football. Adelphia
> does provide a HD NBC and CBS. Although I'm not sure the HD
> versions of the NBC and CBS strictly follow the regular broadcast
> schedule. I'm pretty sure that NBC isn't following the regular
> broadcast schedule on the Adelphia NBC HD. It's not installed yet but
> I can hear the sound on the channel it is assigned to with the regular
> digital box and it's not the same. In fact -- its like 24 hours old.
> That's a bummer. The CBS channel seems to be in sync.
>
> Any recommendations as far as the indoor antenna. I'm probably going
> to go cheap. Googling around seems to indicate that expensive isn't
> necessarily better -- at least for UHF. Although I thing the
> Baltimore and Washington ABC affiliates are VHF. Or am I showing my
> ignorance. Do they broadcast the digital on UHF and analog on VHF.
> I'm way out of my element here.
>
> JW

Nope... I have cheapo Phillips rabbit ears from Wal-Mart. But then I live in
suburban Richmond.

I have read that the RS double bow-tie antenna is one of the highest gain
indoor antenna you can get.
August 16, 2004 3:02:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Brad Cobb" <brcobb@excites.com> wrote in message
news:WI6dnRFVx45ff4LcRVn-pw@adelphia.com...
> An indoor antenna at 45 miles may be a stretch...but worth a try. I
had a
> Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna and it worked from inside my
garage for
> the Richmond, VA stations at 55 miles.
>
> The digital stations for all of the Washington locals is on UHF as
follows:
>
> ABC - 39
> CBS - 34
> NBC - 48
> FOX - 36
> PBS - 27
> WB - 51
> UPN - 35 (extremely low power)
>
> The Baltimore locals are also on UHF.
>
> With respect to Adelphia, you may get the remaining locals soon.
Here in
> Fredericksburg, VA I get ABC, CBS, NBC and FOX via Adelphia. Those
are the
> Washington stations. So, Adelphia does have agreements with the
Washington
> stations.
>
> All NBC HD channels are on a delay for the Olympics, do to
agreements.
>
> Good Luck!!
>
> Brad

Thanks Brad,

I know tomorrow. I'll post the results.

JW
August 16, 2004 3:03:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Randy Sweeney" <rsweeney1@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:r5-dnQt3VK-wdILcRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
>
> Nope... I have cheapo Phillips rabbit ears from Wal-Mart. But then I
live in
> suburban Richmond.
>
> I have read that the RS double bow-tie antenna is one of the highest
gain
> indoor antenna you can get.
>
>
Thanks Randy,

That is the one I will pick up.
Tomorrow we have a Mitsubishi 65713 coming and Tuesday Adelphia is
installing the HD cable box. By tomorrow evening I should know if I
can get a Baltimore or Washington ABC with the Antenna. I let you know
how things turn out.

JW
August 16, 2004 2:49:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Not a chance of getting UHF on an indoor antenna from 45 miles. Would be a
big chore for an outdoor antenna in an urban environment.

BTW, NBC primetime is not delayed broadcast in HD...but the Olympics on HD
have their own schedule and are NOT a simulcast of the regular signal.


"jw" <jw@unearthly.net> wrote in message
news:qZRTc.13553$SC1.2573@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
>
> "Randy Sweeney" <rsweeney1@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:r5-dnQt3VK-wdILcRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
> >
> > Nope... I have cheapo Phillips rabbit ears from Wal-Mart. But then I
> live in
> > suburban Richmond.
> >
> > I have read that the RS double bow-tie antenna is one of the highest
> gain
> > indoor antenna you can get.
> >
> >
> Thanks Randy,
>
> That is the one I will pick up.
> Tomorrow we have a Mitsubishi 65713 coming and Tuesday Adelphia is
> installing the HD cable box. By tomorrow evening I should know if I
> can get a Baltimore or Washington ABC with the Antenna. I let you know
> how things turn out.
>
> JW
>
>
Anonymous
August 16, 2004 5:50:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

There's virtually NO live coverage of the Olympics on any of the NBC
stations. Watching NBC HD Sunday night I saw the swimming matches from
Saturday.

Bill

"Curmudgeon" <biteme@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jQ3Uc.4682$B53.2894@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
Not a chance of getting UHF on an indoor antenna from 45 miles. Would
be a
big chore for an outdoor antenna in an urban environment.

BTW, NBC primetime is not delayed broadcast in HD...but the Olympics on
HD
have their own schedule and are NOT a simulcast of the regular signal.


"jw" <jw@unearthly.net> wrote in message
news:qZRTc.13553$SC1.2573@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
>
> "Randy Sweeney" <rsweeney1@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:r5-dnQt3VK-wdILcRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
> >
> > Nope... I have cheapo Phillips rabbit ears from Wal-Mart. But then I
> live in
> > suburban Richmond.
> >
> > I have read that the RS double bow-tie antenna is one of the highest
> gain
> > indoor antenna you can get.
> >
> >
> Thanks Randy,
>
> That is the one I will pick up.
> Tomorrow we have a Mitsubishi 65713 coming and Tuesday Adelphia is
> installing the HD cable box. By tomorrow evening I should know if I
> can get a Baltimore or Washington ABC with the Antenna. I let you know
> how things turn out.
>
> JW
>
>
August 17, 2004 7:25:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

It turns out you are probably correct. I got the RS bow tie and it
failed to pick up anything. Which puzzles me somewhat. I can put the
antenna on my old widescreen or a portable tv in the same location as
my new Mitsubishi WS-65713 and get UHF - channel 62 . I don't
understand why the new machine doesn't pick it up. I hooked it up to
the DTV input and did the scan a few times and nothing. Late last
night it added a channel 36 but when I went to that channel there was
nothing there. The local channel 62 is a PBS signal here in town. Go
figure.

Still trying to figure out how to operate this monster so it may be
user error.

JW

"Curmudgeon" <biteme@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jQ3Uc.4682$B53.2894@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> Not a chance of getting UHF on an indoor antenna from 45 miles.
Would be a
> big chore for an outdoor antenna in an urban environment.
>
> BTW, NBC primetime is not delayed broadcast in HD...but the Olympics
on HD
> have their own schedule and are NOT a simulcast of the regular
signal.
>
>
> "jw" <jw@unearthly.net> wrote in message
> news:qZRTc.13553$SC1.2573@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> >
> > "Randy Sweeney" <rsweeney1@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:r5-dnQt3VK-wdILcRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
> > >
> > > Nope... I have cheapo Phillips rabbit ears from Wal-Mart. But
then I
> > live in
> > > suburban Richmond.
> > >
> > > I have read that the RS double bow-tie antenna is one of the
highest
> > gain
> > > indoor antenna you can get.
> > >
> > >
> > Thanks Randy,
> >
> > That is the one I will pick up.
> > Tomorrow we have a Mitsubishi 65713 coming and Tuesday Adelphia is
> > installing the HD cable box. By tomorrow evening I should know if
I
> > can get a Baltimore or Washington ABC with the Antenna. I let you
know
> > how things turn out.
> >
> > JW
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2004 7:25:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"jw" <jw@unearthly.net> wrote in message
news:nrpUc.11436$Kf4.2539@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> It turns out you are probably correct. I got the RS bow tie and it
> failed to pick up anything. Which puzzles me somewhat. I can put the
> antenna on my old widescreen or a portable tv in the same location as
> my new Mitsubishi WS-65713 and get UHF - channel 62 . I don't
> understand why the new machine doesn't pick it up. I hooked it up to
> the DTV input and did the scan a few times and nothing. Late last
> night it added a channel 36 but when I went to that channel there was
> nothing there. The local channel 62 is a PBS signal here in town. Go
> figure.
>
> Still trying to figure out how to operate this monster so it may be
> user error.

The HDTV Primer website says the RS bowtie is tuned low and that you need to
attach some 1" aluminum foil "extenders" to the bow tie ends to increase its
gain at the higher UHF channels.
Anonymous
August 17, 2004 7:25:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Randy Sweeney" <rsweeney1@comcast.net> wrote:

>The HDTV Primer website says the RS bowtie is tuned low and that you need to
>attach some 1" aluminum foil "extenders" to the bow tie ends to increase its
>gain at the higher UHF channels.
>
Hmmm... That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Aren't the higher numbered channels at higher frequency? And since
higher frequency means shorter wavelength, you would need to *shorten*
the active element to tune it to higher frequencies.
Anonymous
August 17, 2004 11:29:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Guy Gordon" <gordon@NOSPAMwhite-crane.com> wrote in message
news:hqf4i0hqu6m6muhi5q0hj96of6g1n5opkc@4ax.com...
> "Randy Sweeney" <rsweeney1@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >The HDTV Primer website says the RS bowtie is tuned low and that you need
to
> >attach some 1" aluminum foil "extenders" to the bow tie ends to increase
its
> >gain at the higher UHF channels.
> >
> Hmmm... That doesn't make a lot of sense.
>
> Aren't the higher numbered channels at higher frequency? And since
> higher frequency means shorter wavelength, you would need to *shorten*
> the active element to tune it to higher frequencies.

hmmm.... you are right
That doesn't make sense

maybe I read it wrong or remembered it wrong - or maybe the website was
wrong

Thanks for picking that up, as an electronic engineer, I should have figured
it out.
Must have had by dumb hat on.
!