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LCDs:At what ms responce time does ghosting start showing up

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March 1, 2007 2:12:51 AM

How fast of responce time do I need to pretty much assure no ghosting in games and movies? Will I notice any difference between a 5ms lcd and a 2 or 3 ms?
March 1, 2007 2:44:15 AM

No, you won't notice any difference between those two. Even my 8ms LCD had no ghosting that I notice, even when gaming.
March 1, 2007 2:51:40 AM

I also have a 8ms LCD, I notice ghosting only if I'm really really looking for it.
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March 1, 2007 3:39:29 AM

Agreed, that in general anything lower than 12ms should be ok. Of course as always, the only judge is your own eyes, hence ask for a demo before you put your dough down on anything. Even better, have displaymate with you on a USB stick and ask for a demo. You will see how it performs, plus you can look for any defects, like dead pixels, or light bleeding from the edges.
March 1, 2007 3:44:39 AM

These are from either trying and taking back to the store or presently own.


25ms actual smears at certain times, terrible for gaming especially FPS.
16ms slight ghosting playable but not the best gaming experience
12ms about the same as the 16ms
8ms no ghosting
6ms definitely no ghosting
March 1, 2007 4:06:31 AM

ok good to know thanks people.
I am still figuring out what I need to know about LCD's before I buy but I think I am going to get a widescreen 19" w/ 5ms.

have several in mind so far, a good 6 or 7 to choose between.

I will be gaming first person shooters mostly. Do I want SXGA+ or WXGA+?? Im not sure what these are/do.
March 1, 2007 4:21:34 AM

Also not that in most(not all) cases the faster the screen the worse the color.....but for games most people do not worry....but if you are going to use photoshop. you may want a 25ms(from a good brand) screen if you are going to play games a 8 and lower...I picked mine after being VERRRRRRY disappointed with a Sony 12ms(that was at least 50 in bad cases) for color and speed. slower will not always be faster...but the overdrive tends to mess with colors....at lease from the screens i have tried....

point in case....View Sonic has a great 2ms screen for games....just not good for photoshop(bad color banding)....If you go retail....see if you can try as many as you can....look at color and response...
March 1, 2007 4:41:43 AM

It may be used ocasionally for watching a DVD but 98% gaming and surfing. It will just be on my desk so I'd never be more than a few feet away.

I am only considering ones with DVI connector. And speakers so the wife has basic noise if she need to listen to something.

I ask about SXGA+ and WXGA+, casue out of the 6 I have narrowed my list to, one of them has SXGA+ as the other 5 have WXGA+. The SXGA+ one is $250 but has a $50 rebate bringing within $20 of all the others which are mostly $180-200.

I hate to do this but Im going to list them and see if I can get comments on how to narrow my choice more. This viewsonic is the only SXGA+ in the bunch.
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E1682... =$200 after $50 rebate
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E1682... =$190

This ASUS is $243 w/ shipping so at $60 more I can probably drop it from the list right off.
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E1682... =$243

Whats the difference of these 3 Hanns-G's?
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E1682... =$180
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E1682... =$194
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E1682... =$233

Aside from the ASUS, these are all nearly identicle in features nad price, so how do I chose the best one? Please advise.


Thanks.
March 1, 2007 6:41:36 AM

i recently had a samsung 940N - 19" @ 8ms @ 1280x024

and now i have a samsung 204B - 20" @ 5ms @ 1600x1200

Now on the 940N i saw very little ghosting in CS and ALOT of ghosting in my favourite game Virtual Pool 3 ... man those red balls on green table just killed the poor panel :)  ... i mean if i hit a ball hard it sometimes showed 1-2 cm of trail behind it .. omg. Other than that i didnt see much ghosting in anything else i played/watched.

On 204B .. i didnt see any ghosting in CS or others i have played/watch. In VP3 .. the trails are still there though considerably less than on the 8ms one, but u can still clearly see the ghosting behind the balls. I think VP3 is the ultimate test for LCD monitors ^^ ... i will soon try a 2ms one but i dont think they will completely disapear.
March 1, 2007 6:56:43 AM

Quote:
How fast of responce time do I need to pretty much assure no ghosting in games and movies? Will I notice any difference between a 5ms lcd and a 2 or 3 ms?


It depends on how your brain processes the images that your eyes see. Everyone is different. Just because one person doesn't see ghosting on 5ms LCD doesn't mean everyone will not see ghosting.

Your best bet is to find a store like Best Buy who has a few PCs loaded with a game and is connected to a PC. Play the game and determine if you see any ghosting.

If the specs of the monitor says 5ms response time (or whatever) and you don't see any ghost effects then it could be possible that you can buy almost any 5ms or faster LCD and not see any ghost.

Just be aware that there is no standard for measuring response time. Actual response times are usually higher than the printed response time. Check out some LCD monitor reviews at Tomhardware.com if you are interested in learning what to look for.
March 2, 2007 10:14:45 PM

Believe it or not, i find it hard to notice ghosting on my lcd monitor that has a 15ms response time.
March 4, 2007 7:44:43 PM

Quote:
Believe it or not, i find it hard to notice ghosting on my lcd monitor that has a 15ms response time.


Unfortunately it seems my eyes and brain is more sensitve than that.

I hate 6-bit LCDs because they are color inaccruate and have tendencies to produce image artifacts. 8-bit LCDs may be more expensive and slower, but I prefer them to 6-bit LCDs.
March 5, 2007 10:36:17 PM

I've got a Dell 2001FP 20" Squarescreen LCD that is both UXGA (1600x1200) and has a 16ms response time.

I sometimes see ghosting when playing games or video, but its not really a problem. The thing is I upgraded from a 19" 25ms display that I originally bought from Dell. The $135 that I paid to upgrade and exchange the LCD back in 04' was well worth it.

It is much more important to me that a display has a common resolution than a quick display time. My monitor's resolution of 1600x1200 is supported by all new games and most older ones. Although the most common lcd resolution is 1280x1024, many games do not support it. An example is Battlefield 1942. That game was the reason that I upgraded the LCD, it looks much better at 1600x1200 than at 1024x768.

I would do some research in compatibility before buying a screen with a resolution of 1440x900 or 1680x1050. I would think that you would be hard pressed to find games that will play on that WXGA+. Then again, if you get a screen with a res of 1920x1200 like the Dell Inspiron 8600 LCD panel that I am typing on now, then you should be able to get wide support in games.

Forget the response time, its all the same, instead focus on resolution and compatibility in the games you want to play.

Also, if you are building a SFF pc with an e6600 and an 8800gts I would be pretty worried about heat.

good luck
March 5, 2007 11:10:28 PM

Quote:
How fast of responce time do I need to pretty much assure no ghosting in games and movies? Will I notice any difference between a 5ms lcd and a 2 or 3 ms?


if it is 8 or 3 you wont notice any difference.
3 is the industries lowest./fastest.
March 5, 2007 11:15:03 PM

Quote:
It may be used ocasionally for watching a DVD but 98% gaming and surfing. It will just be on my desk so I'd never be more than a few feet away.

I am only considering ones with DVI connector. And speakers so the wife has basic noise if she need to listen to something.

I ask about SXGA+ and WXGA+, casue out of the 6 I have narrowed my list to, one of them has SXGA+ as the other 5 have WXGA+. The SXGA+ one is $250 but has a $50 rebate bringing within $20 of all the others which are mostly $180-200.

I hate to do this but Im going to list them and see if I can get comments on how to narrow my choice more. This viewsonic is the only SXGA+ in the bunch.
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E1682... =$200 after $50 rebate
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E1682... =$190

This ASUS is $243 w/ shipping so at $60 more I can probably drop it from the list right off.
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E1682... =$243

Whats the difference of these 3 Hanns-G's?
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E1682... =$180
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E1682... =$194
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E1682... =$233

Aside from the ASUS, these are all nearly identicle in features nad price, so how do I chose the best one? Please advise.


Thanks.



http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1682...

i got this one here and it seems good so far :?:

i looked at the 19 widescreen but most were 14x9.
i wanted 16x10 or higher.
this one is cheap and works/looks good.
March 5, 2007 11:30:30 PM

I would actually have to say that if you do a lot of photoshopping that an lcd is not what you would want. Across the board a CRT will give you better color at least if you get a good model. I don't mind lcd's I use them at work but I by and large prefer CRTs for all tasks ignoring the obvious drawbacks of size weight and heat. A good CRT will always beat and lcd for picture quality and color accuracy.
March 5, 2007 11:34:11 PM

Yea, posted speeds are not everything. I have a Dell 24" 16ms monitor and really don't notice ghosting at all. Maybe a tad of blur in fast montion, but I think that was there on my CRT as well. Read the reviews more than the product specs.
March 6, 2007 12:46:08 AM

Posted speeds may not even be accurate, as it could differ from panel to panel. Also, which specific speed they advertise is not always apparent. The 2407 that I have is a "16 ms" monitor, but that's black to white, it's actually "6ms" grey to grey, which is what most manufacturers use for advertisement.

I've yet to see any ghosting on this monitor, but I've seen quite a bit on a friends 20" "2ms" Samsung. I've also owned a "16ms" Sceptre that had hardly had any, so base what you get on what you can see and read as many reviews as you can.
March 6, 2007 6:33:56 AM

I'm not too worried about native resolution support. I'm looking for something that will provide me with "real estate" for general computer usage. My current monitor is a Planar PX191 19" LCD that has a BTB response time of 25ms. Im guessing GTG response time is somewhere between 16ms - 20ms. It has served me well for three year. Native resolution is 1280x1024.

The 19" CRT for my other PC is dying so I figure it's a good time to start looking for another LCD. I'm currently considering the BenQ FP241W as a possible contender.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1682...

Based on some hardware reviews, it is even better than the Dell 2407WFP LCD monitor, and it definitely has an 8-bit LCD screen. However, I'm waiting for the newer "Z" version which corrects the 1:1 aspect ratio error from outside video sources in the current "W" version. But either version should fit my needs. Too bad I'm not expecting a tax refund to offset the $730 price tag.
March 7, 2007 7:32:29 AM

What is your typical framerate during gaming?

A good way to see what your highest response time should be is to use the calculation 1000xa (a=response time); this should let you find the monitor's threshold before ghosting occurs.

i.e:

25ms response time = 40fps threshold
16ms = 62.5fps
12ms = 83.33fps
8ms = 125fps
6ms = 166.66fps
5ms = 200fps
4ms = 250fps

I use a 16ms monitor and I notice no ghosting. Now I know that my PC is nearly 5 years old but I still don't notice ghosting even when I'm playing games that came out years before my PC, like System Shock 2 or Half-Life.

Don't get too hung up on respone times.
April 6, 2007 6:13:06 AM

Ghosting, streaking and smearing issues can be caused by many things, least of which would be response time with any recent monitor. From the monitor side, it could be a crosstalk issue with the panel itself. It has to do with the rise/fall times with the monitor's internal signals. You can't do anything about this yourself as it's a design issue. You can use DisplayMate MM (multi-media) version ghosting and streaking patterns to see this if design is not optimized. It's a give and take scenario. The monitor/panel supplier may go for sharper focus clarity with VGA input and as a result they've got a minor ghosting issue.
Best things to look for when comparing monitors visually is this:
1) Black level - You will see a difference between panels here. Higher black levels = lower CR - contrast ratio.
Don't go by advertised spec. A monitor supplier will have at least two different panels qualified for each model and some monitor companies may have as many as 5 suppliers for one model if volumes are high. That's 5 suppliers at 2 panels per supplier. It's darn near impossible to get all of them to look the same.
And if you're buying retail (Best Buy, etc.) then it's a crap shoot because these "Consumer" monitors are not aligned as tightly as "Commercial" grade versions. Reason is that commercial companies routinely line up competitor monitors side-by-side and also line up same "Like" monitors to compare production consistency, uniformity, etc, etc.
2) Look at Red full field (full screen) pattern to compare color gamut issues. Good panels (Samsung, CPT) will have a deeper red than el cheapo crap panels like SVA and HST - Hannstar.
3) Look at full field light/dark gray pattern to check for Mura and light leakage issues. Light Leakage will appear around edges of panel, pretty self explanatory. There are many types of Mura issues these days. These may appear as dark or light spots around corners or vertical bands in the display.
4) Play with OSD color controls. Default color settings will typically be 6500K for any new monitor that is Vista certified because it's a MS requirement. Not all panels have native color temp of 6500K so that's not their best 'Look'. Most suppliers will have the panel native color temp set to OSD 'Custom Color' or 'User Color' depending on monitor mfr.

Ok, I'm rambling now...
Back to ghosting issue.
DVI is the way to go, but you can still have ghosting issues...but much less.
If you're using a VGA cable longer than 6ft. you can run into reflections, etc. that will appear as ghosting.
If using VGA, make sure your Clock and Phase settings are optimized. This is VERY critical because if not set correctly you will see focus clarity issues, ghosting, smearing, jitter issues. Be sure to use a 1on/1off type pattern when performing the AUTO adjust function (sets clock and phase). It won't optimize correctly on normal Windows desktop. Most monitor companies should have a utility for this function (HP, CPQ, Dell, Samsung).
From the system side, Up solution cards (plug-in) will have cleaner VGA signals than down solution (motherboard). Notebooks are the absolute worst. Mainly due to added filtering to output so that mfr can pass EMI testing. The filtering rounds off the square waves to almost sine waves. Hard for monitor to detect start and stop times of sync signals so makes it harder for them to Auto adjust. You may also see softer focus if signals are really degraded. Same thing is seen when running very high resolutions on those limited memory video cards. Bandwidth issue.
That's another 10 pages of text so will leave that one alone.
oh, one more thing.
For 99% of LCD monitors, 60Hz modes will look better than 75+Hz modes. Slower refresh rates of video cards = cleaner output signals = cleaner video. Monitor internal circuitry converts anything higher than 60Hz down to 60Hz anyway. That's the panel native rate.
cheers.
April 6, 2007 6:46:47 AM

Ghosting starts to show up around 12ms.At 8ms or lower,you should have no ghosting at all.Goodluck.

Dahak

AMD X2-4400+@2.6 TOLEDO
EVGA NF4 SLI MB
2X EVGA 7950GT KO IN SLI
4X 512MB CRUCIAL BALLISTIX DDR500
WD300GIG HD/SAMSUNG 250GIG HD
ACER 22IN WIDESCREEN LCD 1600X1200
THERMALTAKE TOUGHPOWER 850WATT PSU
COOLERMASTER MINI R120
3DMARK05 13,471
April 6, 2007 5:07:55 PM

Quote:
Ghosting starts to show up around 12ms.At 8ms or lower,you should have no ghosting at all.Goodluck.

Dahak

AMD X2-4400+@2.6 TOLEDO
EVGA NF4 SLI MB
2X EVGA 7950GT KO IN SLI
4X 512MB CRUCIAL BALLISTIX DDR500
WD300GIG HD/SAMSUNG 250GIG HD
ACER 22IN WIDESCREEN LCD 1600X1200
THERMALTAKE TOUGHPOWER 850WATT PSU
COOLERMASTER MINI R120
3DMARK05 13,471


I dont understand then. If there is no ghosting at 8ms, then why do we have all of these panels rated at 2ms, 3ms, 4ms, 5ms, 7ms??

Does the rating GTG mean something else than true response time? I heard someone say that 5ms GTG is equal to 20ms true response time. Was he talking out of his@$$ or telling the truth?
April 6, 2007 5:55:09 PM

Quote:

I dont understand then. If there is no ghosting at 8ms, then why do we have all of these panels rated at 2ms, 3ms, 4ms, 5ms, 7ms??

Does the rating GTG mean something else than true response time? I heard someone say that 5ms GTG is equal to 20ms true response time. Was he talking out of his@$$ or telling the truth?


Ghosting is based on how the brain process the images your eyes see. Everyone is different so there could be people who can see ghosting on an LCD with 8ms response time and other cannot. I recall watching some play a FPS game on one of those "4ms" response time LCD in Best Buy and I definitely noticed the ghosting. I asked the player if he noticed the ghosting and he said "What ghosting?" Then again, he was probably too busy playing to notice.

The GTG response times are marketing ploys. They represent how the monitor can perform under theortical ideal conditions. There is no standard for measuring response times. Actual response times could peak as high as 5x the "stated" response time or more for monitors with "2ms".

Response times is not always constant. It can vary depending on what is being displayed. Therefore, it is definitely possible a "5ms" LCD will be as slow as 25ms under certain circumstances.
April 11, 2007 2:05:24 AM

GTG = Grey To Grey.
April 11, 2007 2:37:06 AM

Quote:
GTG = Grey To Grey.


Like I said GTG response times are mostly marketing ploys since there is no standard for measuring response times and they are based on the best possible situation.
April 11, 2007 2:53:41 AM

For LCD 12ms and lower is better.
April 11, 2007 3:06:47 AM

Quote:
For LCD 12ms and lower is better.


As I remember, you have a sony. What response time do you have, and how is that reflective coating? Are there any other lcds available now with that kind of glossy coating?
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