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"Fanboys"? ...Help end the poisonous atmosphere

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March 3, 2007 1:34:45 AM

A forum is a place with diverse people with diverse opinions of course, and many will disagree about things.

When someone disagrees, they can be rational and use a specific argument based on logic and/or numbers. Example -- I disagree that C2duos are always the best mid-range choice because not everyone wants to overclock, and AMD has a good upgrade path for AM2, and also it would be great for AMD to thrive so that there will be more than one premeir cpu company. These are examples of logical reasons which can be discussed, etc.

Or someone who disagrees with a post might might instead resort to personal characterizations like "idiot", "liar", "BS", "Fanboy", etc.

Over and over you see the calmest most objective posts written with no personal characterizations. At the other extreme we see plenty of personal attacks.

There are a wide variety of personal attacks. There are the obvious name calling like you remember from grade school, but also the slightly more grown up version that's supposed to characterize someone's personality regarding their choices, and various smears, scarecrows, etc.,etc.

Fanboi is such an obvious one.

It's a label.

It's a personal characterization.

It's not an argument or an idea or a string of logic.

It's not very interesting, but it does often end the calm logic in a discussion thread, and sometimes obscures interesting points and ideas (unless you just ignore those posters! :-).

If someone likes Intel chips exclusively, or AMD chips, that's their problem, and their right.

It's not a personality flaw.

Finally, I'd like to point out the obvious misconception:

The problem with the idea of the "fanboi" is that his "BS" is supposed to mislead newbies.

Right?

Well, that would make sense if the newbie would make a decision about building a $1000 computer based on reading only 1 or 2 posts in a forum!

How likely is that?

It would make sense if people were not able to think for themselves, to evaluate and compare ideas for themselves.

In short the "fanboi" idea presumes newbies are stupid people.

People who choose to build their own computer aren't stupid people, regardless that it's their first build.

It would be great if we could stop calling each other names like kids on a playground.
March 3, 2007 1:49:01 AM

you sound like a Fanboi
March 3, 2007 1:54:36 AM

I'm certainly an AMD fan!

Catch is, although I have things about Intel that bother me, truth is I'm an Intel fan also!

And IBM. I'm am absolutely totally an IBM fan!

totally!

Nvidia is great to.

I love em!

I'm certainly an Nvidia fan.

guess you are right. I really am a fan of chip companies in general, and honestly, I never met one I didn't like yet.

In fact, if it's what it takes to help end this poisonous atmosphere, let everyone know that I'm one of the ultimate FANBOYS!!
Related resources
March 3, 2007 1:59:14 AM

Quote:
you sound like a Fanboi


You are absolutely right!!

I've updated my profile.

thanks!
March 3, 2007 2:04:34 AM

I'd encourage Jack and all the most distinguished residents here to add FANBOY to their signature to try to help dispell this poisonous atmosphere of personal attacks on the forum.
March 3, 2007 2:22:06 AM

Quote:
END THE FLAME WARS

I am all for it :wink:


yeah. It's like we are facing a kind of persistent fire, and it's hard to put out.

We need a lot of water!
March 3, 2007 2:23:40 AM

Quote:
guess you are right. I really am a fan of chip companies in general, and honestly, I never met one I didn't like yet.


Does that include VIA, with their C3 and C7 CPUs?!!! :)  :)  :) 


Jokes aside, you are actually totally right, and I am not that different from you:

I like AMD and Intel.
I like Coke and Pepsi.
I like Playstation and Nintendo.
I like nVidia and ATI.
I like wine and whiskey.
I like Canon and Sony.
I like Windows and Suse Linux and Solaris.
I like Java and Delphi.
I like ASP and PHP.
I like SQL Server and Oracle.

I am a fan of all the development these companies have brought to us. They - on one level or another - certainly deserve my admiration, for their contribution they've made to our lives.

Just today I also posted a topic about the very same issue:
http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/tiresome-ftopic...

I do not declare myself a fanboy of this or that company. Each one makes things I admire and desire.

So, for those who need to label people, this is the label that fits me:
technology fanboy

Take care!

thanks :) 

I like what you say. It's how I see it too.
March 3, 2007 2:26:04 AM

Quote:
END THE FLAME WARS

I am all for it :wink:


WHERE ARE THE FIREFIGHTERS WHEN YOU NEED 'em!
screw GIULIANI!, CALL the national guard! :o 
March 3, 2007 2:49:00 AM

A fanboi, in my opinion, is anyone that takes a stance on any subject that is based on conjecture and supposition, then when faced with various technical articles that refute said subjective claims backs up their spurious claims with more claims... And no facts. THAT's a fanboi.

My 2p.
March 3, 2007 3:07:50 AM

Quote:
A fanboi, in my opinion, is anyone that takes a stance on any subject that is based on conjecture and supposition, then when faced with various technical articles that refute said subjective claims backs up their spurious claims with more claims... And no facts. THAT's a fanboi.

My 2p.


While I like that that is a narrow precise definition, there are two problems it causes in spite of the good concept.

The first problem is the term becomes an insult, and then it's a flame war, etc., etc.

The second problem is it gets used indiscriminately, of course, and you can't prevent that.

That second problem is inherent in it being a label. Any label has the problem that it obscures and makes individuals out to be a type of simplification.

Example: I could recomend an e4300 to one person, and an hour or day later recommend an X2 5200 to another person and get called an "AMD fanboi".

This happens, and it is a good example of why even a narrow definition isn't going to be good enough.
March 3, 2007 3:23:56 AM

Hmm... Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that someone proposes that they know the way to maximize anyone's system upgrade. And that way is to use two 10k rpm drives in raid 0.

Now let's suppose that a gaggle of posters, some very knowledgeable, post along the lines of 'but there are many things that cost less and provide more benefit', but the OP keeps coming back with the same statement... So then are introduced a bunch of benchmarks that show that per dollar, there are many places to get a bigger bang for one's buck. The post finally dies a belated death, only to be started again under a new title a few days later.

THAT's a fanboi.
March 3, 2007 3:35:23 AM

If someone has no brand preference, what's the problem recommending the faster product? To me it sounds like you're saying that you're tired of having people recommending Core 2 instead of X2. :?
March 3, 2007 3:40:21 AM

It's more effective IMO just to use a simple reply like "raptors in raid 0 is a case of dimishing return for most uses", and just repeat that instead. More effective because it has an idea.

Ideas are more convincing.
March 3, 2007 3:46:54 AM

Quote:
If someone has no brand preference, what's the problem recommending the faster product? To me it sounds like you're saying that you're tired of having people recommending Core 2 instead of X2. :?


I'm impressed with the e4300 and it's the best solution for many types of situations. What bothers me is when there is a situation where it isn't the best solution, like someone who does not want to overclock and wants midrange performance and wants to be able to have a nice upgrade path, and they get recommended to overclock an e4300 anyway, because it's such a good thing, regardless of where that new builder is coming from in preferences, but begrudgingly they're finally told the e6400 is better than the X2 5200 (true in some ways, but not price/performance wise, or upgrade wise IMO). I'd rather tell them a more complete picture, instead of brand loyalty to Intel!
March 3, 2007 4:02:46 AM

At stock the E6400 would be more than competitive with the X2 5200+ performance wise, and it uses less energy as well. We get it, you're an AMD fanboy; please stop kidding yourself. :wink:
March 3, 2007 4:14:17 AM

I stand corrected. All my engineering life, I thought that facts, system design, etc., followed by rigorous testing and benchmarking were the end result of an 'idea'. Now I find out that the 'idea' itself is enough. Live and learn.

I guess I'll have to get some raptors for my next cheap build... After all your 'idea' proves that all the benchmarks in the world are BS, right? Too bad that means that I have to go with less memory, less quality GPU, etc., to cover the cost... And a higher cost MB to get that RAID SATA... So this 'idea' costs me money? What a load of shite.

You sir, are pure and simple a fanboi. You have taken the term to a new level, but you are a fanboi in my 'narrow' definition of the term.
March 3, 2007 4:34:58 AM

Wow two threads same subject :)  What are the odds? :p 
March 3, 2007 4:56:35 AM

OK, stop visiting the forum. Your help will be highly appreciated.
March 3, 2007 5:08:55 AM

Quote:
Example -- I disagree that C2duos are always the best mid-range choice because not everyone wants to overclock, and AMD has a good upgrade path for AM2, and also it would be great for AMD to thrive so that there will be more than one premeir cpu company. These are examples of logical reasons which can be discussed, etc.
See, that's exactly the reason that you get bombarded. AMD's welfare has nothing...i repeat nothing to do with the performance/price of their processor. So, this post clearly shows your agenda... To keep AMD sales up...not to recommend the best PROCESSOR for the job. The only difference between you, and the guys that come in and say..."Intel sucks donkey balls", or "AMD blows"....is that you are sneaky about it. But...understand that most of the sensible posters in here can see through your thinly-veiled prejudice, which...(judging by the frequency of these kind of threads that you create), is not getting you the results you crave.
March 3, 2007 5:36:39 AM

Quote:
Example -- I disagree that C2duos are always the best mid-range choice because not everyone wants to overclock, and AMD has a good upgrade path for AM2, and also it would be great for AMD to thrive so that there will be more than one premeir cpu company. These are examples of logical reasons which can be discussed, etc.
See, that's exactly the reason that you get bombarded. AMD's welfare has nothing...i repeat nothing to do with the performance/price of their processor. So, this post clearly shows your agenda... To keep AMD sales up...not to recommend the best PROCESSOR for the job. The only difference between you, and the guys that come in and say..."Intel sucks donkey balls", or "AMD blows"....is that you are sneaky about it. But...understand that most of the sensible posters in here can see through your thinly-veiled prejudice, which...(judging by the frequency of these kind of threads that you create), is not getting you the results you crave.

I must agree.

Hey... Do you think fanboi rehab facilities exist? That could be a potential money making venture. :lol: 

Honestly... I don't care for fanboi posts -- some are almost laughable. But, I also don't care for some of the more abhorable personal attacks that may follow them.
a b à CPUs
March 3, 2007 5:49:55 AM

I'm a fanboy of TNA and beer! WOO HOO!!!

Seriously, fanboyism is all a pissing contest which I don't care about. I say this post should be deleted for it will only lead to a flame war.

END THE FLAME WARS!
March 3, 2007 5:59:35 AM

'I went to look for my insanity. Thought I wouldn't miss it, but I learned an important lesson. Sanity truly indeed f'ng blows! So, I'll be in my reality for awhile. Feel free to contact and take me back to your reality called Earth.'

'Re: "Fanboys"? ...Help end the poisonous atmosphere'

Helps to remember, once in a while, that the person that started this topic is one of the stirrers that causes flamewars.
a b à CPUs
March 3, 2007 6:01:03 AM

Good point. Either way, they're getting old.
March 3, 2007 6:23:28 AM

Love your Atma weapon avatar. FF3 FTW
a b à CPUs
March 3, 2007 7:00:57 AM

We got old school Squaresoft avatars, Valtiel. Chrono Trigger FTW as well!
March 3, 2007 11:43:03 AM

Quote:
I stand corrected. All my engineering life, I thought that facts, system design, etc., followed by rigorous testing and benchmarking were the end result of an 'idea'. Now I find out that the 'idea' itself is enough. Live and learn.

I guess I'll have to get some raptors for my next cheap build... After all your 'idea' proves that all the benchmarks in the world are BS, right? Too bad that means that I have to go with less memory, less quality GPU, etc., to cover the cost... And a higher cost MB to get that RAID SATA... So this 'idea' costs me money? What a load of shite.

You sir, are pure and simple a fanboi. You have taken the term to a new level, but you are a fanboi in my 'narrow' definition of the term.


This is the trick know as a "Strawman"

Old one.....you substitue a representation of the other person's idea which seems like it but is quite different, in order to be able to knock it down. It's like a strawman, in that it's easy to knock down.

Myself, if I see someone use a Strawman or other smear twice, those would be the last posts of theirs that I read.

Just a matter of quality control for me. I'm no longer 20 yrs old.
March 3, 2007 11:52:09 AM

Quote:
'I went to look for my insanity. Thought I wouldn't miss it, but I learned an important lesson. Sanity truly indeed f'ng blows! So, I'll be in my reality for awhile. Feel free to contact and take me back to your reality called Earth.'

'Re: "Fanboys"? ...Help end the poisonous atmosphere'

Helps to remember, once in a while, that the person that started this topic is one of the stirrers that causes flamewars.


This is the old trick known as a "smear"

You assert some negative about someone or repeat a smear someone else did, and make it something that would be very time consuming and difficult to disprove, and rely on the odds in your favor to make the lie stick.

That's 2 forms of personal attack.

I won't read any more posts from croc.

Simply because my time is valuable, and you can win an argument with someone who uses personal attacks.
March 3, 2007 11:54:36 AM

Quote:
Example -- I disagree that C2duos are always the best mid-range choice because not everyone wants to overclock, and AMD has a good upgrade path for AM2, and also it would be great for AMD to thrive so that there will be more than one premeir cpu company. These are examples of logical reasons which can be discussed, etc.
See, that's exactly the reason that you get bombarded. AMD's welfare has nothing...i repeat nothing to do with the performance/price of their processor. So, this post clearly shows your agenda... To keep AMD sales up...not to recommend the best PROCESSOR for the job. The only difference between you, and the guys that come in and say..."Intel sucks donkey balls", or "AMD blows"....is that you are sneaky about it. But...understand that most of the sensible posters in here can see through your thinly-veiled prejudice, which...(judging by the frequency of these kind of threads that you create), is not getting you the results you crave.

See post just above. Your personal characterization "sneaky" is a personal attack.

Re the price/performance ratio of the AM2 X2 5200, read up on it for yourself.

Someone here already did the heavy lifting for you.

"CPU price/performance graph"
March 3, 2007 12:18:24 PM

halbhh, this is a great post!! I wish the forums here were a place to talk tech and computers. Not a place where grade school level put downs are the norm. I have said this before but where are the moderators here?? And if the people who run these boards need proof that they are out of control; look no further than the responses to this thread.
March 3, 2007 12:21:12 PM

It would be helpful to catalog all the forms of personal attack, so that we can quickly and efficiently recognize when someone is trying to obscure logical points with all sorts of forms of attacks (flames, subtle or obvious).

First the objective is to prevent logical discussion by personal attack, so one of the ways it's done is repetative assertions of negative personal discriptions.

1. Repetative assertion of any of the below. The idea is to repeat an smear, etc., often enough in hope it will be believed.

2. Name calling. All the labels of every sort. "Fanboy", "Troll", etc., These are a poor substitute for a logical argument. But their real point is to stop and prevent a logical argument from winning or presenting points or ideas.

3. Smears. Perhaps the most insidious. You assert something over and over that is hard to disprove, and usually subjective. Example: Fanboy is a combination of name calling and a smear both, since it implies subjectively that regardless of any objective measure (like price/performance at base, etc., etc.) that anything someone says is invalid or a trick. The best way for us to combat a smear is to identify it as such. All smears are assertions of personal characteristics.

4. Strawman is a common trick in argument. You intentionally substitute a mis-representation of the other person's point or idea that is ludicrous or just in error, and easy to knock down. It's a form of lie. The lie is the mis-representation.

5. Lifting quotes out of context in order to mis-represent. When someone wants to prove a characterization, they sometimes need to use quotes out of context, since the context often would remove the usefulness of a quote. Don't trust isolated quotes used for characterization.

---------------------

These are the most common ones I've seen here, and if anyone can think of another one, please let me know, and I'll add it to the list.
March 3, 2007 12:24:43 PM

Quote:
halbhh, this is a great post!! I wish the forums here were a place to talk tech and computers. Not a place where grade school level put downs are the norm. I have said this before but where are the moderators here?? And if the people who run these boards need proof that they are out of control; look no further than the responses to this thread.


I PMed the moderator after turpit continued using the personal attack fanboy on me, but the moderator responded in a way that indicated he thinks it is normal, which doesn't bode well for this forum.

If a forum becomes overwhelmed by personal attacks, then the interesting posters leave for greener pastures.
March 3, 2007 12:37:24 PM

halbhh I am laughing at you and not with you.

This is a nice fanboy support thread. Kinda like watching a gay rights march. The theme may be "we are normal so accept us" until you look at the perverts in the parade go by throwing condoms off the float to the crowd while holding the sign "I'm not a breeder".

If you don't want to be called a fanboy, don't be a fanboy. I have no problem suggesting an AMD or Intel solution to someone with a question. It is merely one component of a computer. Just let them know the facts about each.

ie You could go with an X2 3800 for $100 or get an X6300 for $170. X6300 has much better performance and OCs to perform like something in the $400-$600 range. You don't pay as much of a performance penalty with the X6300 if you use cheaper Ram. With the X2 system will be the cheaper build overall and you could sink the $70 into a much better Graphics card that will enable you to play higher end games if your budget is really tight. Most games now aren't CPU dependant and I would consider a $100 CPU system that will play anything comming out in 2007 a good throw away option (use it a year, upgrade again with a $100-$150 CPU that is selling for $600 right now).

Just depends on WTF the Builder wants. If I was tight for money now I would go with the AMD so I could afford a better Video card. IF $70 didn't make or break me I would go for the X6300 because it will be cheaper in the long run due to me being an OCer.

Mainly the point is that I don't benifit either way by which processor they choose. So why would I care, just pass along your knowledge (or lack of) on the subject and don't argue stupid points with other posters. Just sit back and call them fanboys when they cry because AMD or Intel was considered the better solution.
March 3, 2007 12:45:01 PM

If you think I recommend anything for anything other than a logical reason which I present, then you have believed a smear.

Secondhand information, like smears, is not reliable.
March 3, 2007 12:50:32 PM

Quote:

This is a nice fanboy support thread. Kinda like watching a gay rights march.


See, you were almost making sense until the bigotry came out. IMO, it invalidates everything that follows. I'm not gay, but I am offended.
March 3, 2007 1:20:48 PM

Quote:
you sound like a Fanboi


You are absolutely right!!

I've updated my profile.

thanks!



Quote:
I PMed the moderator after turpit continued using the personal attack fanboy on me


You have stated more than once in this wasteland of a thread, that you are a fanboi. So why pm the mods for something that you call yourself. :roll:
March 3, 2007 1:23:56 PM

I don't respond to personal attacks anymore, or strawman posts. It's the best response I can think of.
March 3, 2007 1:31:21 PM

Quote:
I'm a fanboy of TNA and beer! WOO HOO!!!

Seriously, fanboyism is all a pissing contest which I don't care about. I say this post should be deleted for it will only lead to a flame war.

END THE FLAME WARS!


If you can think of something that would really end flame wars then seriously, we'd all be in your debt. I like you saying it's a pissing contest, and that might work for some kinds of flames (to reduce them). Good idea.

Deleting this thread would be an interesting decision, but it would not stop flames in the forum, which are self-perpetuating, and don't need a discussion of flames to continue.
March 3, 2007 3:04:42 PM

Quote:
I'm a fanboy of TNA and beer! WOO HOO!!!

Seriously, fanboyism is all a pissing contest which I don't care about. I say this post should be deleted for it will only lead to a flame war.

END THE FLAME WARS!


If you can think of something that would really end flame wars then seriously, we'd all be in your debt. I like you saying it's a pissing contest, and that might work for some kinds of flames (to reduce them). Good idea.

Deleting this thread would be an interesting decision, but it would not stop flames in the forum, which are self-perpetuating, and don't need a discussion of flames to continue.
maybe if you could stop repliying to every post?
March 3, 2007 4:00:42 PM

I'd like to end the flame wars. But when you have fanboys on either side twisting and even making up their own facts, it's hard not to want to smack them.
March 3, 2007 4:01:23 PM

I think it would help in general if people asked each other to clarify their points rather than jump down their throats. In general, it would be nicer if people could genuinely seek to aid further understanding rather than serve their own ego...

Fanboyism is simply a case in point of the more general problem: lots of people aren't here to learn anything, but to show off. I think people need to take themselves less seriously, to be honest.
March 3, 2007 4:08:27 PM

Quote:

This is a nice fanboy support thread. Kinda like watching a gay rights march. The theme may be "we are normal so accept us" until you look at the perverts in the parade go by throwing condoms off the float to the crowd while holding the sign "I'm not a breeder".


Here's a case in point. I'd like you to clarify this, please.
March 3, 2007 4:15:34 PM

Quote:

This is a nice fanboy support thread. Kinda like watching a gay rights march.


See, you were almost making sense until the bigotry came out. IMO, it invalidates everything that follows. I'm not gay, but I am offended.

While not intending to defend or validate the remark that offends you, I just have to say that the people who REALLY offend me in society are those who take offense at things. If only we could remove them from society like they try to remove the speech and other things that offend them, I'd be oh so happy.

Death to PC! (political correctness, not personal computer ;) )
March 3, 2007 4:22:21 PM

Well, there are lots of people who get uppety miles before they've even attempted to understand your point, but you've got to remember that there are occasions where you should be offended. If you heard someone in all seriousness make a racial slur on this forum, I hope you wouldn't just let it go by.

But, as always, the best way to deal with any of these situations is to ask people for clarification, find out if there is any bigotry involved, and then hope they will have the patience to stick around whilst you break down their blind prejudice.

The problem with fanboys, bigots, idiots alike is that they don't hang around to hear why they're wrong, and have to find reasons to dismiss the _person_ who disagrees with them in advance.
March 3, 2007 5:11:51 PM

Quote:

This is a nice fanboy support thread. Kinda like watching a gay rights march. The theme may be "we are normal so accept us" until you look at the perverts in the parade go by throwing condoms off the float to the crowd while holding the sign "I'm not a breeder".


Here's a case in point. I'd like you to clarify this, please.

The start of the thread reminded me of a gay rights parade. The OP is a fanboy asking to not be ridiculed for being a fanboy. Then as the thread continues you see just why people ridicule fanboys.

Soooo, it reminded me of a gay rights parade. You should come to Oregon and watch one. Boys kissing boys on floats, condoms being thrown around, nude bycyclists, nude body paint people....... And they are just looking to be treated like everyone else and can't seem to understand why they are the butts of societies jokes (no pun intended).

It was a parallel I drew, sorry if offended you. Not. I posted a real life observation and there is no personal judgement in it by me. Just you judging me for stating a parallel about a life experience I have wittnessed.

You sir have a problem if you are offended by reality. :roll:
March 3, 2007 5:13:43 PM

1) I like the "poisonous atmosphere" around here. Like the gaseous bar in KotOR2, it gives it a certain edge. After all, discussing PC components could do with a bit of extra spice now and then. I would replace "poisonous" with "healthily competitive", but each to his own.

2)
Quote:
I don't respond to personal attacks anymore, or strawman posts. It's the best response I can think of.


Only took you numerous replies to each and every "assault" and quasi-assault on your person to figure that out. I would say "Way to go, Sherlock" but you might take it the wrong way and report me :roll:.

3) Intense discussion and criticism is healthy. Or, we could make this place like South Africa, where anybody who criticizes governmental policies (like a shower curing AIDS) is branded a racist (if white) or a coconut (means "black on outside, white inside"). Personally, I'd rather have THG's flaming to politically correct censoring of forthright opinions.

4) The whole point of this thread, i.e. *how* to stop flaming/"fanboy" tagging, doesn't consider the wider point of whether they *should* be stopped. I, for one, say keep them, and learn what "free speech" means.
March 3, 2007 5:20:04 PM

Quote:
The start of the thread reminded me of a gay rights parade. The OP is a fanboy asking to not be ridiculed for being a fanboy. Then as the thread continues you see just why people ridicule fanboys.

Soooo, it reminded me of a gay rights parade. You should come to Oregon and watch one. Boys kissing boys on floats, condoms being thrown around, nude bycyclists, nude body paint people....... And they are just looking to be treated like everyone else and can't seem to understand why they are the butts of societies jokes (no pun intended).

It was a parallel I drew, sorry if offended you. Not. I posted a real life observation and there is no personal judgement in it by me. Just you judging me for stating a parallel about a life experience I have wittnessed.

You sir have a problem if you are offended by reality. :roll:


Great personal observation and comparison! :) 
March 3, 2007 5:41:59 PM

Dude. Read your own sentences again:

"Boys kissing boys on floats, condoms being thrown around, nude bycyclists, nude body paint people....... And they are just looking to be treated like everyone else and can't seem to understand why they are the butts of societies jokes (no pun intended)."

and...

"I posted a real life observation and there is no personal judgement in it by me."

The clear implication of your first point is that society is right to make fun of this behaviour. That is a personal judgement, not 'reality'!

Not everyone sees it in that way. A lot of people think about sexuality as something to be celebrated, and see such parades as a chance to express themeslves.

Look, I'm not offended by what you've said, but I think you should think about things a bit more and question why it really upsets you to watch it. Do you get as upset if you see a Spring Break video? If not, why not? What is it about male-male sexuality that upsets you? It's time to question some of these taboos.
!