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Ash and Misty: Together again...

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Anonymous
September 25, 2004 3:22:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

....and nothing has really changed between them. :-) Unless there's going to
be some big revelation in part 2, it looks like the "girl" Ash was pining
away for in "Pokemon: Jirachi" is Latias, and not Misty! I suppose there's
the girl he and Brock had a brief crush on in "The School of Hard Knocks",
but that was before they decided to write Ash as a lunkhead when it comes to
romance. And then there's Melody from "Pokemon 2000", but Ash never seemed
to show an interest in her. And of course there's Bayleaf, but that
relationship is definitely one-way, and it seems to annoy Ash more than make
him happy.

Anyone else I forget?

----
David Pochron dpoch@ticon.net

More about : ash misty

Anonymous
September 25, 2004 8:32:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

"David Pochron" <dpoch@ticon.net> wrote in message news:<41559b6c$0$71584$18feec2b@news.ticon.net>...
> ...and nothing has really changed between them. :-) Unless there's going to
> be some big revelation in part 2, it looks like the "girl" Ash was pining
> away for in "Pokemon: Jirachi" is Latias, and not Misty! I suppose there's
> the girl he and Brock had a brief crush on in "The School of Hard Knocks",
> but that was before they decided to write Ash as a lunkhead when it comes to
> romance. And then there's Melody from "Pokemon 2000", but Ash never seemed
> to show an interest in her. And of course there's Bayleaf, but that
> relationship is definitely one-way, and it seems to annoy Ash more than make
> him happy.
>
> Anyone else I forget?
>

I think you missed the point of his conversation in 'Wish-Maker'. Ash
was talking about being separated from a friend (Misty is definitely a
friend). No romantic undertones there.

Then again, I could be wrong.
Anonymous
September 26, 2004 2:13:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

"David Pochron" <dpoch@ticon.net> wrote in message
news:41559b6c$0$71584$18feec2b@news.ticon.net...
> ...and nothing has really changed between them. :-) Unless there's going
to
> be some big revelation in part 2, it looks like the "girl" Ash was pining
> away for in "Pokemon: Jirachi" is Latias, and not Misty! I suppose
there's
> the girl he and Brock had a brief crush on in "The School of Hard Knocks",
> but that was before they decided to write Ash as a lunkhead when it comes
to
> romance. And then there's Melody from "Pokemon 2000", but Ash never
seemed
> to show an interest in her. And of course there's Bayleaf, but that
> relationship is definitely one-way, and it seems to annoy Ash more than
make
> him happy.
>
> Anyone else I forget?
>
> ----
> David Pochron dpoch@ticon.net
>
>

The next episode will be great (assuming they only aired part 1 today),
since

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
N
A
N
S
U


Kasumi uses her Gyarados versus the villains, and nobody in America will
know where the hell it came from (she caught it at her own gym when she went
back to run it; housou special #2). Now whilst I can understand there being
no desire to translate the poopy housou episodes like Nanako (the
baseball-crazy girl) and her adventure with a scaredy Lizardon, some of them
are actually important to the main story, as will be revealed next week.

....ok, 1 and 2 are the only ones important to the main story; all the others
are either TR backstory, some situation involving the other Rocket couple
(Yamato and Kosanji*.... Cassidy and Botch?) or stories that should never
happen (the baseball one above). Buuut.... some of them are good, and I'm
sure the US audience would appreciate them. Seeing Satoshi's old Pokemon at
Professor Ohkido's ranch is cool.

*kosaburo daaaaa....
Related resources
Anonymous
September 26, 2004 2:13:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

"Jedah And Sonans" <hayama_akito@hotmail.com.betsuni> wrote in message
news:cj4qhu$p10$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> Buuut.... some of them are good, and I'm
> sure the US audience would appreciate them. Seeing Satoshi's old Pokemon at
> Professor Ohkido's ranch is cool.

Yeah! I was floored when I finally took a look at the latest episode guide
and noticed how many specials are not getting translated outside of Japan. I
really want to see the upcoming one with Meowth as a detective. :-)

----
David Pochron dpoch@ticon.net
Anonymous
September 26, 2004 2:54:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

Jedah And Sonans wrote:

> "David Pochron" <dpoch@ticon.net> wrote in message
> news:41559b6c$0$71584$18feec2b@news.ticon.net...
> > ...and nothing has really changed between them. :-) Unless there's going
> to
> > be some big revelation in part 2, it looks like the "girl" Ash was pining
> > away for in "Pokemon: Jirachi" is Latias, and not Misty! I suppose
> there's
> > the girl he and Brock had a brief crush on in "The School of Hard Knocks",
> > but that was before they decided to write Ash as a lunkhead when it comes
> to
> > romance. And then there's Melody from "Pokemon 2000", but Ash never
> seemed
> > to show an interest in her. And of course there's Bayleaf, but that
> > relationship is definitely one-way, and it seems to annoy Ash more than
> make
> > him happy.
> >
> > Anyone else I forget?
> >
> > ----
> > David Pochron dpoch@ticon.net
> >
> >
>
> The next episode will be great (assuming they only aired part 1 today),
> since
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> N
> A
> N
> S
> U
>
> Kasumi uses her Gyarados versus the villains, and nobody in America will
> know where the hell it came from (she caught it at her own gym when she went
> back to run it; housou special #2). Now whilst I can understand there being
> no desire to translate the poopy housou episodes like Nanako (the
> baseball-crazy girl) and her adventure with a scaredy Lizardon, some of them
> are actually important to the main story, as will be revealed next week.
>
> ...ok, 1 and 2 are the only ones important to the main story; all the others
> are either TR backstory, some situation involving the other Rocket couple
> (Yamato and Kosanji*.... Cassidy and Botch?) or stories that should never
> happen (the baseball one above). Buuut.... some of them are good, and I'm
> sure the US audience would appreciate them. Seeing Satoshi's old Pokemon at
> Professor Ohkido's ranch is cool.
>
> *kosaburo daaaaa....

There is also the Brock special where he gets rid of all his pokemon and why he
does so.
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 4:11:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

"William Rendfeld" <WARendfeld@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c52dcd5b.0409251532.7409b1e9@posting.google.com...
> I think you missed the point of his conversation in 'Wish-Maker'. Ash
> was talking about being separated from a friend (Misty is definitely a
> friend). No romantic undertones there.
> Then again, I could be wrong.

Okay, let's ignore the romance part of it for a moment and just assume he's
talking about a really good friend.

Actually, the really weird thing about that scene is Ash is speaking like he
will never see the person/Pokemon he misses so badly again but that they will
always be in his heart. Until he said it was a "she" at the end of his
speech, I thought for sure he was referring to Latios, or maybe Butterfree.
Latios because he's the 1st Pokemon death in the anime, ever. And Butterfree
because he was Ash's first caught Pokemon, and he has yet to ever see him
again.

But the fact that he's referring to a girl throws that idea out the window.
So it has to be Misty or Latias, but since Misty lives so close by it doesn't
seem likely he's talking about her. (Heck, she didn't seem to have any
trouble catching up with them in the Hoenn region.) Latias seems more likely
since he's not likely to travel to Altomare again anytime soon. But I wanted
to see his reaction to Misty yesterday to see if he really missed her as
badly as he seemed indicate in "Jirachi" if that was indeed who he was
referring to, but he failed that test miserably. So that's why I'm really
leaning toward it being Latias now.

Then again, maybe the whole "Jirachi" quote is just be the US dubbers trying
to shoehorn in the whole Misty/Ash relationship again, and the original
Japanese version does refer to someone/something male?

----
David Pochron dpoch@ticon.net
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 7:27:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

"David Pochron" <dpoch@ticon.net> wrote in message
news:4157a103$0$71583$18feec2b@news.ticon.net...
> Butterfree because he was Ash's first caught Pokemon, and he has yet to
> ever
> see him again.

Crud. Just found out Butterfree is dead and they changed the US dub to hide
that fact. No wonder we haven't seen him since he left. :-(


----
David Pochron dpoch@ticon.net
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 1:32:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

David Pochron wrote:

> "David Pochron" <dpoch@ticon.net> wrote in message
> news:4157a103$0$71583$18feec2b@news.ticon.net...
> > Butterfree because he was Ash's first caught Pokemon, and he has yet to
> > ever
> > see him again.
>
> Crud. Just found out Butterfree is dead and they changed the US dub to hide
> that fact. No wonder we haven't seen him since he left. :-(
>
> ----
> David Pochron dpoch@ticon.net

So how did he get it?
--
Richard The Blind Typer
Lets Hear It For Talking Computers.
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 2:10:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

"richard e white" <chiphead@cox.net> wrote in message
news:4158E94A.D8031158@cox.net...
> So how did he get it?

In the Japanese version of "Bye Bye Butterfree", Brock reveals to Ash that
male Butterfree die after they mate.

----
David Pochron dpoch@ticon.net
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 10:19:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

"David Pochron" <dpoch@ticon.net> wrote in message
news:41597ef9$0$71582$18feec2b@news.ticon.net...
>> So how did he get it?
>
> In the Japanese version of "Bye Bye Butterfree", Brock reveals to Ash that
> male Butterfree die after they mate.

Really? What an utterly weird thing to write into a cartoon. Are you sure
someone's not having you on?

--
Steffan Alun

http://iceduck.pkmn.co.uk/ - my site
http://www.pkmn.co.uk/ - want Pokeyman?

Sapphire PokéDex: 201
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 10:19:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

"STEFFAN HEDD ALUN" <sha3@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:1096391947.534867@leri.aber.ac.uk...
> "David Pochron" <dpoch@ticon.net> wrote in message
> news:41597ef9$0$71582$18feec2b@news.ticon.net...
> >> So how did he get it?
> >
> > In the Japanese version of "Bye Bye Butterfree", Brock reveals to Ash
that
> > male Butterfree die after they mate.
>
> Really? What an utterly weird thing to write into a cartoon. Are you
sure
> someone's not having you on?


They are supposed to be bugs....

daramark
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 10:19:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

"STEFFAN HEDD ALUN" <sha3@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message > Really? What an
utterly weird thing to write into a cartoon. Are you sure
> someone's not having you on?

Do a search on the serebii.net Pokemon anime forum for "Butterfree" and
you'll find a couple of threads that mention what was originally scripted for
the episode.

There's some controversy over what Brock actually said. Sometimes it's
translated as "Butterfree mate and then they die" but others have seen it
translated as "Butterfree mate before they die". But it seems like most
people believe the first translation is more accurate and that's why Ash was
so very upset over having to let him go.

If it's true, my own opinion on what probably happens is the mating ritual
takes place during the long journey across the ocean and by the time its done
the male Butterfree are too exhausted to finish the trip so they drop into
the sea and drown. :-(

----
David Pochron dpoch@ticon.net
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 10:23:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

"daramark" <mark.bull@sympatico.ca> wrote in news:zGh6d.5581$MD5.569956
@news20.bellglobal.com:

> "STEFFAN HEDD ALUN" <sha3@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:1096391947.534867@leri.aber.ac.uk...
>> "David Pochron" <dpoch@ticon.net> wrote in message
>> news:41597ef9$0$71582$18feec2b@news.ticon.net...
>> >> So how did he get it?
>> >
>> > In the Japanese version of "Bye Bye Butterfree", Brock reveals to
Ash
> that
>> > male Butterfree die after they mate.
>>
>> Really? What an utterly weird thing to write into a cartoon. Are you
> sure
>> someone's not having you on?
>
>
> They are supposed to be bugs....
>
And let's face it it's not as though the death of a pokemon is unknown
in the games.
Ted
--
Evil is such a negative term........
I prefer differently moraled.
\ /
0 0
°
~
Y
Anonymous
September 29, 2004 4:33:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

David Pochron wrote:

> ...and nothing has really changed between them. :-)

I see that Misty also went for a new outfit. Now yellow with blue
was a good match for redhead Misty. But a pure yellow outfit ( except
for a red top that's mostly hidden by her yellow vest ), that's just not
her color.
Still, I appreciate that she's still partial to short shorts. I
wonder if she got the idea for her outfit from Hikari Kamiya. :-)

- Juan F. Lara
http://bellsouthpwp.net/l/a/lara6281/intro.html
Anonymous
September 29, 2004 4:37:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

daramark wrote:

>>>male Butterfree die after they mate.

>>Really? What an utterly weird thing to write into a cartoon. Are you sure
>>someone's not having you on?

> They are supposed to be bugs....

Scythers and Scizzors are mantis pokemon, right? Boy, do I feel
sorry for those males. :-)

- Juan F. Lara
Anonymous
September 29, 2004 6:40:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

>Do a search on the serebii.net

COUGH. COUGH. COUGH.



Jose L. Solano
-------------------------------
A devious, degenerate defender of the devil
-------------------------------
"It's too damn safe."
Anonymous
September 29, 2004 3:11:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

"David Pochron" <dpoch@ticon.net> wrote in message
news:4159e929$0$3644$18feec2b@news.ticon.net...
> Do a search on the serebii.net Pokemon anime forum for "Butterfree" and
> you'll find a couple of threads that mention what was originally scripted
> for the episode.

I stopped listening after "serebii".

> There's some controversy over what Brock actually said. Sometimes it's
> translated as "Butterfree mate and then they die" but others have seen it
> translated as "Butterfree mate before they die". But it seems like most
> people believe the first translation is more accurate and that's why Ash
> was so very upset over having to let him go.

That's just dumb. He's upset because he's seperating from a Pokémon for the
first time. The whole point of the episode (other than getting rid of a
dumb Pokémon to make room for more) is to show that Ash has to be selfless
and give up Butterfree for 'free's own happiness, and that whole thing is
undermined if it's a metaphor for terminal illness. The reason Butterfree
never returned is because not enough kids care - the same reason Pigeot
hasn't been seen since leaving, amongst several others.

> If it's true, my own opinion on what probably happens is the mating ritual
> takes place during the long journey across the ocean and by the time its
> done the male Butterfree are too exhausted to finish the trip so they drop
> into the sea and drown. :-(

Think about what you're saying. Sure, the show's acknowledged death, but
it's a bit of a stretch to assume that they don't mind killing off
"""beloved""" Pokémon just to make room for a Mankey later on.

Don't believe everything you read.

--
Steffan Alun

http://iceduck.pkmn.co.uk/ - my site
http://www.pkmn.co.uk/ - want Pokeyman?

Sapphire PokéDex: 201
Anonymous
September 29, 2004 6:34:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

"STEFFAN HEDD ALUN" <sha3@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:1096452715.599289@leri.aber.ac.uk...
> I stopped listening after "serebii".

I noticed "office politics" seems to play a larger than usual role in regards
to the various Pokesites. :-/ It's too bad, really. Regardless of whether a
group of people believe a particular website has any credibility or not is
not an issue since the info is from the forums, not from the moderators. Any
Pokesite forum has as much credibility as any other Pokesite forum, including
a.g.n.p, as long as the moderators aren't trying to squelch or reshape posts
on this matter. Like I said in my previous message, not everyone agrees
about the interpretation of the dialogue in the episode - there is plenty of
debate. But it would explain a lot as to why we get to see just about all of
Ash's other discarded Pokemon but not Butterfree, and I think that makes for
a compelling argument. The final determining factor, however, would be to
listen to the episode as it aired in Japan and figure out what the exact
dialogue was.


> that whole thing is undermined if it's a metaphor for terminal illness.

I don't think terminal illness is the correct term here at all. The
situation isn't that Butterfree is unconditionally dying. If Ash doesn't
release Butterfree he would live, but Butterfree would have serious regrets
about a lost love. IN FACT, if anything, Ash knowing Butterfree is likely to
die because of his choice strengthens the point of the episode - Ash respects
his Pokemon and he will give up some of his happiness in order to let
Butterfree live his life the way he wants to, even though Ash may think its
foolish.


> The reason Butterfree never returned is because not enough kids care - the
> same reason Pigeot hasn't been seen since leaving, amongst several others.

I disagree with you here. First of all, when I'm referring to Ash's Pokemon,
I don't count the "loaner Pokemon" like Larvitar and Lapras. Second, I think
you're thinking in terms of the game as far as the popularity of Butterfree.
Butterfree may be weak in the game, but he was a fairly interesting character
in the anime. I totally disagree with you when you say he isn't popular with
kids, or at least with young kids. Guess who is on my niece's list of
favorite Pokemon? Pikachu, Mew, Mewtwo, Treecko, Charizard, Butterfree,
Beautifly, and Starmie. No big surprises there considering her age. I don't
think it's the case that we don't see the Pokemon that aren't popular. Heck,
we've seen Kingler (KINGLER?!) return more often than Butterfree, and somehow
I don't think anime Kingler is more popular with kids than anime Butterfree.
The only other Pokemon from the first and second season that I can think of
other than Butterfree and Pidgeot (though I swear I remember seeing Pidgeot
return for an episode) that haven't been seen again is Primeape. Everyone
else has either showed up for cameos at Oak's lab or has had a special
episode (or movie appearance) since they left Ash's group way back when.
Bayleaf, Cyndaquil, etc. don't count because although it has been a year
since Ash met May in our time, it's probably been like what, only a couple of
months in series time since Ash left for Hoenn?


> Think about what you're saying. Sure, the show's acknowledged death,

Has it? One of my gripes about the show has been how they always skirt the
issue. If it's true that Butterfree died then that changes my opinion on
that matter completely. (Although I will say my opinion is largely changed
already due to Latios' fate in "Pokemon Heroes".)


> it's a bit of a stretch to assume that they don't mind killing off
> """beloved""" Pokémon just to make room for a Mankey later on.

Except that was back at the start of the series, when it was OK to have
rangers pointing guns at kids and hitting on Misty, and James in drag. Now
the series has gotten a lot more conservative since it has such a worldwide
appeal now. I agree with you to a point: If Butterfree were still with Ash
today they would never write an episode that would kill him off. But back
then, it's plausible.


> Don't believe everything you read.

I don't. I think the bigger lesson to learn is don't trust the dub version
for facts. If they can hack Mewtwo's origin or rewrite the Legend of
Altomare then they could change anything in the dub, and it would only take a
few changed words to change the meaning of something. Heck, I still have
serious doubts about whether the original point of this thread, who was Ash
referring to when he says he misses someone in "Jirachi" is an accurate
translation from the original dialogue. If it's a girl then this week's
episode would point that toward Latias, but if it's a boy then it has to be
Latios or Butterfree. After learning the possible fate of Butterfree, now
I'm really giving serious consideration to the possibility that the dub is
wrong and the change was made to make us think Misty x Ash together is real,
even though it isn't, and that he is indeed referring to Butterfree.

----
David Pochron dpoch@ticon.net
Anonymous
September 30, 2004 1:34:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, David Pochron wrote:
> > Think about what you're saying. Sure, the show's acknowledged death,
>
> Has it? One of my gripes about the show has been how they always skirt
> the issue. If it's true that Butterfree died then that changes my opinion
> on that matter completely.

Personally, I'd put my money on it being true - after all, if the Sailor
Senshi can die messily and onscreen at the end of the first Sailor Moon
series (which is aimed at about the same age group as Pokemon is), then
surely there'd be no problem (except in North America, of course) for a
sentimental, offscreen death for Butterfree...

--
"...there are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot
easily be duplicated by a normal, kindly family man who just comes into
work every day and has a job to do." [Terry Pratchett, "Small Gods"]
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~aa343/index.html
Anonymous
September 30, 2004 4:25:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

"David Pochron" <dpoch@ticon.net> wrote in message
news:415b0e8a$0$71585$18feec2b@news.ticon.net...

Snipping lots of stuff that I did find interesting. More interesting than
the Anime, so go figure.

> > Don't believe everything you read.
>
> I don't. I think the bigger lesson to learn is don't trust the dub
version
> for facts. If they can hack Mewtwo's origin or rewrite the Legend of
> Altomare then they could change anything in the dub, and it would only
take a
> few changed words to change the meaning of something. Heck, I still have
> serious doubts about whether the original point of this thread, who was
Ash
> referring to when he says he misses someone in "Jirachi" is an accurate
> translation from the original dialogue. If it's a girl then this week's
> episode would point that toward Latias, but if it's a boy then it has to
be
> Latios or Butterfree. After learning the possible fate of Butterfree, now
> I'm really giving serious consideration to the possibility that the dub is
> wrong and the change was made to make us think Misty x Ash together is
real,
> even though it isn't, and that he is indeed referring to Butterfree.


Someone else mentioned Sailor Moon. And this is a very good comparison,
since they are both translated, and changed, sometimes radically, in those
translations.

We all know they eat Rice Balls, but anime translators insist that we think
of them as donuts, sandwiches etc.

They skirt all kinds of issues, because someone somewhere will not
understand (whatever). Do I think that they changed Butterfrees fate?
Sure, I know they could and would, and probably did. But I haven't seen it
in years, and I sure didn't see it in it's original Japanese version, and
even if I had, I don't speak Japanese so I would be lost anyway.

What happened to all the people who used to study Japanese here? I don't
think Catgonk was the only one. Or the people who got subtitled versions?

daramark
Anonymous
October 4, 2004 4:17:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

daramark <mark.bull@sympatico.ca> wrote:

> What happened to all the people who used to study Japanese here? I don't
> think Catgonk was the only one. Or the people who got subtitled versions?

I know some Japanese -- not perfectly fluently, but enough to get by. On
an interesting note, I was actually in Japan on the original air date of
Bye Bye Butterfree -- it was one of my earliest exposures to the show. I
don't recall anything about death in it, but it's been a long time, I
wasn't paying close attention, and my Japanese wasn't as good then as it
is now.

If someone has a raw copy of the episode they're willing to put up
somewhere, I could take a look at it and see if there's anything mentioned
about death at all. I've always been a bit skeptical of this rumor -- it
sounds to me like the sort of thing that gets invented by fans who want to
gripe endlessly about the oppressive dubbing companies and pretend the
show is a hard-hitting philosophical drama in the original. (Certainly
it's got a bit more tolerance for guns and bikinis than we see in the US,
but it's not *that* different.)

--
Scott Johnson |
zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank.
Anonymous
October 4, 2004 4:50:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.nintendo.pokemon (More info?)

And no sooner have I posted about Butterfree and the death rumor than I
find something interesting: a transcript of the episode done by a Japanese
fan way back in the day, before the show even started airing in the US.
It's somewhat clunkily translated, but quite clear nonetheless. And
there's nothing whatsoever about Butterfree dying. Not even a line about
them wanting to mate before they die. It looks like this rumor was
fabricated out of nothing.

For those interested in seeing for themselves, the transcript is at
http://www.on.rim.or.jp/~shou/butterflee.html . It matches well with what
I remember from the one time I watched the Japanese version, so I'm
inclined to trust it. And the only mention of death at all is when
Kasumi/Misty tells Satoshi/Ash to be more careful on a cliff edge or he'll
get himself killed.

So, looks like that one's been pretty conclusively debunked.

--
Scott Johnson |
zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank.
!