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BottleNecking, How do you know?

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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March 4, 2007 4:10:18 AM

I am running 8800gts on a Intel Pentium D 2.8ghz front side bus 800mhz

Also running Pentium 4 3ghz with 7950GT OC 256mb

Am i bottlenecking either one

More about : bottlenecking

March 4, 2007 4:31:57 AM

Your post makes no sense :? what is your question :?:
March 4, 2007 4:44:40 AM

Yeah, please clarify. What is your question?
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March 4, 2007 4:49:13 AM

Oh, I meant to say bottlenecking, well i recently found out 8800 will basically outrun any processor but I am still wondering about my 7950GT OC

I just did a test on CSS, on low and on high the speeds were basically the same so i believe i am bottlenecking it not sure though
March 4, 2007 4:51:11 AM

I think he was in a hurry, or he was too lazy to write his question :?
March 4, 2007 4:53:58 AM

well yeah basically a single GTS wont give you a bottleneck neither the 7950.

But if you are planning to get 2 GTS or 2 GTX, then it will be a bottleneck and then it would be better to change the hole system.
March 4, 2007 4:55:00 AM

Ok here are the specifics on my 7950GT computer

Pentium 4 HT 3.0ghz
1024MB PC2-4200 DDR2 SDRAM
160GB 7200RPM SATA 3Gb/s hard drive
7950GT OC (BFG brand)
400W Power Supply

Now what I dont understand Is people have been telling me they have 7600's and can run it at med and get 70-80fps and I attempt to run it at med and get 15-30fps, there has to be a loss of performance somewhere and only thing I can think of is I am bottlenecking my processor
March 4, 2007 6:18:41 AM

Your 7950 won't be the bottleneck with those processors. Those Pentiums are the most likely culprit.

As for:

Quote:
Now what I dont understand Is people have been telling me they have 7600's and can run it at med and get 70-80fps and I attempt to run it at med and get 15-30fps, there has to be a loss of performance somewhere and only thing I can think of is I am bottlenecking my processor


That's something else altogether with such a low framerate. CSS is running on an engine that came out in 2004; hell, even my PC can run it.

Notice anything weird when playing CSS (constant hard drive access, screen artefacts, etc)?
March 4, 2007 7:17:57 AM

im talking about bf 2142
March 4, 2007 9:30:54 AM

Quote:
im talking about bf 2142


This is the first mention of BF2142...

Check the settings that the 7600's are using; I am 99% confident that their settings are different to your 7950GT.

Also check their WHOLE rig, not just the card.
March 4, 2007 1:30:41 PM

the cpu is going to limit those two cards..pentiums just cant compete with the current cards...a pd will be fine to run the 7950,but you realy ned an x2 or c2d to get the most outa an 8 series
March 4, 2007 4:26:36 PM

True the Pentium D ran the 7950gt alot better when we had it in it we had the settings higher then what I am running it now, I guess im gonna have to buy me a $600 dollar processor :?
March 4, 2007 7:37:30 PM

no, get you a nice c2d, even the e4300 will outperform what you have now, and you can get them,with a mobo, for around $200, and you will see a world of diffrence, compared to what you have now
March 4, 2007 7:55:49 PM

e4300 looks pretty cheap, now people are talking about overclocking the processor how do you do that with a processor?? cause I plan on buying one now
March 4, 2007 8:37:27 PM

There is no video card that that is bottlenecked by any of todays current processors. Its been proven that the gfx driver only takes up 15-30% of cpu cycles depending on the speed of the cpu. Games on the other hand can still be bottlenecked by current cpu's. Anything under a 2.5ghz athlon x2 can still bottleneck some games. Upping the res of games just "hides" the cpu bottlenecking by making the gpu the bigger bottleneck.
March 4, 2007 8:57:12 PM

Quote:
no, get you a nice c2d, even the e4300 will outperform what you have now, and you can get them,with a mobo, for around $200, and you will see a world of diffrence, compared to what you have now


I agree
March 4, 2007 9:12:11 PM

it depends on the mobo you get,how you overclock it,its best to do it inside the bios though, lotsa post in the forum for first time overclockers.
Anandtech,toms,dailytech,vrzone, have all shown that the 8 series cards are bottlenecked by slower cpus. Its not an opinion, its a proven fact that the 8 series performs almost 30% better on a c2d over a pd. If thats not a bottleneck, what is it?
March 4, 2007 11:12:57 PM

Alright now, even if I didnt over clock the e4300 would it still outperform the pentium d?
March 4, 2007 11:20:28 PM

Quote:
it depends on the mobo you get,how you overclock it,its best to do it inside the bios though, lotsa post in the forum for first time overclockers.
Anandtech,toms,dailytech,vrzone, have all shown that the 8 series cards are bottlenecked by slower cpus. Its not an opinion, its a proven fact that the 8 series performs almost 30% better on a c2d over a pd. If thats not a bottleneck, what is it?


You obviously have no idea how a bottleneck occurs in games. You believe everything you read? A cpu performs many functions during a game. Physics, A.I., sound(unless you have a creative card), gfx driver, networking, etc. The gfx driver takes up roughly 20% cpu cycles on avg., less if you have a fast c2d. Heres an example of what I'm talking about.

1024x768 - cpu is pushing 100fps, 8800gtx is pushing 200fps
1280x1024 - cpu - 100fps, 8800gtx - 150fps
16x12 - cpu - 100fps, 8800gtx - 100fps
2048x1536 - cpu - 100fps, 8800gtx - 50fps

Now here's why oc'ing the cpu at lower res gives perf increase. The game can only go as fast as the slowest part. So example 1 goes 100fps, 2 goes 100fps, 3 goes 100fps, 4 goes 50fps(the gpu has now become the bottleneck).

OC the cpu 100% and now you can change the cpu to 200fps. Which would make example 1 200fps, 2 150fps(the gpu is now the bottleneck), 3 100fps, 4 50fps.

So to sum it up, there are x(cpu) and y(gpu) frames. x = 40fps and y = 50fps game = 40fps

So yes a faster cpu helps no doubt because during a game the fps are not at a constant rate, they are always in fluctuation depending on what the game engine needs atm. Alot of physics/AI/architecture in a scene can bring cpu perf down to 15-20fps while the gfx card is still able to push 100fps(ala oblivion in a city section). You can have a 9900gtz ultra and you are still only going to get 15-20fps because your cpu is holding the game down. This is the proper example of a cpu bottleneck. But go to the forest in oblivion and the cpu is pushing 100fps(because cpu load is now lighter) while the gpu is pushing 60(gpu load is heavier) and now you have a gpu bottleneck.

Very long post but I hope you take the time to read it. You'll have a better understanding of how a game engine uses the parts in your computer. Sometimes you are gpu bottlenecked, others cpu bottlenecked. With an 8800gtx, I'd say you are cpu bottlenecked 95% of the time in todays games unless you game at ultra high res(over 16x12).
March 5, 2007 12:32:03 AM

Makes alot of sense, the graphics can go only as fast as your processor can pump out the data on phsysics ai etc. BGecause I noticed on Counter Strike Source, which involves alllot of physics when a grenade goes off by alot of moveable objects my fps drops by 20-30 fps.

But one thing I dont understand is does ghz on processor not matter because my pentium 4 is running 3ghz and sum1 had a 2.8 AMD and 7600GT and can run 2142 on med graphics no problem 50-80fps, But i get rates of 15-20fps.
March 5, 2007 12:55:05 AM

Quote:
Makes alot of sense, the graphics can go only as fast as your processor can pump out the data on phsysics ai etc. BGecause I noticed on Counter Strike Source, which involves alllot of physics when a grenade goes off by alot of moveable objects my fps drops by 20-30 fps.

But one thing I dont understand is does ghz on processor not matter because my pentium 4 is running 3ghz and sum1 had a 2.8 AMD and 7600GT and can run 2142 on med graphics no problem 50-80fps, But i get rates of 15-20fps.


Off the top of my head a pent 3.0ghz is roughly equal to an amd64 at 2.0ghz. So extrapolate the amd to 2.8ghz and you would have to oc the pent to 4.2ghz to equal that. To throw a monkey wrench into the equation, an amd at 2.8ghz is roughly equal to a conroe at 2.0ghz. So, 2.0ghz conroe = 4.2ghz pent. OC the conroe to 3.2ghz and you would need a pent at 7ghz to match it. You aren't even halfway there lol. Get a cheap conroe, oc it, and be good for the next couple years. I just upgraded to an e4300(from an athlon64 2.8ghz) and oc'ed it to 3.2ghz myself and it is a beast. My 1800xt is having a hard time keeping up thats for sure.
March 5, 2007 2:31:01 AM

wow,so you took all that, to argue with me, to say that yes indeed, for todays games, which is what we are talking about, the cpu is inded the bottleneck...hmmm...wow thankyou for clearing that for me. Im glad you can tell me i dont know what im talking about, at the same time you agree with me totaly. To move on, in reality, if you can afford it, get a e4300, a nice board,not budget, a decent psu,and some decent ram, run the e4300 at 2.9, a safe oc,will last for a long time at this speed, and you will be much happier with your 8 series card
March 5, 2007 2:50:33 AM

who said you dont know what your talking about, Im just saying does ghz really matter or is it the type of processor
March 5, 2007 2:55:10 AM

Quote:
wow,so you took all that, to argue with me, to say that yes indeed, for todays games, which is what we are talking about, the cpu is inded the bottleneck...hmmm...wow thankyou for clearing that for me. Im glad you can tell me i dont know what im talking about, at the same time you agree with me totaly. To move on, in reality, if you can afford it, get a e4300, a nice board,not budget, a decent psu,and some decent ram, run the e4300 at 2.9, a safe oc,will last for a long time at this speed, and you will be much happier with your 8 series card


No, I took all that to show you how cpu bottlenecking REALLY WORKS. As you showed you didn't know how it works. In todays games the gpu is the major bottleneck(you still don't get it). To relieve that bottleneck you have to get an 8800gtx which leaves the cpu as the bottleneck. So unless you have an 8800gtx/s, the gpu is still the bottleneck(unless you have a slow pent4). Even in FSX an 8800gtx is still the bottleneck in any avg res.

What I was clearing up is this misconception that cpu's somehow affect how fast a gpu goes. It's simply not true. They affect how fast game engines go. It's like a three legged race. You can only go as fast as the slowest partner, but one doesn't carry/push/pull the other.
March 5, 2007 3:32:50 AM

Either way it still affects the performance of the game :l, whether or not its the engine or the graphics.
March 5, 2007 4:12:41 AM

correct. I just hate to see people spend 3 or 4 hundred bucks on a mobo/cpu/mem combo thinking that they're going to make their gfx card somehow go faster when alot of the time their upgrades do exactly nothing. If you understand how the system works you can better recognize what needs upgraded right?
March 5, 2007 5:02:07 AM

Quote:
correct. I just hate to see people spend 3 or 4 hundred bucks on a mobo/cpu/mem combo thinking that they're going to make their gfx card somehow go faster when alot of the time their upgrades do exactly nothing. If you understand how the system works you can better recognize what needs upgraded right?



yeh so let me run a 8800gtx with my pentium III 450mhz. GReat!
March 5, 2007 6:20:07 PM

Yea but when you upgrade its stillgonna increase the game performance because you can squeeze alot more performance out of it.
March 5, 2007 11:04:58 PM

Well, the name of the thread is "bottlenecking, how do i know?" and I explained how. if you increase res and gfx effects and you still get the same fps you are cpu bottlenecked. Simple as that. Increase res and gfx effects and fps plummets you are gpu bottlenecked.
March 6, 2007 12:14:26 AM

Quote:
it depends on the mobo you get,how you overclock it,its best to do it inside the bios though, lotsa post in the forum for first time overclockers.
Anandtech,toms,dailytech,vrzone, have all shown that the 8 series cards are bottlenecked by slower cpus. Its not an opinion, its a proven fact that the 8 series performs almost 30% better on a c2d over a pd. If thats not a bottleneck, what is it?


As far as I know, its only bottlenecked when 2x 8800 series are used, 1 doesnt botleneck, but hey, please correct me if Im wrong.
March 6, 2007 1:14:41 AM

it depends on the game really. I'm finding that supreme commander wants more cpu than I can give it (im giving it 3.25ghz c2d). No matter what gfx settings I use I'm locked at about 24-28fps. So, I'm cpu bottlenecked at 1680x1050 6xAA high gfx setting with an 1800xt 512mb. FEAR on the other hand shows complete gpu bottlenecking. Any gfx setting I touch changes game performance alot. Like I said its not cut and dried, different games lean one way or the other.
March 6, 2007 1:19:18 AM

Exactly, but thats the idea, 1 card is not a big deal. 2 cards is the thing, I think Penryn will fix that problem ;) 

But we will have to wait too long :( 
!