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Upconverting DVD players

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Anonymous
September 4, 2004 1:57:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Doesn't my TV already do this? What is the advantage of having the DVD
player do it?
Also, with HD-DVD and Blu-ray coming in 2005 (granted that content will
come out at a trickle at best for a while) should anybody be looking at
an upconverting DVD player now?
September 4, 2004 2:28:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Michael Lankton" <mlankton@spymac.com> wrote in message
news:20040903165736310-0500@netnews.mchsi.com...
> Doesn't my TV already do this? What is the advantage of having the DVD
> player do it?
> Also, with HD-DVD and Blu-ray coming in 2005 (granted that content will
> come out at a trickle at best for a while) should anybody be looking at
> an upconverting DVD player now?

No advantage in most if almost all cases; especially if you have a DVI
output.

Richard.
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 6:28:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:28:28 GMT, "Richard" <rfeirste@nycap.rr.com>
wrote:

>
>"Michael Lankton" <mlankton@spymac.com> wrote in message
>news:20040903165736310-0500@netnews.mchsi.com...
>> Doesn't my TV already do this? What is the advantage of having the DVD
>> player do it?
>> Also, with HD-DVD and Blu-ray coming in 2005 (granted that content will
>> come out at a trickle at best for a while) should anybody be looking at
>> an upconverting DVD player now?
>
>No advantage in most if almost all cases; especially if you have a DVI
>output.
>
>Richard.
>

I bought a panasonic at walmart for $79. I had to open a menu to set
it by the instruction book for progressive scan. It mentioned
depending on how you connect the player it might convert to
interlaced.
I have a new 34" direct view sony hdtv. I set it to 1080 and now the
DVD's really look great. I can see lots of difference over the
regular panasonic 27" flat screen color tv we had it connected to
before.
This new sony hd set does up converts, dvd's, vcr's, hd receiver and
etc.

hdtvfan
Related resources
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 10:20:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In <e3rij0h5drvj73sub1s75u4rfcoqse73mk@4ax.com> hdtvfan wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:28:28 GMT, "Richard" <rfeirste@nycap.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
> I bought a panasonic at walmart for $79. I had to open a menu to set
> it by the instruction book for progressive scan. It mentioned
> depending on how you connect the player it might convert to
> interlaced.
> I have a new 34" direct view sony hdtv. I set it to 1080 and now the
> DVD's really look great. I can see lots of difference over the
> regular panasonic 27" flat screen color tv we had it connected to
> before.
> This new sony hd set does up converts, dvd's, vcr's, hd receiver and
> etc.
>
> hdtvfan

I guess I should clarify: my Tosh DLP already upconverts everything to
720p. Why would having a DVD player that did this be an improvement over
having my TV do it?
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 11:06:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Michael Lankton" <mlankton@spymac.com> wrote in message
news:20040904132032298-0500@netnews.mchsi.com...
> In <e3rij0h5drvj73sub1s75u4rfcoqse73mk@4ax.com> hdtvfan wrote:
>> On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:28:28 GMT, "Richard" <rfeirste@nycap.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I bought a panasonic at walmart for $79. I had to open a menu to set
>> it by the instruction book for progressive scan. It mentioned
>> depending on how you connect the player it might convert to
>> interlaced.
>> I have a new 34" direct view sony hdtv. I set it to 1080 and now the
>> DVD's really look great. I can see lots of difference over the
>> regular panasonic 27" flat screen color tv we had it connected to
>> before.
>> This new sony hd set does up converts, dvd's, vcr's, hd receiver and
>> etc.
>>
>> hdtvfan
>
> I guess I should clarify: my Tosh DLP already upconverts everything to
> 720p. Why would having a DVD player that did this be an improvement over
> having my TV do it?

I think for you specifically the key thing is that you would have a pure
digital path all the way through to the screen (i.e. from the DVI hookup).
I don't believe they sell "regular" (i.e. non-upconverting) players with DVI
output on them.

I believe DVDs have some ancillary data encoded on them in order to help do
a better job with the upconversion. Therefore upconverting right at the DVD
could potentially be better if it takes advantage of that information.

Brad
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 11:06:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Brad Griffis wrote:
>> "Michael Lankton" <mlankton@spymac.com> wrote in message
>> news:20040904132032298-0500@netnews.mchsi.com...
>>> In <e3rij0h5drvj73sub1s75u4rfcoqse73mk@4ax.com> hdtvfan wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:28:28 GMT, "Richard" <rfeirste@nycap.rr.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I bought a panasonic at walmart for $79. I had to open a menu to
>>>> set
>>>> it by the instruction book for progressive scan. It mentioned
>>>> depending on how you connect the player it might convert to
>>>> interlaced.
>>>> I have a new 34" direct view sony hdtv. I set it to 1080 and now
>>>> the DVD's really look great. I can see lots of difference over the
>>>> regular panasonic 27" flat screen color tv we had it connected to
>>>> before.
>>>> This new sony hd set does up converts, dvd's, vcr's, hd receiver
>>>> and etc.
>>>>
>>>> hdtvfan
>>>
>>> I guess I should clarify: my Tosh DLP already upconverts everything
>>> to 720p. Why would having a DVD player that did this be an
>>> improvement over having my TV do it?
>>
>> I think for you specifically the key thing is that you would have a
>> pure digital path all the way through to the screen (i.e. from the
>> DVI hookup). I don't believe they sell "regular" (i.e.
>> non-upconverting) players with DVI output on them.
>>
>> I believe DVDs have some ancillary data encoded on them in order to
>> help do a better job with the upconversion. Therefore upconverting
>> right at the DVD could potentially be better if it takes advantage
>> of that information.
>>
>> Brad

I was reading on the Samsung forum at eCoustics.com that, at least with the
Samsung HD-841, that upconverting through the DVI will disable the
Faroudja's line doubling in the DLP in order to perform the function with
its own chip (edge enhancement and another function, I forget which, are
still performed by the TV). Because of this, it was recommended for those
whose DLPs came with Faroudja to wait for the HD-941 which would have a
Faroudja chip (the HD-841 doesn't).

Have you heard anything about this, and would it be true (i.e. the disabling
of the TV's line doubling) for other DVI capable DVD players?

Bruce
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 11:06:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Brad Griffis wrote:

> I think for you specifically the key thing is that you would have a pure
> digital path all the way through to the screen (i.e. from the DVI hookup).
> I don't believe they sell "regular" (i.e. non-upconverting) players with DVI
> output on them.


Brad,

Would it not be "pure digital" if he outputted 480P from his player via
DVI and upconverted in the TV. I'd try it both ways and see which does
the better job of upconverting to the latent 720P display.

Jerry
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 10:05:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"jsheldon" <jsheldonDELETETHIS@his.com> wrote in message
news:413a2560@news101.his.com...
>
>
> Brad Griffis wrote:
>
>> I think for you specifically the key thing is that you would have a pure
>> digital path all the way through to the screen (i.e. from the DVI
>> hookup). I don't believe they sell "regular" (i.e. non-upconverting)
>> players with DVI output on them.
>
>
> Brad,
>
> Would it not be "pure digital" if he outputted 480P from his player via
> DVI and upconverted in the TV. I'd try it both ways and see which does
> the better job of upconverting to the latent 720P display.
>
> Jerry
>

That's true that it would stay all digital even with a 480p signal.
However, DVDs are encoded with a 480i signal. By outputting a 480p signal
you would be doing TWO conversions of the signal which results in twice the
number of roundoff errors in the conversion process and degrades the signal.
The first conversion would be the deinterlacing from 480i -> 480p in the DVD
player and then you'd have the set converting from 480p -> 720p

The goal is to do scaling ONCE and have that scaling done with the better
scaling technology. As Bruiser mentioned the Samsung HD-841 DVD player does
not use Faroudja scaling technology. So if you were connecting a Samsung
HD-841 DVD player up to a Samsung DLP tv which does use Faroudja it would be
best to output at 480i and let the DLP upconvert to 720p.

On the other hand, say you had an HD-841 hooked up to a Toshiba DLP.
Neither of them uses Faroudja so you'd probably need to do some
experimentation to see if the DLP or the DVD player does a better job with
the upscaling. However, relating this back to Michael Lankton who has a
Toshiba DLP, he could benefit by buying a player such as the Samsung HD-941
(when it is released shortly) such that he could have his upconversion done
using Faroudja technology. If he's got another player then like you said
he'll need to just experiment to see what's best.

Brad
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 10:05:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Brad Griffis wrote:

> ... However, relating this back to Michael Lankton who has a
> Toshiba DLP, he could benefit by buying a player such as the Samsung HD-941
> (when it is released shortly) such that he could have his upconversion done
> using Faroudja technology. If he's got another player then like you said
> he'll need to just experiment to see what's best.

Brad,

Makes sense. Thanks!

Jerry
Anonymous
September 6, 2004 3:34:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Except 480i to 480p upconversion involves no scaling whatsoever. It's a
pure bob and weave deinterlacing to reconstruct original film frames. No
data is added and none taken away. If the this 480p signal was given to the
TV via DVI or FIrewire, then it is staying digital up to the line doubler in
the TV for a conversion to the Native resolution.

"Brad Griffis" <bradgriffis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nzI_c.14309$Y94.4160@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "jsheldon" <jsheldonDELETETHIS@his.com> wrote in message
> news:413a2560@news101.his.com...
>>
>>
>> Brad Griffis wrote:
>>
>>> I think for you specifically the key thing is that you would have a pure
>>> digital path all the way through to the screen (i.e. from the DVI
>>> hookup). I don't believe they sell "regular" (i.e. non-upconverting)
>>> players with DVI output on them.
>>
>>
>> Brad,
>>
>> Would it not be "pure digital" if he outputted 480P from his player via
>> DVI and upconverted in the TV. I'd try it both ways and see which does
>> the better job of upconverting to the latent 720P display.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>
> That's true that it would stay all digital even with a 480p signal.
> However, DVDs are encoded with a 480i signal. By outputting a 480p signal
> you would be doing TWO conversions of the signal which results in twice
> the number of roundoff errors in the conversion process and degrades the
> signal. The first conversion would be the deinterlacing from 480i -> 480p
> in the DVD player and then you'd have the set converting from 480p -> 720p
>
> The goal is to do scaling ONCE and have that scaling done with the better
> scaling technology. As Bruiser mentioned the Samsung HD-841 DVD player
> does not use Faroudja scaling technology. So if you were connecting a
> Samsung HD-841 DVD player up to a Samsung DLP tv which does use Faroudja
> it would be best to output at 480i and let the DLP upconvert to 720p.
>
> On the other hand, say you had an HD-841 hooked up to a Toshiba DLP.
> Neither of them uses Faroudja so you'd probably need to do some
> experimentation to see if the DLP or the DVD player does a better job with
> the upscaling. However, relating this back to Michael Lankton who has a
> Toshiba DLP, he could benefit by buying a player such as the Samsung
> HD-941 (when it is released shortly) such that he could have his
> upconversion done using Faroudja technology. If he's got another player
> then like you said he'll need to just experiment to see what's best.
>
> Brad
>
>
>
Anonymous
September 6, 2004 4:22:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I've read that there is more information on a DVD than is needed to output
in 480i (which, if I understand correctly, is what you are saying).
Therefore, if the player is set to 480p, wouldn't that give the line doubler
in the TV more data to work with in its conversion (in my case,
Faroudja --> 720p) and theoretically a better picture than feeding Faroudja
a 480i signal and having it upconvert that?

Bruce

Rajendra Gondhalekar wrote:
>> Except 480i to 480p upconversion involves no scaling whatsoever.
>> It's a pure bob and weave deinterlacing to reconstruct original film
>> frames. No data is added and none taken away. If the this 480p
>> signal was given to the TV via DVI or FIrewire, then it is staying
>> digital up to the line doubler in the TV for a conversion to the
>> Native resolution.
>>
>> "Brad Griffis" <bradgriffis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:nzI_c.14309$Y94.4160@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>>>
>>> "jsheldon" <jsheldonDELETETHIS@his.com> wrote in message
>>> news:413a2560@news101.his.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brad Griffis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think for you specifically the key thing is that you would have
>>>>> a pure digital path all the way through to the screen (i.e. from
>>>>> the DVI hookup). I don't believe they sell "regular" (i.e.
>>>>> non-upconverting) players with DVI output on them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brad,
>>>>
>>>> Would it not be "pure digital" if he outputted 480P from his
>>>> player via DVI and upconverted in the TV. I'd try it both ways
>>>> and see which does the better job of upconverting to the latent
>>>> 720P display.
>>>>
>>>> Jerry
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's true that it would stay all digital even with a 480p signal.
>>> However, DVDs are encoded with a 480i signal. By outputting a 480p
>>> signal you would be doing TWO conversions of the signal which
>>> results in twice the number of roundoff errors in the conversion
>>> process and degrades the signal. The first conversion would be the
>>> deinterlacing from 480i -> 480p in the DVD player and then you'd
>>> have the set converting from 480p -> 720p
>>>
>>> The goal is to do scaling ONCE and have that scaling done with the
>>> better scaling technology. As Bruiser mentioned the Samsung HD-841
>>> DVD player does not use Faroudja scaling technology. So if you
>>> were connecting a Samsung HD-841 DVD player up to a Samsung DLP tv
>>> which does use Faroudja it would be best to output at 480i and let
>>> the DLP upconvert to 720p.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, say you had an HD-841 hooked up to a Toshiba DLP.
>>> Neither of them uses Faroudja so you'd probably need to do some
>>> experimentation to see if the DLP or the DVD player does a better
>>> job with the upscaling. However, relating this back to Michael
>>> Lankton who has a Toshiba DLP, he could benefit by buying a player
>>> such as the Samsung HD-941 (when it is released shortly) such that
>>> he could have his upconversion done using Faroudja technology. If
>>> he's got another player then like you said he'll need to just
>>> experiment to see what's best.
>>>
>>> Brad
Anonymous
September 7, 2004 3:11:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:22:07 -0700, "Bruiser" <noth@nks.com> wrote:

>I've read that there is more information on a DVD than is needed to output
>in 480i.

Out of curiosity, where did you read that? Because I think it's false.
There are exactly 480 lines in NTSC DVD, which I would submit is
exactly enough to output in 480i. Or, in the case of film material,
480p. I would honestly like to learn what "more information" that
would help above 480i is stored on a DVD.
Anonymous
September 7, 2004 3:11:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Karyudo wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:22:07 -0700, "Bruiser" <noth@nks.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I've read that there is more information on a DVD than is needed to output
>>in 480i.
>
>
> Out of curiosity, where did you read that? Because I think it's false.
> There are exactly 480 lines in NTSC DVD, which I would submit is
> exactly enough to output in 480i. Or, in the case of film material,
> 480p. I would honestly like to learn what "more information" that
> would help above 480i is stored on a DVD.

The information stored on DVDs is 480i. It has been filtered for
interlaced presentation. Line doubling it to 480p makes the image
brighter and more stable than 480p. There is no more real information in
a line doubled DVD's image.

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game
Anonymous
September 7, 2004 3:11:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Karyudo wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:22:07 -0700, "Bruiser" <noth@nks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've read that there is more information on a DVD than is needed to
>>> output in 480i.
>>
>> Out of curiosity, where did you read that? Because I think it's
>> false. There are exactly 480 lines in NTSC DVD, which I would submit
>> is
>> exactly enough to output in 480i. Or, in the case of film material,
>> 480p. I would honestly like to learn what "more information" that
>> would help above 480i is stored on a DVD.

You know, it might be false. I honestly can't remember where I saw it,
perhaps on a forum somewhere. So it's conceivably bad information or an
incorrect interpretation on my part.
Anonymous
September 7, 2004 3:11:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Matthew L. Martin wrote:

> Karyudo wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:22:07 -0700, "Bruiser" <noth@nks.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I've read that there is more information on a DVD than is needed to
>>> output in 480i.
>>
>>
>>
>> Out of curiosity, where did you read that? Because I think it's false.
>> There are exactly 480 lines in NTSC DVD, which I would submit is
>> exactly enough to output in 480i. Or, in the case of film material,
>> 480p. I would honestly like to learn what "more information" that
>> would help above 480i is stored on a DVD.
>
>
> The information stored on DVDs is 480i. It has been filtered for
> interlaced presentation. Line doubling it to 480p makes the image
> brighter and more stable than 480p. There is no more real information in
> a line doubled DVD's image.
>

That should be "more stable than 480i", but you knew that.

Matthew (so did I, but my fingers didn't)

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game
Anonymous
September 7, 2004 4:44:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bruiser (noth@nks.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> You know, it might be false. I honestly can't remember where I saw it,
> perhaps on a forum somewhere. So it's conceivably bad information or an
> incorrect interpretation on my part.

My guess: on a DVD that came from a film source, there are flags that
allow the MPEG decoder to do a better job of reconstructing the original
progressive frames from the interlaced data. This is "more than is
necessary to do 480i", but it doesn't increase resolution in any way.

Also, really good external de-interlacers do a better job than the less
well-designed internal ones even without the flags to help them.

--
Jeff Rife |
SPAM bait: | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/FoxTrot/Blackboard.gif
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov |
spam@ftc.gov |
Anonymous
September 7, 2004 9:39:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jeff Rife wrote:
>> Bruiser (noth@nks.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>>> You know, it might be false. I honestly can't remember where I saw
>>> it, perhaps on a forum somewhere. So it's conceivably bad
>>> information or an incorrect interpretation on my part.
>>
>> My guess: on a DVD that came from a film source, there are flags that
>> allow the MPEG decoder to do a better job of reconstructing the
>> original progressive frames from the interlaced data. This is "more
>> than is necessary to do 480i", but it doesn't increase resolution in
>> any way.
>>
>> Also, really good external de-interlacers do a better job than the
>> less well-designed internal ones even without the flags to help them.

Jeff, I think your guess is right, now that you mention it. I just recall
something about "extra information" on the DVD, vis-a-vis de-interlacing.
September 7, 2004 5:28:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Matthew L. Martin" <nothere@notnow.never> wrote in message
news:10jps3rt2lq3l01@corp.supernews.com...
> Karyudo wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:22:07 -0700, "Bruiser" <noth@nks.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I've read that there is more information on a DVD than is needed to
output
> >>in 480i.
> >
> >
> > Out of curiosity, where did you read that? Because I think it's false.
> > There are exactly 480 lines in NTSC DVD, which I would submit is
> > exactly enough to output in 480i. Or, in the case of film material,
> > 480p. I would honestly like to learn what "more information" that
> > would help above 480i is stored on a DVD.
>
> The information stored on DVDs is 480i. It has been filtered for
> interlaced presentation. Line doubling it to 480p makes the image
> brighter and more stable than 480p. There is no more real information in
> a line doubled DVD's image.
>
> Matthew

Is this correct? If I capture video from a Direct TV signal and burn it to a
DVD using Nero and look at the disc properties in Nero it states it is
interlaced. If I do the same with a decrypted commercial DVD it states the
video is progressive. That would indicate to me that some are 480i and some
are 480p.



>
> --
> Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
> You can't win
> You can't break even
> You can't get out of the game
Anonymous
September 7, 2004 9:25:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

rg (no@way.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> If I capture video from a Direct TV signal and burn it to a
> DVD using Nero and look at the disc properties in Nero it states it is
> interlaced. If I do the same with a decrypted commercial DVD it states the
> video is progressive.

The only difference between the two is the presence of flags that tell the
decoder to repeat the previous field at times. This is possible when the
source started as progressive, but the DVD is *still* encoded using
interlaced MPEG compression, and is filtered to look acceptable when
displayed on an interlaced output device.

--
Jeff Rife |
SPAM bait: | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/ShermansLagoon/BillGatesBu...
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov |
spam@ftc.gov |
Anonymous
September 7, 2004 9:38:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

rg wrote:
> "Matthew L. Martin" <nothere@notnow.never> wrote in message
> news:10jps3rt2lq3l01@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>Karyudo wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:22:07 -0700, "Bruiser" <noth@nks.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I've read that there is more information on a DVD than is needed to
>
> output
>
>>>>in 480i.
>>>
>>>
>>>Out of curiosity, where did you read that? Because I think it's false.
>>>There are exactly 480 lines in NTSC DVD, which I would submit is
>>>exactly enough to output in 480i. Or, in the case of film material,
>>>480p. I would honestly like to learn what "more information" that
>>>would help above 480i is stored on a DVD.
>>
>>The information stored on DVDs is 480i. It has been filtered for
>>interlaced presentation. Line doubling it to 480p makes the image
>>brighter and more stable than 480p. There is no more real information in
>>a line doubled DVD's image.
>>
>>Matthew
>
>
> Is this correct? If I capture video from a Direct TV signal and burn it to a
> DVD using Nero and look at the disc properties in Nero it states it is
> interlaced. If I do the same with a decrypted commercial DVD it states the
> video is progressive. That would indicate to me that some are 480i and some
> are 480p.

The film based DVDs can be stored with the flag set to indicate 480p,
but the information must be filtered for 480i output prior to MPEG-2
encoding. DVD players do not have the filters required to make 480i from
480p.

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game
!