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Why aren't front projectors more popular?

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Anonymous
September 5, 2004 4:22:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I watched a movie on an Infocus projector a while back and I am sold. I
loved being able to change the screen size at will and the picture looked
great from all angles. Going somewhere to watch the big game. Take it with
you so everyone can watch from down the street.

I'm shelling out 400 bones to get my Hitachi 43fxd01b fixed next week. I
gotta think that if a front projector had a problem it would cost less to
fix as well.

Any thoughts?

Rick.
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 4:22:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"roost4u" <mcmurria@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:w%s_c.1084$Va5.261@trnddc01...
> I watched a movie on an Infocus projector a while back and I am sold. I
> loved being able to change the screen size at will and the picture looked
> great from all angles. Going somewhere to watch the big game. Take it with
> you so everyone can watch from down the street.
>
> I'm shelling out 400 bones to get my Hitachi 43fxd01b fixed next week. I
> gotta think that if a front projector had a problem it would cost less to
> fix as well.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Rick.

The reason is simple. Light control. Most people want more versatility
than a dedicated home theater or only using the set at night.

It is unlikely that you will get the resolution out of the Infocus projector
that you do from your Hitachi. It is also unlikely that you would get any
problem on an Infocus fixed for $400. Infocus requires that the units be
sent to them or a handfull of large servicers who fix them only by exhanging
boards. Typical repairs are more like $700-1100.

The best pix will be found in front projection systems, but they are very
expensive if you want the best quality.

Leonard
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 6:16:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Leonard Caillouet" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:4at_c.4875$aW5.1007@fed1read07...
>
> "roost4u" <mcmurria@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:w%s_c.1084$Va5.261@trnddc01...
> > I watched a movie on an Infocus projector a while back and I am sold. I
> > loved being able to change the screen size at will and the picture
looked
> > great from all angles. Going somewhere to watch the big game. Take it
with
> > you so everyone can watch from down the street.
> >
> > I'm shelling out 400 bones to get my Hitachi 43fxd01b fixed next week. I
> > gotta think that if a front projector had a problem it would cost less
to
> > fix as well.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Rick.
>
> The reason is simple. Light control. Most people want more versatility
> than a dedicated home theater or only using the set at night.
>
> It is unlikely that you will get the resolution out of the Infocus
projector
> that you do from your Hitachi. It is also unlikely that you would get any
> problem on an Infocus fixed for $400. Infocus requires that the units be
> sent to them or a handfull of large servicers who fix them only by
exhanging
> boards. Typical repairs are more like $700-1100.
>
> The best pix will be found in front projection systems, but they are very
> expensive if you want the best quality.
>
> Leonard
>
>

Not trying to argue with you but the projector that I watched only cost 1000
dollars so I don't see how they could cost that much to repair. Unless of
course you would be talking about full replacement. Lucky for me though I
live near Infocus.

Rick.
Related resources
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 6:16:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"roost4u" <mcmurria@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:KcF_c.1985$PK3.992@trnddc08...
> Not trying to argue with you but the projector that I watched only cost
1000
> dollars so I don't see how they could cost that much to repair. Unless of
> course you would be talking about full replacement. Lucky for me though I
> live near Infocus.
>
> Rick.

No need to argue, just do your homework before buying. You will find that
Infocus does not support repair by anyone other than themselves and a
handful of large servicers who do only board level repair. They will not
even sell the parts for anyone else to repair their products. Ask them what
the prices for the boards are and their minimum labor charge is. Last I
checked it was minimum $175 labor plus the cost of the board(s) plus the
shipping charges. Chances are they will want to replace the lamp while it
is in for repair whether it needs it or not.

That $1000 projector is not even close to the performance of a decent CRT
based RPTV for a few hundred more, as I said.

I love front projection sets, and have been working on them, selling them
and installing them since 1979, but like anything else, they vary greatly in
performance and they have to be selected as appropriate for the application.

Leonard
September 5, 2004 6:30:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Leonard Caillouet" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:4at_c.4875$aW5.1007@fed1read07...

>
> The reason is simple. Light control. Most people want more versatility
> than a dedicated home theater or only using the set at night.
>
> It is unlikely that you will get the resolution out of the Infocus
> projector
> that you do from your Hitachi. It is also unlikely that you would get any
> problem on an Infocus fixed for $400. Infocus requires that the units be
> sent to them or a handfull of large servicers who fix them only by
> exhanging
> boards. Typical repairs are more like $700-1100.
>
> The best pix will be found in front projection systems, but they are very
> expensive if you want the best quality.
>
> Leonard
>

how bright is bright enough for day time use? i borrowed my friends 2200
lumen NEC projector and just used a white wall and it wasn't TOO bad, but
it's my understanding using a real screen amplifies the light return. I'm
considering one for my next TV as well since my 53" Sony XBR is close to 10
years old now.
September 5, 2004 7:39:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:30:33 GMT, "Rob" <rob@nospam.com> wrote:

>"Leonard Caillouet" <no@no.com> wrote in message
>news:4at_c.4875$aW5.1007@fed1read07...
>>
>> The reason is simple. Light control. Most people want more versatility
>> than a dedicated home theater or only using the set at night.
>
>how bright is bright enough for day time use?

Forget about "daytime use" of a front-projector. Imagine how white a
projector screen looks in a well-lit room. Now, understand that that
white color is the darkest "black" that you be able to obtain while
using a front projector.

Front-projectors are really only for dedicated movie viewing, IMO,
because the room MUST be dark.
Anonymous
September 6, 2004 2:26:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I have had a front projectors since the 1978 and would have nothing
else. I started with a Kloss Novabeam and now have a Mits 3 gun CRT.
Both lasted about 13 years. The Mits smoked 3 weeks ago but still
works OK but not as bright. My next will be a LCD front projector
(soon). Yes, they are a lot dimmer than direct view, but we watch
mainly at night anyway. The set is in the livingroom that has a lot of
light. The screen is electric and rolls up under the curtain valance.
The projector is buried in the coffee table. When you walk into our
house, there is no clue that we have a media room.
I don't think the new ones will last like a CRT.

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 00:22:52 GMT, "roost4u" <mcmurria@verizon.net>
wrote:

>I watched a movie on an Infocus projector a while back and I am sold. I
>loved being able to change the screen size at will and the picture looked
>great from all angles. Going somewhere to watch the big game. Take it with
>you so everyone can watch from down the street.
>
>I'm shelling out 400 bones to get my Hitachi 43fxd01b fixed next week. I
>gotta think that if a front projector had a problem it would cost less to
>fix as well.
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Rick.
>
Anonymous
September 6, 2004 2:26:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Wow, 13 years out of a Novabeam? You were very lucky. Those old CRTs with
the Schmidt optics were great in terms of center focus, but the ones that
Kloss made in those days just would not last. I can remember changing
hundreds of them, literally hundreds.

Look at the better DLP projectors. They beat the LCDs easily and don't have
the problems with the panels that LCDs have.

Leonard


"klaatu" <blobnospam@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:vienj0psjfv8d8vdrmq88jlvv15uq7o7po@4ax.com...
> I have had a front projectors since the 1978 and would have nothing
> else. I started with a Kloss Novabeam and now have a Mits 3 gun CRT.
> Both lasted about 13 years. The Mits smoked 3 weeks ago but still
> works OK but not as bright. My next will be a LCD front projector
> (soon). Yes, they are a lot dimmer than direct view, but we watch
> mainly at night anyway. The set is in the livingroom that has a lot of
> light. The screen is electric and rolls up under the curtain valance.
> The projector is buried in the coffee table. When you walk into our
> house, there is no clue that we have a media room.
> I don't think the new ones will last like a CRT.
>
> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 00:22:52 GMT, "roost4u" <mcmurria@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I watched a movie on an Infocus projector a while back and I am sold. I
> >loved being able to change the screen size at will and the picture looked
> >great from all angles. Going somewhere to watch the big game. Take it
with
> >you so everyone can watch from down the street.
> >
> >I'm shelling out 400 bones to get my Hitachi 43fxd01b fixed next week. I
> >gotta think that if a front projector had a problem it would cost less to
> >fix as well.
> >
> >Any thoughts?
> >
> >Rick.
> >
>
Anonymous
September 6, 2004 4:05:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

To be honest, yes, I did have to get 2 new tubes in that time. Also,
the picture was very dim at the end. The parapolic screen is what
helped the Novabeam. Thanks for the DLP tip. I will keep looking.

On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:07:04 -0400, "Leonard Caillouet" <no@no.com>
wrote:

>Wow, 13 years out of a Novabeam? You were very lucky. Those old CRTs with
>the Schmidt optics were great in terms of center focus, but the ones that
>Kloss made in those days just would not last. I can remember changing
>hundreds of them, literally hundreds.
>
>Look at the better DLP projectors. They beat the LCDs easily and don't have
>the problems with the panels that LCDs have.
>
>Leonard
>
>
>"klaatu" <blobnospam@optonline.net> wrote in message
>news:vienj0psjfv8d8vdrmq88jlvv15uq7o7po@4ax.com...
>> I have had a front projectors since the 1978 and would have nothing
>> else. I started with a Kloss Novabeam and now have a Mits 3 gun CRT.
>> Both lasted about 13 years. The Mits smoked 3 weeks ago but still
>> works OK but not as bright. My next will be a LCD front projector
>> (soon). Yes, they are a lot dimmer than direct view, but we watch
>> mainly at night anyway. The set is in the livingroom that has a lot of
>> light. The screen is electric and rolls up under the curtain valance.
>> The projector is buried in the coffee table. When you walk into our
>> house, there is no clue that we have a media room.
>> I don't think the new ones will last like a CRT.
>>
>> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 00:22:52 GMT, "roost4u" <mcmurria@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I watched a movie on an Infocus projector a while back and I am sold. I
>> >loved being able to change the screen size at will and the picture looked
>> >great from all angles. Going somewhere to watch the big game. Take it
>with
>> >you so everyone can watch from down the street.
>> >
>> >I'm shelling out 400 bones to get my Hitachi 43fxd01b fixed next week. I
>> >gotta think that if a front projector had a problem it would cost less to
>> >fix as well.
>> >
>> >Any thoughts?
>> >
>> >Rick.
>> >
>>
>
Anonymous
September 7, 2004 4:12:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Besides the light control issue, I think it's too much of a hassle for the
average Joe (who never figured out how to program his VCR).
When you explain that they've got to run a video cable to the projector etc.
they start to glaze over.

After drooling over CRT projectors for years I think the new technology has
caught up. I recently bought the new InFocus 4805, a DLP projector that for
$1,400, really rocks. It's only EDTV but that step up to true HDTV runs over
twice that price. It can display all the pixels off a DVD and that's mainly
what I use it for (althought the Olympics in HD looked great too).

klaatu I'd urge you to check one of these out, you'll be pleasantly
surprized. I've done a lot of homework on this unit and it's really an
incredible bargain.



"klaatu" <blobnospam@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:j2lnj0tnsnonpcavbehk02m8as87ookitm@4ax.com...
> To be honest, yes, I did have to get 2 new tubes in that time. Also,
> the picture was very dim at the end. The parapolic screen is what
> helped the Novabeam. Thanks for the DLP tip. I will keep looking.
>
> On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:07:04 -0400, "Leonard Caillouet" <no@no.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Wow, 13 years out of a Novabeam? You were very lucky. Those old CRTs
with
> >the Schmidt optics were great in terms of center focus, but the ones that
> >Kloss made in those days just would not last. I can remember changing
> >hundreds of them, literally hundreds.
> >
> >Look at the better DLP projectors. They beat the LCDs easily and don't
have
> >the problems with the panels that LCDs have.
> >
> >Leonard
> >
> >
> >"klaatu" <blobnospam@optonline.net> wrote in message
> >news:vienj0psjfv8d8vdrmq88jlvv15uq7o7po@4ax.com...
> >> I have had a front projectors since the 1978 and would have nothing
> >> else. I started with a Kloss Novabeam and now have a Mits 3 gun CRT.
> >> Both lasted about 13 years. The Mits smoked 3 weeks ago but still
> >> works OK but not as bright. My next will be a LCD front projector
> >> (soon). Yes, they are a lot dimmer than direct view, but we watch
> >> mainly at night anyway. The set is in the livingroom that has a lot of
> >> light. The screen is electric and rolls up under the curtain valance.
> >> The projector is buried in the coffee table. When you walk into our
> >> house, there is no clue that we have a media room.
> >> I don't think the new ones will last like a CRT.
> >>
> >> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 00:22:52 GMT, "roost4u" <mcmurria@verizon.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I watched a movie on an Infocus projector a while back and I am sold.
I
> >> >loved being able to change the screen size at will and the picture
looked
> >> >great from all angles. Going somewhere to watch the big game. Take it
> >with
> >> >you so everyone can watch from down the street.
> >> >
> >> >I'm shelling out 400 bones to get my Hitachi 43fxd01b fixed next week.
I
> >> >gotta think that if a front projector had a problem it would cost less
to
> >> >fix as well.
> >> >
> >> >Any thoughts?
> >> >
> >> >Rick.
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
September 7, 2004 4:25:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 00:12:46 GMT, "Candy Baby" <candy@hotbod.com>
wrote:

>After drooling over CRT projectors for years I think the new technology has
>caught up. I recently bought the new InFocus 4805, a DLP projector that for
>$1,400, really rocks. It's only EDTV but that step up to true HDTV runs over
>twice that price. It can display all the pixels off a DVD and that's mainly
>what I use it for (althought the Olympics in HD looked great too).
>
>klaatu I'd urge you to check one of these out, you'll be pleasantly
>surprized. I've done a lot of homework on this unit and it's really an
>incredible bargain.

I think a really nice way to go, for many people, is a conventional
4:3 CRT, for general TV viewing, with a projector like the one you
mention, along with a screen that pulls-down in front of the TV, for
movies.
September 7, 2004 7:10:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Candy Baby" <candy@hotbod.com> wrote in message
news:227%c.144069$mD.54163@attbi_s02...


> After drooling over CRT projectors for years I think the new
technology has
> caught up.

It's hard for me to believe someone who has drooled over a CRT
projector can believe that any Digital projector has caught up. Maybe
the 30000 dollar plus PJ's are damn close, but none are really there
yet. Granted CRT's are BIG and HEAVY, and they are not user friendly,
but the picture quality is still superior to all the new technologies.
This is unfortunate, because I would love to have a little projector
hidden in the wall of my house, but it's not to be.

Clay
Anonymous
September 7, 2004 8:27:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Candy Baby wrote:
> The CRT will fall like all old technology.
>

I beleive the point is "will fall", not "has fallen".

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game
Anonymous
September 7, 2004 10:05:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 03:10:49 GMT, "Badger"
<cferriola@1removenumbers2triad.3rr.4com> wrote:

>
>"Candy Baby" <candy@hotbod.com> wrote in message
>news:227%c.144069$mD.54163@attbi_s02...
>
>
>> After drooling over CRT projectors for years I think the new
>technology has
>> caught up.
>
>It's hard for me to believe someone who has drooled over a CRT
>projector can believe that any Digital projector has caught up. Maybe
>the 30000 dollar plus PJ's are damn close, but none are really there
>yet. Granted CRT's are BIG and HEAVY, and they are not user friendly,
>but the picture quality is still superior to all the new technologies.
>This is unfortunate, because I would love to have a little projector
>hidden in the wall of my house, but it's not to be.
>
>Clay
>

I read not long ago they may be perfecting a DLP projector for the
movie theaters. That would be nice if they did. Something about it
using a special HD type disk similar to a DVD but physically larger.

hdtvfan
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 3:32:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I have both a BarcoData 800 as well as a Sharp PG-M20X DLP projector.
They are both configured for a 168" screen. The DLP obviously produces
a much brighter picture at the expense of the mirror structure. The
Barco picture is not as bright but produces an image that is much more
detailed. I can also throw a 16MM film image on the same screen and it
blows both of them away.

For me its the same reason I have several cars. The Accord is a
beater, the Allroad the hauler, the Crown Vic for comfort and the
LeSabre convertible for fun. Everything has strong and weak points.

I like having both kinds of technology. DLP is great for watching when
I need the brighness (a 2-1/2 story room with tons of windows is real
hard to darken) and the CRT when the light levels are lower and I want
to have more of a film-like image....



"Candy Baby" <candy@hotbod.com> wrote in message news:<2Va%c.145073$mD.6305@attbi_s02>...
> The CRT will fall like all old technology.
> There's always a group left pining for the analog-warmth of LPs, the
> alleged extra depth of film.
> People have a special experience with a product (Badger I bet you were
> the man, with your 3 big lenses flickering in the dark) and hold on to
> it.
> Much like a junkie trying to re-experience his very first shot.
>
> Others are not afraid of the new. They keep their eyes, ears, and
> especially minds open.
> They feel the rush again and again
>
>
>
> "Badger" <cferriola@1removenumbers2triad.3rr.4com> wrote in message
> news:ZE9%c.199$qg4.22396@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> >
> > "Candy Baby" <candy@hotbod.com> wrote in message
> > news:227%c.144069$mD.54163@attbi s02...
> >
> >
> > > After drooling over CRT projectors for years I think the new
> technology has
> > > caught up.
> >
> > It's hard for me to believe someone who has drooled over a CRT
> > projector can believe that any Digital projector has caught up. Maybe
> > the 30000 dollar plus PJ's are damn close, but none are really there
> > yet. Granted CRT's are BIG and HEAVY, and they are not user friendly,
> > but the picture quality is still superior to all the new technologies.
> > This is unfortunate, because I would love to have a little projector
> > hidden in the wall of my house, but it's not to be.
> >
> > Clay
> >
> >
> --
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 9:39:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I don't like the fan noise. The projector is located close to the
viewers unless you have a separated sound insulated projection room.

"roost4u" <mcmurria@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<w%s_c.1084$Va5.261@trnddc01>...
> I watched a movie on an Infocus projector a while back and I am sold.
> Any thoughts?
>
> Rick.
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 11:47:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Badger wrote:
> Contrast ratios and Blackness are not exactly the same thing. I said
> nothing of figures, other than weights. CRT's can go nearly black,
> DLP's cannot.

Preface for those that do not understand contrast ratio. A projector's
contrast ratio is typically measure by aiming a projector at a special
screen that has several dozen light meters embedded in it. A full-white
picture is then displayed, and measured, followed by a full-black picture.
For the HP xb31 projector, the lumen measurements turns out to be:

- full-on : 1500 lumens
- full-off : 0.83 lumens

The ratio of full-on to full-off determines the contrast ratio, which for
the
xb31 turns out to be 1800:1 Another version of this test uses a black-white
checkboard pattern, but it generally results in a lesser number, so it
doesn't
get quoted much. Most of the lumens still observed in the full-off situation
come from light scatter in the optical assembly, and the inability of the
light
modulator (value) to completely reflect (DLP) or block (LCD) light away
from the screen.

Anyhow, the "blackness" issue relates to unwanted light showing up in a
pixel-off or full-off situation.

I'll disagree with Clay somewhat by noting that all the projector
technologies/
vendors have pushed the lumens and contrast ratio numbers into respectable
territory (1000-2000 lumens; 1500-3000:1 contast ratio), and effort is now
being applied to getting the blacks blacker. I can think of two innovations
for
DLP projectors alone that have been released into product in the past year
that help get the blacks blacker. At two years old, the xb31's 0.83 full-off
lumen rating is no longer impressive.

> ... CRT's can currently reproduce greater detail in darker scenes, and
shades
> of colors ...

I can think of at least one innovation shipped in DLP projectors just
recently
that directly addresses the darker scene detail issue.

Thomas Gilg
September 9, 2004 5:09:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Thomas, you've really made my point for me. I never said digital won't
take over, it will. It's just not quite there yet.
Believe me when it happens and I can afford it I will be in line
beside you to buy one.
For now I'll keep my CRT. Incidentally, it has a contrast ratio of
15000 to 1. It's a middle of the road CRT.
Clay

"news.cup.hp.com" <thomasDELME_gilgDELME@hpDELME.com> wrote in message
news:MlJ%c.10063$E84.3005@news.cpqcorp.net...
> Badger wrote:
> > Contrast ratios and Blackness are not exactly the same thing. I
said
> > nothing of figures, other than weights. CRT's can go nearly black,
> > DLP's cannot.
>
> Preface for those that do not understand contrast ratio. A
projector's
> contrast ratio is typically measure by aiming a projector at a
special
> screen that has several dozen light meters embedded in it. A
full-white
> picture is then displayed, and measured, followed by a full-black
picture.
> For the HP xb31 projector, the lumen measurements turns out to be:
>
> - full-on : 1500 lumens
> - full-off : 0.83 lumens
>
> The ratio of full-on to full-off determines the contrast ratio,
which for
> the
> xb31 turns out to be 1800:1 Another version of this test uses a
black-white
> checkboard pattern, but it generally results in a lesser number, so
it
> doesn't
> get quoted much. Most of the lumens still observed in the full-off
situation
> come from light scatter in the optical assembly, and the inability
of the
> light
> modulator (value) to completely reflect (DLP) or block (LCD) light
away
> from the screen.
>
> Anyhow, the "blackness" issue relates to unwanted light showing up
in a
> pixel-off or full-off situation.
>
> I'll disagree with Clay somewhat by noting that all the projector
> technologies/
> vendors have pushed the lumens and contrast ratio numbers into
respectable
> territory (1000-2000 lumens; 1500-3000:1 contast ratio), and effort
is now
> being applied to getting the blacks blacker. I can think of two
innovations
> for
> DLP projectors alone that have been released into product in the
past year
> that help get the blacks blacker. At two years old, the xb31's 0.83
full-off
> lumen rating is no longer impressive.
>
> > ... CRT's can currently reproduce greater detail in darker scenes,
and
> shades
> > of colors ...
>
> I can think of at least one innovation shipped in DLP projectors
just
> recently
> that directly addresses the darker scene detail issue.
>
> Thomas Gilg
>
>
Anonymous
September 9, 2004 6:15:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Kinda fun to watch Badger backsliding as this tread goes on. AVS is
discussing this now and CRT is going down!


"Badger" <cferriola@1removenumbers2triad.3rr.4com> wrote in message
news:73O%c.2731$lK5.190813@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> Thomas, you've really made my point for me. I never said digital won't
> take over, it will. It's just not quite there yet.
> Believe me when it happens and I can afford it I will be in line
> beside you to buy one.
> For now I'll keep my CRT. Incidentally, it has a contrast ratio of
> 15000 to 1. It's a middle of the road CRT.
> Clay
>
> "news.cup.hp.com" <thomasDELME_gilgDELME@hpDELME.com> wrote in message
> news:MlJ%c.10063$E84.3005@news.cpqcorp.net...
> > Badger wrote:
> > > Contrast ratios and Blackness are not exactly the same thing. I
> said
> > > nothing of figures, other than weights. CRT's can go nearly black,
> > > DLP's cannot.
> >
> > Preface for those that do not understand contrast ratio. A
> projector's
> > contrast ratio is typically measure by aiming a projector at a
> special
> > screen that has several dozen light meters embedded in it. A
> full-white
> > picture is then displayed, and measured, followed by a full-black
> picture.
> > For the HP xb31 projector, the lumen measurements turns out to be:
> >
> > - full-on : 1500 lumens
> > - full-off : 0.83 lumens
> >
> > The ratio of full-on to full-off determines the contrast ratio,
> which for
> > the
> > xb31 turns out to be 1800:1 Another version of this test uses a
> black-white
> > checkboard pattern, but it generally results in a lesser number, so
> it
> > doesn't
> > get quoted much. Most of the lumens still observed in the full-off
> situation
> > come from light scatter in the optical assembly, and the inability
> of the
> > light
> > modulator (value) to completely reflect (DLP) or block (LCD) light
> away
> > from the screen.
> >
> > Anyhow, the "blackness" issue relates to unwanted light showing up
> in a
> > pixel-off or full-off situation.
> >
> > I'll disagree with Clay somewhat by noting that all the projector
> > technologies/
> > vendors have pushed the lumens and contrast ratio numbers into
> respectable
> > territory (1000-2000 lumens; 1500-3000:1 contast ratio), and effort
> is now
> > being applied to getting the blacks blacker. I can think of two
> innovations
> > for
> > DLP projectors alone that have been released into product in the
> past year
> > that help get the blacks blacker. At two years old, the xb31's 0.83
> full-off
> > lumen rating is no longer impressive.
> >
> > > ... CRT's can currently reproduce greater detail in darker scenes,
> and
> > shades
> > > of colors ...
> >
> > I can think of at least one innovation shipped in DLP projectors
> just
> > recently
> > that directly addresses the darker scene detail issue.
> >
> > Thomas Gilg
> >
> >
>
>
September 9, 2004 3:09:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Show me once where I said CRT wasn't going down. It will eventually ,
the key word is WILL, not CRT is gone. I don't believe I contradicted
my points anywhere either.


Clay



"Candy Baby" <candy@hotbod.com> wrote in message
news:G0P%c.160729$mD.43151@attbi_s02...
> Kinda fun to watch Badger backsliding as this tread goes on. AVS is
> discussing this now and CRT is going down!
>
>
> "Badger" <cferriola@1removenumbers2triad.3rr.4com> wrote in message
> news:73O%c.2731$lK5.190813@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> > Thomas, you've really made my point for me. I never said digital
won't
> > take over, it will. It's just not quite there yet.
> > Believe me when it happens and I can afford it I will be in line
> > beside you to buy one.
> > For now I'll keep my CRT. Incidentally, it has a contrast ratio of
> > 15000 to 1. It's a middle of the road CRT.
> > Clay
> >
> > "news.cup.hp.com" <thomasDELME_gilgDELME@hpDELME.com> wrote in
message
> > news:MlJ%c.10063$E84.3005@news.cpqcorp.net...
> > > Badger wrote:
> > > > Contrast ratios and Blackness are not exactly the same thing.
I
> > said
> > > > nothing of figures, other than weights. CRT's can go nearly
black,
> > > > DLP's cannot.
> > >
> > > Preface for those that do not understand contrast ratio. A
> > projector's
> > > contrast ratio is typically measure by aiming a projector at a
> > special
> > > screen that has several dozen light meters embedded in it. A
> > full-white
> > > picture is then displayed, and measured, followed by a
full-black
> > picture.
> > > For the HP xb31 projector, the lumen measurements turns out to
be:
> > >
> > > - full-on : 1500 lumens
> > > - full-off : 0.83 lumens
> > >
> > > The ratio of full-on to full-off determines the contrast ratio,
> > which for
> > > the
> > > xb31 turns out to be 1800:1 Another version of this test uses a
> > black-white
> > > checkboard pattern, but it generally results in a lesser number,
so
> > it
> > > doesn't
> > > get quoted much. Most of the lumens still observed in the
full-off
> > situation
> > > come from light scatter in the optical assembly, and the
inability
> > of the
> > > light
> > > modulator (value) to completely reflect (DLP) or block (LCD)
light
> > away
> > > from the screen.
> > >
> > > Anyhow, the "blackness" issue relates to unwanted light showing
up
> > in a
> > > pixel-off or full-off situation.
> > >
> > > I'll disagree with Clay somewhat by noting that all the
projector
> > > technologies/
> > > vendors have pushed the lumens and contrast ratio numbers into
> > respectable
> > > territory (1000-2000 lumens; 1500-3000:1 contast ratio), and
effort
> > is now
> > > being applied to getting the blacks blacker. I can think of two
> > innovations
> > > for
> > > DLP projectors alone that have been released into product in the
> > past year
> > > that help get the blacks blacker. At two years old, the xb31's
0.83
> > full-off
> > > lumen rating is no longer impressive.
> > >
> > > > ... CRT's can currently reproduce greater detail in darker
scenes,
> > and
> > > shades
> > > > of colors ...
> > >
> > > I can think of at least one innovation shipped in DLP projectors
> > just
> > > recently
> > > that directly addresses the darker scene detail issue.
> > >
> > > Thomas Gilg
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
September 14, 2004 9:03:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"dizzy" <dizzy@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:6pcmj0di0pfmphjj520f9o4s1r159g2h4b@4ax.com...
> projector screen looks in a well-lit room. Now, understand that that
> white color is the darkest "black" that you be able to obtain while
> using a front projector.

Wow, that right there is the number 1 reason why I will wait on a projector
until I have a dedicated dark theater room. Never really thought of the
before.

Thanks,
--Dan
Anonymous
January 28, 2005 1:01:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

dizzy wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:30:33 GMT, "Rob" <rob@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>"Leonard Caillouet" <no@no.com> wrote in message
>>news:4at_c.4875$aW5.1007@fed1read07...
>>
>>>The reason is simple. Light control. Most people want more versatility
>>>than a dedicated home theater or only using the set at night.
>>
>>how bright is bright enough for day time use?
>
>
> Forget about "daytime use" of a front-projector. Imagine how white a
> projector screen looks in a well-lit room. Now, understand that that
> white color is the darkest "black" that you be able to obtain while
> using a front projector.
>
> Front-projectors are really only for dedicated movie viewing, IMO,
> because the room MUST be dark.
>
The white you see on the screen with the lights on is not the same as
the blackest black you will see with the lights off. The area that is
black in a video on that screen will be receiving NO light or a small
amount of light that is diffused by the air, dust in the air or the
projectors inability to not throw some light even in the blackest
represented area. In your scenario with the whole room lit all of the
white screen is receiving maximum light. That is why in a DLP projector
they have to work so hard to make sure all the deflected light from the
mirrors is absorbed somewhere and doesn't find its way into the image path.

It would be just as untrue to say that the "white color" of the screen
is the "darkest black" you will be able to see if all the lights in the
room are off and the projector is off to. In that case the whitest
screen will be TOTALLY black. But that scenario is closer to the truth
then your representation. The real truth is somewhere in the middle and
closer to black than white.

Now they are inventing "black" screens that will absorb any or most
light that is not coming from the "correct" angle represented by the
projector. in that case the "black" screen ( which will not be black)
will do an even better job of not reflecting light that it is not
supposed to reflect.

Bob Miller
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 3:05:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

> dizzy wrote:
>> Forget about "daytime use" of a front-projector. Imagine how white a
>> projector screen looks in a well-lit room. Now, understand that that
>> white color is the darkest "black" that you be able to obtain while
>> using a front projector.
>>
>> Front-projectors are really only for dedicated movie viewing, IMO,
>> because the room MUST be dark.

Not true anymore. I have a Sony HS-20 LCD projector and I can watch HDTV
programs with some decent daylight in the room and the image is still
bright. There are plenty of PJs with great lumen ratings with fantastic
contrast ratio specs and they work well in naturally lit rooms. Of course
they look better at night too, but that's true for any TV! The only thing I
have to avoid is DIRECT sunlight on the screen.

borromini
January 31, 2005 6:16:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"borromini" <asdf@asdf.com> wrote in message
news:3DeLd.9321$8Z1.9316@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...

>
> Not true anymore. I have a Sony HS-20 LCD projector and I can watch
HDTV
> programs with some decent daylight in the room and the image is
still
> bright.
>
> borromini
>
>

True, even in the dark scenes!
Clay
!