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G84/G86 Tidbit

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March 9, 2007 6:37:07 PM

Apologies if this has been posted already.

Link

No HDCP and no native HDMI. WTF!!

More about : g84 g86 tidbit

a b U Graphics card
March 10, 2007 1:38:18 AM

I didn't post it but I did see it and my reaction was pretty much the same as yours, especially after all the hoopla nV made about a year ago over the native HDCP support of future nV chips. Commenting on how external HDCP encoding support was a weakness of ATi. Here's slides from that PR/FUD;




The G80 having external I/O [tmds, hdcp,etc] made sense to ensure timely arrival to market, and allow a smaller core, but on the low end, seems they've totally abandoned what they were preaching last summer about shipping support in all future cards. :roll:
a b U Graphics card
March 10, 2007 2:01:20 AM

damn technoligy :x :lol: 

i just got an 8800 and havent even got a chance to mess with it much.
still using the dvi to rgb adaptor.

going to try direct dvi this weekend.

oh g.w. called me earlier, am going to meet him at a lan tommorow.
:lol: 
Related resources
March 10, 2007 2:02:33 AM

I'm just glad my card supports HDCP.
a b U Graphics card
March 10, 2007 2:05:50 AM

Quote:
I'm just glad my card supports HDCP.


thats what im talking about.

dont know or think i can use it with a dvi to rgb adaptor.
i do have a dvi cable but it is on my hd tv and dont want
unhook it.

but im going get one from my moms house this weekend and try it.
a b U Graphics card
March 10, 2007 2:41:49 AM

Quote:

oh g.w. called me earlier, am going to meet him at a lan tommorow.
:lol: 


SWEET dude, frag him once or twice for me. Even if he's on your team. :twisted:
a b U Graphics card
March 10, 2007 2:43:43 AM

Quote:
I'm just glad my card supports HDCP.


Just not with Dual-Link!
HAha it sucks!

JK :twisted:
March 12, 2007 7:04:17 PM

So does this mean it will be up to individual card makers to add HDCP to the board? I'm guessing that's how it works otherwise kiss any Windows Vista "Premium" content (HD) goodbye.
March 12, 2007 7:28:23 PM

Quote:
G84 supports 3840x2400 resolution

Geforce 8600 GTS / GT have the power
It looks like that resolutions are doomed to grow. An average gamer plays on the 19 inch 1280x1024 display, some lucky ones have 1650x1080 resolutions on their big wide sceens and only a few rich ones can afford a 30 inch display and pay up to $2000 for 2650x1600 resolution.
The new Nvidia card will let you play at 3840 × 2400 but only at 30 Hz which is two times 1900x1200 resolution. I am not aware of any display or device that can bennefit from this Dual link DVI-I output but obviously there will be a purpouse for such a resolution. It is a cool pixel number but un cool refresh rate as you need at least 60 Hz to make your eyes feel good.
In worst case scenario it is a nice tick box feature, that you can state on the box and impress anyone.
http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&ta...
March 12, 2007 9:31:22 PM

Read carefully:
Quote:
All G84 and G86 except G84-P400 would have no HDCP and native HDMI support on this release.


G84-P400 (8600GTS) will have HDCP and HDMI right away, and a later G84-305 will get it too.
a b U Graphics card
March 12, 2007 11:35:18 PM

Quote:
So does this mean it will be up to individual card makers to add HDCP to the board? I'm guessing that's how it works otherwise kiss any Windows Vista "Premium" content (HD) goodbye.


Yep, and with the external I/O module like the GF8800 it will be somewhat simple, but still more expensive per card than including it in the die. Overall nV would save money if they think a large enough number of users (greater than the majority IMO) won't care about HDCP/HDMI, which is likely the case.
Now they could simply return to the old method like ATi or the G72, but it is funny in light of their previous statments.


a b U Graphics card
March 12, 2007 11:52:45 PM

Quote:
G84 supports 3840x2400 resolution

Geforce 8600 GTS / GT have the power


You obviously don't know what I'm talking about when I say "DualLink HDCP" support, by reposting Fuad's comments. He's talking about the limits of Dual-Link, which technically has always been available if the VPU makers wanted to support such a resolution. I'm talking about the HDCP on the dual-link signal which is the subject here.

And no the GF8600 doesn't have the power to do anything more than 2D and rudementary workstation 3D at that resolution especially with 128bit memory, no gaming at that resolution, other than minesweeper and chess.
a b U Graphics card
March 13, 2007 12:09:59 AM

Quote:
Read carefully:
All G84 and G86 except G84-P400 would have no HDCP and native HDMI support on this release.


G84-P400 (8600GTS) will have HDCP and HDMI right away, and a later G84-305 will get it too.

Understand carefully, we get the 'selectivity' of HDCP, however you miss the PR crap of the previous generation as to HDCP, including the hyping of the GX2 being the first universal HDCP part, and this being the future of nV's products, which is obviously not the case.

Just like Dual-Link DVI in the past, how many people do you think are going to know which is which if all they have is a generic online description, similar to the issues with the GF7300/7600/7900GS-H versions, and ATi's selective X1300 and X1600s, with later integrated support in the X1650XT and X1950Pro/GT.

All the hype of the end of the last generation was HDCP, now the mid-range of the GF8600 turns it back into the 'supports HDCP' fiasco;

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_nvidia_hdcp_sup...

It didn't really matter when the article was written, but now it's definitely becoming more relevant with the content being out there already.
March 13, 2007 12:30:24 AM

This is really annoying. I've got my main PC built fine, but I'm looking to build my first HTPC. The E4300 is great for this - very cool - but the graphics maufacturers are dragging their heels. We were all supposed to have our PCs running all household media by the start of this century, and whilst I don't follwo those timescales, I'm still thwarted by issues such as this.

Frustrating.
a b U Graphics card
March 13, 2007 12:43:33 AM

Yeah, l know, it didn't matter last year when this story broke, but now, it's a big deal.

My personal nuisance on this is I can't get information from any of the laptop builders on which GFGO7600GS or GFGO7900GS they have in their rigs, and the level of HDCP support. Because I want external BLuRay and the Xbox HD-DVD, and they need HDCP chaing for full resolution playback. It's a pain to have to track this stuff, down and I know what I'm looking for, but the PR guys (especially HP and Gateway) just don't know crap about their hardware.

So I'd prefer to know all of XYZ supports HDCP rather than X, but not Y and Z and you guess which is which; therefore you have to hunt for support.
March 13, 2007 1:12:28 AM

Quote:

oh g.w. called me earlier, am going to meet him at a lan tommorow.
:lol: 


wth! I wasnt invited?? your so fired! there's the door :arrow: :arrow:
a b U Graphics card
March 13, 2007 1:18:11 AM

Quote:
And no the GF8600 doesn't have the power to do anything more than 2D and rudementary workstation 3D at that resolution especially with 128bit memory, no gaming at that resolution, other than minesweeper and chess.

Soon find out if the 8800GTS can handle 38x10.
a b U Graphics card
March 13, 2007 1:52:07 AM

Quote:

Soon find out if the 8800GTS can handle 38x10.


Yep, although the 320bit memory should be a little more useful 8)

BTW, be sure to keep some Visine handy, I have a feeling you're gonna need it.
March 13, 2007 1:56:03 AM

HDCP is bullshit anyway, along with the whole Protected Video Path crap.

We are being sold items on the basis of HDCP support, a "feature" that does not benefit us in any way, it benefits movie studios.

I'll be using my DVI repeater and/or AnyDVD HD to strip HDCP thanks :) 

Anyone notice that the need for protected audio path drivers in vista has made Plantronics USB headsets sound like shit under vista? *Sigh* I dont even USE hd content and I'm screwed by hollywood.
a b U Graphics card
March 13, 2007 2:10:30 AM

Quote:
HDCP is bullshit anyway, along with the whole Protected Video Path crap.

We are being sold items on the basis of HDCP support, a "feature" that does not benefit us in any way, it benefits movie studios.


You miss my point obviously. I'm NOT pro-DRM I just know what I need in order to do what I want to do.

Quote:
I'll be using my DVI repeater and/or AnyDVD HD to strip HDCP thanks :) 


OK, however are you implying I should rip my 30-50GB HDDVDs to my laptop instead of simply playing them on the extremely cheap Xbox HD-DVD player. That really gets tedious after a while. I already rip DVD and CDs at will, but I also pay for them, and until BR and HD media is cheap I don't care about AnyDVD other than as a proof of concept, HD space is too precious. It's just like CDs and DVDs before them. I have usually been ahead of the curve, and it's never been practical to copy them at first. I might rip a movie occasionally, but that'll likely be for when I travel and I'd rather leave the HD-DVD player behind.

Quote:
Anyone notice that the need for protected audio path drivers in vista has made Plantronics USB headsets sound like **** under vista? *Sigh* I dont even USE hd content and I'm screwed by hollywood.


Well I don't bother with Vista because of DRM, but regardless of program you need and HD drive if you want free access to the HD content without the hassle. SO instead of monkeying around, I'd rather simply keep all the options open to me.
a b U Graphics card
March 13, 2007 2:30:32 AM

Quote:

oh g.w. called me earlier, am going to meet him at a lan tommorow.
:lol: 


wth! I wasnt invited?? your so fired! there's the door :arrow: :arrow:

g.w. broke my $hit

**he isnt around is he** :lol: 

just hooked my computer up and got through with
yakin on the phone with m$=windows activation :x

i might have jarred my pc and fukced my hdd
leaving the lan party.

it appears to be dead :x
March 13, 2007 2:42:58 AM

Quote:
I'll be using my DVI repeater and/or AnyDVD HD to strip HDCP thanks :) 


OK, however are you implying I should rip my 30-50GB HDDVDs to my laptop instead of simply playing them on the extremely cheap Xbox HD-DVD player. That really gets tedious after a while. I already rip DVD and CDs at will, but I also pay for them, and until BR and HD media is cheap I don't care about AnyDVD other than as a proof of concept, HD space is too precious. It's just like CDs and DVDs before them. I have usually been ahead of the curve, and it's never been practical to copy them at first. I might rip a movie occasionally, but that'll likely be for when I travel and I'd rather leave the HD-DVD player behind.

AnyDVD HD allows the playback of protected HD-DVDs on non-HDCP compliant hardware directly, no ripping involved.

It does also allow you to rip them, but it is also usefull for straight playback.

I myself have been very tempted to pick up one of those Xbox360 HD-DVD drives :) 

It is my opinion that the existence of AnyDVD HD, the fact that it is already possible to backup Xbox360 games and HD-DVDs, and the pricepoint of the Xbox360 HD-DVD drive, will eventually lead to HD-DVD winning over Blu-Ray ;) 

Its ironic that my local computer store had noticed a massive increase in demand for the previously pointless and overpriced DVD±R DL disks recently. He laughed when I pointed out this was more than likely due to the fact that they were needed for Xbox360 backups....

Piracy is often the catalyst for tecnological adoption in the marketplace imho.

I really dont think HDCP will matter in the long term, by the time the movie studios force us to use HDCP outputs (didnt they say 2010?) it will be so totally cracked as to be irrelevent, just as CSS was.
a b U Graphics card
March 13, 2007 4:39:54 AM

Quote:

AnyDVD HD allows the playback of protected HD-DVDs on non-HDCP compliant hardware directly, no ripping involved.


Ah OK, that's a good feature I hadn't seen in the description, real-time DRM suppression. The only thing that concerns me long term is the ability to change the encryption, so I'd still prefer the safety of HDCP enabled chip anyways. (Also the HDMI out is nice on the HPs). But it's good to know that it's no longer just stripping the AACS protection. I might buy the XboxDVD for this laptop then.

Quote:
It is my opinion that the existence of AnyDVD HD, the fact that it is already possible to backup Xbox360 games and HD-DVDs, and the pricepoint of the Xbox360 HD-DVD drive, will eventually lead to HD-DVD winning over Blu-Ray ;) 


Well you can also back up BluRay, but I agree HD-DVD is doing well. The thing is Sony is low balling BR pricing and dumping availability, which is helping them somewhat. I keep an eye on this site every one in a while to get a feel for it all;

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

Quote:
Piracy is often the catalyst for tecnological adoption in the marketplace imho.


Sometimes, but it can also work against it depending on the model used, and what we're talking about. Sometimes good technology gets held back because of the fear of un checked piracy. The adoption of DVD burners increases, but it's not really a technology that was in need of a champion IMO.

I'm for freeing up the right of the people but I'm not a champion for pirates who've never bought a DVD in their life, nor would they even if they were 99 cents. Too many of those leeches in the pool ruins the system for everyone. I like to think of the casual and selective pirate as those who tend to keep prices low, those that just steal have no impact on prices, because half the price wouldn't tempt them to buy so why bother.

Quote:
I really dont think HDCP will matter in the long term, by the time the movie studios force us to use HDCP outputs (didnt they say 2010?) it will be so totally cracked as to be irrelevent, just as CSS was.


Hopefully, but seeing as this new laptop I buy, like all those before it (save those pre-386) have been, will be sold or given to firends/family, I would like it to be ready for that eventuality to if it's not at too great a cost. I'd pay $25 more for HDCP ready/capable as a precaution, and +$50 for HDMI 1.2+ support (or +$100 if they could do HDMI 1.3 with integrated audio out [ala R600 rumours]) just for the convenience. Heck I'd pay a hefty premium for DisplyPort support already. The problem is these features usually come with a ton of crap I don't want, nor have any interest in paying for, especially the crap memory and mediocre HDD options they come with. At least the AnyDVD option let's me focus more on the things I need for editing and gaming.
March 13, 2007 4:20:32 PM

Quote:
G84 supports 3840x2400 resolution

Geforce 8600 GTS / GT have the power


You obviously don't know what I'm talking about when I say "DualLink HDCP" support, by reposting Fuad's comments. He's talking about the limits of Dual-Link, which technically has always been available if the VPU makers wanted to support such a resolution. I'm talking about the HDCP on the dual-link signal which is the subject here.

And no the GF8600 doesn't have the power to do anything more than 2D and rudementary workstation 3D at that resolution especially with 128bit memory, no gaming at that resolution, other than minesweeper and chess.
thx but 8)
i don't say that $hit this site is say it
http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&ta...
a b U Graphics card
March 13, 2007 5:26:54 PM

Quote:
thx but 8)
i don't say that $hit this site is say it
http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&ta...


I know; you seem to have this recent fascination with Fuad's site and simply cut and past his words in, sofar the above id your only original contribution I've seen.

Anywoo like I said, Fuad's blurb doesn't speak to Dual-Link HDCP support, only mentions the resolutions they support under dual-link.

The G80 supports Dual-link, and supports HDCP, but does not support Dual-Link HDCP. So no HDCP with the Dual-Link useage, which was the point of my post to HY27. why you replied to me with Faud's post (which is unrelated) I don't understand. Explain if you would since you provide nothing with your cut/paste of Fuad's writing.

And the rest I wrote was in reply to the content of Fuad's post, regardless of whether you wrote it or not, in this thread, you're the one re-posting it.
March 13, 2007 6:52:38 PM

Quote:
I know; you seem to have this recent fascination with Fuad's site and simply cut and past his words in, sofar the above id your only original contribution I've seen.
Anywoo like I said, Fuad's blurb doesn't speak to Dual-Link HDCP support, only mentions the resolutions they support under dual-link.
The G80 supports Dual-link, and supports HDCP, but does not support Dual-Link HDCP. So no HDCP with the Dual-Link useage, which was the point of my post to HY27. why you replied to me with Faud's post (which is unrelated) I don't understand. Explain if you would since you provide nothing with your cut/paste of Fuad's writing.
And the rest I wrote was in reply to the content of Fuad's post, regardless of whether you wrote it or not, in this thread, you're the one re-posting it.


thx for hellp & i edit my posts.(i use with quotes) :) 
March 13, 2007 7:29:53 PM

Quote:
I'm just glad my card supports HDCP.


Just not with Dual-Link!
HAha it sucks!

JK :twisted:You always have to rain on my parade. :( 
March 14, 2007 8:29:18 AM

Quote:
NVIDIA GeForce 8600-Series Details Unveiled

NVIDIA touts three dedicated video engines on the G84 and G86-based graphics cards for PureVideo processing. The video engines provide MPEG-2 high-definition and WMV HD video playback up to resolutions of 1080p. G84 and G86 support hardware accelerated decoding of H.264 video as well; however, NVIDIA makes no mention of VC-1 decoding. G84 and G86 also feature advanced post-processing video algorithms. Supported algorithms include spatial-temporal de-interlacing, inverse 2:2, 3:2 pull-down and 4-tap horizontal, and 5-tap vertical video scaling.

At the top of the mid-range lineup is the GeForce 8600GTS. The G84-based graphics core clocks in at 675 MHz. NVIDIA pairs the GeForce 8600GTS with 256MB of GDDR3 memory clocked at 1000 MHz. The memory interfaces with the GPU via a 128-bit bus. The GeForce 8600GTS does not integrate HDCP keys on the GPU. Add-in board partners will have to purchase separate EEPROMs with HDCP keys; however, all GeForce 8600GTS-based graphics cards feature support for HDCP.

GeForce 8600GTS-based graphics cards require an eight-layer PCB. Physically, the cards measure in at 7.2 x 4.376 inches and available in full-height only. NVIDIA GeForce 8600GTS graphics cards feature a PCIe x16 interface, unlike ATI’s upcoming RV630. GeForce 8600GTS-based cards still require external PCIe power. NVIDIA estimates total board power consumption at around 71-watts.

Supported video output connectors include dual dual-link DVI, VGA, SDTV and HDTV outputs, and analog video inputs. G84-based GPUs do not support a native HDMI output. Manufacturers can adapt one of the DVI-outputs for HDMI.

NVIDIA’s GeForce 8600GT is not as performance oriented as the 8600GTS. The GeForce 8600GT GPU clocks in at a more conservative 540 MHz. The memory configuration has more flexibility, letting manufacturers decide between 256MB or 128MB of GDDR3 memory. NVIDIA specifies the memory clock at 700 MHz. The GeForce 8600GT shares the same 128-bit memory interface as the 8600GTS. HDCP support on GeForce 8600GT is optional. The GPU and reference board design support the required HDCP keys EEPROM, however, the implementation is up to NVIDIA’s add-in board partners.

GeForce 8600GT-based graphics cards only require a six-layer PCB instead of the eight-layer PCB of the 8600GTS. The physical board size is also smaller too – measuring in at 6.9 x 4.376 inches. GeForce 8600GT-based cards do not require external PCIe power. NVIDIA rates the maximum board power consumption at 43-watts – 28-watts less than the 8600GTS.

The GeForce 8600GT supports similar video outputs as the 8600GTS, however, the 8600GT does not support video input features.

http://www.dailytech.com/NVIDIA+GeForce+8600Series+Deta...
a b U Graphics card
March 14, 2007 3:06:22 PM

Ok, I assume the area you highlighted is for HeyYou27 and my benefit, but what you are missing is that the HDCP support only extends to the single link portion, regardless of whether or not they have 2 tMDS to make dual link, the HDCP is only has single link support. The chips support dual link (built into the GPU), but the HDCP is an external component in the I/O bundle or a separate crypto chip like the pics I posted.

It's like Coke, DietCoke and Coke Zero.

Coke is Dual-Link DVI, Diet Coke is HDCP, and Coke Zero is like DLDVI+HDCP.

The GF8 series has Coke & Diet Coke.
The some future products will have Coke, DietCoke and Coke Zero.

The R600 is rumoured to also carry Audio on HDMI for some models, which would be like adding Cherry Coke Zero to all that. 8)

I just hope they do that for their laptops, because that would be perfect for me.
!