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AMD's Debt Ratings Fall -

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March 13, 2007 1:07:34 PM

Quote:

Moody's downgrades AMD corporate family rating to 'B1'

Gabriel Madway
Last Update: 12:35 PM ET Mar 12, 2007


SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Moody's Investors Service on Monday lowered Advanced Micro Devices Inc.'s corporate family rating to B1 from Ba3. The outlook is stable. The agency said the downgrade reflects AMD's weaker-than-expected operating performance in the last two quarters and Moody's expectation that "the next couple of quarters will remain very challenging as a result of Intel's strong competitive pressure, as well as some level of excess inventory at both AMD and Intel." The agency added that it expects a continued "aggressive pricing environment over the near term, especially in the server market."


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More about : amd debt ratings fall

March 13, 2007 1:18:50 PM

Can we get a link please?
March 13, 2007 1:32:48 PM

Quote:

Moody's downgrades AMD corporate family rating to 'B1'

Gabriel Madway
Last Update: 12:35 PM ET Mar 12, 2007


SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Moody's Investors Service on Monday lowered Advanced Micro Devices Inc.'s corporate family rating to B1 from Ba3. The outlook is stable. The agency said the downgrade reflects AMD's weaker-than-expected operating performance in the last two quarters and Moody's expectation that "the next couple of quarters will remain very challenging as a result of Intel's strong competitive pressure, as well as some level of excess inventory at both AMD and Intel." The agency added that it expects a continued "aggressive pricing environment over the near term, especially in the server market."


link


They actually mean predatory pricing. They just have no spine.
Related resources
March 13, 2007 1:45:13 PM

Basically, it will be extremely difficult for AMD to raise any more debt... stock dilution is almost assured.

Always follow the debt ratings... as they have extensive knowledge of the business. It takes a lot to move the debt rating - unlike stock analyst opinions/outlooks.


Death spiral?
March 13, 2007 2:11:19 PM

Quote:
They actually mean predatory pricing. They just have no spine.


While I can't really comment on the strength of their spines, isn't it just possible they didn't say "predatory pricing" because, in fact, it's not going on - by definition of the phrase?
a c 478 à CPUs
a c 120 À AMD
a c 117 å Intel
March 13, 2007 2:14:30 PM

Yeah, AMD will have to show significant improvements for Moodys to raise their bond ratings. Not a very easy feat.
March 13, 2007 2:20:28 PM

Quote:



They actually mean predatory pricing. They just have no spine.


Did someone forget to take their pill this morning? :D 
March 13, 2007 2:53:03 PM

Quote:



Death spiral?


pretty much
March 13, 2007 2:53:41 PM

Quote:

Moody's downgrades AMD corporate family rating to 'B1'

Gabriel Madway
Last Update: 12:35 PM ET Mar 12, 2007


SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Moody's Investors Service on Monday lowered Advanced Micro Devices Inc.'s corporate family rating to B1 from Ba3. The outlook is stable. The agency said the downgrade reflects AMD's weaker-than-expected operating performance in the last two quarters and Moody's expectation that "the next couple of quarters will remain very challenging as a result of Intel's strong competitive pressure, as well as some level of excess inventory at both AMD and Intel." The agency added that it expects a continued "aggressive pricing environment over the near term, especially in the server market."


link


They actually mean predatory pricing. They just have no spine.

Can someone buff the scrathes off this record? It keeps skipping...
March 13, 2007 3:08:40 PM

From Wikipedia:

In the United States predatory pricing practices may result in antitrust claims of monopolization or attempts to monopolize. Businesses with dominant or substantial market shares are more vulnerable to antitrust claims. However, because the antitrust laws are ultimately intended to benefit consumers, and discounting results in at least short-term net benefit to consumers, the U.S. Supreme Court has set high hurdles to antitrust claims based on a predatory pricing theory. The Court requires plaintiffs to show a likelihood that the pricing practices will not only affect rivals but also competition in the market as a whole, in order to establish that there is a substantial probability of success of the attempt to monopolize.[1] If there is a likelihood that market entrants will prevent the predator from recouping its investment through supra competitive pricing, then there is no probability of success and the antitrust claim would fail. In addition, the Court established that for prices to be predatory, they must be below the seller's cost.

Can we end the talk of predatory pricing now?
March 13, 2007 3:11:22 PM

Technically speaking, it's only 'predatory pricing' when the intention is to drive one's competitors out of business. I very much doubt that this what Intel is up to.

There is a case for running at a loss for a short term in order to regain market share. Then, once big contracts start falling in your lap again, you can put prices back up. This trades on situations where there is a relative high 'switching' cost.

This might be what Intel is up to... Thoughts?
March 13, 2007 3:13:34 PM

AMD is hardly in a death spiral.
I once worked for a company that was. Our 401k company match was in company stock, which we could not sell. I watched our stock price go from $54 down to $1.25, (in one year) with a 5 for 1 reverse split thrown in to keep the company from being de-listed (so my real share price was $0.25).
Bad times all around.
AMD is nowhere near that bad off. When you see the stock price in the sub-$5 range, though, it's time to circle the wagons.
March 13, 2007 3:26:54 PM

Quote:
AMD is hardly in a death spiral.
I once worked for a company that was. Our 401k company match was in company stock, which we could not sell. I watched our stock price go from $54 down to $1.25, (in one year) with a 5 for 1 reverse split thrown in to keep the company from being de-listed (so my real share price was $0.25).
Bad times all around.
AMD is nowhere near that bad off. When you see the stock price in the sub-$5 range, though, it's time to circle the wagons.


You didn't work for Exodus did you? :lol: 
March 13, 2007 3:32:50 PM

I dont think Intel is losing any money on any of its CPU's (although the magins may be pretty thin at the low end ?) AMD probably doesnt lose any money either in a shear cost perspective (They have alot of debt racked up so they need a higher margin) Hmmmm Intel seems to taking advantage of the market situation, brutal... Ahh well such is capitalism, like any tool it can be used for good and evil ! lol
March 13, 2007 3:48:39 PM

Quote:
Quote:

Moody's downgrades AMD corporate family rating to 'B1'

Gabriel Madway
Last Update: 12:35 PM ET Mar 12, 2007


This is hardly surprising considering the past several months, with both the low cashflow and the high debt ratio that AMD has. Until and unless they start releasing new products to sell, they aren't going to be getting any better.

As to the death spiral comment, even airplanes that go into a spin can be pulled out, as long as the pilot does something and he does it before its too late. AMD needs to do something, other than give meaningless pep talks about how good its new cpu will be.
March 13, 2007 3:59:22 PM

Quote:
AMD is hardly in a death spiral.
I once worked for a company that was. Our 401k company match was in company stock, which we could not sell. I watched our stock price go from $54 down to $1.25, (in one year) with a 5 for 1 reverse split thrown in to keep the company from being de-listed (so my real share price was $0.25).
Bad times all around.
AMD is nowhere near that bad off. When you see the stock price in the sub-$5 range, though, it's time to circle the wagons.


You didn't work for Exodus did you? :lol: 

lol - exactly what I thought when reading that post...

they were still building new centers till the bitter end :x
March 13, 2007 4:33:19 PM

Quote:
They actually mean predatory pricing. They just have no spine.


While I can't really comment on the strength of their spines, isn't it just possible they didn't say "predatory pricing" because, in fact, it's not going on - by definition of the phrase?

Are you kidding? The E4300 is nearly faster than 965EE. If it's intro'd at less than $200 that is a barrier to AMD or anyone else who would want to sell X86 processors.

That is the definition of predatory pricing. The Inq seems to think they are getting away with it becaue of the money IT puts into the economy. I guess they don't see how much less there will be now with this PSYCHOTIC, bordering on illegal "price war."
March 13, 2007 4:35:34 PM

Quote:
Quote:

Moody's downgrades AMD corporate family rating to 'B1'

Gabriel Madway
Last Update: 12:35 PM ET Mar 12, 2007


This is hardly surprising considering the past several months, with both the low cashflow and the high debt ratio that AMD has. Until and unless they start releasing new products to sell, they aren't going to be getting any better.

As to the death spiral comment, even airplanes that go into a spin can be pulled out, as long as the pilot does something and he does it before its too late. AMD needs to do something, other than give meaningless pep talks about how good its new cpu will be.Nice point... what AMD ought to do is release Barcy right now; whatever they got needs to be put in full production ASAP. Getting a competitive product out there is MUCH more important than R&D and delayed releases. If their silicon is still too buggy to be fab-ed, they ought to start burying their own graves; save Intel the trouble. At least they have SOMETHING with the 6000+... it preforms about the same as an E6600 for 50% more, though doesn't overclock perfectly (200mhz vs 1+ ghz?).

I really want AMD to pull out; I'm pretty close to where the possible NY fab will be; I would like to go there; perhaps pull a "im so poor -- i have to use intel cpus" and get somethin free ;)  ... but really AMD needs to do something now; releasing silicon now can only help.

Also, ATI portion needs R600 out; forget about competing with the 8900GTX; it aient even out yet! Just build something (x2900) to match or better the 8800GTX and they'll have a good start. There's always the x2950 to beat a 8900GTX... what i fear is nVidia saturates the enthusiast market with 8800GTS/GTX, and then saturates the mainstream dedicated market with 8300/8600's. Intel will keep majority of low-end/mainstream discrete market; they can't be beaten that easily.

Well; good luck AMD/ATI; I don't particularly care for your product though your development only helps me.
March 13, 2007 4:37:30 PM

Quote:
From Wikipedia:
In addition, the Court established that for prices to be predatory, they must be below the seller's cost.

Can we end the talk of predatory pricing now?


Exactly. Intel's making a profit. Hence, by definition, it is not engaged in predatory pricing.

Further, Intels offerings are much more expensive than AMDs.

The problem isn't predatory pricing, the problem is AMD is STILL pimping a has-been outdated product.
March 13, 2007 5:19:42 PM

Quote:
Technically speaking, it's only 'predatory pricing' when the intention is to drive one's competitors out of business. I very much doubt that this what Intel is up to.

There is a case for running at a loss for a short term in order to regain market share. Then, once big contracts start falling in your lap again, you can put prices back up. This trades on situations where there is a relative high 'switching' cost.

This might be what Intel is up to... Thoughts?


That's not exactly what it means. If you lower prices so much as to hinder anyone else that is predatory.

They have 75% of a $200B industry. How much more do you need. If they wanted AMD to stay down they wouldn't have signed the second source agreement those decades ago.

I hope AMD gets another couple of billion out of em.

Besides, what reason could they give to justify the Core 2 family going UP in price? Even the 1666MHz bus chips are only a few % faster.

Now AMD can release Barcelna at MUCH higher prices than K8 because it is SUPPOSEDLY 40% faster per core.

That's AMDs plan. To force Intel's prices down and then use the new architecture to keep Intel as the "budget-basement" CPU maker.

That would be so funny. Especialy since I would pay what I paid for a 4400+ for a new Kuma at 2.2GHz.

As far as the person who said AMD needs to not have press conferences, maybe you shoul dlendyour incredible skills in CPu process management and get them out sooner.
March 13, 2007 5:26:21 PM

Quote:
From Wikipedia:
In addition, the Court established that for prices to be predatory, they must be below the seller's cost.

Can we end the talk of predatory pricing now?


Exactly. Intel's making a profit. Hence, by definition, it is not engaged in predatory pricing.

Further, Intels offerings are much more expensive than AMDs.

The problem isn't predatory pricing, the problem is AMD is STILL pimping a has-been outdated product.


That's that Brood SELECTIVE reading.

FROM SAID LINK:

Quote:
If the other firms cannot sustain equal or lower prices without losing money, they go out of business. The predatory pricer then has fewer competitors or even a monopoly, allowing it to raise prices above what the market would otherwise bear.
March 13, 2007 5:28:33 PM

Quote:



They actually mean predatory pricing. They just have no spine.


Did someone forget to take their pill this morning? :D 


My last post in this thread.


ALL HAIL THE BOTTOM FALLING OUT!!!
March 13, 2007 5:33:15 PM

Quote:



They actually mean predatory pricing. They just have no spine.


Did someone forget to take their pill this morning? :D 


My last post in this thread.


ALL HAIL THE BOTTOM FALLING OUT!!!

Not if you've got lots of stocks, and I don't mean in AMD, which I don't own anymore. The whole market is on a dive again this morning. This is not good for anybody.
March 13, 2007 5:57:23 PM

Quote:



They actually mean predatory pricing. They just have no spine.


Did someone forget to take their pill this morning? :D 

considering intel is planning a 3 GHz core for only 260 ( extreme edition speeds )
and a quadcore for less than 300
id say thats predatory .
March 13, 2007 6:02:40 PM

Quote:
From Wikipedia:
In addition, the Court established that for prices to be predatory, they must be below the seller's cost.

Can we end the talk of predatory pricing now?


Exactly. Intel's making a profit. Hence, by definition, it is not engaged in predatory pricing.

Further, Intels offerings are much more expensive than AMDs.

The problem isn't predatory pricing, the problem is AMD is STILL pimping a has-been outdated product.


That's that Brood SELECTIVE reading.

FROM SAID LINK:

Quote:
If the other firms cannot sustain equal or lower prices without losing money, they go out of business. The predatory pricer then has fewer competitors or even a monopoly, allowing it to raise prices above what the market would otherwise bear.


Good god you are so f*****g stupid. That's a description of the EFFECTS of predatory pricing once it has happened.

As has been clearly shown: Intel's current pricing BY LAW is NOT predatory.

You must be a mouth breather.
March 13, 2007 6:05:42 PM

Quote:


My last post in this thread.
\



Fixed.
March 13, 2007 6:06:45 PM

What? Mouth breather?
March 13, 2007 6:39:01 PM

Quote:
They actually mean predatory pricing. They just have no spine.


While I can't really comment on the strength of their spines, isn't it just possible they didn't say "predatory pricing" because, in fact, it's not going on - by definition of the phrase?

Are you kidding? The E4300 is nearly faster than 965EE. If it's intro'd at less than $200 that is a barrier to AMD or anyone else who would want to sell X86 processors.

That is the definition of predatory pricing. The Inq seems to think they are getting away with it becaue of the money IT puts into the economy. I guess they don't see how much less there will be now with this PSYCHOTIC, bordering on illegal "price war."

Not to get political, but that reminds me of the people who started calling the Iraq war illegal. LOL. If you make up your own laws and claim actions are violating them, I guess then you can say they are illegal.

Sorry Baron, but the actions of Intel in regards to pricing are clearly not illegal under US or International Law. They may be illegal in Baron land, but then again, so is releasing a faster Intel processor in general. Anything that makes AMD anything less than perfect must be illegal. :roll:

This news is bad for AMD, but it's to be expected and is just more of the same. Intel's kicking butt, AMD is still sucking, and we're still waiting for their next big product. Until one of those things changes, AMD will slide. In an interesting turn of events, I notice more Celeron based computers at Dell, where the low end was recently exclusively AMD. Maybe AMD can now supply the channel that they've been neglecting :D 
March 13, 2007 6:59:20 PM

Quote:
Can we end the talk of predatory pricing now?

Apparently not. Baron has his own definition of the term "predatory pricing", and no silly little Supreme Court decision is going to sway his opinion - after all, what do Supreme Court justices know about the law? :roll:
March 13, 2007 8:34:35 PM

Quote:


My last post in this thread.
\



Fixed.

How did you get baron to pose for the picture though??? :lol:  :lol:  :lol: 
March 13, 2007 10:34:28 PM

Quote:


My last post in this thread.
\



Fixed.

How did you get baron to pose for the picture though??? :lol:  :lol:  :lol: They took around his suckie...
March 14, 2007 12:10:07 AM

Actually the Iraq war by international law is very likely to be illegal. It just not very likely to be tried in international court. On the other hand wars are about winning at any cost, not right and wrong. Wars with conditions almost always result in failure and Iraq will be no different. Also before you label me liberal you should keep in mind that I would advocate carpet bombing the whole country as not one America life was worth wasting on the whole matter.

To everyone out there on topic predatory pricing has never been proven in a court law not even once. Its more of concept, baron...
March 14, 2007 12:30:38 AM

Quote:
Not to get political, but that reminds me of the people who started calling the Iraq war illegal. LOL


Whoa, nelly. I hate to comment on politics in a cpu thread (well I don't really, but anyway) - but this idiocy needs to stop being perpetuated immediately.

The Iraq war was and is illegal, and if you still, after all the evidence to the contrary, believe the bullsh*t being fed you by the white house, I'm sorry, but you are too stupid for this forum.

As far as the pricing goes, I don't know, I think Baron might have a point, though in this case I can't comment on the legal technicalities beyond the links that have been provided. I don't know what Intel's cost is, but just because they are turning a profit overall doesn't mean they weren't losing money on their CPUs initially.

It also seems hard to believe that the pricing scheme wasn't designed mostly to put pressure on AMD, as Intel would have gained market share even with an entry price 1.5x what it was, simply due to the benchmark-proven dominance of the Core architecture.
March 14, 2007 12:54:05 AM

Its not that intel isn't charging enough for their product right now. Its just that they have just overcharged for so many years that some people cant seem to grasp a fair price when they see it.
March 14, 2007 2:04:01 AM

Totaly agree with that. I guess you get used to being ripped off after a while lol
March 14, 2007 2:40:20 AM

Quote:
Quote:

Moody's downgrades AMD corporate family rating to 'B1'

Gabriel Madway
Last Update: 12:35 PM ET Mar 12, 2007


This is hardly surprising considering the past several months, with both the low cashflow and the high debt ratio that AMD has. Until and unless they start releasing new products to sell, they aren't going to be getting any better.

As to the death spiral comment, even airplanes that go into a spin can be pulled out, as long as the pilot does something and he does it before its too late. AMD needs to do something, other than give meaningless pep talks about how good its new cpu will be.That isn't true. There are some airplanes that will not recover from spins (multi engine aircraft) and there are certain types of spins that can't be recovered from (flat inverted spins). Also if the pilot makes the wrong moves he can end up ripping the wings off in the pull out by pulling to many g's or cause the spin to become "tight" and then it's just a rolling nose dive. Spins are quite dangerous, I had to do a few and they are quite disorienting. I'm sure a company spiraling out of control (not saying that AMD is) would disorient the board and ceo.
March 14, 2007 3:24:41 AM

Quote:


That isn't true. There are some airplanes that will not recover from spins (multi engine aircraft) and there are certain types of spins that can't be recovered from (flat inverted spins). Also if the pilot makes the wrong moves he can end up ripping the wings off in the pull out by pulling to many g's or cause the spin to become "tight" and then it's just a rolling nose dive. Spins are quite dangerous, I had to do a few and they are quite disorienting. I'm sure a company spiraling out of control (not saying that AMD is) would disorient the board and ceo.


Since you felt like correcting someone, I felt like joining the FORUMZ and creating an account just to correct you.

You are right that there are some airplanes that will not recover from spins, but thats all you got right. You are quite mistaken that multiengine aircaft cannot recover from spins. If you meant to say a multiengine aircraft with a FAILED engine, you would at least be closer to getting it right. You are also totally wrong about the inverted flat spin. As a Naval Aviator with 3000 hours of instructional time over 1600+ instructional sorties, with all basic and advanced instructional qualifications, including a Standardization Instructor Qualification in Out of Control Flight, I can assure you Inverted Flat Spins can be recovered. Having myself executed thousands of spins, spirals and controled flight departures, including the inverted flat spin, I speak from experiance when I say you are wrong. I dont know who taught you these things, it was probably some moron from AOPA, some ex Air Force T38 weenie or some idiot FAA examiner, but if you paid for that kind of instruction and I were you, Id go get my money back.

As proof that a multiengine aircraft can be recovered from a spin, I refer you to the Naval Aviation Approach publication article documenting a C130 spin and recovery from less than ideal conditions:

http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/approach/issues/...
March 14, 2007 4:12:08 AM

Quote:
Quote:

Moody's downgrades AMD corporate family rating to 'B1'

Gabriel Madway
Last Update: 12:35 PM ET Mar 12, 2007


This is hardly surprising considering the past several months, with both the low cashflow and the high debt ratio that AMD has. Until and unless they start releasing new products to sell, they aren't going to be getting any better.

As to the death spiral comment, even airplanes that go into a spin can be pulled out, as long as the pilot does something and he does it before its too late. AMD needs to do something, other than give meaningless pep talks about how good its new cpu will be.That isn't true. There are some airplanes that will not recover from spins (multi engine aircraft) and there are certain types of spins that can't be recovered from (flat inverted spins). Also if the pilot makes the wrong moves he can end up ripping the wings off in the pull out by pulling to many g's or cause the spin to become "tight" and then it's just a rolling nose dive. Spins are quite dangerous, I had to do a few and they are quite disorienting. I'm sure a company spiraling out of control (not saying that AMD is) would disorient the board and ceo.

Don't know where you get your information about flying, but I started in the early 1960's. Every single person in my family was a pilot. Both my oldest brother and I served in the Air Force and we got taught how to pull out of spins in multiple types of aircraft, single engine and multi-engine. It was said that the only spin you couldn't get out of was the one so close to the ground that before you could air speed back, you went splat.

Sure, if you do something wrong, you can rip the wings off or have other things happen. That's why we taught how to do things right. Oh yeah, a flat inverted spin may seem scary, but as long as the engine stays running and you have enough altitude, you can recover from it.
March 14, 2007 5:14:44 AM

Quote:
Not to get political, but that reminds me of the people who started calling the Iraq war illegal. LOL


Whoa, nelly. I hate to comment on politics in a cpu thread (well I don't really, but anyway) - but this idiocy needs to stop being perpetuated immediately.

The Iraq war was and is illegal, and if you still, after all the evidence to the contrary, believe the bullsh*t being fed you by the white house, I'm sorry, but you are too stupid for this forum.


UGGGHHH!!! It's killing me not to respond to this. All I'll say is please stop posting this political stuff.
March 14, 2007 6:54:54 AM

i like pie 8O



would it be a good idea for amd to cut prices to a ~25% margin from their cost price and sell it at that price? it would ( should ) clear their unwanted inventory pretty quick, and they may be able to score some good contracts with pc companies ? untill barc + r600 hits of course.
March 14, 2007 8:01:26 AM

Quote:
UGGGHHH!!! It's killing me not to respond to this. All I'll say is please stop posting this political stuff.


Feel free to do so in private, so as not to derail thread - always happy to educate the unwashed :D 

Seems like Intel still makes a profit, which rules out predatory pricing, and according to the wiki,

Quote:
. . .This stance was taken by the US Supreme Court in the 1993 case Brooke Group v. Brown & Williamson Tobacco, and the Federal Trade Commission has not successfully prosecuted any company for predatory pricing since


But what of monopolistic practices in general? Capitalism is great, but what do you do about industries where the barrier to entry is so high that free market in effect encourages monopolies instead of preventing them?

Quote:
would it be a good idea for amd to cut prices to a ~25% margin from their cost price and sell it at that price? it would ( should ) clear their unwanted inventory pretty quick, and they may be able to score some good contracts with pc companies ? untill barc + r600 hits of course.


Doesn't seem likely that short term price cuts on old inventory will score any long-term valuable contracts, and prices are already in the basement. Could be wrong though :?
March 14, 2007 9:11:16 AM

Well, I'm restraining myself too...

As a general issue, one should be careful to separate out the legal and the moral issues. Legally, I very much doubt Intel would lose under the anti-trust laws in the US. (and for the record, the iraq war being illegal is the biggest moot point I have ever heard. What is the point discussing a 'legality' that is completely non-binding? To some extent, it's not even 'law' unless it's binding.) BM's little outburst was one of _moral_ indignation, and should be assessed as such.

Personally, I can't see anything wrong with a company doing whatever they think is best for the long-run bottom-line within the framework of the law. The moral case is for governments to design the instiutional frameworks so that they don't get raped by muscular corporations (as a result of market failure). Anti-trust laws are a case in point, and have a history as long as corporate status (although it's time to review that, I would say). So BM's point really should be about US government institutions...

If he wanted to be consistent, that is. :lol: 
March 14, 2007 12:35:29 PM

Quote:
Quote:

Moody's downgrades AMD corporate family rating to 'B1'

Gabriel Madway
Last Update: 12:35 PM ET Mar 12, 2007


This is hardly surprising considering the past several months, with both the low cashflow and the high debt ratio that AMD has. Until and unless they start releasing new products to sell, they aren't going to be getting any better.

As to the death spiral comment, even airplanes that go into a spin can be pulled out, as long as the pilot does something and he does it before its too late. AMD needs to do something, other than give meaningless pep talks about how good its new cpu will be.That isn't true. There are some airplanes that will not recover from spins (multi engine aircraft) and there are certain types of spins that can't be recovered from (flat inverted spins). Also if the pilot makes the wrong moves he can end up ripping the wings off in the pull out by pulling to many g's or cause the spin to become "tight" and then it's just a rolling nose dive. Spins are quite dangerous, I had to do a few and they are quite disorienting. I'm sure a company spiraling out of control (not saying that AMD is) would disorient the board and ceo.

I have to disagree with you re: not being able to recover airplanes from a spin... Which is totally false! How do I know this? I too am an expert pilot, MS Sim Lic #2758 ;) 
March 14, 2007 12:59:55 PM

Ack, I apologize. No more...I promise I'll try to refrain...Or at least put it in a different forum. The parallel was just too perfect. :D 
March 14, 2007 1:11:39 PM

Wow, I just posted about AMD debt rating and we start debating about:

- predatory pricing and precedent in US law
- the morality & legality of the Iraq war
- the ability of pilots to recover from tailspins

8O

This is exactly why a computer can never be smarter than a human brain... it doesn't get go off on random tangents - which may or may not yield new insights. :wink:
March 14, 2007 1:34:05 PM

Quote:
Wow, I just posted about AMD debt rating and we start debating about:

- predatory pricing and precedent in US law
- the morality & legality of the Iraq war
- the ability of pilots to recover from tailspins

8O

This is exactly why a computer can never be smarter than a human brain... it doesn't get go off on random tangents - which may or may not yield new insights. :wink:


Equally, you could have said that it is exactly why a computer is smarter! (But that would be another tangent!!!)
March 14, 2007 2:17:33 PM

Quote:


That isn't true. There are some airplanes that will not recover from spins (multi engine aircraft) and there are certain types of spins that can't be recovered from (flat inverted spins). Also if the pilot makes the wrong moves he can end up ripping the wings off in the pull out by pulling to many g's or cause the spin to become "tight" and then it's just a rolling nose dive. Spins are quite dangerous, I had to do a few and they are quite disorienting. I'm sure a company spiraling out of control (not saying that AMD is) would disorient the board and ceo.


Since you felt like correcting someone, I felt like joining the FORUMZ and creating an account just to correct you.

You are right that there are some airplanes that will not recover from spins, but thats all you got right. You are quite mistaken that multiengine aircaft cannot recover from spins. If you meant to say a multiengine aircraft with a FAILED engine, you would at least be closer to getting it right. You are also totally wrong about the inverted flat spin. As a Naval Aviator with 3000 hours of instructional time over 1600+ instructional sorties, with all basic and advanced instructional qualifications, including a Standardization Instructor Qualification in Out of Control Flight, I can assure you Inverted Flat Spins can be recovered. Having myself executed thousands of spins, spirals and controled flight departures, including the inverted flat spin, I speak from experiance when I say you are wrong. I dont know who taught you these things, it was probably some moron from AOPA, some ex Air Force T38 weenie or some idiot FAA examiner, but if you paid for that kind of instruction and I were you, Id go get my money back.

As proof that a multiengine aircraft can be recovered from a spin, I refer you to the Naval Aviation Approach publication article documenting a C130 spin and recovery from less than ideal conditions:

http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/approach/issues/... for the correction, I was taught from several instructors that spins in ME aircraft are "near" unrecoverable, near meaning a chance of less then 1%. I cannot remember if there was a caviat of one dead engine. But now that you mention it I'm sure there was. Of course this does does mean a lack of altitude and pilot experience (only CFI applicants are now required to spin an aircraft) As for the inverted flat spin, I'm sure you can agree that is the most dangerous spin. I've never flown an aircraft that was meant to fly in high stress situations but if c-172 was to enter an inverted flat spin, even at it's max service ceiling (a mear 14000 ft :lol:  ) The liklyhood of it recovering is nill. The aircraft cannot take that type of stress. So from my viewpoint of what I fly then my statements are correct. I cannot go fly a c-172, enter a spin and aggrevate it enough to acelerate it to an inverted spin and recover. But since I said no aircraft could recover from that spin, I stand corrected. Also I've always wondered what it feels like to pull 6-7 g's through a turn, is it an awe inspiring feeling the first time and turn into something that is oridinary. Or does it hurt every time?
March 14, 2007 3:05:18 PM

Quote:

Also I've always wondered what it feels like to pull 6-7 g's through a turn, is it a awe inspiring feeling the first time and turn into something that is oridinary. Or does it hurt every time?


Speaking from my experience only, because I'm sure different people vary on their feelings, its a bit uncomfortable, but tolerable. Without a G-suit, of course it would be impossible, at least in terms of survivability. I'm not sure awe inspiring is the feeling. More like the thought of "Where's the nearest bathroom?".
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