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EDTV's with HD Tuners??? What the...

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September 25, 2004 9:28:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I've seen a few plasma EDTV's that have HD tuners/cablecard built in while
some real HD sets don't even have it, like Samsungs new DLP models. Anyway,
what's the point of having an HD tuner if the set isn't HD anyway? It seems
to defeat the purpose...you have HDTV but it's not HDTV...and some of them
cost as much as an HDTV. Why would anyone want to pay near the price of a
real HD set for EDTV with HD tuners and cablecard? Better yet, why would any
company want to make such a thing? I'm not trying to rant but it's something
I pondered on my drive to work the the other day.

More about : edtv tuners

Anonymous
September 25, 2004 9:28:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

abe wrote:
> I've seen a few plasma EDTV's that have HD tuners/cablecard built in while
> some real HD sets don't even have it, like Samsungs new DLP models. Anyway,
> what's the point of having an HD tuner if the set isn't HD anyway? It seems
> to defeat the purpose...you have HDTV but it's not HDTV...and some of them
> cost as much as an HDTV. Why would anyone want to pay near the price of a
> real HD set for EDTV with HD tuners and cablecard? Better yet, why would any
> company want to make such a thing? I'm not trying to rant but it's something
> I pondered on my drive to work the the other day.

The ATSC tuners are not by definition just HDTV tuners, they are
digital tuners. HDTV is a subset of the set of no less than 18 broadcast
formats - 480i, 480p (ED), 720p, 1080i along with 1080p at 24, 30 fps.
It is up to the station to pick which of the ATSC formats they want to
use. The ATSC tuner in an ED set provides the ability to receive digital
broadcast; the 720p and 1080i HDTV material is scaled to 480p.

The ED plasmas are popular (the 37" and 42" EDs made up half of all
plasma sales in the first 6 months of 2004) because they are less
expensive than the HDs and provide a pretty good picture - especially
for 480i SD channels and DVDs (which are 720x480). The HD plasmas will
provide a better picture for the HD material, but the EDs are not bad at
all. That said, I would rather get the HD model, but with the brand name
ED plamsa MSRP prices down to $3K and less, there is currently a big
step up in price to the brand name 42" HD models.
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 12:18:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"abe" <abes24@doodeedoo.com> wrote in message
news:1m75d.2120$%06.164@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> I've seen a few plasma EDTV's that have HD tuners/cablecard built in while
> some real HD sets don't even have it, like Samsungs new DLP models.
Anyway,
> what's the point of having an HD tuner if the set isn't HD anyway? It
seems
> to defeat the purpose...you have HDTV but it's not HDTV...and some of them
> cost as much as an HDTV. Why would anyone want to pay near the price of a
> real HD set for EDTV with HD tuners and cablecard? Better yet, why would
any
> company want to make such a thing? I'm not trying to rant but it's
something
> I pondered on my drive to work the the other day.

As Allan pointed out, ATSC is not necessarily HD and people might want to
receive the signals even if the display is not the best. There have been
many NTSC sets that were not even up to the job of resolving all of the
detail in those broadcasts. People want cheap sets...

Leonard
Related resources
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 1:16:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

See in-line:

Alan Figgatt <afiggatt@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<I6Wdnc8qkuNPi8jcRVn-jA@comcast.com>...
> abe wrote:
> The ATSC tuners are not by definition just HDTV tuners, they are
> digital tuners. HDTV is a subset of the set of no less than 18 broadcast
> formats - 480i, 480p (ED), 720p, 1080i along with 1080p at 24, 30 fps.
> It is up to the station to pick which of the ATSC formats they want to
> use.

Let's be clear that the 18 ATSC formats you describe define DTV, High
Definition is limited to three formats: 1080p (not supported yet),
720p and the most common 1080i.

While the stations have a choice, most of them have already made that
choice and and that standard of choice has become 1080i and for
sports-centric networks 720p. Most local networks also broadcast
(simulcast) in standard definition 480i in digital. The other 15 DTV
formats are pretty useless to consumers at this point


> The ATSC tuner in an ED set provides the ability to receive digital
> broadcast; the 720p and 1080i HDTV material is scaled to 480p.
>

Downconverted, meaning you'll won't get true HD qualiiy, but it will
look better than then 480i feed. HD will look comparable to DVD
quality on an EDTV set.


> The ED plasmas are popular (the 37" and 42" EDs made up half of all
> plasma sales in the first 6 months of 2004) because they are less
> expensive than the HDs and provide a pretty good picture - especially
> for 480i SD channels and DVDs (which are 720x480). The HD plasmas will
> provide a better picture for the HD material, but the EDs are not bad at
> all. That said, I would rather get the HD model, but with the brand name
> ED plamsa MSRP prices down to $3K and less, there is currently a big
> step up in price to the brand name 42" HD models.
September 25, 2004 8:02:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Alan Figgatt <afiggatt@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<I6Wdnc8qkuNPi8jcRVn-jA@comcast.com>...
> abe wrote:
> > I've seen a few plasma EDTV's that have HD tuners/cablecard built in while
> > some real HD sets don't even have it, like Samsungs new DLP models. Anyway,
> > what's the point of having an HD tuner if the set isn't HD anyway? It seems
> > to defeat the purpose...you have HDTV but it's not HDTV...and some of them
> > cost as much as an HDTV. Why would anyone want to pay near the price of a
> > real HD set for EDTV with HD tuners and cablecard? Better yet, why would any
> > company want to make such a thing? I'm not trying to rant but it's something
> > I pondered on my drive to work the the other day.
>
> The ATSC tuners are not by definition just HDTV tuners, they are
> digital tuners. HDTV is a subset of the set of no less than 18 broadcast
> formats - 480i, 480p (ED), 720p, 1080i along with 1080p at 24, 30 fps.
> It is up to the station to pick which of the ATSC formats they want to
> use. The ATSC tuner in an ED set provides the ability to receive digital
> broadcast; the 720p and 1080i HDTV material is scaled to 480p.
>
> The ED plasmas are popular (the 37" and 42" EDs made up half of all
> plasma sales in the first 6 months of 2004) because they are less
> expensive than the HDs and provide a pretty good picture - especially
> for 480i SD channels and DVDs (which are 720x480). The HD plasmas will
> provide a better picture for the HD material, but the EDs are not bad at
> all. That said, I would rather get the HD model, but with the brand name
> ED plamsa MSRP prices down to $3K and less, there is currently a big
> step up in price to the brand name 42" HD models.

Alan hit it pretty well. I am looking at a 42" ED plasma. At 10 feet
I cannot see much difference between ED and HD while looking at HD
feeds. There is a huge price jump from a 42" ED to a 42" HD. And why
would folks pick an ED plasma over DLP, LCD, ETC? There are pros and
cons to every technology. For my needs and limited space, ED plasma
is my choice. If you like other technologies - more power to you go
and buy those units.

JCPZero


JCPXero
Anonymous
September 26, 2004 3:08:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

JP wrote:
> Alan hit it pretty well. I am looking at a 42" ED plasma. At 10 feet
> I cannot see much difference between ED and HD while looking at HD
> feeds. There is a huge price jump from a 42" ED to a 42" HD. And why
> would folks pick an ED plasma over DLP, LCD, ETC? There are pros and
> cons to every technology. For my needs and limited space, ED plasma
> is my choice. If you like other technologies - more power to you go
> and buy those units.
>
> JCPZero

There are those who claim that at 8 feet they can see no difference
between the 42" ED and HD models. I suspect they reached that conclusion
on comparing the sets in stores using a DVD or upconverted feed source.
I have compared the 42" EDs and HDs (768x1024) a number of times with a
true HD signal such as satellite feed from HDNET. Even at 8 to 10 feet,
the HD set has a more detailed picture with a more of looking through a
window effect. But the difference is not overwhelmingly obvious, but
more subtle if you will. That said, on DVDs and SD sources, the ED
plasma does a fine job. As I think we agree, the better ED Plasma models
are a huge improvement in picture quality (except perhaps for black
levels) over the SD CRTs we have been using for so many years.

Near the end of August, Panasonic for example, cut the prices of the
their consumer PD 37" and 42" ED models by $800 (USD) while only
dropping the price of the 42" HD by $500. The major brand names have
been rather aggressive in cutting the prices of the EDs to under $3K,
while the 42" HDs have stayed up in the mid $5K range list. (All of
these models can be had for lower prices from the on-line dealers of
course). Yesterday I was in Best Buy and the 42PD25 ED Panny was listed
for around $2800 while the 42PX25 HD Panny was at $5500. That is almost
twice the price for the HD model while they otherwise both have all the
same nice features (ATSC, NTSC, Cablecard, HDMI, etc)! I can certainly
understand why people are buying the EDs over the HDs at the moment in
the < 50" range. BTW, the ED price cuts have certainly had the effect of
boosting sales - most CCs and BBs are currently way backordered on the
Panasonic EDs.

Personally I have been in a holding pattern on getting a HD TV for a
while now. I was sorely tempted by the 37" ED Panny during recent sales,
but have decided to wait until we get news on whether the successor
PXS30 Panasonic models will come out this fall or not (and the next
Pioneer models too).

Alan
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 3:20:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"abe" <abes24@doodeedoo.com> wrote in message
news:1m75d.2120$%06.164@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> I've seen a few plasma EDTV's that have HD tuners/cablecard built in while
> some real HD sets don't even have it, like Samsungs new DLP models.
> Anyway,
> what's the point of having an HD tuner if the set isn't HD anyway? It
> seems
> to defeat the purpose...you have HDTV but it's not HDTV...and some of them
> cost as much as an HDTV. Why would anyone want to pay near the price of a
> real HD set for EDTV with HD tuners and cablecard? Better yet, why would
> any
> company want to make such a thing? I'm not trying to rant but it's
> something
> I pondered on my drive to work the the other day.

As others have pointed out, what it really has is a digital tuner. But since
digital includes HD, and most digital content happens to be HD, then there's
really not much point in a digital tuner that couldn't receive HD signals.
Owners would be wondering why it couldn't receive 90% (as a guess) of the
"digital" stations, and wonder why such a worthless tuner would even be
included.

Also, while it won't show full resolution HD content, an ED panel can
display it dramatically better than an analog TV could, let alone compared
to NTSC. That is, the difference between a standard TV showing NTSC and an
HDTV signal shown on an ED display is probably more dramatic than the
difference between HDTV shown on an ED display versus on a true HD display.
It's widescreen, progressive-scan (giving nearly double the effective
vertical resolution), and has dramatically improved color quality and
resolution. And since even an HD signal has color encoded at 1/2 the
resolution in each direction as the greyscale resolution, an ED set can
display the chroma of an HD signal at or near its full resolution. (Only the
luminance is at roughtly 1/2 the resolution of the native signal.)
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 3:20:40 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"JDeats" <jeremy@pdq.net> wrote in message
news:b0738dc6.0409250816.6619a603@posting.google.com...
>
> Downconverted, meaning you'll won't get true HD qualiiy, but it will
> look better than then 480i feed. HD will look comparable to DVD
> quality on an EDTV set.

It should look a fair amount better than DVD, especially in terms of color
quality (color being encoded at half resolution on both DVD and HDTV; thus
color resoltion is roughtly twice as good on HD as DVD, and an ED display
will be able to show that improved color resolution as it still falls within
its resolution capabilities), but also with slightly better horizontal
resolution (800+, whatever the width of the display is, vs 720), and
sometimes, depending on how the DVD is encoded and played back, very
substantially better vertical resolution due to interlace effects from DVD.
And some subtle artifacts of compression that operate on small scales (that
is, distort groups of pixels when viewed up close) might become moot during
the downconversion from HD, but still be visible from DVD.
Anonymous
October 3, 2004 11:14:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 23:20:39 +0000, Matthew Vaughan wrote:

> But
> since digital includes HD, and most digital content happens to be HD, then
> there's really not much point in a digital tuner that couldn't receive HD
> signals.

I agree with the point you're making, but I disagree with the "most
digital content happens to be HD". In my area most digital broadcasts are
just simulcasts of the analog stations. I have to check carefully to find
the HD programs I want to see.
--
Gerry Wheeler
Naples, FL
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