Unsure about C2D temperatures

[themike]

Sorry about this, I know there is a temperature guide, I read it plus a few threads, but I am still confused... Here are the details of my setup:

Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3 BIOS F9
C2D E4300
2 Gig G-Skill DDR2-800 (2x1GB) @ 5-5-5-15
Thermalright XP-120 heat sink with silent 120mm fan (sunon I think) intalled with Artic Silver 5
Antec Sonata 2 with the rear 120mm fan set to lowest speed (the sound is annoying at higher speed, but if I have no choice.... but REALLY, if I have no choice)
BFG Geforce 7600GT OC with a Zalman VF700-Cu

Now, the BIOS/OC settings. FSB is at 320, multiplier x9, my C2D E4300 is at 2.88Ghz, all voltages stock except Vcore at 1.3375 abd FSB set to +0.1V. CE1, CIA2, EIST, spread spectrum and "limit CPUID max 3" are disabled, CPU fan is connected directly to PSU, so always 100%.

The system has been tested stable with 10h30 Ortho. It does not even boot at 230 Mhz FSB without the +0.1V FSB. It does boot with Vcore at 1.32500 or 1.33125 and is stable with almost anything but eventually reboot when running Ortho.

Now, here are my reading:

CPU-Z:

Core speed 2880 Mhz
Rated FSB: 1280 Mhz

IDLE Readings:

SpeedFan:

Vcore1: 1.31V (which would mean my CPU is actually undervolted... This seems to be due to my PSU giving lower voltages than supposed to (Antec 450 Watts), my %v is at 4.81V)
Ok, temperatures now, tell me if I am wrong at some point:
Temp1: 34C
Temp2: 26C (this is supposed to be Tcase right?)
Temp3: -2C (this would actually mean an ambient temp of 21C)
Core0: 22C
Core1: 31C (those 2 are suposed to be Tcase for each core)

TAT:

CPU 0: 38
CPU 1: 45

Core Temp:

Core 0: 22C
Core 1: 29C

Now, under load (Ortho for 10h30 min)

SpeedFan:

Temp1: 34C
Temp2: 50C (24C higher than Idle, do I have a problem??)
Temp3: -2C
Core0: 46C (Those are Tcase right?, the C2D Temp Guide says 50C is safe, so I am safe right? But delta between Idle and Load is higher than 15.... what's that supposed to mean?)
Core1: 46C

TAT:

CPU0: 59C
CPU1: 61C (this is Tjunction, where 65C is safe, am I right, but still more than 15C delta between Idle and Load)

Core Temp:

Core 0: 44C
Core 1: 45C

If I understand all this correctly, my temps are safe, but still somehow high for a e4300 @ 2.88 Ghz with almost no Vcore boost and a thermalright XP-120 and a 120mm case fan.... And I have a big temperature difference between Idle and Load and it would be supposed to be much smaller since I have a great heat sink.

I would really really appreciate to hear what you guys think about this.
Thanks
Mike

 

[mrknowitall]

Allow me to try to answer a bit. You are a bit confused.

You have 2 Tjunctions (1 in each core) and 1 Tcase. Looks like TAT is getting your Tjunctions correct. Core 0 and Core 1 in Speedfan are Tjunctions. Your Speedfan and CoreTemp readings are clearly offset. You can adjust Speedfan with offsets, but I personally don't see the need. All that I am worried about at this point are my TAT readings of Tjunction.

15-degrees is the difference (roughly) you should see between Tcase and Tjunction. One of those temps in Speedfan is your Tcase...but again, I'm not sure that it's really necessary to worry about Tcase. 25-degrees is the max difference you want to see between Tjuncction at idle and Tjunction at 100% TAT load. Your load temps are from Orthos, which are not as high as you will see with TAT loading.

Also I think it's very strange how big of a temperature difference there is between your two cores at idle.

 

[themike]

what should I do about this big temperature difference between idle and load???

 

[themike]

I dont know if any of you is familiar with the thermalright socket 775 adapter for socket 478 CPU cooler... It's an "X" that is screwed on the backplate of the motherboard. It's hard to explain (especially for a frech guy who has to write in english).

You can see a big picture of what this adapter is there: http://www.pc-look.com/boutik/product_plus2imagesold.php?products_id=1788

Now, my questions is, do you guys think my high temperatures difference between idle and load are because the screws that attach the backplate to the 2 plastic retainers are not tight enough? I'm not sure how to say this in english, but, does the CPU-Heatsink contact need to have a high pressure? I am worried about tighting this too much, so I would like to be a bit more sure before I do this.

Thanks guys!

 

[flyer335]

Howdy ThereMike,

I dont know if any of you is familiar with the thermalright socket 775 adapter for socket 478 CPU cooler... It's an "X" that is screwed on the backplate of the motherboard.

I had a Zalman 7700(?) that required the adapter as well. If you mean the two screws that affix the heatsink/fan to the adapter top plate, then yes, they require tightening sufficient enough to bend the retainer "ears" down toward the cpu heatspreader. Test by pushing down on the heatsink (down=toward cpu) while the computer is running and warmed up. If your Coretemp readings decrease within a minute,you need to reset your heatsink. That would also explain the difference between cores; which I would be more concerned with.

TonyB.

MSI P6NSLI Platinum, ver, 1.0
E6400 @2.14; idle=36c load=46-50c NOW=42/43c
(free air)
SJN1100b?, SytheNinja rev.B w/120mm sythe fan
2x1GB PDC6400LLK @800MHz
Antec TP430
XFX Fatal1ty 7600GT

 

[themike]

Applying a manual pressure to the heat sink dosent seem to change anything to temperatures.

About the difference in temperatures between the 2 cores, I find it strange too, but it's only different when idle, at load, temps are the same (+/- 1C).

Today, the difference between the 2 cores is "only" 5-6C. Maybe it's the artic silver 5 that wasent spead evenly and it starting spead better now.... I really have no clue what's going on. you guys would be worried with these temps or .... ?

The 4 major questions I have are:

What do these temps tell you (is it too hot, is it safe, is it more than safe and I have some more room for OC while keeping CPU to a safe temp)?

Do you think the difference between idle and load is too much and what could cause that?

Same question but for the diff in temp between Core 0 and 1 at idle.

Do these temps looks normal to you for a e4300 at 2.88 Ghz 1.3375V Vcore with a thermalright XP120 (with a 120mm fan at about 2000 RPM) in a case with a 120mm case fan (Antec Sonata 2 case fan set at low speed)?

 

[mrknowitall]

I think you are about maxed out on the OC imho. Some places you see people with the 'if it doesn't reboot it's OK' attitude. Around here everybody seems to want to keep their TAT 100% load temps under about 70 (some 65, some 75, you get the idea).

BUT, we don't know what your TAT 100% temps are. Run TAT at 100% for 10 minutes and report the temepratures read on the cores via TAT.

You temp between idle and load is not big (see the Core 2 Duo temp guide sticky) but that is because you are not reporting load temp from TAT 100% load.

I have never seem a temp difference between 2 cores as large as your (mine is uaully 2-3 degrees at tidle) but then I haven't been around here for very long.

 

[themike]

Ok, I've tested with TAT both cores at 100% for 10 minutes and my MAX temps was 68 for CPU 1 and 71 for CPU 2.

 

[mrknowitall]

I'm at about the same place as you. I'm scared to turn up the speed any higher. In fact I think I will be lapping my cpu this weekened...damn concave e4300's.

 

[themike]

I'm at about the same place as you. I'm scared to turn up the speed any higher. In fact I think I will be lapping my cpu this weekened...damn concave e4300's.

Please, keep me posted about the result of this!

 

[Pax2All]

Before you lap, it appears that TAT and the latest Core Temp build (0.95) assume a tjunction max of 100c on this chip. Intel has not made it clear whether the actual tjunction max is 85c or 100c or something else. IF the tjmax of the e4300 is 85c then TAT is overreporting temps on this chip by an average of +15c. Until Intel gives us more (oh I gotta ) intel, hold on to your warranty. Your chip is probably fine.

 

[CompuTronix]

From the Core 2 Duo Temperature Guide:

Specifications

Intel's Thermal Specification: http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SL9S8

Thermal Specification:

* The thermal specification shown is the maximum case temperature at the maximum Thermal Design Power (TDP) value for that processor. It is measured at the geometric center on the topside of the processor integrated heat spreader.

X6800 = 60.4c, Vcore max = 1.3525, TDP = 75w
E6700 = 60.1c, Vcore max = 1.3525, TDP = 65w
E6600 = 60.1c, Vcore max = 1.3525, TDP = 65w
E6400 = 61.4c, Vcore max = 1.3525, TDP = 65w
E6300 = 61.4c, Vcore max = 1.3525, TDP = 65w
E4300 = 61.4c, Vcore max = 1.3250, TDP = 65w
** For processors without integrated heat spreaders such as mobile processors, the thermal specification is referred to as the junction temperature (Tj). The maximum junction temperature is defined by an activation of the processor Intel® Thermal Monitor. The Intel Thermal Monitor’s automatic mode is used to indicate that the maximum TJ has been reached.

Desktop C2D's = 85c
Ambient Temperature = 22c
Idle to Load Delta Max = 25c
Tcase + 15c = Tjunction
Thermal Sensor Accuracy = +/-1c

At 200 Mhz FSB, Core Temp may detect an E4300 as a Mobile C2D, which is Tjiunction 100c, as are the Quad Core's.

Hope this helps,

Comp

 

[Pax2All]

Thanks compu . This means that TAT and Core Temp 0.95 do read high on the e4300 by an average of +15c because they assign the tjunction max of 100c to this chip. 8)
(heres the actual e4300 link)
http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SL9TB
Check out the Vcore numbers. I think I'm going to do some more undervolting :mrgreen:

 

[mrknowitall]

CoreTemp 0.94 for my e4300 listed Tjunction as 85 and core temps were 15-deg below TAT. CoreTemp 0.95 lists Tjunction as 100 and temps agree with TAT.

I though the consesus was that TAT was reading e4300s correctly?

 

[Pax2All]

 

[mrknowitall]

Right now my e4300 is at 2.7-GHz and 1.325 volts.

It is idling at ~44 according to TAT.

If your 15-deg offset were true...then my core would be idling at 30-deg C. According to Compu, the Tcore to Tcase temp difference is roughly 15..which means my Tcase would be 15 deg...maybe 20 deg. But that's less than the ambiant of 23-deg in the room.

 

[Pax2All]

What are your actual readings according to Core Temp 0.94?

 

[mrknowitall]

right now CoreTemp 0.94 says 25 and TAT says 42

 

[Pax2All]

What is your system temp and what are your load temps? Setup details?

edit: Ouch...I see you already lapped

 

[CompuTronix]

TheMike, mrknowitall, flyer335 and Pax2All, it seems that far too many users are becoming fixated on Core Temp's "Tjunction 85c" or "Tjunction 100c", and are also becoming confused by this field. I want to make it clearly understood that regardless of version, Core Temp's Tjunction field simply shows Intel's Tjunction max specification, and is INFORMATION ONLY!

Regardless of what Core Temp reports, Intel's spec's for Desktop C2D's (E4300 included) is 85c, while Mobile C2D's and Quad Cores are 100c. All too often, Core Temp does not report this Tjunction max spec correctly, and can misreport it at different FSB frequencies. This seems to confuse many users, so for this very reason, I no longer recommend Core Temp, since the release of SpeedFan 4.32, which can correct for offsets, while Core Temp can not.

From the Guide:

Troubleshooting

(I) Core Temp shows Tjunction 85c or 100c. This is Intel's Tj max spec, and is information only.

Core Temp causes a tremendous amount of confusion with this Tjunction field, so my recommendation is to disregard Core Temp's Tjunction max spec. I hope this helps to clear up this issue, and put it to bed.

Comp 8)

 

[Pax2All]

Computronix thats the crux of the issue.TAT and Core Temp 0.95 misreport the tjunction max of the e4300 and assign it at 100c instead of 85c. In fact the new 0.95 Core Temp build had the tjunction upped to 100c for the E4300 in its code so load temps would agree with TAT. That means the figure has real impact and is not just for information. As you have said the E4300 has a tjunction of 85c not 100c.

*****Update******
http://softwarecommunity.intel.com/isn/Community/en-US/forums/thread/30231602.aspx
Link credit to Billyc
Edit straight from Intels mouth-
Quote:
Some steppings of the mobile Intel® Core™2 processor do indicate Tj to be approximately 85 or 100 via a single bit in the EXT_CONFIG register (msr 0EEh) but desktop, workstation and server processors do not. Nor is there a register implemented in those processors that software can read to get the Tj value for either the Pentium® 4 processor, Intel® Xeon® processors or Intel® Core™2 processors.

Folks until we actually figure out the Tjunction of our chips we are all up a creek when it comes to accurate temp measurement. TAT is only guessware.

 

[themike]

See, that's why I'm so confused about my temperatures, everywhere I read in this forum, we never know if temperature reported is Tcase or Tjunction, or we dont know if there is an offset or not. It all seems to depend on the motherboard, the C2D model and now it may even depend on the stepping!

How am I supposed to know??? With all these "may be offset of +/- 15C", it's not even useful to monitor temperatures.

Please, if anyone know any way of being sure of any temperature at all (no matter if it's Tcase or Tjunction or even Tjunction of 1 specific core), please help us! I dont care if speedfan or if CoreTemp report bad temperatures if I can know 1 software that reports the correct one, I'll use whatever software I have to use to finally know how hot or cold my CPU is running.

 

[CompuTronix]

Pax2All, thanks for the link. It's been my experience that trying to get a straight answer from Intel, unless they're inclined to give one, is like trying to get an elaphant to tapdance. If we simply apply some logic, we can deduce that since the E4300 is not a Mobile or a Quad, it's maximum junction temperature is 85c, regardless of steppings or readable register bits. If anyone cares to prove it, unplug the cooling fan and watch it shutdown at 85c.

Comp 8)

 

[CompuTronix]

TheMike, I've given everyone the information and methods to work out their temps correctly, and it DOES work. C2D temperatures aren't rocket science, so don't give up. It's all in the Guide, and I just simply don't have enough hours in the day and night to help everyone individually. I realize there's alot of information to digest in the Guide, so keep re-reading it until you understand. If you pay too much attention to everyones thoughts and comments on temperatures, then you invite confusion. Focus on the Guide. It works.

Comp 8)

 

[Pax2All]

What data do you base your Tjunction formula off of? I hope it is 85c because that would mean CoreTemp 0.94 was right all along.