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Does Watercooling Suck?

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March 22, 2007 9:14:56 PM

Ive always thought that watercooling was the next step in cooling, above air. The "enthusiest" solution if u will.

Now, trying to pick the right coolers for my next ultimate-end PC, i see that watercooling is actually not much better than air-cooling at keeping down temperatures.

This, coupled with the headache that u get with trying to set up watercooling, means to me that watercooling kind of well.. sucks.
I mean watercooling is a lot more expensive than air-cooling, its much more difficult to set up, its noisier, there are a lot more things that u have to worry about.. and frankly, if the cooling isnt better, why bother?

VF900 beats Tide Water

CNPS 9500 beats Big Water

My guess is that air-cooling has come so far in the past year that high-end air coolers, like the Tuniq Tower, the Scythe Infinity, the VF900, the HR-03, and the CNPS 9700, have just become a lot better than noisy watercooling.

Now, im assuming that if u have enough money, u could probably get a watercooling kit that will outdo any air cooler.. but then where is price/performance being concearned? I can buy a Tec9 cooler, or a Liquid Nitrogen cooler, or even build my own for that price.


So does anyone agree with this, or have i just been looking in the wrong place for watercooling (it seems to be the only ones that u can find now-adays)?

Thnx for listening.

More about : watercooling suck

March 22, 2007 9:38:53 PM

LOL you are comparing low-end water-cooling kits to high-end air-coolers.

One thing for you to think about though is that standard lquid cooling cannot take your cpu below ambient air temps. That is because the liquid is not cooler than the air it is surrounded by unless you were to put the radiator into a chiller of some sort. My system usually sits within 2-4C of ambient air temps. I would love to see an air cooler do the same thing without relying on a peltier (or other chiiler tech).

Another thing that you are wrong about is you said liquid cooling is noisier than air cooling. You are way wrong there. I have a Gigabyte 3D Galaxy liquid cooling kit and with the fan on the radiator at 1200-1500RPM I cannot hear it. Heck I can hear the fan on my 8800GTS, and the fan on my nForce590 northbridge. But I cannot hear the fan on my radiator, even if I put my ear within 2 feet of it I cannot hear it. Nor can I hear my pump it is pretty much silent as far as I can tell.

Yes I have to empty and flush my cooling system at least once a year. But I feel the superior cooling is worth it. Plus ut us hard to beat the sight of 5/8" OD tubing glowing a bright blue under the light from my UV cold cathode lights.

And inthe past 1.5 years and 2 upgrades I have not had to buy a new heatsink since my liquid cooling kit worked on each type with any modifications. Or having to buy extra hardware.

So I feel that my money has been well spent.

-ouch1

BTW check out the following sites for good water cooling:
http://www.dangerden.com/news.php
http://www.shoppts.com/
http://www.xoxide.com/
http://www.frozencpu.com/
March 22, 2007 10:54:46 PM

So ur saying that the Thermaltake solutions are "low-end"? Low-end as in what, they have bad waterblocks/inefficient pumps?

Alright, so if medium-end or high-end watercooling is better, then where do i find it? i have not been able to find anything other than "all-in-one" solutions like the Big Water, the Tide Water and the Zalman one that looks like a.. rocket ( :lol:  ).

And would these high-end solutions be more costly? If i can build a single watercooling solution and run it through my graphics card AND my CPU, then i think i may just be able to justify the cost.

Thnx again!
Related resources
March 22, 2007 11:23:15 PM

Quote:
So ur saying that the Thermaltake solutions are "low-end"? Low-end as in what, they have bad waterblocks/inefficient pumps?


Try thier best pump is only 400Lph (roughly 100GalPH) and thier biggest tubing is 3/8" ID (inner-diameter). Most of Dangerden's kits come with 1/4" ID tubing instead of the 3/8" on some of thier kits. While most mid range pumps do at least 200GalPH (usually around 240-250GalPH) while using 1/2" ID tubing. That means alot more water comes in contact with your CPU's water block over the same given time as the Thermaltake kit can do. Plus most mid range kits have darn near silent pumps.

Quote:
Alright, so if medium-end or high-end watercooling is better, then where do i find it? i have not been able to find anything other than "all-in-one" solutions like the Big Water, the Tide Water and the Zalman one that looks like a.. rocket ( :lol:  ).

Check out these sites and you will find good deals on mid range liquid cooling kits, and if you are up to it high-end liquid cooling too:
DangerDen
Petra's Tech Shop
xOxide
FrozenCPU
Dorectron

Quote:
And would these high-end solutions be more costly? If i can build a single watercooling solution and run it through my graphics card AND my CPU, then i think i may just be able to justify the cost.

Thnx again!


High-end can be more costly but can allow for way more overclocking than air cooling will give you. Chek out Dangerden or Petra's. They both have some really good stuff.

Heck to give you an idea how much you can OC on water-cooling DangerDen created a waterblock for the 8800GTS video cards (it is finally available), and people have reported 30% overclocks without a problem. That is at least 650MHz on the GPU and 2.1GHz on the RAM compared to a stock 500MHz for the GPU and 1.6GHz for the RAM. All with virtually silent cooling!
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March 23, 2007 12:23:49 AM

My 130 dollar titan Nikita, modded for better airflow and quieter operation (near silent, quieter than my ultra silent 120mm rear case fan) runs my system a little warmer than air cooling but at a fraction of the noise. My x850xt never goes over 40 degrees (core). Water cooling is just crazy more expensive than air cooling which only really shines in large cases with plenty of cold air coming in. If the air sits in a fully loaded case on air coolers and high end video cards, it gets hot very fast, not to mention noisy. Really, water cooling pwns. My CPU never goes over 40C on hot (30C) days.
March 23, 2007 1:20:53 AM

Alright..

So having larger tubes is better? The bigger the better?
And having the most Liters per hour? If the noise on the 400 L/hour is roughly 16dbA, i dont see why i cant get even a 2000 L/hour pump.
And then it basicly has to do with how u cool the water, right? I can have a few fans.. or maybe do something more effective.
Thats the whole build right?

I do have a concearn though..
On all the watercooling systems ive seen, the water goes THROUGH the CPU and then into the GPU.. so all the hot water is taken from the CPU and then put onto the GPU. Isnt that pretty bad cooling for the GPU?

And also, im going to have a very large ammount of airflow inside my case. Would air cooling be better than watercooling in that instance?
I really dont see the point in spending twice as much money, only to be able to overclock my CPU to 4.5Ghz, instead of 4.0Ghz..
The GPU however is another story, but i dont see an all-in-one GPU only cooler except the Tide Water wich sucks.
March 23, 2007 2:09:32 AM

meh, watercooling isnt worth the price you pay for it. the cheap models are at high risk of leaking and dont really cool your processor that much better than a high end heatsink and fan. If you want really good cooling youll have to buy the expensive water cooling. To be perfectly honest if your looking to overclock all current processors can overclock well on high end air coolers. You will usually reach a wall in stability issues between the cpu/ram/motherboard before you reach stability issues with heat....just something to think about
March 23, 2007 2:25:33 AM

Water is a lot of work and money....

Is it worth it? Only if you OC your C2D past 4Ghz....

Is vapour chill better with less hassels? Probably yes no leaks and better preformance. (good if the power bills are inclusive of the rent)
March 23, 2007 2:59:22 AM

Are you kidding me? If you know anything about watercooling, you would know not to use those two pieces of $h** for a comparison.

Haven't you heard the rule of thumb? "The best aircooler is nearly equal to the worst watercooler".

Its also not that expensive. For a high end set-up (CPU+GPU+NB+3fanrad+2fanrad), it hits around 400. To get a reasonable set-up, (CPU+GPU+2fanrad+1fanrad), you are right below 300.

Regarding phase change, retail units are not worth it for the $$$, and the fact that they cannot handle quad-cores. If you go phase change, save a lot of money, and either build one yourself, or get someone else to.

The reality is, w/cooling is easier to maintain, as you don't need to worry about condensation as with phase change.
March 23, 2007 3:55:18 PM

Ok, so if i build this, its going to be high-end or it wont be worth the hassle. But that would cost a bundle right?

The best pump ive seen on Swiftech's site is a 350gph and its very expensive. Although ive found a 325gph pump for 15$, does that mean its crap?

And my biggest question is - how can i cool the water to below ambient temperatures? I thought of freezing it, but that would cause condensation in the tubes, due to the difference in temperatures between the inside of the water tank and the outside.. any other suggestions? seems that if i can just cool the water to ambient temperatures, air cooling is a better idea price/performance wise.

One last thing! I saw some guy "boil" his CPU, as in he used watercooling and turned off the pump so the water that came in contact with the CPU came to a quick boil. Then he turned his pump back on and his temperatures went from 30-40C to 3-4C.. and my guess is that he fucked up the sensor chip that was supposed to detect the CPU temperature.. either that or making ur CPU hotter.... makes it colder :?
March 23, 2007 4:29:15 PM

Quote:
I do have a concearn though..
On all the watercooling systems ive seen, the water goes THROUGH the CPU and then into the GPU.. so all the hot water is taken from the CPU and then put onto the GPU. Isnt that pretty bad cooling for the GPU?


It's not the most effective, but it still works good that way. I have a dual radiator system that goes cpu > rad> gpu > rad > res > pump.

Go get a Swiftech Apogee GT, that block is amazing. I have seen my idle temp dip below ambient temp for a sec but stays about 1-2 degrees above. As for the gpu I recommend the Danger Den Maze 5. I have a suspicion that the temp diode on the 7900 does not read below 30C, because it remains there at idle.

One more thing...my liquid system is far quieter that my air cooled system.
March 23, 2007 4:59:03 PM

That guy's cpu would have to be at least 100c to boil water unless he used an additive that lowered the water's boiling point.
March 23, 2007 9:39:06 PM

The best water cooling solution is a DIY. The top-of-the-line products are listed in order of their quality IMHO:

Aqua Computer
PolarFlo
DangerDen
Koolance
Thermaltake
March 23, 2007 11:47:29 PM

Whomever said that watercooling is not as effective as air doesn't really understand physics.

Water will always have better thermal capacity than air.
Why do you think cars use radiators and coolant to remove heat? The question is really what is the best system to use.

The key is to have a good heat exchanger and have the appropriate flow to have a low delta T across it. The higher the flowrate, the lower the drop across the cooler. The larger the heat exchanger/fan combo, the closer to ambient you can get.

To run chilled water you can insulate the water tubes and coat exposed surfaces with insulating rubber. If you reduce surface temperature to below the dew point, you can eliminate condensation problems.
March 24, 2007 12:11:23 AM

which is needed for combustion, which makes thre car go.
March 24, 2007 6:45:55 AM

not much to add here but my own opinion of course.

I agree with the original assumption. Water cooling is potentially dangerous, loud, not really necessary, and more expensive the conventional cooling.

My buddy had water cooling on a very high end custom built system a few years ago and had a leak that destroy his Athlon FX-57, and motherboard which at the time accounted for a loss of about US$1,300.00

I didn't like it either, it was way too loud. Especially today with modern CPU's designed with better thermals and high end air cooled heat sinks that can be nearly impossible to saturated with heat I just don't see the point.

I think water cooling is something to mess with ONLY after you've done everything else you can to a system.
March 24, 2007 7:26:12 AM

that sports cars have huge air ducts to get more oxygen into the engine...the air ducts are not for cooling. The engine is cooled 95% by the water in the coolant system which uses is the radiator to cool that water. That water is air cooled and coolant cooled inside the radiator, but the air ducts have nothing to do with that. A car's engine is a "water cooled" system.
March 24, 2007 7:57:57 AM

When done right a water cooled setup will stomp an air cooled setup every time with higher overclocks, overclock stability, and thermal performance. DIY systems are much better than kits, research the components before you buy.
For below ambient temps a peltier with a water block is the way to go, of course with all extreme setups there is the possibility of failure. You can't live on the edge without getting cut every now and then. There are ways to limit the chance of failure and/or minimize the damage but it is always a possibility. It is what being an enthusiast is all about, and we all have the "scars" to prove it.
Water cooling is something noobs should not get involved in, cheap "kits" burn many a noob. Most of whom should have never opened their "dell" in the first place.
March 24, 2007 8:46:24 AM

Quote:
not much to add here but my own opinion of course.

I agree with the original assumption. Water cooling is potentially dangerous, loud, not really necessary, and more expensive the conventional cooling.

My buddy had water cooling on a very high end custom built system a few years ago and had a leak that destroy his Athlon FX-57, and motherboard which at the time accounted for a loss of about US$1,300.00

I didn't like it either, it was way too loud. Especially today with modern CPU's designed with better thermals and high end air cooled heat sinks that can be nearly impossible to saturated with heat I just don't see the point.

I think water cooling is something to mess with ONLY after you've done everything else you can to a system.


So because your friend had a loud watercooling kit all of them in existence are loud and crappy huh? Heh...

The great thing about watercooling is that you can either buy a kit to your needs, or better yet DIY the system according to your needs precisely - which can mean GREAT cooling with some noise, or very good cooling in near silence. It's completely customisable, which is one of the most appealing factors. If you do buy a whole kit though, don't go with the **** ones the OP mentioned, at least get a Swiftech one.
March 24, 2007 3:09:57 PM

In a gasolineengine:
The fuel is sprayed into the cylinder in a very fine mist.
The fuel mixes with air from the air intake to create a volitile mixture.
The spark plug(s) ignight the fiel.
The resulting explosion drives the piston downwards.
The piston which is attached to the crank shaft turns the crank shaft.
The crank shaft turns the drive shaft.
The drive shaft turns the wheels.

In a diesel engine:
The diesel is spray into the cylinder in a very fine mist.
The diesel mixes with air from the air intake to create a volitile mixture.
The piston is perfectly timed and calibrated to start it's upward stroke as the diesel is being spray into the cylinder.
The piston compressed the diesel until it explodes which drives the piston downwards.
The piston which is attached to the crank shaft turns the crank shaft.
The crank shaft turns the drive shaft.
The drive shaft turns the wheels.
March 24, 2007 3:29:27 PM

Your right but idk what was going on so I just posted...
March 24, 2007 4:37:26 PM

Well, you do have turbo chargers that force air into the engine at high speed which creates pressure but other than that it is just miniscule amounts. Even with a turbo it is still small.
March 24, 2007 4:39:08 PM

Man, you could get like 5 phase change coolers and mod them for the CPU, GPUS, NB, and SB.
March 24, 2007 7:29:22 PM

Yeah, true.
March 24, 2007 7:47:15 PM

I still dont know wich pump to buy.. the cheap one that i found can only pump water to a height of 5 feet (whatever that means), and the expensive one can pump it to 10.

And i still havnt found a good radiator and i dont understand how im supposed to use "peltiar". The radiator is the most important part, but everyone keeps saying that the Thermaltake big water sucks, and is "low end", when i cant find a radiator that is better than what they have - a heatsink and a fan.
March 26, 2007 2:37:57 AM

About pumping the water to 10 feet.. it would pump it through 10 feet of tubes at least, so wouldnt the fact that it says that it can pump it to 10 feet, meaning that it would be more powerfull in all? Even if it didnt really pump it upwards 10 feet?

And i really really wish i could shop at frozenCPU.. or any US online store for that matter. They seem to have excellent stuff that i would love to buy.

thnx for ur help!
March 27, 2007 2:28:44 AM

Quote:
Ive always thought that watercooling was the next step in cooling, above air. The "enthusiest" solution if u will.

Now, trying to pick the right coolers for my next ultimate-end PC, i see that watercooling is actually not much better than air-cooling at keeping down temperatures.

This, coupled with the headache that u get with trying to set up watercooling, means to me that watercooling kind of well.. sucks.
I mean watercooling is a lot more expensive than air-cooling, its much more difficult to set up, its noisier, there are a lot more things that u have to worry about.. and frankly, if the cooling isnt better, why bother?

VF900 beats Tide Water

CNPS 9500 beats Big Water

My guess is that air-cooling has come so far in the past year that high-end air coolers, like the Tuniq Tower, the Scythe Infinity, the VF900, the HR-03, and the CNPS 9700, have just become a lot better than noisy watercooling.

Now, im assuming that if u have enough money, u could probably get a watercooling kit that will outdo any air cooler.. but then where is price/performance being concearned? I can buy a Tec9 cooler, or a Liquid Nitrogen cooler, or even build my own for that price.


So does anyone agree with this, or have i just been looking in the wrong place for watercooling (it seems to be the only ones that u can find now-adays)?

Thnx for listening.


Quote:
... you can get a Silent Water kit for around $60 US, about what you'd pay for some high-end air-cooling solutions. Its performance is on par with air-cooling as well, but one shouldn't expect dramatic results. The Silent Water's appeal comes from its small footprint, ease of installation and low cost. Its cooling performance won't impress most watercooling enthusiasts, but they are clearly not the target market here. It can be quiet, but it's loud when running at top speed. All in one watercooling for $60 is the big draw for the Silent Water, not its cooling performance.


Did you read the article?
March 27, 2007 2:36:25 AM

Managing a watercooled system, whether a cheap, mid or high end system, takes more effort, time, skill, and a varying amount of maintenance/operating cash to keep it functioning. They are not for everybody.
While a quality air cooled heat sink/fan combo can perform exceptional, even when overclocked moderately high, and unless the fan goes south, then it should not cause any trouble or expense other than dusting occasionally.
March 27, 2007 3:22:57 AM

of course it sucks!

from the inlet of the pump.
and it blows from the outlet end of the pump.
March 27, 2007 4:34:08 AM

Quote:
Managing a watercooled system, whether a cheap, mid or high end system, takes more effort, time, skill, and a varying amount of maintenance/operating cash to keep it functioning. They are not for everybody.
While a quality air cooled heat sink/fan combo can perform exceptional, even when overclocked moderately high, and unless the fan goes south, then it should not cause any trouble or expense other than dusting occasionally.


Of couse I didnt read the whole article - Im part of the computer generation and i hate reading. Im sure u know whats thats like.

For me, building the watercooling system is most of the fun. Im mainly doing it because of the challange.

Quote:
of course it sucks!

from the inlet of the pump.
and it blows from the outlet end of the pump.


An excellent summery to my question, and this thread. We can conclude on that.

Thank you everyone very much!
March 27, 2007 4:50:16 AM

Quote:
For me, building the watercooling system is most of the fun. Im mainly doing it because of the challange.


TaDa!!! This is the real heart and soul of water cooling enthusiasts... Building, not kit slapping one in your rig... and that takes research, planning, determination and skill, with a smidgen of luck... :p 
March 27, 2007 8:02:12 AM

Tell me about it.

I started with the Cooler Master Aquagate. What it resembles now is something mutant.
March 28, 2007 1:39:23 AM

Okay, so you've just now built a custom watercooled rig. It was fun to put together, and it keeps everything chilled nicely. Now you get invited to a LAN party, how do you safely move your computer to the site? Do you have to drain the water and take apart stuff? Can you safely move it without a reinforced water-proof, peanut packed, hard case? Just wonding what watercooling does to the portability of your machine.

That said, why stop at watercooling? Learn something about refrigeration and build a compressor free heat pipe system using R134A or the like.
March 28, 2007 4:28:06 AM

It has been done many times before, infact, a new company is making a box just like you describe...
March 29, 2007 2:51:20 AM

A friend of mine bought a high-end carrying case to ship his CPU enclosure to Kuwait for a year of duty. It worked pretty well for him actually, no damage at all. I think it was a pelican or another name brand that started out building shipping cases for rifles.

My question is more a rhetorical question actually. I didn't see it mentioned before as a factor to consider (going watercooling) so I thought it worth mentioning for consideration.

I think the heatpipe way would be better than watercooling as you wouldn't have to service or maintain it in any way. I think Zalman has a case out right now that is all heatpipes, maybe even no fans but I can't remember. I think it was for sale at www.svc.com

Any thoughts?
March 29, 2007 8:21:56 PM

Quote:
A friend of mine bought a high-end carrying case to ship his CPU enclosure to Kuwait for a year of duty. It worked pretty well for him actually, no damage at all. I think it was a pelican or another name brand that started out building shipping cases for rifles.

My question is more a rhetorical question actually. I didn't see it mentioned before as a factor to consider (going watercooling) so I thought it worth mentioning for consideration.

I think the heatpipe way would be better than watercooling as you wouldn't have to service or maintain it in any way. I think Zalman has a case out right now that is all heatpipes, maybe even no fans but I can't remember. I think it was for sale at www.svc.com

Any thoughts?


Yeah if water sucked them my temps would blow right?

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/MyOpty...

You be the guide. BTW those are BOTH GPU load temps and CPU LOAD temps. I had RTHDRIBL stress my cards while stressing the CPU on orthos.


And currently im on a E6600 with dual pumps and dual rads at 1.45V @ 3.6ghz as i am typing this, she is idling happy at 28C. This would be = to a tuniq on my settings running at 40-44C idle. incase your wondering.


So yes it sucks :X (being sarcastic here)
March 31, 2007 1:15:56 AM

I'm very glad your system is working nicely for you. I don't think water cooling sucks but overrated. Sure you can get an awesome setup but it costs so much to get a reliable and significant difference to HSF such as the one you mentioned.

Really, I'm not trying to be a downer, I really am glad your system works so well. You did not address the issues that weigh as cons to watercooling such as cost, portability, etc.

For the extreme enthusiast, it obviously does not suck. My opinion is that for most enthusiast, it's a novelity, not necessarily worth the trouble.
March 31, 2007 2:28:27 AM

Quote:
I'm very glad your system is working nicely for you. I don't think water cooling sucks but overrated. Sure you can get an awesome setup but it costs so much to get a reliable and significant difference to HSF such as the one you mentioned.

Really, I'm not trying to be a downer, I really am glad your system works so well. You did not address the issues that weigh as cons to watercooling such as cost, portability, etc.

For the extreme enthusiast, it obviously does not suck. My opinion is that for most enthusiast, it's a novelity, not necessarily worth the trouble.


hmmmm... okey i'll use my NAS as an example since it uses more economical parts.



The cost? sure it was kinda expensive, but you seriously pay for what you get. Also the deflation value on watercooling parts have been kept steady. Most of its parts still cost the same it first came out.

Portability? You be the Judge:


Its all internal, i dont see the problem if moving it around if i have to. Oh but its not something i would like to take to Lan parties. You can compress a h2o kit smaller and shove it in a TJ-09 without any difficulties. Or a medium tower as well, provided your willing to work on your case a bit.

Just to note, id rather transport a watercooled computer, then a computer with a BIG HSF like the tuniq tower. Less chances of your board snapping on a slight OOPS.

reliability. Okey this is also a topic widely discussed.

If you use a recomended pump, expecially a laing series, most of these pumps have a MTBF = mean time b4 failuer of 50,000hr

I cant think of ANY SINGLE FAN thats raited that high. So reliability, :p  i'll that the MTBF of 50k over a fan. And yes if a pump dies, your cpu will cook. Same can be said about a HSF. If it dies, your cpu will cook. So i dont see any difference.


Upgradability? Swiftech has adapters or mods that will acustom almost any type of board config, from S478 - LGA775


Lastly, heres my NAS's temps. And she's dead quiet as well. The only case ive come across more quiet is the zalman passive setup, however, my temps would blow that rig out of the sky. :D 

March 31, 2007 2:42:29 AM

Quote:
Its all internal, i dont see the problem if moving it around if i have to. Oh but its not something i would like to take to Lan parties. You can compress a h2o kit smaller and shove it in a TJ-09 without any difficulties. Or a medium tower as well, provided your willing to work on your case a bit.

Just to note, id rather transport a watercooled computer, then a computer with a BIG HSF like the tuniq tower. Less chances of your board snapping on a slight OOPS.



no kidding :lol:  i agree 8)

my last lan party(also my first) i finished off my hdd.
needed a new one anyway.

i have the ac freezer64 pro for my s939 sys.
so far no mobo or hsf bracket breakage. ***sirheck knocks on wood***

i move my computer around alot.
March 31, 2007 2:44:33 AM

Quote:
Same can be said about a HSF. If it dies, your cpu will cook.


not neccessarly :wink:
March 31, 2007 3:33:28 AM

hey! where did the dufus go who was talking about cars and vaccume 8O

i read his post. sounded like a wanna be autotech/mechanic
March 31, 2007 3:52:19 PM

After running my system for a while now I have decided to water cool it. After installing my second 8800GTX in my machine so I could run in SLI I noticed a huge increase in GPU temperatures. With one card I was 60C at idle and max 75C load, but when I add the second card it went to 70C idle and as much as 89C load bottom card 84C top card. I have been looking for a solution; there was no air or water solution for the 8800GTX until now. I was on the NVIDIA site and saw a picture of the machine of the month and he had two 8800GTS coolers made by Koolance.com in it. I went to there site and found that they will have one for the 8800GTX on 4-6-07 so I designed a drop in cooling system on there site that will cost $626. In my opinion I think it’s worth it to protect my GPU’s from heat damage. I'm also going to cool the CPU while I'm at it.
March 31, 2007 5:24:32 PM

Quote:
which version of speedfan are you using? 16c seems too low to me, unless you keep your room very cold, as unless you have peltiers in that loop, you can't get below ambient temps because the water can only get cooled down to the room' ambient temp unless you have a peltier or something like phase change, besides liquid nitrogen, those are the two main ways to get below ambient temps


i dont trust speedfan either, but rmclock says the same on coretemp as speedfan.

The ambients taken on both my X2 and Opty were taken almost the same time at 60-62F. I wouldnt exagerate my results.

My CPU will always idle near room temp on the X2. Sometimes a tad bit higher. But never too far from room temp.

The radiator is located at the bottom so the coldest possible air is sucked though the rads and expelled up my case. And yes it does correleate with my load temps on my main at 2.7ghz. on load she only does 28C core temp.


OH i should note, i hacked all my IHS's off as well. AMD's were ment to be naked :D 


Which also brings me back to my main reason why i signed up on this forum. Koolance is a TOY. If you can return it. ITs a joke as a waterkit. Get a petrastechshop elite kit. It will pwn most waterkits on the market now out of the sky. Only way you can do better would be to custom it with a 110 dollar thermochill radiator :D 
March 31, 2007 6:14:14 PM

First, I didn't read the other treads. Sorry if I seem off track.

I myself tought about going watercooled for my last PC that I got about 4-6 weeks ago. I changed my mind when I realized a few things.

1: To really get better performances from watercooling, you have to put the price for it. This means that my Big Typhoon vent. with a 25cm silent side-fan get my 3.0GHZ E6600 (could push it much higher but I want long term stability) never gets above 40C at 100% load. With same priced watercooling, I wouldn't do any better... from the test I've seen.

2: Watercooling sometime makes overclocking even harder. This is because regular ventilator also push "cool" air on the pieces around the part it's cooling. Your cpu cooler also cool down your northbridge and other parts around your cpu. With watercooling, your cpu might be very cool, but these other parts will overheat and stop your overclock before it reach it's limits. You can always add little fan to cool them specificly, but that goes against the point of watercooling, which is silent operation.

So basicly, watercooling will be better than air cooling,, as long as you're ready to put the price for it. Or in other words, you won't get a Ferrari for the price of a Honda.
March 31, 2007 6:22:18 PM

Quote:
i have not read this thread but seeing as it is track the idiot/very intelligent troll i am just going to say as always please go away track no one likes you and i wish you were a dead corpse in the other section.

sorry for disrupting this thread.


Nobody got to get him kicked out Tom's forum yet???? Never saw this assX$/" say anything constructive.

Well, for me it's ignore button time again for him in this tread.
March 31, 2007 8:19:56 PM

aigomorla
Good post my man. I like the photos. That's some nice internal watercooling too.

This is really a good thread, I've seen some really good posts. Hopefully this can help some decide whether or not to take the plunge into watercooling. I was thinking about this discussion at work today and decided I would post one more time to thread. Not trying to get the last word or anything just interested in this discussion.

My opinion on watercoooling
PROS:
Over-clocking potential increase
Cool factor (pun intended)

Cons:
Expensive (Cheapest watercooling kit is approximately same price as the high end air cooled)
Limits computer portability (not as safe or easy to transport generally speaking)
Maintenance required (granted this is pretty minor)
Skill/luck required to effectively and safely setup
Not much/any benefit if you don’t plan to overclock
Overclocking may lead to instability/premature failure

Alternative:
Use the money you would have for a high end water cooling solution to buy a better CPU and/or GPU
March 31, 2007 10:38:00 PM

Quote:
aigomorla
Good post my man. I like the photos. That's some nice internal watercooling too.

This is really a good thread, I've seen some really good posts. Hopefully this can help some decide whether or not to take the plunge into watercooling. I was thinking about this discussion at work today and decided I would post one more time to thread. Not trying to get the last word or anything just interested in this discussion.

My opinion on watercoooling
PROS:
Over-clocking potential increase
Cool factor (pun intended)

Cons:
Expensive (Cheapest watercooling kit is approximately same price as the high end air cooled)
Limits computer portability (not as safe or easy to transport generally speaking)
Maintenance required (granted this is pretty minor)
Skill/luck required to effectively and safely setup
Not much/any benefit if you don’t plan to overclock
Overclocking may lead to instability/premature failure

Alternative:
Use the money you would have for a high end water cooling solution to buy a better CPU and/or GPU



If you think thats a treat heres my main rig. Be prepared to go WTF?!?!

My internals:


My MAX OC. Last i heard she was pushing 3.7ghz on phase from a fellow member, at another forum. I think he's goign to try 4ghz on LN or DI.


What i had her on 24/7 b4 i sold her.


Lastly, the temps i picture i took with my opty at the same ambient listed above:



As i said, i like things very very cool :D  Need to find a way to convince myself to spend the extra 100 per month on tecs tho. :p 

Coming soon is my E6600 pics! Im waiting for my last bit of parts. Ran into a problem with the NB on these suckers. They heat up, and no its not a little but A LOT.

Also to clearfy your your cons.

1. its actually more expensive the expensive air cooling. Decient kits start at 230, while beginer kits, aka corsair nautilus500 start at 150. Thats the only beginner kit i would ever recomend under the 200 price range fyi.

2. gah... another protability question. I need to seriously take a pic of my friends xqpac which i customed. Its all internal, and she has no problem transporting it. It however doesnt use a reservoir and uses a direct t-line.

3. maintence. okey... another common question. You need to do maintence on all computers. i dont see why one thinks its a lot more maintence on a watercooled computer.

1. if your experienced, a flush only takes 10 min. All you really need to do is flush your system out like a car.
2. you need to blow your fins in rad. however you need to do this on all HSF anyhow.
3. If you set it up correctly and right the first time, there would be no need to modify your loop if your happy with it. Only flushing the coolant on intervals of 1yr = if you use additves, and 3-6months on Distilled water straight.


Watercooling does take a lot of research. I highly advice NO ONE to look at threads and think right off the bat, im gonna buy this system. Careful planning and help should be asked from experienced people. And when i say experienced i mean people whose been in this hobby for 1+ yrs. We tend to run into all the nightmare situations you can think of.

To be honest as well, i have LEAKED quite a few times. More out of negligence, then product. At my lvl, you tend to cheat the basic steps. But if you pick the right coolant combos, or use distilled straight, just a simple wipe and retube is all it takes. A noobie, i would recomend never to skip any intermediate step. I am experienced therefore if i do leak, i dont freak out. :p 

Lastly im a bit pasionate when it comes to h2o cooling. So if i sound a bit agressive, i appologize in advance. I just get annoyed when someone who hears a rumor, decides to make it a fact, and then pushes it off as fact. I admit i am human like all people, and i am prone to errors at times, but the errors i will state are usually minute, in terms of physics or dynamics. But my block, setup, and emergency advice have always been on the dot at anandtech.

So once again, for the people i offended, or will offend, i appologize in advance.
April 1, 2007 4:58:52 AM

I've had a Zalman Reserator 1 for a few years now. It's currently cooling my Athlon 64 3700+ (overclocked from 2.2 to 2.6GHz) and Radeon X1900XT

The Reserator was expensive but worth it:

1. Complete silence
2. Lower / stable temperatures

Some other thoughts:

Quote:
I do have a concearn though..
On all the watercooling systems ive seen, the water goes THROUGH the CPU and then into the GPU.. so all the hot water is taken from the CPU and then put onto the GPU. Isnt that pretty bad cooling for the GPU?


It doesn't really work like that. Because the water is moving and because it has a very large heat capacity what actually happens is the water temperature stays fairly constant. It's a simple equilibrium: the radiator gets rid of heat and the CPU/GPU add heat.

In practice what happens is there is a couple of degrees difference between the CPU temp and the GPU temp. If that bothers you, you could use a dual radiator or dual loop system. I did think about buying another Reserator when I bought the X1900XT but in the end didn't think it was worth it. My GPU load temperatures are still much less than they were with the crappy air cooler that came with it.

Quote:
Okay, so you've just now built a custom watercooled rig. It was fun to put together, and it keeps everything chilled nicely. Now you get invited to a LAN party, how do you safely move your computer to the site? Do you have to drain the water and take apart stuff? Can you safely move it without a reinforced water-proof, peanut packed, hard case? Just wonding what watercooling does to the portability of your machine.


It's just another thing to take with you and set up when you get there. Yes you have to drain the water and detach the tubes from the back of the PC case, but it's not a big deal.
April 1, 2007 2:41:57 PM

I Love Tacos, have you actually used a Reserator 1?

My PC is on my desk (it's a SFF cube thing) and I use the PC for playing musics, videos, watching TV and listening to the radio + a bit of gaming from time to time. The killer feature of the Reserator is that it doesn't make any noise at all. I've got one fan in my PC (an ultra-silent 800RPM) and the hard drive lives in a "silent enclosure". The PC is almost completely silent.


It would also be good if you got your facts right:

Quote:
but not big enough to properly cool without fans


Define "properly cool". If you want your CPU to be running at sub-zero temperatures then yes, you are correct the Reserator doesn't cool properly. Otherwise it cools just fine.

Quote:
The reserator 2 is far bigger


Actually it isn't. Zalman have only increased the cooling surface from 1.274 sq. m to 1.5 sq. m, so I'm not sure why they bothered! If they'd pushed the surface area up to 2 sq. m or more it might have been worth the extra money.

Quote:
but it's for a huge amount more


Here in the UK there's not much difference in the price. Both the Reserator 1 and Reserator 2 are around the £200 mark (the Reserator 2 is slightly more and the Reserator 1 slightly less). It's expensive that's for sure.
April 1, 2007 3:41:33 PM

Quote:
But the temps difference between the reserator 1 and the tuniq tower isn't big enough to justify buying it


If it's lower temps you are after then I agree the reserator isn't the best and it isn't worth the money. If, on the other hand, you need the silence then it's pretty good.

As for stability, at the moment my rig is 100% stable. I am slightly concerned about what might happen once summer arrives. Here in the UK global warming is really becoming an issue: I'm expecting this summer to be the hottest we've ever had!
!