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when is software stored and not installed?

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November 19, 2005 8:01:15 AM

looking for unbiased arbitrators for the current software definitions of “install” v. “store”

I'd like some unbiased facts.


here’s the background & summary…

a friend & I had a debate on the software definitions of “install” v. “store”

I agreed & followed his rules:

[*:8166a46d3f]for the sake of staying focused, I agreed to using his choice on “executable (.exe)” as the example for software.
[*:8166a46d3f]I agreed to using his choice on Merriam Webster Online as our unbiased source for definition.
[*:8166a46d3f]I agreed on his choice for definition #3 of “store” = “to place or leave in a location (as a warehouse, library, or computer memory) for preservation or later use or disposal”
[*:8166a46d3f]I agreed on his choice for definition #3 of “install” = “to set up for use of service”



however, we disagreed on the interpretation of definition #3.

he believes that: if you store a software, it’s also installed.
Quote:
2 exceptions (which I concur with):
• if it doesn't work (e.g. incompatible, inoperative, etc…)
• if it's compressed/zipped


I believe that: the ‘state’ of the stored software determines if/when it is installed.

basically, the main disagreement is on when software is installed.


despite that he now admits that he cannot prove me wrong, he remains adamant that I’m wrong. I wrote to him, “with evidence/proof, you can prove someone wrong or right. if I've proven that I'm not wrong; and, you can't prove that I'm wrong; then, how can I still be wrong?” I've told him that, “I don't mind being told that I'm wrong, as long as it's true. however, I don't like being misinformed. I do mind being told I'm wrong, when I'm not wrong; and worst of all, I don't like being corrected with misinformation.

after proving to him that using any transitive definition for set up is incorrect, we also disagreed on which intransitive definition to use. I believe #1 (“to come into active operation or use”) is the most relevant to software. he believes that #1 is wrong and that #4 (“to become firm or consolidated”) is the correct intransitive definition for software.


we disagree on 2 things:
on when software is installed and which intransitive definition to use for set up


here are his reasons for both disagreements:

[*:8166a46d3f]“if you put an executable program on your computer, it is installed”
Quote:
2 exceptions (which I concur with):
• if it doesn't work (e.g. incompatible, inoperative, etc…)
• if it's compressed/zipped

[*:8166a46d3f]“My definition of installing is putting executable code on your computer. Just because it doesn't have an installer and or doesn’t modify the registry doesn't mean its not installed.”
[*:8166a46d3f]“If I store an executable program on my hard disk. I have in fact set it up for use or service, even if i choose not to use it.”
[*:8166a46d3f]“If I store a program that “can be” used. Then it is installed. It is setup for use or service.”
[*:8166a46d3f]“if you receive an .exe program via email/disk/ftp/bluetooth/etc and you store it on your computer, then it is installed. provided that this .exe is a self contained executable that does not require further configuration to be useful.”
[*:8166a46d3f]“a stand alone .exe file that does not require any additional setup to run is installed as soon as you store it. because as soon as you store it, you make it available for use or service”
[*:8166a46d3f]“it doesn't matter where the .exe is stored, as long as I can get to it, I can use it, and it is installed.”
[*:8166a46d3f]“I can install an os on a cd and run my computer from the cd. in this case the software would be considered to be installed on the CD.”
[*:8166a46d3f]“if you put a usable executable program on a CD, then it is considered to be installed on that CD. I would not consider it to be installed on my computer.”
[*:8166a46d3f]“To setup for use or service has no dependency on actual use.”
[*:8166a46d3f]“to become firm or consolidated most correctly applies”
[*:8166a46d3f]“putting files in a place in your file system is consolidating them”



here’s what I believe (which he says I’m wrong):

[*:8166a46d3f]“storing .exe doesn't necessarily mean that it's installed”
[*:8166a46d3f]“it is stored, if it isn't used or activated”
Quote:
{e.g.: when software is stored in cache (as an example for storage), it is not installed until it is used or activated}

[*:8166a46d3f]“there are some programs that only have to be installed once because it's automatically activated after/during the OS boots. when the program is activated (which also includes auto-activation), then it's installed.”

my simple logic statement based on Merriam Webster Online is:
Quote:
install
to “set up” for use or service

set up
to come into “active” operation or “use”

if it's not “activated/used”, it's not installed



regarding which intransitive definition for set up is right, I wrote:

[*:8166a46d3f]“if you can show me that #4 is ‘directly’ related to “software”, then we are both correct.
[*:8166a46d3f]“if you can't prove me wrong, can you prove that intransitive definition #4 is right? why is #4 more relevant than #1?
[*:8166a46d3f]“how is #4 directly related to software? I can use intransitive definition #1 directly with software.
[*:8166a46d3f]“how do you define: “consolidate”, “file”, & “file system” ?

to date, he hasn’t provided me with proof that intransitive definition #4 for set up is the correct definition.


I would like to be enlightened with unbiased facts on the current “software” definitions and differences of “install” and “store”. particularly, I’d like to know when is software considered installed; in other words, when is software stored and not installed?
(and, which intransitive definition for set up is the most relevant to software?)

my friend created rules to remain focus on the issue and I believe it was best to follow them… however, everyone here are allowed to share their unbiased facts (that are directly related & relevant to our debate) without following my friend's rules.
November 24, 2005 3:18:54 AM

Your friend is right. The reason he is right is that he said it had to be a stand-alone executable that would run without further modification. This is the only kind of executable that will run totally self-contained, and wherever you find it stored, it's also by it's very nature installed.

I see where your going with the example of cached code. But your friend would probably say that if it's a stand-alone executable that'll run by itself, then it's installed there, and I think he would be right.

If you store a stand-alone executable, you just installed it. It was set up when it was coded as a stand-alone executable (for an executable that uses dll's I'd say it's installed if all the dll's are available, that is, if it'll run).

Quote:
I would like to be enlightened with unbiased facts on the current “software” definitions and differences of “install” and “store”. particularly, I’d like to know when is software considered installed; in other words, when is software stored and not installed?


It's stored but not installed if it is compressed, split into pieces, or in any other unusable form (assuming it's not unusable due to bugs or compatibility). It is both stored and installed if it's stored in a usable form.

Quote:
my friend created rules to remain focus on the issue and I believe it was best to follow them… however, everyone here are allowed to share their unbiased facts (that are directly related & relevant to our debate) without following my friend's rules.


Your friend created those rules because they are the conditions that must be met in order for a program to be "installed".
November 26, 2005 12:18:32 AM

Quote:
Your friend is right. The reason he is right is that he said it had to be a stand-alone executable that would run without further modification. This is the only kind of executable that will run totally self-contained, and wherever you find it stored, it's also by it's very nature installed.

If you store a stand-alone executable, you just installed it. It was set up when it was coded as a stand-alone executable (for an executable that uses dll's I'd say it's installed if all the dll's are available, that is, if it'll run).

It's stored but not installed if it is compressed, split into pieces, or in any other unusable form (assuming it's not unusable due to bugs or compatibility). It is both stored and installed if it's stored in a usable form.

Your friend created those rules because they are the conditions that must be met in order for a program to be "installed".


hi Confoundicator :D 

I appreciate your reply!

would you say that a socially engineered stand-alone .exe virus that I've received in my e-mail which I moved & stored somewhere in my hard drive (e.g. in My Downloads) without activating it also installed :?: :?
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November 26, 2005 12:25:41 AM

So in effect you have not executed (installed) the virus while technically on your PC as long as never executed.
November 26, 2005 12:51:14 AM

I'd like to know, if a "stand-alone" (that both my friend & Confoundicator agree with) .exe "virus" located somewhere in the hard drive which has not been activated considered 'stored' or 'installed' :?: :?

does a "stand-alone" .exe "virus" contradict with what Confoundicator has just stated :?: :?

if a "stand-alone" .exe "virus" is 'installed'; even if I don't activate it, I'd like to know why :?:
November 26, 2005 1:14:33 AM

I would say "Stored" yet not "Installed."
November 30, 2005 7:43:29 AM

I disagree. Even if it's not activated I would still say it's installed. All it would take is one command it would be running.

If you install photoshop on your computer, but never use it one single time, it's still there. It's still available and can be run at any time. The fact that you never start the program up does not negate the fact that it is installed on your machine.

If a virus is saved onto your hard in a stand-alone ".exe" form, and then is never activated, it is still there available to be started up at any time, and even if it never runs it is still installed there.
November 30, 2005 5:21:35 PM

I agree with Rich on this one for the Virus.

The Virus is stored because you need to run it in which case it will probably modify something, making a change, therefore installing itself.
It is a virus, but it's not a virus until you run it. After the program finishes running, it still leaves behind changes. In a standalone executeable, when it's closed, everything with that program ceases.

Keeping it simple:

Installed and Stored:

When you install something, you run an Exe or MSI, ZIP, etc, which then puts information into your computer, uncompresses files, to create a working program. The program must be 'installed' before it's operational. Stand-alone exes are that operate are generally free or unlicensed products and are designed with this in mind. You'll be hard pressed to find a piece of software that runs stand-alone that you need to pay for.
The stand-alone doesn't 'install' itself. It's stored but in an operable format. The Exe or MSI that is not standalone needs to be uncompressed before operating, therefore in order for it to work, it must be installed.

Stored: If I copy the contents of program CD to C:temp but never install it, then it's stored. To go from Stored to Installed, you would need to execute the 'installation' process. Thus, "install the software."

The only exception is that 'standalone executable.' But bring in a 3rd factor, is it free or licensed software? Then you'll have your definition if it's installed or not.

I used to work with a program called RAM3D. It was older and the new version must be installed. The old version was a standalone executable. Their definition of having it installed is having the standalone EXE on the computer, because it's in operable format.

Remove the Standalone executable and you have a clear cut idea of Installed and Stored.

Installed must uncompress and distribute files. Stored is the compressed, unworkable format of a piece of software.
!