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Watercool vs. TEC for qx6700

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March 28, 2007 11:02:58 PM

Hello,
I want to really push my qx6700...4.0Ghz if possible.
But the thing heats up like a mofo...so what would people reccomend to properly coolthis thing?
I have about 300-400 to play around with. Would straight water be good enough? Or would it be better to try a TEC cooler such as the swiftech 6500?
Any suggestions and combinations of parts would be greatly appreciated!
THANKS!

More about : watercool tec qx6700

March 28, 2007 11:10:28 PM

With $400 you build a great water cooling system, but you cant get below the ambient temp of your room, unless you go for a chilled liquid setup. A TEC can get below ambient temps, but you would have to insulate your mobo socket and cpu with dielectric grease to protect it from condensation, same with chilled liquid. With a good TEC 4ghz is very possible, with water it might be feasible, but somewhere in the high 3ghz range is more likely. I would go for regular water myself, IMO, the insulation of everything isnt worth it unless your using LN2, DICE, or a phase system.
March 29, 2007 2:13:21 AM

Quote:
With $400 you build a great water cooling system, but you cant get below the ambient temp of your room, unless you go for a chilled liquid setup. A TEC can get below ambient temps, but you would have to insulate your mobo socket and cpu with dielectric grease to protect it from condensation, same with chilled liquid. With a good TEC 4ghz is very possible, with water it might be feasible, but somewhere in the high 3ghz range is more likely. I would go for regular water myself, IMO, the insulation of everything isnt worth it unless your using LN2, DICE, or a phase system.


Some good points,
I don't really want to insulate my board from the condensation, as I am sure it would void the warranty. I just want to be able to really push my system, I think I am going for water.
Do you have any suggestions, I have these things in mind
Swiftech 655 pump...or suggestions?
dual 120 mm fan radiator (danger den or swiftech or some suggestions?)
ApogeeGT..GTX cpu block...or suggestions?
reservoir????

As I only want to do my cpu..my 8800gtx is able to oc pretty good with stock cooling, plus its eVGA and i want to take advantage of the turn it in program if the 8900gtx/gx2 comes out soon. Also my striker extreme has preety good north/south bridge cooling. I just want maximum oc from my cpu.

I know the qx6700 is a heating onslaught, so I want to do this right...any setup suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Anyone with similar setup and good oc's let me know how your doing the cooling!!!

THANKS!!!
Related resources
March 29, 2007 1:41:22 PM

Technially yes, it would void the warranty on the board, but your cpu's warranty is already out the door from oc'ing, and all you have to do is wash off/out the dielectric grease and there's no way for the manufacturer to know. Not trying to sway for decision, just saying...



For the radiator I would get a Thermochill PA120.3, $135 right now. Great cooling, you dont need high CFM fans for it to perform well, great all round radiator.

The Swiftech Apogee GTX is the water block you should get, you were right there. The GT is a good choice too, but you would only save $20 if you bought it instead of the GTX.

Pumps and reservoirs are way to varied for me to give a solid recommendation. Iwaki pumps seem to be favored, but they're really loud...
March 29, 2007 7:21:31 PM

Do you think it would be necessary for a triple fan radiator with just the cpu in the loop? I am just wondering because I would like to fit everything into my stakcer 830 case and I am pretty sure a triple 120mm fan rad would not fit.

How big of a difference in temps would I notice from a dual to a triple fan rad?

thanks
March 29, 2007 9:42:37 PM

A triple fan radiator like the PA120.3 isnt necessary, but you did say you wanted to get the most out of your system.

The temp difference between a dual fan and tri fan radiator depends on the radiators compared, The difference between a PA120.3 and PA120.2 would be max, around 5Âșc, thats alot when your trying to get every last mhz out of your proc
April 1, 2007 12:29:06 AM

can i ask you a few ? b4 i help you.

Do you know the proper way to install TEC's on a water loop? As in, your not a noob WCer that thinks he can just add this block alone?


If your answer is yes to the top, then no, stay with water. TEC's is a whole different ballgame my friend.

If your answer is no, and you already planned out your tec, and what voltage to set it at, along with the PSU required to operate it, then go for it! Last time i had the fun to play with TEC's i was pushing -11C loaded on my old X2. It was a grip of fun watching my friends go 8O

But the electricty bill.... expect it to be a lot higher. And im mean like high 2 to low 3 digit increase. :X

Edit, also what the person above me failed to note, is a 120x2 thermochill isnt worth buying. Because it costs 115ish. For fractions more, you could step up to a large radiator which already has a hugh premium on it.

So i would honestly recomend you think up of a way to mount the larger, as its a far better investment. Both upgradeability, and performance, value!
April 3, 2007 3:18:48 AM

I am a newbie to watercooling and TEC's, I was searching around the Swiftech website and I stumbled upon there Tec offering. I saw the preformance comparisons and the below zero idle and I thought that would be perfect for my very hot qx6700. But I have recently (after this post was started) taken a much more in depth look at TEC cooling and I have decided to stick with staright water.

Good point on the rad, it is only a few dollars more.
So I have decided to go with these components:
Swiftech ApogeeGTX
Thermochill PA120.3
Swifthech 655 pump
Tygon hose
Swiftech reservoir (the little one)

How much hose do I need...thinkin about mounting the rad on the back. And fittings, what do i need for fittings?Do these component come with their own connectors or do I need to buy some?

Thanks
April 3, 2007 4:55:49 AM

actually for a setup like yours id go with a d-tek fusion.

You'll see far better flow, and better temps with it vs an apogeeGTX.

Or i would try to upgrade the pump to a DDC-2 /w petratop.
April 3, 2007 10:42:37 PM

Does anybody else have any thoughts about the last post? Would you buy a d-tek fusion cpu block or an apogeeGTX?

I thought the apogeeGTXwas about the best you could get, so does anybody have any comments on the two blocks?
Thanks
April 3, 2007 11:44:48 PM

Quote:
Does anybody else have any thoughts about the last post? Would you buy a d-tek fusion cpu block or an apogeeGTX?

I thought the apogeeGTXwas about the best you could get, so does anybody have any comments on the two blocks?
Thanks


Okey lemme clear a lot of newbie facts about the GT vs GTX vs Fusion.

All these are great blocks however each has 1 specialty vs the other.

For now i will group the GT with the GTX as they are the same block design. The GTX only has wider barb distances to allow the water longer passing time. This is why you get the 1C benifit over the GT. The GT and GTX can be tweeked by doing whats known as a o-ring mod. All the kits now come with this oring. However, you need some knowledge on how to disassemble your block and reassemble it.

ALSO: THIS is a very important note: If you do go though and BOW your block, you need to make sure you really really tighten it to your CPU. How tight your going to ask? Tight enough to break your board, so you best buy a backplate from thermalright, or if you had the big typhoon, use the old backplate off that.

BOWING: does not help an AMD processor, its shown more impact on intels.

*this method of bowing makes the apogeeGT and GTX the current king, however if your not ready to do all it takes, and your scared you'll break your board: and believe me, people have, and they even broke one at CES, then the king is below*

NOW: we get to the next big contender: d-tek fusion

This block has shown to have the lowest flow restriction out of all the other blocks. The flow is so awesome on this block that, even a 655, like yours, can run at full efficiency at lvl1 setting, with a 120.2 radiator. That itself speaks for a lot. The performance on this block also beat the apogeeGT, and its what most people on multi block, single pump loop go on.


Now your wondering okey i learned about this, whats so big about flow?
The longer the coolant stays in your blocks, the hotter your coolant will get. Now if you have a flow restriction, the coolant sits in the blocks longer, and gets warmer. This in turn makes all your other blocks get warmer. If you increased your flow, the blocks now pick up the same amount of heat, but is transported much faster. Less time for water is spent inside the blocks, and your overall effiency is increased.


So you have a 655 aka D5. Your best block will be the d-tek fusion, unless you intend to get a backplate, o-ring mod the GTX, and then.... crank your block on top of that cpu to the point of almost breaking your board. Then sure! get the GTX. It will own, im getting one :p 
April 4, 2007 12:55:58 AM

How much of a difference would you get from a bowed GTX vs. a d-tek fusion? 5degrees C??? 10???

If I had a d-tek fusion i could run the pump on the lowest setting with a 120.2 radiator and get the same temps as running the pump on level 5 setting? How much difference would there be with a 120.3 rad.

That would be nice to be able to run the pump on the lowest setting and get full effeciency because it would run very quiet. I dont mind some noise, but the quieter the better, imo.

This is going to cost a fair amount and I do not want to get the wrong components, this has to be done right.

Any input is greatly appreciated
April 4, 2007 1:22:21 AM

Quote:
How much of a difference would you get from a bowed GTX vs. a d-tek fusion? 5degrees C??? 10???

If I had a d-tek fusion i could run the pump on the lowest setting with a 120.2 radiator and get the same temps as running the pump on level 5 setting? How much difference would there be with a 120.3 rad.

That would be nice to be able to run the pump on the lowest setting and get full effeciency because it would run very quiet. I dont mind some noise, but the quieter the better, imo.

This is going to cost a fair amount and I do not want to get the wrong components, this has to be done right.

Any input is greatly appreciated



hmmmm... where to start.

setting 1 ->5 doesnt make that much increase in noise as long as you use the provided neoprene bottom. Or you use something to absorbe the vibration. Thats where your goign to get the most noise.

120.3 radiator, vs 120.2 radiator wont make that much of a difference. I only suggested the large due to its price difference. The liquid can only get as cold as room temp. The large one would allow you to use slower fans. The liquid is allowed to be chilled in your radiator longer.

You need to put Energy into the cooling for you to go sub ambient, and if thats the case welcome to phase/tec

And how much of a difference is it between a bowed properly seated block vs a d-tek? about 5C Its a lot. But i emphasize properly.

If you funk your mount 1 of 2 things will happen.

1. If you dont apply the required pressure on the CPU with the block, your temps will go up as much as 8C compared to a D-tek. Better think of that.

2. If you dont use a backplate, you'll most definitely snap your board from all that pressure.




To be honest, you have no idea of how to properly mount this thing. You probably never played with a waterblock mounting hardware. Also, im sure you never heard of this bow method nor did enough research. And believe me, there isnt much because very few people could get a good bow to seat properly. I would recomend you stay with a d-tek fusion.
April 4, 2007 1:30:37 AM

I read about the bow on this link:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13...

I think you might be flattering yourself a bit with how hard you are making it seem to mount. Swiftech is shipping the larger o-ring with the block, and these people are using the stock mounting hardware to mount it.

The block in that test is the GT vs the fusion, so i think you could expect to see even better results out of a bowed gtx.

This is something I may consider doing for my setup.
April 4, 2007 2:06:58 AM

Ya, instead of calling everyone a noob and spouting how awesome you are - it would be more helpful to actually answer some questions.

Go with the GTX. It's really easy to setup and works great. Don't listen to this clown.
April 4, 2007 2:21:51 AM

You should check out this if you are looking to spend that much money and not wanting to spend hours working on watercooling.

CoolIT Systems Freezone
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/2398/ex-wat-90/CoolIT...

It is a pretty killer cooler. Check out some of the reviews on it. Great advantages like water cooling along with the TEC but with a lot easier and simple installation. Not sure exactly how well this will work with a quad core i could not find any reviews testing it with one but that does not mean it can't handle it. I found several with Core 2 Duos. Here a few...

http://techgage.com/article/coolit_freezone_cpu_cooler/
http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/coolitfreezone/...
http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=1055
http://www.extrememhz.com/freezone-p1.shtml

Just thought i would show you this too. I am looking at getting this in the next few weeks. I have done the water cooling thing. To much of a hassle for my taste with college and work. For right now the Tuniq Tower does its job well until i am able to get this.
April 4, 2007 2:27:39 AM

Straight water WOULD be easier. I tend to think the pre-made tec/pelt systems are rubbish.

Get an 'impingement' block (spelling?), they do cost more but move heat away from the cpu very well EVEN with a poor pump, but do use a good pump, and DO get a BIG rad, the biggest u can afford.

U can add a pelt/tec like.. cpu -> copper spacer ->pelt -> copper spacer -> water block. However u will have to seal the mobo with dielectric grease and use foam to insulate as temps lower than ambient WILL cause condensation :evil: 

Sooo IMHO, stick with water only, but get an impingement block and a MASSIVE rad, D5 type pump and tygon tubing. Add a rez (essential despite what they say) and maybe a gpu block if u game.

Ohh... also u can lap the cpu and use some of that MassCool Shin-etsu x23 paste, those 2 alone will easily get u 3-4c lower.

That should leave u $100 to blow on coke and hookers :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
April 4, 2007 4:21:01 AM

Quote:
Ya, instead of calling everyone a noob and spouting how awesome you are - it would be more helpful to actually answer some questions.

Go with the GTX. It's really easy to setup and works great. Don't listen to this clown.


Okey fine, dont listen to me, and go ahead with your choices from people who have either no concept in watercooling. Or use koolance kits.

If you dont apreciate my advice, then fine, i'll just leave, but b4 i do i think you shoud seriously take these into concideration.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13...

also about the oring mod being a pain in the butt to install:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13...


Now i dont take likely to people downing me on my experience. I have been in this hobby a lot longer then most people. I am also a regular at XS Forums. Ive been helping a lot of noobs get what they want in water cooling, and many thank me for the choices i lead them make base on budget and objective.

But the moment i get fire towards my way, i dont want to insite a flame so i'll just leave and unsub. As for you OP, you just lost a golden source of resource. And i wish you the best of luck in your parts.

PS. since im seriously gone now, i suggest you find help over at XS Forums and not here for watercooling. The reason why i opened a membership here was because you guys were completely backwards in watercooling. Im a regular at Anand, and at XS. I also have a sticky on newbies guide to watercooling at anand.

anyways, latez and good luck
April 5, 2007 12:59:09 AM

MrMEZ when you say get an impingement block what type of block do you mean? Would you consider the apogeeGTX to be impingent?

For a res is the swiftech micro res any good? Or would a larger 5 1/4 drive bay res be better?

Don't want the gpu block, just yet. If ATI releases the r600 soon, and if the rumours about nvidia having the 8900gtx/gx2 ready to ship as soon as ati drops the ball then I am trading my eVGA in for a gx2. I have about 35 days left on my step up program and I do not want to screw myslef over by removing the stock cooler. If that does not happen in time then I will probably add a gpu block in near future.

As for the coc and hookers, thats the best idea I have heard in a long time. lol

Thanks
April 5, 2007 2:02:41 AM

I would love to get a tec because the temps are very tempting, I am just worried about my mobo, and such I do not want to short anything out with condensation.

Can a tec be added to any cpu waterblock? Because I wouldn't want to go tec right away, but I may want to in the future when i see what kind of temps i am getting from the water and what sort of safe overclock.

So would an apogee GTX work with a tec, or what do you reccomend for blocks?
April 5, 2007 2:54:17 AM

For my second watercooled setup, on a e6600, 680i board and a 8800gtx, I went with the Titan Robela WC case, everything is already inside the case, and has kept my OCd e6600 at 3.2 in the 43c range during normal ops, and keeps it ~50C running orthos for hours.

I paid $189 for the case at Microcenter before Christmas, and it was a breeze to set up compared to the last water attempt.

Radiator is built into the side of the case, 2 120's cooling it, an 80 in front and a 92 in the rear.

Only change I may make when I move to quad core is to up the lines from 1/4 to 3/8 diameter.

VERY quiet during all ops as well.

Robela link
April 5, 2007 3:33:12 AM

Why don't you just go Vapochill?
April 5, 2007 1:46:33 PM

Well the vapochill system that disipates 200W is $943 canadian (I live in Canada). That is way too much.

I am not going to purchase another case, as I just paid 200+ for my stacker 830 2 months ago.

For Tacos if I want to go the tec route I have a couple questions. The only insultaion that needs to be done is around the socket, right? If I understand this correctly, the tec cools the cpu, and the waterblock is cooling the tec, right? So my waterlines are not going to be sub ambient so they would not need to be insulated.

Also, does anybody have any idea of how much heat a QX6700 puts out when really pushed, 3.8Ghz?

Because my tec needs to be able to disippate the cpu's heat. And I am sure they are not 100% efficient so If i got 300W tec it would only be able to dissipate what, about 225...250W? And that would be at the tec's full load, so it would be drawing 300W. How much heat is a tech that is drawing 300W going to be putting out? aND also does a 300W tech draw 300W all the time, or does is power draw change with varying heat loads?

Would a Swiftech Apogee GTX, D5 pump, 120.3 rad, microres, be able to handle that heat and not burn out the tech?

I am new to this so correct anything that I have said that is wrong!!!

Thanks
April 5, 2007 10:41:31 PM

http://www2.asetek.com/default.asp?showPage=startside.a...

Check out that link, the largest one does 200W. Maybe I am misinterpreting the numbers though?

Do you have any thoughts or comments on my TEC theories from the post before? (copied below)

"For Tacos if I want to go the tec route I have a couple questions. The only insultaion that needs to be done is around the socket, right? If I understand this correctly, the tec cools the cpu, and the waterblock is cooling the tec, right? So my waterlines are not going to be sub ambient so they would not need to be insulated.

Also, does anybody have any idea of how much heat a QX6700 puts out when really pushed, 3.8Ghz?

Because my tec needs to be able to disippate the cpu's heat. And I am sure they are not 100% efficient so If i got 300W tec it would only be able to dissipate what, about 225...250W? And that would be at the tec's full load, so it would be drawing 300W. How much heat is a tech that is drawing 300W going to be putting out? aND also does a 300W tech draw 300W all the time, or does is power draw change with varying heat loads?

Would a Swiftech Apogee GTX, D5 pump, 120.3 rad, microres, be able to handle that heat and not burn out the tech?

I am new to this so correct anything that I have said that is wrong!!! "
April 5, 2007 11:52:18 PM

I am getting kinda tired of this. THESE SORTS OF QUESTIONS SHOULD BE ASKED AT: www.xtremesystems.org/forums

Now, I have spent QUITE a while learning about watercooling AND TEC cooling there. Hell, I even asked the same question about a QX6700+ TEC cooling. Let's get to work, shall we?

First off, before you even consider TEC cooling such a high-wattage proc, lets look at the basics of TEC cooling. A TEC needs to be able to cool your proc, and a 237watt (as included in swiftecs offerings) won't cut it. Reason: A decently overclocked quad-core dissipates above 200w of power. Well, you would get really bad temps, wouldn't you?
In order to TEC cool an overclocked Quad-core, you would need the next step up, a 437w TEC.
To do this, you have two options:
A) Build your own.
-Kinda hard, considering there aren't many blocks that can cover the increased surface area. And you DON'T want to leave any part of the TEC uncovered.
B) Purchase one.
-REALLY hard, considering the only one made is the Artic Web. Un problemo: the company that makes this block is having problems, and, last I heard, isn't making any.
So, TEC cooling is outta the question.
Oh yeah, brief sidetrack:
Unless you want to custom build your own Cascade Phase cooler, your outta luck too. Why? Well, I remember around the time that the QX6700 was released, there were ongoing discussions in the Phase Change section of xtremesystems about how an oclked quad-core WILL kill most mass-produced Phasechange units. They simply can't take the heat.

So, your basicaly left with plain ol' good watercooling.
Please view this link which contains a list of some current various waterblock results: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13...
April 6, 2007 2:12:23 AM

I will be sure to become a member or xtreme systems.

Seems to me like cooling this processor is a big job, and I do not think I am ready for using a tec system. I would not consider building a phase change system either, way over my head.

So it looks like I am just going to build a watercooling setup. If in the future I have played around with water enough that I am very comfortable with it, then I would consider adding a tec, if an appropriate one can be had for this processor.

Thanks for everybodys input i really appreciate you taking the time to enlighten me on this "new to me" subject. :D 
April 6, 2007 3:47:35 AM

Take heed: A**hatting will get you a little "vacation" provided by the admins.

And, don't go on the free speak sub-topic either. Easiest way to get you a little "vacation".

Hope to see you there though. ColonelCain there. verns there too.
!