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HD TV and what else?

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Anonymous
October 15, 2004 4:17:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Hi all,

Just a quick quetion for the group. I am in the market for a HD TV. I saw an
ad recently for a 51 HD Widescreen Projection TV for about 1600.00. It says
it includes the HD tuner. Question: are there any drawbacks to buying
projection tv's? Also, since it already has the HD tuner, does that mean I
don't need anthing else to see HD programming (besides being able to pick up
HD stations locally). Antenna? additional receivers?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Guicho.

More about : question

October 16, 2004 1:39:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Guicho" <guichov@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ckp7ov$3i1$1@news1.ucsd.edu...
> Hi all,
>
> Just a quick quetion for the group. I am in the market for a HD TV. I saw
> an ad recently for a 51 HD Widescreen Projection TV for about 1600.00. It
> says it includes the HD tuner. Question: are there any drawbacks to buying
> projection tv's? Also, since it already has the HD tuner, does that mean I
> don't need anthing else to see HD programming (besides being able to pick
> up HD stations locally). Antenna? additional receivers?
>
> Any help will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Guicho.

Guicho,

Let me address the built-in tuner -

If the TV has a built in ATSC tuner, it is almost certainly not the newest
"5th generation" ATSC tuner recently developed by LG/Zenith. Recent news
reports indicate that the new tuner is a huge improvement over all previous
ATSC tuners. The 5th generation unit requires only the simplest indoor
antenna to reliably receive most nearby stations. Earlier generation
receivers are more prone to reception problems, most significantly something
called "multi-path". When using one of the earlier generation receivers,
one must invest more effort (and sometimes money) in antenna selection and
in antenna placement.

If you do purchase the 51" HDTV with its built-in tuner, you may still be
tempted to purchase an external set-top 5th generation tuner when they
become available at the end of this year and in the first quarter of next
year. Also, expect to see HDTVs with the new tuner built in by next year.

Personally, I intend to buy the new receiver as soon as it hits the stores.

Neil
Salem, MA USA
Anonymous
October 16, 2004 1:39:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Thank you for your very informative reply.

-Guicho.

"Neil" <ThisIsNotARealAddress@xyzabc1234.com> wrote in message
news:tsXbd.133323$He1.89732@attbi_s01...
> "Guicho" <guichov@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:ckp7ov$3i1$1@news1.ucsd.edu...
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Just a quick quetion for the group. I am in the market for a HD TV. I saw
>> an ad recently for a 51 HD Widescreen Projection TV for about 1600.00. It
>> says it includes the HD tuner. Question: are there any drawbacks to
>> buying projection tv's? Also, since it already has the HD tuner, does
>> that mean I don't need anthing else to see HD programming (besides being
>> able to pick up HD stations locally). Antenna? additional receivers?
>>
>> Any help will be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Guicho.
>
> Guicho,
>
> Let me address the built-in tuner -
>
> If the TV has a built in ATSC tuner, it is almost certainly not the newest
> "5th generation" ATSC tuner recently developed by LG/Zenith. Recent news
> reports indicate that the new tuner is a huge improvement over all
> previous ATSC tuners. The 5th generation unit requires only the simplest
> indoor antenna to reliably receive most nearby stations. Earlier
> generation receivers are more prone to reception problems, most
> significantly something called "multi-path". When using one of the
> earlier generation receivers, one must invest more effort (and sometimes
> money) in antenna selection and in antenna placement.
>
> If you do purchase the 51" HDTV with its built-in tuner, you may still be
> tempted to purchase an external set-top 5th generation tuner when they
> become available at the end of this year and in the first quarter of next
> year. Also, expect to see HDTVs with the new tuner built in by next year.
>
> Personally, I intend to buy the new receiver as soon as it hits the
> stores.
>
> Neil
> Salem, MA USA
>
Related resources
Anonymous
October 16, 2004 4:58:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Guicho" <guichov@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ckpjva$6gq$1@news1.ucsd.edu>...
> Thank you for your very informative reply.
>
> -Guicho.
>
> "Neil" <ThisIsNotARealAddress@xyzabc1234.com> wrote in message
> news:tsXbd.133323$He1.89732@attbi_s01...
> > "Guicho" <guichov@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:ckp7ov$3i1$1@news1.ucsd.edu...
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> Just a quick quetion for the group. I am in the market for a HD TV. I saw
> >> an ad recently for a 51 HD Widescreen Projection TV for about 1600.00. It
> >> says it includes the HD tuner. Question: are there any drawbacks to
> >> buying projection tv's? Also, since it already has the HD tuner, does
> >> that mean I don't need anthing else to see HD programming (besides being
> >> able to pick up HD stations locally). Antenna? additional receivers?
> >>
> >> Any help will be greatly appreciated.
> >>
> >> Guicho.
> >
> > Guicho,
> >
> > Let me address the built-in tuner -
> >
> > If the TV has a built in ATSC tuner, it is almost certainly not the newest
> > "5th generation" ATSC tuner recently developed by LG/Zenith. Recent news
> > reports indicate that the new tuner is a huge improvement over all
> > previous ATSC tuners. The 5th generation unit requires only the simplest
> > indoor antenna to reliably receive most nearby stations. Earlier
> > generation receivers are more prone to reception problems, most
> > significantly something called "multi-path". When using one of the
> > earlier generation receivers, one must invest more effort (and sometimes
> > money) in antenna selection and in antenna placement.
> >
> > If you do purchase the 51" HDTV with its built-in tuner, you may still be
> > tempted to purchase an external set-top 5th generation tuner when they
> > become available at the end of this year and in the first quarter of next
> > year. Also, expect to see HDTVs with the new tuner built in by next year.
> >
> > Personally, I intend to buy the new receiver as soon as it hits the
> > stores.
> >
> > Neil
> > Salem, MA USA
> >

Then there is the question of where you're going to get the rest of
your HD programming. If you're like most of us, you'll have cable or
sat. In either case, those solutions eliminate the need for the
internal tuner.

As for the drawbacks to projection TV's, like everything else there
are tradeoffs. The main advantage is a decent image at a lower price,
the flip side being other alternatives offer better brightness, space
savings, viewing angle, etc. A google search will turn up lots of
previous threads.
Anonymous
October 19, 2004 4:30:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I thought that HDTV is digital. If the broadcast is digital (ones and
zeros), than you either get it or you don't. How can you have "multi-path"
signals which is very common for analog signals?

> Let me address the built-in tuner -
>
> If the TV has a built in ATSC tuner, it is almost certainly not the newest
> "5th generation" ATSC tuner recently developed by LG/Zenith. Recent news
> reports indicate that the new tuner is a huge improvement over all
previous
> ATSC tuners. The 5th generation unit requires only the simplest indoor
> antenna to reliably receive most nearby stations. Earlier generation
> receivers are more prone to reception problems, most significantly
something
> called "multi-path". When using one of the earlier generation receivers,
> one must invest more effort (and sometimes money) in antenna selection and
> in antenna placement.
>
> If you do purchase the 51" HDTV with its built-in tuner, you may still be
> tempted to purchase an external set-top 5th generation tuner when they
> become available at the end of this year and in the first quarter of next
> year. Also, expect to see HDTVs with the new tuner built in by next year.
>
> Personally, I intend to buy the new receiver as soon as it hits the
stores.
>
> Neil
> Salem, MA USA
>
>
Anonymous
October 19, 2004 4:30:40 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"avproman" <avproman@comcast.net> wrote in message news:p eZcd.205916$wV.75494@attbi_s54...
> I thought that HDTV is digital. If the broadcast is digital (ones and
> zeros), than you either get it or you don't. How can you have "multi-path"
> signals which is very common for analog signals?

HDTV may be digital, but the world is analog.

A radio frequency carrier is modulated with an HDTV signal.
This signal occupies a certain bandwidth of RF spectrum. It's
transmitted thru free space and maybe gets reflected off various
objects and parts of it may arrive at different times at the receiver
where it is re-digitized into your digital HDTV signal.

Don
Anonymous
October 19, 2004 6:55:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I'm 75 miles from the digital stations I receive. There is a mountain
range at a angle to the transmitters. Watching analog is almost
impossible due to the multiple ghost. But the digital stations from
that same area are perfect.

If they are multi paths with digital evidently the receiver only
chooses one signal to reproduce. I have learned that drop-outs are
caused by not enough signal or poor antenna orientation.

hdtvfan

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:30:39 GMT, "avproman" <avproman@comcast.net>
wrote:

>I thought that HDTV is digital. If the broadcast is digital (ones and
>zeros), than you either get it or you don't. How can you have "multi-path"
>signals which is very common for analog signals?
>
>> Let me address the built-in tuner -
>>
>> If the TV has a built in ATSC tuner, it is almost certainly not the newest
>> "5th generation" ATSC tuner recently developed by LG/Zenith. Recent news
>> reports indicate that the new tuner is a huge improvement over all
>previous
>> ATSC tuners. The 5th generation unit requires only the simplest indoor
>> antenna to reliably receive most nearby stations. Earlier generation
>> receivers are more prone to reception problems, most significantly
>something
>> called "multi-path". When using one of the earlier generation receivers,
>> one must invest more effort (and sometimes money) in antenna selection and
>> in antenna placement.
>>
>> If you do purchase the 51" HDTV with its built-in tuner, you may still be
>> tempted to purchase an external set-top 5th generation tuner when they
>> become available at the end of this year and in the first quarter of next
>> year. Also, expect to see HDTVs with the new tuner built in by next year.
>>
>> Personally, I intend to buy the new receiver as soon as it hits the
>stores.
>>
>> Neil
>> Salem, MA USA
>>
>>
>
Anonymous
October 19, 2004 2:58:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller's crackpot crusade glosses over the fact that no country in the
world has succeeded in deploying a national HDTV broadcast infrastructure
using COFDM, and the only countries that are even trying to use COFDM are
doing so strictly in urban areas.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Anonymous
October 19, 2004 3:21:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

trader4@optonline.net (Chet Hayes) wrote in message news:<b81a861b.0410152358.26f3a438@posting.google.com>...
> "Guicho" <guichov@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ckpjva$6gq$1@news1.ucsd.edu>...
> > Thank you for your very informative reply.
> >
> > -Guicho.
> >
> > "Neil" <ThisIsNotARealAddress@xyzabc1234.com> wrote in message
> > news:tsXbd.133323$He1.89732@attbi_s01...
> > > "Guicho" <guichov@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:ckp7ov$3i1$1@news1.ucsd.edu...
> > >> Hi all,
> > >>
> > >> Just a quick quetion for the group. I am in the market for a HD TV. I saw
> > >> an ad recently for a 51 HD Widescreen Projection TV for about 1600.00. It
> > >> says it includes the HD tuner. Question: are there any drawbacks to
> > >> buying projection tv's? Also, since it already has the HD tuner, does
> > >> that mean I don't need anthing else to see HD programming (besides being
> > >> able to pick up HD stations locally). Antenna? additional receivers?
> > >>
> > >> Any help will be greatly appreciated.
> > >>
> > >> Guicho.
> > >
> > > Guicho,
> > >
> > > Let me address the built-in tuner -
> > >
> > > If the TV has a built in ATSC tuner, it is almost certainly not the newest
> > > "5th generation" ATSC tuner recently developed by LG/Zenith. Recent news
> > > reports indicate that the new tuner is a huge improvement over all
> > > previous ATSC tuners. The 5th generation unit requires only the simplest
> > > indoor antenna to reliably receive most nearby stations. Earlier
> > > generation receivers are more prone to reception problems, most
> > > significantly something called "multi-path". When using one of the
> > > earlier generation receivers, one must invest more effort (and sometimes
> > > money) in antenna selection and in antenna placement.
> > > Neil
> > > Salem, MA USA
> > >
>
> Then there is the question of where you're going to get the rest of
> your HD programming. If you're like most of us, you'll have cable or
> sat. In either case, those solutions eliminate the need for the
> internal tuner.
>
Regarding the question of whether to buy a TV with an internal tuner -
Yes, the next generation tuners are reported to be better,
particullarly in areas with multipath signal problems. But if you
don't have a serious problem with ghosts on your analog channels, you
may not have a multipath problem on your digital channels, and the
current generation of tuners may work just fine. I have a 1 year old
Zenith (LG) set with built in digital tuner, connected to the same
roof antenna I have used for several years. I get all my local DTV
stations without any problem. (I have a rotor, but I have found a
"sweet spot" where I usually do not even have to turn the antenna.) I
also have a Dish Network 811 receiver, which gives me several HD
channels off the satellite, along with tuning my local DTV channels.
I think there is a real advantage to having the built in tuner along
with the external box. It gives me a lot more flexibility when
deciding if I want to watch one program while recording another. Or,
I can watch one program off-air on the living room TV, while feeding
the signal from the 811 to another TV in the house where someone else
is watching a different program. I wouldn't spend a huge premium to
get a built in tuner, but if the set you are considering has one,
consider it a worthwile bonus.
Anonymous
October 19, 2004 4:22:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"avproman" <avproman@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:p eZcd.205916$wV.75494@attbi_s54...
> I thought that HDTV is digital. If the broadcast is digital (ones and
> zeros), than you either get it or you don't. How can you have
"multi-path"
> signals which is very common for analog signals?
>
The difference between mulitipath and ghosts:
Ghost we all know about as the second image in an analog picture usually
very faint in the background. As long as the difference in signal strength
between the ghost and the origional is greather than about 10db the digital
tuner has no problem locking to the stronger signal.

Multipath refers to the different paths that the signal can take to get to
your antenna; 1) is the direct path from the antenna transmitter tower to
your antenna. 2) Is the upper atmosphere reflection 3) is the reflection
off differing densitys of air caused by heat on the ground. These differing
paths can cause the signal to add or subtract signal strength, called fade.
The signal strength can change quite rapidly causing the digital tuner to
loose lock. The cure for this is to have the tuner be able to quickly change
it's adaptive equalization. That requires a FAST algorithm and a fast
processor. Fade can usualy be seen at certain times of the day as
occasional dropouts in the picture or pixulation. This can also be caused by
a marginal signal, we are assuming that you already have checked for that.
If your direct signal strength (1 above) is greater my a large margin than
the other paths then you won't have a multipath problem.

The problem with very good signal strength is that you easily get ghosts off
buildings and other structures that can cause you to be marginal (at the 10
db margin between orig and ghost). A drop of a couple of db caused by fade
and you have dropouts. While a weaker signal might not have a problem. A
directional antenna helps here unless you have stations from different
directions.

As you can see in some cases it gets complicated, especially in urban areas.
Too complicated and consumers turn off and the industry suffers. Thus the
push for the ultimate STB tuner.

There have been 4 generations of tuners if you look at the ability to work
in worst case signal conditions. I've seen the difference at my shop between
a 3rd and 4th generation tuner. In my case the difference shows up with two
channels, one can't be received with a third gen tuner (the difference
between ghosts is less than 10 db and the 4th generation can lock with less
than 10 db difference) the second channel has sound dropouts at certain
times of the day with the third gen tuner. I've also seen analog co-channel
interference causing reception problems with the third gen tuner.

> > Let me address the built-in tuner -
> >
> > If the TV has a built in ATSC tuner, it is almost certainly not the
newest
> > "5th generation" ATSC tuner recently developed by LG/Zenith. Recent
news
> > reports indicate that the new tuner is a huge improvement over all
> previous
> > ATSC tuners. The 5th generation unit requires only the simplest indoor
> > antenna to reliably receive most nearby stations. Earlier generation
> > receivers are more prone to reception problems, most significantly
> something
> > called "multi-path". When using one of the earlier generation
receivers,
> > one must invest more effort (and sometimes money) in antenna selection
and
> > in antenna placement.
> >
> > If you do purchase the 51" HDTV with its built-in tuner, you may still
be
> > tempted to purchase an external set-top 5th generation tuner when they
> > become available at the end of this year and in the first quarter of
next
> > year. Also, expect to see HDTVs with the new tuner built in by next
year.
> >
> > Personally, I intend to buy the new receiver as soon as it hits the
> stores.
> >
Anonymous
October 19, 2004 9:26:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jeff Rigby wrote:
> "avproman" <avproman@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:p eZcd.205916$wV.75494@attbi_s54...
>
>>I thought that HDTV is digital. If the broadcast is digital (ones and
>>zeros), than you either get it or you don't. How can you have
>
> "multi-path"
>
>>signals which is very common for analog signals?
>>
>
> The difference between mulitipath and ghosts:
> Ghost we all know about as the second image in an analog picture usually
> very faint in the background. As long as the difference in signal strength
> between the ghost and the origional is greather than about 10db the digital
> tuner has no problem locking to the stronger signal.
>
> Multipath refers to the different paths that the signal can take to get to
> your antenna; 1) is the direct path from the antenna transmitter tower to
> your antenna. 2) Is the upper atmosphere reflection 3) is the reflection
> off differing densitys of air caused by heat on the ground. These differing
> paths can cause the signal to add or subtract signal strength, called fade.
> The signal strength can change quite rapidly causing the digital tuner to
> loose lock. The cure for this is to have the tuner be able to quickly change
> it's adaptive equalization. That requires a FAST algorithm and a fast
> processor. Fade can usualy be seen at certain times of the day as
> occasional dropouts in the picture or pixulation. This can also be caused by
> a marginal signal, we are assuming that you already have checked for that.
> If your direct signal strength (1 above) is greater my a large margin than
> the other paths then you won't have a multipath problem.
>
> The problem with very good signal strength is that you easily get ghosts off
> buildings and other structures that can cause you to be marginal (at the 10
> db margin between orig and ghost). A drop of a couple of db caused by fade
> and you have dropouts. While a weaker signal might not have a problem. A
> directional antenna helps here unless you have stations from different
> directions.
>
> As you can see in some cases it gets complicated, especially in urban areas.
> Too complicated and consumers turn off and the industry suffers. Thus the
> push for the ultimate STB tuner.

The ultimate tuner, that is one that works, is the 5th gen however it is
only minimally acceptable. We should and could have had ultimate
receivers in 1999. They existed then in the form of COFDM receivers.
COFDM receivers are being used in most of the rest of the world and cost
as little as $45. One reason for this is that IP royalty cost for COFDM
is as little as $5 while 8-VSB (US) receivers have $40 plus IP royalty
cost. The IP cost for the DVB-T COFDM modulation alone is around $.60
while the 8-VSB modulation is more than $6.

That is what we pay for our current political system based on blatant
bribery and corruption.
>
> There have been 4 generations of tuners if you look at the ability to work
> in worst case signal conditions. I've seen the difference at my shop between
> a 3rd and 4th generation tuner. In my case the difference shows up with two
> channels, one can't be received with a third gen tuner (the difference
> between ghosts is less than 10 db and the 4th generation can lock with less
> than 10 db difference) the second channel has sound dropouts at certain
> times of the day with the third gen tuner. I've also seen analog co-channel
> interference causing reception problems with the third gen tuner.
>
>
>>>Let me address the built-in tuner -
>>>
>>>If the TV has a built in ATSC tuner, it is almost certainly not the
>
> newest
>
>>>"5th generation" ATSC tuner recently developed by LG/Zenith. Recent
>
> news
>
>>>reports indicate that the new tuner is a huge improvement over all
>>
>>previous
>>
>>>ATSC tuners. The 5th generation unit requires only the simplest indoor
>>>antenna to reliably receive most nearby stations. Earlier generation
>>>receivers are more prone to reception problems, most significantly
>>
>>something
>>
>>>called "multi-path". When using one of the earlier generation
>
> receivers,
>
>>>one must invest more effort (and sometimes money) in antenna selection
>
> and
>
>>>in antenna placement.
>>>
>>>If you do purchase the 51" HDTV with its built-in tuner, you may still
>
> be
>
>>>tempted to purchase an external set-top 5th generation tuner when they
>>>become available at the end of this year and in the first quarter of
>
> next
>
>>>year. Also, expect to see HDTVs with the new tuner built in by next
>
> year.
>
>>>Personally, I intend to buy the new receiver as soon as it hits the
>>
>>stores.
>>
>
>
>
Anonymous
October 19, 2004 10:12:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Mark Crispin wrote:
> Bob Miller's crackpot crusade glosses over the fact that no country in
> the world has succeeded in deploying a national HDTV broadcast
> infrastructure using COFDM, and the only countries that are even trying
> to use COFDM are doing so strictly in urban areas.
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
> Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
> Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Most countries using COFDM are deploying national systems. Are they all
up and running with full coverage? No. Will they be? Yes.

Australia and Japan are the only countries that have mandated a national
HDTV system. The US system is an SD/HD system with no requirement that
any broadcasters do any HDTV. France is about to begin broadcasting HDTV.

It is simply not true that COFDM is being deployed in only urban area.
All countries deploying COFDM intend for national ubiquitous coverage.

In some countries deploying COFDM, some with HD and some with SD, the
penetration rate is far higher than in the US. It is disengenious to
suggest that since the US had deployed nationally that somehow we are
ahead. The US consumer has virtually rejected the US the OTA 8-VSB
system deployed in the US. Even if you could receive a digital signal in
every home in the US it would not matter if no one buys receives.

Viola!! Mandate!! of course then you still have to get consumers to hook
up an antenna which they could refuse to do. Howq many satellite
receivers that include 8-VSB tuners have been attached to antennas? The
5th gen receiers will change that IMO but that does not negate the last
five years of waste, delay and turn off that the crippled 8-VSB
modulation has inflicted on the US.
Anonymous
October 19, 2004 11:17:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"avproman" <avproman@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:p eZcd.205916$wV.75494@attbi_s54...
>I thought that HDTV is digital. If the broadcast is digital (ones and
> zeros), than you either get it or you don't. How can you have
> "multi-path"
> signals which is very common for analog signals?


when serious multipath hits NTSC TV, you see ghosts
when serious multipath hits ATSC TV, depending on the ability of the
receiver to null out the reflections and find the real signal, you may get
no reception

all radio/TV signals are "analog" -- even ones that code a digital stream in
their modulation.

ATSC is carried by an analog modulation design called 8-vestigular
sideband - 8-vsb was originally designed to allow HD stations to have the
same range as the old AM/Phase modulated NTSC (only the sound is FM). ATSC
was also (under ideal conditions) capable of being demodulated by simple
analog circuitry without the need for a then-expensive DSP.

Turns out that 8-VSB in real life needs sophisticated DSP-based processing
to null out reflections and have reliable reception in multipath prone areas
like urban areas.

Oh well, good thing thet're cheap now.
!