Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Licensed DTV stations as of Oct 24th 2004

Last response: in Home Theatre
Share
Anonymous
October 27, 2004 7:51:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

http://www.tvtechnology.com/dlrf/one.php?id=619

Mario, the Masked engineer from TVTechnology has an article...
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Masked-Engineer/An...

In reference to that article K.B. said...
"That Mr. Masked is just a big know-it-all who just happens to be right
all the time."

Jeff Rife said...
....except when he is really, really wrong, like when he says about digital
TV in the US: "Only about 600 stations are licensed to transmit it."

In defense of Mario I (Bob Miller) said that Mario was right and usually
is. Specifically when he said that around 600 DTV stations are
"licensed" to transmit DTV.
>
Jeff Rife responded...

"Oh, great. Not only is Bob spewing stupidity, but now he's multiposting
to do it."

He went on to say that I did not have any idea how the FCC works. I am
glad to be in the company of Mario in Jeff Rife's mind. The most recent
data from the FCC follows.

Date posted: 2004-10-26
DTV Station Status per FCC CDBS - Oct. 24, 2004

LICENSED (LIC): 625 (+2)

CONSTRUCTION PERMIT:( CP) 765 (-7)

CP Modification (CP MOD) 358 (+7)

STA (All variations) 1,002 (-3)

STA (Modifications) 111 (+2)

APPLICATIONS (minus rule making) 192 (+13)

Rule-making - Digital channel changes

PENDING APPLICATIONS 28 (-1)

GRANTS 146 (+1)

DISMISSED 0 (-0-)

(Change from Oct. 10, 2004 listing)

Note: The total will be greater than the number of DTV stations as some
stations have licenses, construction permits and applications on file.
Some stations also have license, construction permits or applications
for back facilities (auxiliary broadcast). Subtracting the STA
Modification number from the number in STA (All variations) will give a
more accurate indication of the number of DTV stations operating under STA.

A spreadsheet showing all current DTV entries in the FCC CDBS TV
engineering database files may be downloaded from
www.xmtr.com/fcc/dtvdb.zip. All CDBS database files used for the
spreadsheets carry a date of Oct. 24, 2004. The entire TV engineering
database (large file - over 2MB) extracted from the CDBS is available
from www.xmtr.com/fcc/tvdb.zip. Starting with this week's spreadsheets,
I've added a new column from the CDBS to the spreadsheet - "fac_zone"
was inserted between "tv_dom_status" and "border_code."
Anonymous
October 29, 2004 4:48:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller (robmx@earthlink.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> Date posted: 2004-10-26
> DTV Station Status per FCC CDBS - Oct. 24, 2004
>
> LICENSED (LIC): 625 (+2)
>
> CONSTRUCTION PERMIT:( CP) 765 (-7)
>
> CP Modification (CP MOD) 358 (+7)
>
> STA (All variations) 1,002 (-3)

So, let's see, that's 625 + 1002 *licensed* DTV stations, with 1002 of them
not doing exactly what they expect to end up doing.

Thanks for providing the numbers to show how wrong Mario was.

--
Jeff Rife | "You keep using that word. I do not think it
SPAM bait: | means what you think it means."
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov |
spam@ftc.gov | -- Inigo Montoya, "The Princess Bride"
Anonymous
October 29, 2004 7:34:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:

>
> In defense of Mario I (Bob Miller) said that Mario was right and usually
> is. Specifically when he said that around 600 DTV stations are
> "licensed" to transmit DTV.


You are right regarding your list; but the impression given in Mario's
report is that there are only 600 stations on the air. Obviously, Mario
is trying to minimize the number of DTV stations to make a point about
analog TV. If the point could have been made including STA's and the
others, maybe the essay would have been better; or at least more
legitimate. According to the NAB on air list and the FCC on air lists
there are about 1300 stations currently broadcasting digital TV;
although, neither list is 100% accurate. I have found stations in my
area(s) that there are a few stations actually on the air which are not
listed, and stations listed but not on the air; typically type I and II
type errors. The advantage of the NAB on air list is the network
affiliation indication; it might be buried some where in the CDBS files
also, but so far I haven't found it.
Anonymous
October 29, 2004 9:58:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

numeric wrote:
>
>
> Bob Miller wrote:
>
>>
>> In defense of Mario I (Bob Miller) said that Mario was right and
>> usually is. Specifically when he said that around 600 DTV stations are
>> "licensed" to transmit DTV.
>
>
>
> You are right regarding your list; but the impression given in Mario's
> report is that there are only 600 stations on the air. Obviously, Mario
> is trying to minimize the number of DTV stations to make a point about
> analog TV. If the point could have been made including STA's and the
> others, maybe the essay would have been better; or at least more
> legitimate. According to the NAB on air list and the FCC on air lists
> there are about 1300 stations currently broadcasting digital TV;
> although, neither list is 100% accurate. I have found stations in my
> area(s) that there are a few stations actually on the air which are not
> listed, and stations listed but not on the air; typically type I and II
> type errors. The advantage of the NAB on air list is the network
> affiliation indication; it might be buried some where in the CDBS files
> also, but so far I haven't found it.
>
Most of those who read Mario's report know how many stations are on the
air generally both licensed and with STA's.

Mario was writing to these knowledgeable people. He meant just what he
said and was understood by most readers to mean just what he said. That
there was only about 600 stations licensed so far. He was NOT trying to
minimize the number of stations that were putting out a signal under STA's.

Obviously you think he is even less intelligent that Jeff Rife does. You
also think that he was trying to pull one over on his knowledgeable readers.

I don't. If he was they wouldn't read him for long.
Anonymous
October 29, 2004 10:03:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jeff Rife wrote:
> Bob Miller (robmx@earthlink.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>
>>Date posted: 2004-10-26
>>DTV Station Status per FCC CDBS - Oct. 24, 2004
>>
>>LICENSED (LIC): 625 (+2)
>>
>>CONSTRUCTION PERMIT:( CP) 765 (-7)
>>
>>CP Modification (CP MOD) 358 (+7)
>>
>>STA (All variations) 1,002 (-3)
>
>
> So, let's see, that's 625 + 1002 *licensed* DTV stations, with 1002 of them
> not doing exactly what they expect to end up doing.
>
> Thanks for providing the numbers to show how wrong Mario was.
>

Again, Mario was not wrong. He was very specific and meant just what he
said.

As he said there are around 600 licensed DTV stations. That is what he
said, all he said and that is all he meant to say.

You invent other meanings and then suggest he is wrong. You suggest that
he meant that there were only 600 stations on the air in some fashion.
He did not say that and he did not mean that.

How wrong can you be?

Bob Miller
Anonymous
October 29, 2004 5:30:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller (robmx@earthlink.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> Again, Mario was not wrong. He was very specific and meant just what he
> said.
>
> As he said there are around 600 licensed DTV stations. That is what he
> said, all he said and that is all he meant to say.

Stations can't broadcast with *just* an STA. They need to be licensed
first. The STA is an acknowledgement by the FCC that the station is not
following all the rules and restrictions set forth by the license they were
granted, but that it is OK.

STAs are given for things like not broadcasting at the correct power, even
if you are only reduced by 100kW out of a total of 5000kW.

> As he said there are around 600 licensed DTV stations.

....which is completely wrong.

> That is what he
> said, all he said and that is all he meant to say.

Then, he was flat-out wrong.

> You invent other meanings and then suggest he is wrong. You suggest that
> he meant that there were only 600 stations on the air in some fashion.

Why, then, would he leave out the over 1000 licensed stations that are
broadcasting with STAs? The only logical conclusion is that he wanted to
suggest that far fewer stations were actually on the air and receivable.

> How wrong can you be?

How little English do you understand?

--
Jeff Rife | "Why the hell did you stuff yourself like that?"
SPAM bait: | "Hey, Lowell threw down the gauntlet...I just
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov | poured gravy on it and ate it."
spam@ftc.gov | -- Joe and Brian Hackett, "Wings"
Anonymous
October 29, 2004 7:18:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jeff Rife wrote:

>
>>As he said there are around 600 licensed DTV stations.
>
>
> ...which is completely wrong.

No, it is correct.

>
>
>> That is what he
>>said, all he said and that is all he meant to say.
>
>
> Then, he was flat-out wrong.

No, it was correct.

>
>
>>You invent other meanings and then suggest he is wrong. You suggest that
>>he meant that there were only 600 stations on the air in some fashion.
>
>
> Why, then, would he leave out the over 1000 licensed stations that are
> broadcasting with STAs? The only logical conclusion is that he wanted to
> suggest that far fewer stations were actually on the air and receivable.
>
>


There are only about 600 licensed stations on the air.
Over 1000 more are operating on a PRE-LICENSE Special
Temporary Authorization.


>Stations can't broadcast with *just* an STA. They need to be licensed
>first. The STA is an acknowledgement by the FCC that the station is >not
>following all the rules and restrictions set forth by the license they
>were
>granted, but that it is OK.

>STAs are given for things like not broadcasting at the correct power,
>even
>if you are only reduced by 100kW out of a total of 5000kW.

That is simply incorrect for DTV. Stations are "licensed"
only AFTER they are operating on the air at their originally
allocated power level at the authorized height and tower
location. The may, however, be at a lower power than
they have requested and are authorized for at a "maximized"
level, which is higher that what the FCC originally assigned them.

If a DTV station goes on the air at less than authorized
power and antenna height or a wrong logaction, based on
an STA, they are not yet "licensed".

All this may be and probably is different from how it
worked back when all stations were analog.

Doug McDonald
Anonymous
October 29, 2004 10:04:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Doug McDonald (mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> That is simply incorrect for DTV. Stations are "licensed"
> only AFTER they are operating on the air at their originally
> allocated power level at the authorized height and tower
> location.

It is correct that the FCC database never says "LIC" as the status until
a station is to this point. I don't dispute that.

But, a station (digital *or* analog) *still* must actually be "licensed"
by the FCC before *any* transmissions occur. The status in the FCC
database might be "LIC", "STA", or even "CP" (in very rare cases...not
enough to care), but the station has a license.

> If a DTV station goes on the air at less than authorized
> power and antenna height or a wrong logaction, based on
> an STA, they are not yet "licensed".

They have filed the same papers and had them accepted as if they are licensed.
That's the only way an STA can be granted. STA is for unexpected things
that keep a station from being able to meet the specs that they have on their
already-granted license application.

I'll admit that with digital TV, they often file the STA request along with
the application, but the FCC still has to approve one before the other
happens.

An example:
A station asks for licensing on channel 25 but STA to broadcast on channel
51. If channel 25 would not work (co-channel interference, etc.) in the
long run, then the STA wouldn't be approved, either, because the license
has not been approved. You have to tell the FCC what you intend to do
permanently before they let you do something temporary. Otherwise, an
STA could easily be legally argued into permanent status--at least for
some parts--even if the FCC would likely have not granted a license for
those permanent specs.

> If a DTV station goes on the air at less than authorized
> power and antenna height or a wrong logaction, based on
> an STA, they are not yet "licensed".

If they are broadcasting at the "wrong" location, then they *right*
location *is* licensed, because the station can go to it at *any* time
before the STA expires. This is true for any other "wrong" thing. The
"right" thing is in the database as part of their license.

--
Jeff Rife | "What kind of universe is this where a man can't
SPAM bait: | love his fake wife's mother's best friend?"
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov |
spam@ftc.gov | -- Ned Dorsey, "Ned and Stacey"
Anonymous
October 30, 2004 1:36:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jeff Rife wrote:
> Bob Miller (robmx@earthlink.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>
>>Again, Mario was not wrong. He was very specific and meant just what he
>>said.
>>
>>As he said there are around 600 licensed DTV stations. That is what he
>>said, all he said and that is all he meant to say.
>
>
> Stations can't broadcast with *just* an STA. They need to be licensed
> first. The STA is an acknowledgement by the FCC that the station is not
> following all the rules and restrictions set forth by the license they were
> granted, but that it is OK.

Wrong again Mr. Rife. You do not have to have a license to have an STA.
I can get and STA with no license of any kind. Stations that are
broadcasting with an STA do not have a license. They have been allocated
a temporary DTV channel that they could be licensed for but they do not
have a license. When they are licensed they then have a license.
>
> STAs are given for things like not broadcasting at the correct power, even
> if you are only reduced by 100kW out of a total of 5000kW.

STAs are given for a lot of reasons.
>
>
>>As he said there are around 600 licensed DTV stations.
>
>
> ...which is completely wrong.

Not at all there are around 600 licensed stations. That is the fact.
Just saying it is wrong does not make it so.
>
>
>> That is what he
>>said, all he said and that is all he meant to say.
>
>
> Then, he was flat-out wrong.

In what way is he wrong? The FCC has only licensed 625 stations for DTV
service. He made a statement to that affect to make the point that at
this late date there are only around 600 stations licensed. It is pretty
simple. Most of the people who read his articles understand what he was
saying. They also know that there are a lot of STAs. They know and I
know what he meant. Why do you demand that he meant something else?
>
>
>>You invent other meanings and then suggest he is wrong. You suggest that
>>he meant that there were only 600 stations on the air in some fashion.
>
>
> Why, then, would he leave out the over 1000 licensed stations that are
> broadcasting with STAs? The only logical conclusion is that he wanted to
> suggest that far fewer stations were actually on the air and receivable.

It is not obvious. It is obvious to me that he meant to say that there
were only around 600 stations licensed. He knows his audience and it is
imbecilic to think he was trying to hood-wink them by suggesting that
there were no other signals being broadcast via STAs.
>
>
>>How wrong can you be?
>
>
> How little English do you understand?

I think I understand it a bit more than you do. You seem to want to deny
a persons right to say something specific without being misinterpreted
to mean something you think he really was saying.

Bob Miller
>
Anonymous
October 30, 2004 1:45:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Doug McDonald wrote:
> Jeff Rife wrote:
>
>>
>>> As he said there are around 600 licensed DTV stations.
>>
>>
>>
>> ...which is completely wrong.
>
>
> No, it is correct.
>
>>
>>
>>> That is what he
>>> said, all he said and that is all he meant to say.
>>
>>
>>
>> Then, he was flat-out wrong.
>
>
> No, it was correct.
>
>>
>>
>>> You invent other meanings and then suggest he is wrong. You suggest
>>> that he meant that there were only 600 stations on the air in some
>>> fashion.
>>
>>
>>
>> Why, then, would he leave out the over 1000 licensed stations that are
>> broadcasting with STAs? The only logical conclusion is that he wanted to
>> suggest that far fewer stations were actually on the air and receivable.
>>
>>
>
>
> There are only about 600 licensed stations on the air.
> Over 1000 more are operating on a PRE-LICENSE Special
> Temporary Authorization.
>
>
> >Stations can't broadcast with *just* an STA. They need to be licensed
> >first. The STA is an acknowledgement by the FCC that the station is >not
> >following all the rules and restrictions set forth by the license they
> >were
> >granted, but that it is OK.
>
> >STAs are given for things like not broadcasting at the correct power,
> >even
> >if you are only reduced by 100kW out of a total of 5000kW.
>
> That is simply incorrect for DTV. Stations are "licensed"
> only AFTER they are operating on the air at their originally
> allocated power level at the authorized height and tower
> location. The may, however, be at a lower power than
> they have requested and are authorized for at a "maximized"
> level, which is higher that what the FCC originally assigned them.
>
> If a DTV station goes on the air at less than authorized
> power and antenna height or a wrong logaction, based on
> an STA, they are not yet "licensed".
>
> All this may be and probably is different from how it
> worked back when all stations were analog.
>
> Doug McDonald

It is unusual to find myself being in agreement with Doug.

A licensed analog full power station because they already are licensed
for analog were allocated a new DTV piece of spectrum for digital. They
were not allocated a new license. They have to apply for that. When they
have jumped through all the hoops the FCC demands of them they are then
"licensed" to operate that DTV station. Later they will have to give
back either the spectrum occupied by the digital or analog station and
surrender their analog license.

We own spectrum that we bought in an auction. We are not licensed to
broadcast on that spectrum as of yet. In the meantime we have applied
for an STA and an experimental licenses on spectrum that we do not own,
that no one owns and on other spectrum owned but as of yet not licensed
by others. In both cases the FCC granted our STA and experimental
authorities.

Just about anybody can get an STA in a short period of time to do just
about anything.

Bob Miller
Anonymous
October 30, 2004 8:52:40 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jeff Rife wrote:
> Doug McDonald (mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>
>>That is simply incorrect for DTV. Stations are "licensed"
>>only AFTER they are operating on the air at their originally
>>allocated power level at the authorized height and tower
>>location.
>
>
> It is correct that the FCC database never says "LIC" as the status until
> a station is to this point. I don't dispute that.
>
> But, a station (digital *or* analog) *still* must actually be "licensed"
> by the FCC before *any* transmissions occur. The status in the FCC
> database might be "LIC", "STA", or even "CP" (in very rare cases...not
> enough to care), but the station has a license.

Anyone can request an STA from the FCC. You do not have to have a
license of any kind. The FCC evaluates the request as to interference
and denies or allows. A "transmission" can then take place with the STA.
That is the document that allows the transmission, not a license.
>
>
>>If a DTV station goes on the air at less than authorized
>>power and antenna height or a wrong logaction, based on
>>an STA, they are not yet "licensed".
>
>
> They have filed the same papers and had them accepted as if they are licensed.
> That's the only way an STA can be granted.

Not true. An STA can be granted in a few days. The request for an STA is
almost informal.
STA is for unexpected things
> that keep a station from being able to meet the specs that they have on their
> already-granted license application.
>
> I'll admit that with digital TV, they often file the STA request along with
> the application, but the FCC still has to approve one before the other
> happens.

No they don't they can grant an STA without regard to any license, non
license or application. There is no relationship needed between an STA
and a license.
>
> An example:
> A station asks for licensing on channel 25 but STA to broadcast on channel
> 51. If channel 25 would not work (co-channel interference, etc.) in the
> long run, then the STA wouldn't be approved, either, because the license
> has not been approved. You have to tell the FCC what you intend to do
> permanently before they let you do something temporary.

Otherwise, an
> STA could easily be legally argued into permanent status--at least for
> some parts--even if the FCC would likely have not granted a license for
> those permanent specs.
>
>
>>If a DTV station goes on the air at less than authorized
>>power and antenna height or a wrong logaction, based on
>>an STA, they are not yet "licensed".
>
>
> If they are broadcasting at the "wrong" location, then they *right*
> location *is* licensed, because the station can go to it at *any* time
> before the STA expires. This is true for any other "wrong" thing. The
> "right" thing is in the database as part of their license.
>

But you do not need a license to have an STA. If the station has a
license it has a license. If they have an STA at another location they
have an STA at another location. They are mutually exclusive.

Bob Miller
!