AMD screws consumers by embracing DRM

[Wombat2]

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/04/12/142218.shtml

http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/03/28/14OPcurve_1.html

DRM primer: http://defectivebydesign.org/about

The days of the general purpose computer are numbered. In the not too distant future you will be required to swipe your credit card to log into your machine 8O

 

[corvetteguy]

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/04/12/142218.shtml

Intel sure to follow

DRM primer: http://defectivebydesign.org/about

so you should add intel to your title, as in "AMD and Intel are screwing the customer by embracing DRM"

 

[Wombat2]

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/04/12/142218.shtml

Intel sure to follow

DRM primer: http://defectivebydesign.org/about

so you should add intel to your title, as in "AMD and Intel are screwing the customer by embracing DRM"

Nope ... Only AMD indicated their plans to do this so far.

 

[weskurtz81]

Are you sure? A quick search in google might turn up different results. Maybe I am off base though and HOW the two are supporting DRM. I did the google search, so you guys can also.

wes

 

[xaat_kil]

Wiki says:"The Trusted Computing Group (TCG) is an alliance of Microsoft, Intel, IBM, HP and AMD which promotes a standard for a ‘more secure’ (i.e. under their control) PC. Their definition of security is controversial; machines built according to their specification will be more trustworthy from the point of view of software vendors and the content industry, but will be less trustworthy from the point of view of their owners. In effect, the TCG specification will transfer the ultimate control of your PC from you to whoever wrote the software it happens to be running."
Intel calls it a "trusted platform module" and yes it is in hardware already.
Example: Intel® Desktop Board D915GMH
Trusted Platform Module (TPM)

I don't see VIA mentioned. Hmm...new VIA slogan..."we may be slow, but we aren't crippled"

 

[HotFoot]

Does this apply to the Radeon 1250 in the 690G chipset, or to products not yet released?

I ask because I've had a few issues using the DVI out while connected to the HDMI port of my LCD TV. I think there is some kind of handshake issue going on. I can't output in native 1360x768 resolution, and there are strange issues with the TV not re-acquiring video signal after the TV has been turned off and on again. I don't get any of these issues using the analogue (VGA) connection.

What kind of interference do we expect in our day-to-day computing? I can see this being a hassle for the uninformed who think that playing a high-def movie on their computer should be a simple matter of putting it in and hitting play, but for those of us who know what we're doing, what is the degradation in usability? I read a lot about how Vista screwed up 3D sound effects (though I've only ever used stereo connection to my PC).

 

[utaka95]

Never heard of "Trusted Computing"? WINTEL
Intel is way ahead of AMD in limiting your "rights" on your PC. I'm getting sick of the AMD hate around here - I'm sorry you guys were stuck with Pentium 4's when I had an early 939, but that's no reason to spread hate, just 'cuz you got stuck with a dog.

 

[HotFoot]

"In effect, the TCG specification will transfer the ultimate control of your PC from you to whoever wrote the software it happens to be running."

This sounds to me like "chalk one up for open-source software".

 

[Wombat2]

What kind of interference do we expect in our day-to-day computing?

The infoworld article states this will be implemented in "upcoming" GPUs.

The iterference is going to come to the fore as a slow insidious loss of hardware functionality available to you the owner of the PC. Apps that used this functionality before are going to be impossible to create in future.

Its a slow-raise-the-water-temperature to boil the frog scenario.

 

[Wombat2]

Never heard of "Trusted Computing"? WINTEL
Intel is way ahead of AMD in limiting your "rights" on your PC. I'm getting sick of the AMD hate around here - I'm sorry you guys were stuck with Pentium 4's when I had an early 939, but that's no reason to spread hate, just 'cuz you got stuck with a dog.

I hate to pop your fanboi bubble but this is a first ... a new type of hardware DRM restriction in GPUs (introducted by AMD, not Intel or nvidia ...).

While all the hardware manufactures will undoubtedly eventually get into bed with the content producers, AMD is breaking new ground here.

Futhermore, "trusted" computing (now there is a misnomer!) is a DUAL use technology. You can (theoreticaly) use a TPM chip to secure your own personal data. Of course this is not its main purpose, its main purpose is to ensure a movie/song/game sold to you plays on ONLY your PC.

This crap that AMDTI is planning to pull is NOT a dual use technology. There is NO potential benefit to you ... just a stripping away of your rights to use your own hardware that you paid for.

 

[HotFoot]

Do you imagine that this GPU trusted-computing junk is going to interfere with OpenGL?

While I don't disagree that the RIAA and the like are crossing a line in terms of getting the way operating systems and even hardware are built, I wonder how far the hardware manufacturers will go. Once their product is rendered undesirable to the consumer, well... that just opens the door to a new party to come in with a product embracing open standards based around what the consumer actually wants. In the end, it's the consumer's money that's making the wheel go 'round.

Do you ever start to feel guilty when you actually buy/rent a movie because a portion of that money is going to the RIAA/MPAA or whatever group to support their shady lobbying?

 

[Wombat2]

"In effect, the TCG specification will transfer the ultimate control of your PC from you to whoever wrote the software it happens to be running."

This sounds to me like "chalk one up for open-source software".

Open source software wont be able to access the GPUs frame buffer either.

 

[xaat_kil]

Wiki says of this:"High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) is a form of Digital Rights Management (DRM) developed by Intel Corporation to control digital audio and video content as it travels across Digital Visual Interface (DVI) or High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) connections. The specification is proprietary, and creating an implementation of HDCP requires a license."
It may be in your monitor as I don't think an old 9250 would have the tech. I think that they want it in everything, you computer, monitor, and OS. Could be why Creative is having such a hard time with drivers for Vista: they are forced to make audio sound like crap on protected content.

 

[Wombat2]

Do you imagine that this GPU trusted-computing junk is going to interfere with OpenGL?

While I don't disagree that the RIAA and the like are crossing a line in terms of getting the way operating systems and even hardware are built, I wonder how far the hardware manufacturers will go. Once their product is rendered undesirable to the consumer, well... that just opens the door to a new party to come in with a product embracing open standards based around what the consumer actually wants. In the end, it's the consumer's money that's making the wheel go 'round.

Do you ever start to feel guilty when you actually buy/rent a movie because a portion of that money is going to the RIAA/MPAA or whatever group to support their shady lobbying?

Well there are only two real consumer CPU manufacturers and two real consumer GPU manufacturers. Thats a very small list to lean on by the RIAA/MAFIAA.

A consumer hardware boycott will be next to impossible. The RIAA/MAFIAA (Sony, ...) can use a strategy like: "If you want to create new markets for your hardware in the living room you must cripple your hardware with DRM". Its already happening in front of our eyes.

 

[Wombat2]

Could be why Creative is having such a hard time with drivers for Vista: they are forced to make audio sound like crap on protected content.

Same thing with the nvidia 8800 driver fisaco in Vista ... caused by DRM. The MAFIAA have made it clear they will disable all GPUs that use HDCP if their drivers leak content.

 

[HotFoot]

Well, the TV isn't that old... about 6 months. I had it running on a DVI-HDMI connection from a 6600GT before, but that GPU doesn't have any HDCP chips in it AFAIK.

My understanding of the requirement for HDCP compatibility in the TV is for high-definition playback only (regulated through Vista). What I'm doing shouldn't envoke those operating modes. I'm running Ubuntu in the first place.

As for the "chalk one up for open-source", I mean that I don't believe the open-source software community is in on this DRM crap. If more people move over to Linux, then media companies aren't going to be able to force their control on computer users since the market could shift to people buying hardware that functions for Linux (and them). Frankly, I'd be happy to never play blu-ray or hd-dvd in my life so long as I can do whatever else I want on my HTPC.

I hope that the same thing happens to blu-ray/hd-dvd as did sacd/dvd-a. I mean that downloaded content (legit or otherwise) should take over the media distribution scene. I would love to be able to subscribe to a high-definition media service that sets me up with downloads for my entertainment consumption. Now we're testing out DRM-free music for downloads... I hope this works well because the logical extension is TV and movies. There is a huge market potential for this business, and the cost savings of moving to internet distribution are huge (especially if they can manage to do it with torrent-style downloads where users share the expense of serving the files). I see the industry being disabled by their fight for DRM, and I hope that EMI does well with their experiment.

 

[chunkymonster]

Never heard of "Trusted Computing"? WINTEL
Intel is way ahead of AMD in limiting your "rights" on your PC. I'm getting sick of the AMD hate around here - I'm sorry you guys were stuck with Pentium 4's when I had an early 939, but that's no reason to spread hate, just 'cuz you got stuck with a dog.

AND...

Wiki says of this:"High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) is a form of Digital Rights Management (DRM) developed by Intel Corporation to control digital audio and video content as it travels across Digital Visual Interface (DVI) or High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) connections. The specification is proprietary, and creating an implementation of HDCP requires a license."

Adopting some DRM standards and hard coding them into hardware was inevitable given the furor from the RIAA, Sony, Toshiba, etc. and, ultimately had to become a business decision to ensure that either AMD and Intel could remain competitive in the media/embedded market.

Fact is Intel fans, whether you like it or not, Intel has been on board with implementing DRM from back when the debate began a few years ago. And in case you are in denial or don't remember, there were a number of articles about Intel including DRM into the PentiumD and 945 chipset. But, because of all the flack and noise as a result of that announcement, Intel did not move forward with it.

 

[CompTIA_Rep]

Well if DRM takes over my cables and TV, which it will, I will move over to Linux. I see no reason to now except... i play games.

 

[korsen]

i'll probably start buying movies when i move out in 6 months, but if they're going to tighten the DRM noose around our necks, i'm going to only get my movies through warez cause this DRM stuff is bullshit. I'd have to start buying nonDRM hardware if this keeps up. Why do these companies think that enforcing DRM and the like are going to keep people from going to warez?? It's only pushing people more into that direction.

 

[Wombat2]

Well if DRM takes over my cables and TV, which it will, I will move over to Linux. I see no reason to now except... i play games.

You still arnt getting it. This is DRMing / crippling of hardware:
It doesnt matter what OS/software you use.
It doesnt matter if you never buy any DRMed media ... your hardware still gets crippled anyway.

PS: Guess who pays for the additional expense of incorporating this into the hardware? You.

 

[HotFoot]

So basically, you're saying if we want a system that works, we should get the hardware now and just pirate the content we want because at least that will work?

Is it possible to just pay for the rights to a movie without buying a specific format of that movie? I mean, can I go and get some sort of receipt that signifies that I have the right to own a certain content in whatever format I want? Then I can work out how I'm going to obtain that content myself. Honestly I just want to legitimise what is the simplest way of getting one's hands on the content you want, without giving in to the shackles of restriction in the way you plan to use the content.

 

[BaronMatrix]

Never heard of "Trusted Computing"? WINTEL
Intel is way ahead of AMD in limiting your "rights" on your PC. I'm getting sick of the AMD hate around here - I'm sorry you guys were stuck with Pentium 4's when I had an early 939, but that's no reason to spread hate, just 'cuz you got stuck with a dog.

I hate to pop your fanboi bubble but this is a first ... a new type of hardware DRM restriction in GPUs (introducted by AMD, not Intel or nvidia ...).

While all the hardware manufactures will undoubtedly eventually get into bed with the content producers, AMD is breaking new ground here.

Futhermore, "trusted" computing (now there is a misnomer!) is a DUAL use technology. You can (theoreticaly) use a TPM chip to secure your own personal data. Of course this is not its main purpose, its main purpose is to ensure a movie/song/game sold to you plays on ONLY your PC.

This crap that AMDTI is planning to pull is NOT a dual use technology. There is NO potential benefit to you ... just a stripping away of your rights to use your own hardware that you paid for.

The TPM is not for DRM that I have heard. It's so that IT depts can set passwords and encryption on HDDs. That way if a machine gets stolen, the HDD contents can't be accessed.

If implemented on a GPU, that is for DRM because the GPU has to transmit an HDCP signal to the HDCP monitor.

I can't really see why anyone would use their PC for BluRay or HD-DVD though when most monitors are a lot smaller than TVs.

 

[HotFoot]

I can't really see why anyone would use their PC for BluRay or HD-DVD though when most monitors are a lot smaller than TVs.

It's about convergence, which is a major market that Intel, MS, etc. are trying to push. Why buy a $30 DVD player when you can do the same job with a $600 computer + $70 software DVD player? This is the argument against it I suppose.

The idea is what's called a media centre PC. I'm sure you've heard about it and know what it is, so I'm not going to tell you what you ought to know already. The idea is that a single box can be the source for all media types. You have TV/DVR, video library (including DVD and .avi playback), music library (including CD and .mp3 playback), and internet radio streaming. It's also not a bad place to keep your digital photo album. The living room is a logical place to show your pictures of that last vacation. The possibilities are endless, which is the whole point of using a PC as the source... oh yeah... and some computer games translate well to the living room, like a flight simulator, etc.

Anyway, the idea that people are using computer monitors for HTPCs is kind of silly. I've got a 32" LCD TV working for me, and I like the current setup.

I wouldn't naturally say that it makes sense for everyone to use a PC as a media centre. A lot of people are going to be served better using a regular, cheap DVD player and TV tuner. However, in university I didn't have a TV, so I used my desktop in my dorm room for movies. Later on, I moved into a house, and one of the guys owned a TV. I formed a habbit of using a laptop as the media source whenever I wasn't watching regular TV. Then I moved in with my GF and we were back to having either a 14" TV or a 19" computer monitor, so we ended up watching movies and TV on the computer. It turned out that the laptop was doing nothing other than media centre tasks, so when the time came to replace the laptop, instead of buying another one, I just built a media centre PC (and we picked up an LCD TV). It seems that I'm a natural fit for the HTPC market because I was using a computer for my entertainment 7 years ago. This was my natural usage pattern even before computer hardware was being made for the task. I'm sure there are a lot out there who will consider the media centre to be very convenient now that computers are being designed for it.

Of course, all that could fail if content delivery or playback is needlessly encumbered by the media industry. This would be unfortunate for everyone, since I'm more likely to buy content if it's convenient for me (more $$ for the studios) as well as think of all those people buying extra computer hardware and software to put in their living rooms (more $$ for that industry). On the consumer side, we do it because we choose to (more choice for us). The failure of this movement, which seems to be what the studios are pushing for, makes no sense to me.

 

[pkellmey]

So basically, you're saying if we want a system that works, we should get the hardware now and just pirate the content we want because at least that will work?

AFAIK, all current hardware uses DRM for hi-def. In this case, if you don't use BLU-RAY or HD-DVD, you are most likely OK - except for specifically encrypted content. So we can't just break the DVD encryption like they currently do, but we buy all our stuff, right? From the player, to the HDMI cable, to the monitors - DRM is in every layer of Hi-Def in order to translate the encoding correctly.

 

[bfellow]

musicians can save money by actually not trashing hotels, dumping waste from their buses on unsuspecting victims (*cough* Dave Matthews), or having huge amount of groupies! :twisted: